Matthews is not gay. He's doing his job.

[blm]

When Matthews was pumping up Bush as a "man's man" he was doing that for VOTERS. He wants them to see Bush as head and shoulders above any Democratic challenger based on that image.

When Matthews pumps up Dean as a "man's man" he is doing it for VOTERS. He wants them to see Dean as head and shoulders above John Kerry.

Why? Because Kerry has the resume and the information to emasculate Bush if the American people are allowed to focus on just the two of them - Kerry and Bush.

Matthews is doing his job.

[UTUSN]

1. Haha, You Nail It Again. Tweezer is a FLUNKY n/t

[XanaDUer]

2. Yes, blm

Matthew is just doing what needs to be done to make sure someone with the chops to take down Bush (Kerry), gets the limelight.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Upfront]

9. Hmmmm

Nothing negative, distortion of record, what, who, when, where?

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Backlash Cometh]

4. Which makes Matthews a

Dweeb's Dweeb.

[dsc]

5. Yet another of your conspiracy theories

BTW I never did get a response to my debunking of the scrubbed piece about Hart. You wanted the world to think that someone went to huge lengths to protect Dean when the truth was that the paper went to huge lengths to make money.

[blm]

17. I didn't see your post, dsc.

I was out with my family. I promise to get to it. Please allow some of us to have lives. I don't berate anyone who does not reply to me. But, you seem to think it's appropriate to berate me for missing your post. Go figure.

[dsc]

20. You posted at least in that forum

and I think on that thread subsequent to that post. If you care me to prove that I will. I will grant you that you didn't post on that thread subsequent to me. So I do apologize for that. But my central point is that you posited a dark motive for that article to have been scrubbed WITHOUT SEARCHING THE ARCHIVES of the paper in question. You can't have searched the archives and not found that article. It is all but impossible. It took me one search. Yet you were ready to sell us some sort of conspiracy based on the fact you couldn't find what you hadn't searched the archives for. And yes you richly deserve to be called to task for that behavior.

[blm]

21. Why shouldn't I posit, dsc?

Why the hell shouldn't I say what I think?

Why the hell am I the only person who is told by you that I am not allowed to post conclusions that I come to quite honestly?

You have no explanation for why ABC's The Note piece on that same article is not available either, do you?

Rove gets stuff scrubbed all the time. Excuse me for not trusting any forces who do not want articles like the Hart interview easily accessible to the masses. Because it ISN'T easily accessible to the masses, now, is it?

[dsc]

22. because the web site

is crystal clear on where article over a certain age are (I recall 2 weeks). It took one, count it one, search of the place THEY DIRECT YOU TO LOOK, to find it. As to the Note piece I would presume that since the piece it was about is being sold they could no longer use it. You are entitled to your beliefs but if one it to take them at all seriously you should have at least looked WHERE THE PEOPLE TELL YOU TO LOOK.

[blm]

23. All I found was NOT FOUND.

And with The Note, it's the ENTIRE piece from that day that is no longer available.

You have NO qualms with any post that posits from YOUR point of view. Either you treat posters equally or get off my back. You are being unreasonable in your standard, even admonishing me for coming to my own valid conclusions.

byw...I really like how you nitpick me to avoid the fact that Gary Hart doesn not think Dean or Lieberman should be president at this time in history. That neither has the foreign policy chops necessary. MY conclusion is that you prefer changing THAT subject to cover up for Hart's warning that Dean doesn't HAVE a foreign policy, and that he is winging it with phone calls to those who do.

[dsc]

27. You put specific words in the man's mouth

Not only did I actually find the piece in question that you claimed had been scrubbed but another Dean poster found what you chose to post. What you chose to post didn't have the words you said he said. You do this all the damn time. You post what you interpret people as saying as what they said. Then you get pissy when you get called on it. It isn't my, or Dean's, or Russert's, or Rove's, or anyone's fault but yours that you hear only what you wish to hear. Time and again you do this. Time and again it is left to Dean supporters to track down what was really said and in a RosannaAnna moment have to say never mind. He did say, from what you chose to quote, that Dean lacks foreign policy expereince. BUT HE DOESN'T SAY, FROM WHAT YOU CHOSE TO QUOTE, that he should not be President. You will never convince me in a billion years that if those words were in that article you would not have quoted them. No way, no how.

