Take the VALUES rug from under the Republicans

[Tweed]

Look, Gore lost, Kerry lost and we lost conservative Senators in southern conservative states. It's clear what we are doing has to be improved. Going more to the right ain't going to do it.

The biggest reason why we lost is evangelicals. The way to get some of their votes is to talk more about how we are going to help out the lower classes which they tend to be in living in rural areas that don't have massive economies. Yes, the ones who believe that abortion and gay marriage trump all will not vote for us. The ones who attend church but aren't so strong on those ideas will pick up on a candidate who believes in raising the minimum wage and making it easier for families to get by. We have to say we are going to help the lower classes in society. Here's where John Kerry failed on this.

It didn't help that his wife has tons of money and I heard snide comments about Kerry being a champion for the poor while being so wealthy. I think the most important part is that Kerry would say vague things like, "We are going to help the middle class and the people who aren't as well off". I guess those words are taboo now. Those two factors worked against him IMO. We need populist candidates who promises to work for the little guy and stretches that out. Meat and potato issues are crucial.

Get candidates to talk about the words of Jesus. I don't care if you are an atheist, you have to realize that Jesus had good things to say. Jesus was liberal as hell. Quote passages that talk about how Jesus wanted us to help the poor and avoid war. Challenge Republicans, point out that you are more of a Christian because you quote from the New Testament (the words of Jesus) instead of the Old Testament. Turn their religion on their head. Jesus talked about social justice and peace, not war and social Darwinism. Fundamentalists used to be huge Democrats because of Darwinism actually. William Jennings Byran, prosecutor in the Scopes Monkey trial, four time Presidential candidate on the Democratic ticket or Socialist ticket. He augured against Darwinism because of social Darwinism and the belief that man has to claw to survive.

For those of you who think I'm crazy, but heed this. Karl Rove's strategy of attacking your opponent on their best strength works. We lost, he won. Let's counter attack by getting their strongest base. We won't get them all and some of you may be saying "We don't need any evangelical votes", but we need all the votes we can get and if they are voting for us because our party is following the words of Jesus (as they were meant to be displayed) and championing the poor, they aren't the evangelicals we know today.

[Nicholas_J]

1. What values

Republican politicians, and most of their supporters are moral reprobates, who would have been among the Pharisees and Scribes heartily condemned by Jesus. If anything thing smacks of the anit-Christian, it is the faith of Freepers and others who supported Bush.

Their values may be conservative values, but they are completely bereft of anything remotely related to Christianity.

They have basically chosen some of the most obscure and rarely cited sins in the bible, and turned them into the entire content of their perverted image of Christianity.

They are most surely among those who Christ was referring to when he stated that 'he never knew them:" on the day of Judgement.

You can find only an handful of paragraphs in the Bible that discuss homosexuality and fewer that discuss abortion.Christ NEVER mentioned them at all. It was as common a procedure then as it is now. Yet they ignore the constant calls to social justice. mercy, good works, and helping the poor and less fortunate.

They are also among those who Christ spoke