As to the not found issue. If you go to their website and conduct one search they say, quite clearly that you have to look in the archives to find things over 2 weeks old. On the left hand side of the page is a link deceptively labelled archives. When you link there it takes you to a place to search the archives. One search there, with the info you gave me, yielded a description of the article and an offer to sell it to me for $1.95. I am broke, and have no credit card, or I would have bought it.

[blm]

29. Baloney... the direct quote from Hart

that I used was "Gary, what do I do?"

If YOU want to twist Hart's interview and his warning that Dean and Lieberman are lacking in crucial foreign policy chops to be president, well, that's YOUR political agenda. You don't WANT people to know that Hart feels both Dean and Lieberman are poor choices. YOUR conclusion that Hart is not warning against them is HIGHLY improbable in this case.

[dsc]

32. and when I asked for that link

I specificly asked for a link with him saying "Dean is not prepared to be President". Your response to that was to say I HAD SEEN AND COMMENTED ON IT. It was not to say YOU ARE SAYING SOMETHING I DIDN'T SAY. Only when another Dean supporter dug up what it was you quoted from the piece did you all of the sudden claim that I was putting words in your mouth. I was very, very specific in what I asked for. I clearly stated why I wanted it. I specificly stated that you had put those words into Hart's mouth. There is no way you didn't understand what I was asking for. Yet only when you got caught did you all of the sudden claim I was putting words in your mouth.
Even now you are changing the bar. You do this all the time. That is why I ask you for links.

[blm]

33. Twist away...now

you complain that I didn't complain enough about your post and didn't correct your assumption of a quote? SHEESH!!!

Sorry, but, that is TRULY bizarre reasoning.

[dsc]

36. Here is what I wrote

followed by what you wrote.

www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=108&topic_id=28938&mesg_id=29091&page=

I want that link where Hart said "that Dean should not be President". Put up here. No tales about computer woes, calling me net nanny, or anything else. You put very specific words in Gary Hart's mouth. You owe it to him, note him not me, to have a specific site where he says exactly that. If you can't produce that you owe Mr. Hart an apology. I intend to email him on this so if you don't have that link you had better admit it.

www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=108&topic_id=28938&mesg_id=29124&page=

Go ahead a lot of people want that link and it was available for awhile. It is no longer available. It was a May 7 Denver Post article that was linked here at DU throughout May and June. ABC's The Note also spoke about it at the time, but, oddly that perticular issue of the Note is also unavailable now, with no explanation.

Gary Hart's blog had it up as well as others, but, when you hit the link nothing is found.

Who's doing the scrubbing?

BTW...I'd like to see which Dean suopporters here who are very aware of the article will come forward and admit that it exists, because you certainly commented at the time that you were angered that Hart said what he did.


end of quotes.

Now, Just how is my interpretation of this bizarre? I ask for a quote by Gary Hart that "Dean should not be President".
Your response is that "I'd like to see which Dean suopporters here who are very aware of the article will come forward and admit that it exists, because you certainly commented at the time that you were angered that Hart said what he did."

My interpretation of that exchange was that a) there was an article which quoted Hart as saying "Dean should not be President" and b) that I had seen and commented on such an article in real time. I will admit that maybe you are saying b) to other Dean supporters and not necessarily me. But there is no way that you aren't saying a). Now go ahead and tell me that is a bizarre intermpretation.

[dsc]

53. I am waiting for an answer.

I would like to know why my interpretation is bizarre.

[Rooktoven]

47. What is the context of this quote?

I haven't heard it. Does it show up in Google cache?

[dsc]

50. Evidently the only way to get the article

is to pay for it. Go to the Rocky Mountain News and then to its archives. Search with Joe Lieberman, May 7 03 and may 8 03 and that a summary of that interview is the only thing which will appear. If you pay $1.95 you can get the whole thing.

[dsc]

30. Incidently

You are baldly false when you state that I "have no problems with any post that comes from my point of view". I have on several occasions taken Dean supporters to task on behalf our your candidate for things they have said. Either your memory is non existent or you are (word I can not say)ing.

Also, I ask you for links due to your record of virtually never having quotes right. Over and over and over again you have claimed that a person said x only to have the truth be y. I won't say your quotes have never checked out but I honestly can't recall even once when they did.

[blm]

34. My record according to Dean supporters

who manage to misrepresent just about everything about me as often as possible. Some complain that I posted those links too often, and others complain when I only refer to the post that I had previously posted "too often". Maybe you should get your complaints coordinated.

[Octafish]

40. "Conspiracy is code for 'Unspeakable Truth'" — Gore Vidal

Gee, dsc. If you don't think the media are part of the vast right-wing conspiracy, you've got a problem. How do you explain all the coverage given certain perspectives? How do you explain all the attention given the ex-governor ex-doctor ex-stockbroker?

Regarding what blm has done to fight the BFEE: You must not have read any of blm's threads detailing the connections between the Bush Organized Crime Family and the Rev Sun Myung Moon's global criminal empire. On most threads detailing the workings of the BFEE posted on DU over the past two years, blm brings solid information and good links and leads. While she brings up things that aren't always pleasant to consider, she never bashes another DUer or candidate.

Since you brought it up, where were you when it comes to spilling the beans on the BFEE? Doesn't the Dean Defense Force care about anything other than what John Kerry thinks?

[dsc]

52. Why don't I believe this article was scrubbed?

Gee Octafish, maybe because I found it in less than 10 minutes of searching. yeah some fucking conspiracy. A computer novice using Webtv and msn search unraveled it in 10 minutes. Such a plot.

[AP]

6. Matthews is trying to create a conservative environment in which

the Republicans will win. Everyone, if you want to know what Rove is doing, study American history 1888-1915. Republicans used discussion of masculinity as a mode for describing the world in order to get America to pursue conservative, business-friendly, imperialistic political projects.

GE/NBC/Microsoft would love nothing more than the 2004 election to be a debate over who is more masculine. If your job is to help conservatives win elections, then Matthews is doing his job.

[bearfartinthewoods]

15. if this is true, id tweety has gone over to the dark side, why?

given his history, it's an astounding transition. why did it happen?

i mean, it's not like dennis miller. tweety worked for us. wasn't he a LA FOR TIP O'NEIL?

i just don't get it.

[AP]

16. Where have you been. Tweety has been whoring for years.

They do it for money and for ratings (yes, apparently Tweety's ratings went up when he started bashing Clinton over Lewinsky -- cable TV news audiences...who can explain them). And then there's the story about Russert -- GE gave him a huge contract because he would reliably hurt Dems and help Republicans.

[UTUSN]

24. Why? Here' My Theory (re-post)

Besides being unrelenting on CLINTON throughout the FAKE impeachment, including badgering Kathleen WILLEY about naming the name of the "jogger" & naming the WRONG name himself when she wouldn't, thus triggering a gun incident on the part of Pat BUCHANAN's mentally disabled brother--------what is even MORE heinous is his CONSTANT RIDICULE of GORE throughout Campaign 2000, merciless, dirty, and heinous.

When he started on t.v., his mentor/predecessor G.E.RUSSERT tutored him on "reaching out" BEYOND his normal Dem world. G.E. RUSSERT had already made the leap into cozying to LIMBOsevic and other wingnuts, and the byword is that cable belongs to the wingnuts, that to get ratings ya gotta go wingnut. So there's THAT.

Beyond that, Tweezer enjoys being "smart". He has said many times that he can "PLAY Right and PLAY Left" and drive the opposite side nuts. He thinks this is a symptom of his "intelligence." But even beyond THIS superficial kind of smartness, here's another peel of the onion layers (re-post from the other thread):

1) He was a political staffer/flunky/operative in the hothouse atmosphere of D.C., where staffers get their own status from the status of THE BOSS. He's got a FLUNKY mindset-----whoever WINS, is SUCCESSFUL is literally ON TOP.

2) When the RAYGUN string-pullers RAN OVER the Dems (especially MATTHEWS's direct bosses) and the Dems rolled over like they're doing now for Shrub's string-pullers, MATTHEWS admired the "winner" RAYGUN.

3) The flaw in this argument is that he didn't go ga-ga over CLINTON when CLINTON won at first. Perhaps it was the early screw-ups. Perhaps it was that MATTHEWS was turned down for press secretary. Perhaps he needs MORE glamor and money to be flunky over. Perhaps he had already gone too far down the road of being filmed on long walks with Nancy RAYGUN.

4) He's got the leftovers of ex-Liberal angst: He was anti-military, so now he's on the outside of the veterans' world, adrift in the wingnut world that supposedly glorifies military wingnutism. Ever known a workplace where an underling staffer is who KNOWS EVERYTHING, the nuts and bolts?-------the boss is AT THE MERCY of the staffer. MATTHEWS goes ga-ga over "manly" things because he opted out of the "manly" choices long ago and can only go by what others describe to him.

5) And one more thing: An old tradition in journalism is to milk heartwarming stories about underdogs beating long odds. Ever notice that MATTHEWS ****NEVER**** sides with the underdog. Whoever's got the most money, sex appeal, glamor, buzz----is who MATTHEWS will be flogging away for. Since he doesn't come from a journalism background, he doesn't even PRETEND. A good Dem, or even EX-Lib, might have at least gone for the RFK offspring of Cesar CHAVEZ in California---------don't be RIDICULOUS, he's for Ahhhnuld.

What doesn't fit is how MATTHEWS, from an ethnic Catholic background with five brothers (or totalling 5?), rough and tumble, DIDN'T do the usual ethnic military thing. He's all TALK, no action.

[blm]

26. And Matthews alone had 17% of the bad stories on Gore in 2000.

That shows he was on a MISSION to get Bush elected.

He'll be on a MISSION to keep Bush in his stolen office.

[UTUSN]

41. Have I Told You Lately That I Love You n/t

[not systems]

31. I've noticed this trend

With Arnold the H2 and Bush the war hero - brush mover.

The trend is the exultation of the masculine in
our culture. It seems to be part of the fascist
mind set griping the US. It is interesting that
there is a historical pattern here. Kind of like
the youth corp in Triumph of the Will. Maybe this
has always been the point of the cowboy images
and sports language in political reporting -
the creation of a construct based on primitive
reactions to images and impressions of power.

Not a ground breaking thought but one that I
try to filter the media through at times.

[roughsatori]

7. Thank you for the simple obvious truth

Some here would prefer to claim Mathews' behavior is a result of his sexual desire and "taunt" that he is "gay.". Calling someone "gay" probably worked for them in high-school so they continue the behavior on DU.

edited to add: If you had left the Kerry comments out of your post it would have helped focus the discussion on reasons for Mathew's behavior as a debunking of many of yesterday's "Mathew's is gay" posts.

[blm]

19. Except that the Kerry part explains Matthews' pumping

of Dean with the real goal to protect Bush.

Mediawhores like Fineman and Matthews will protect Bush from the head to head matchup with Kerry, because Kerry's team is building a comprehensive case against Bush on 9-11 and Iraq with evidence that dates back to BCCI and IranContra through the Hart-Rudman report and recent policies witnessed by Rand Beers.

Gary Hart, Rand Beers and Gen. William Perry have been working with Kerry to build this case. Don't forget Kerry was a prosecutor, and a topnotch investigator.

[poskonig]

8. The mothership awaits you.

Kerry is losing because of his cowardice on Iraq, not because of Tweety, Mr. Potatohead, or any other media loser.

[Upfront]

11. Correct

Tweety played Kerry like a fiddle. Got him to rip Dean and at the same time look like waffle king.

[poskonig]

13. You mean Potatohead (Russert), right?

I've haven't seen Kerry on Tweety in a while.

[bearfartinthewoods]

18. what interview were you watching?

hmmm.you think you saw Kerry attacking Dean on Tweety's show but
in actuality, it was meet the press and Kerry went out of his way to duck timmy's, Dean attack softballs.

wow...you're batting 0 for 0.....

[FlaGranny]

10. What we need around here is

fewer men's men and more real men. You know, the kind who are intelligent, responsible, empathetic, and can actually be useful. I don't know what O'Reilly THINKS he's trying to get across, but whatever it is, it is pure crap. The only man muscle that impresses me is the one between the ears. Bush is lacking that muscle. Dean is obviously not (and I would say the same about most of the Democratic candidates, not only Dean).

Edit: By "around here" I don't mean DU - I'm talking about the country.

[Cocoa]

12. even on Tweety's terms, he's wrong

at the superficial level that talks about "manliness" Kerry would come out on top.

Seeing his appearance on MTP yesterday, it struck me how strong he is at the superficial level. I don't think anyone communicates as forcefully as he does, and that includes Sharpton. Kerry's voice seemed to fill the studio.

Tweety revealed how calculating he is by talking about Dean's height. He realized that that was a weak point in his propaganda, that people out there would be thinking "but he's short" so he had to address it, if only to say "his height won't matter."

[Nederland]

25. LOL

He wants them to see Dean as head and shoulders above John Kerry.

That's a visual image that simply doesn't compute in my brain. All I can picture is Kerry patting little Dean's head.

[meow2u3]

28. But it's a whole lot of fun

to discredit him by labeling him as gay :evilgrin:

[oasis]

35. Kerry will showcase his commanding presence this coming week.

If Tweety ignores or subtlely derides him, I'll buy into Blm's theory and kick this thread back to page one.

[oasis]

37. kick for further examination

[Isome]

38. Hmmm...

I still think he's gay. He's in denial of course, but definitely gay. There are other ways to portray a candidate as leading in the polls or a strong leader, besides fawning over their physical attributes. That he chooses to gush over the candidates that appeal to him, like a teenaged girl at a sleepover with her equally hormone-driven peers, isn't the tactic of man doing his job with gusto, it's a sign of a closeted homosexual.

[stickdog]

39. Knob job.

BTW, what is your job here?

[Octafish]

42. blm posts useful information on the BFEE...

... as much as any DUer. Too bad you're too busy slamming anybody who doesn't think Dean's shit doesn't stink to think for yourself. It does and that's the way it is.

BTW: Unlike blm, I have a difficult time remembering when you contributed anything other than a Kerry bash. Why is that? Here's a reminder from the Old DU:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=3052&forum=DCForumID70&archive=yes

[JohnKleeb]

44. found it interesting that one of our socialist like people JanMichael

defended Kerry. Then again I am not suprised, I am nearly that and I defend Kerry although hes not my candiate.

[stickdog]

45. Whoo hoo, that was a classic!

Boy, I forgot how mad Kerry and his supporters made me with his "Get over it" comment and their defenses of it.

Thanks for reminding me.

BTW, I'm the Wellstone guy.

And the Chalabi guy.

And the Flight 93 guy.

I really like both you and blm, but I can't see why you aren't onboard with at least Howard Dean's strategy for reaching new voters, fund raising and generating a real grassroots involvement in a Democratic Presidential campaign.

Don't you think 10 million people giving $20 each is the most hopeful campaign model for the future of our Party? I see why the establishment fears this, but why do y'all?

[Octafish]

49. You're welcome, stickdog. Yeh! We go waaay back!

That's quite a bit that I know I know and remember I remember. Your work on DU looking under the rock that's the BFEE is much appreciated.

My thing with Dean is he's never shown the colors of a Liberal New Deal Democrat. He's talked about being from the Democratic Wing of the Democratic Party, but in the body of his work as governor, I haven't seen it.

Please, allow me to acknowledge the wonderful things Dean has accomplished in particular areas, like getting children covered by state health insurance — but, that largely was through Federal programs like Medicaid. He's also done a lot to preserve the natural splendor of Vermont — but with 620,000 people total, almost all of them of one ethnicity, that can't be too hard.

And I understand his fire-and-rhetoric charisma. Then again, I don't know everything. And, unfortunately, the more I learn, the more I realize there is that I don't know.

Going by the numbers of supporters Dean has, another important thing I don't know about is what his supporters see. There sure are a lot of you. And many longtime DUers, people who I consider DU Friends. Many who no longer talk to me because I write down my thoughts about Dean.

stickdog and Dean's DU supporters are a large and intelligent community of dedicated Democrats. Seriously, I respect most of you all. There are a couple posters who crossed the line here and there — but hey, who’s perfect? They’re not my problem, but what I’ve said things in an unfriendly way, when sufficiently ticked, is.

Good luck to you and Dean. We all want to get rid of the Crooked Little Turd from Crawford.

[NewJerseyDem]

43. Matthews isn't conservative

He is a former high level staffer to Tip O'Neil. I hardly think that Tip O'Neil would have a right winger on his staff. I also doubt that Matthews would work so hard to keep Bush in office even if he was a republican. It seems unlikely that he would develop this big scheme so that Dean would win the nomination. Also, he wouldn't be helping Bush because nobody watches his show!

[UTUSN]

46. Haha - Nobody WATCHES

SNL -

"For the --------FIFTY ---------people who WATCH this show......"

[oasis]

48. Bernard Goldberg and Michael Savage were so called liberals

until the almighty dollar began to speak to them.

[oasis]

51. Countdown: After Kerry strides across the flight deck of the USS Yorktown

Tweety will be chirping a different tune.

[West Coast Democrat]

54. If I were Dean, I wouldn't want Tweety calling me a "man's man"

That's how he describes Bush*, as he salivates on air at his description of the "Marlboro Man." Tweety was so darn impressed with AWOL's plane-landing PR blitz, he was foaming at the mouth for days.

Now, for Dean, having Tweety on your side is nothing to brag about. Everyone knows that Tweety is a mega-mediawhore.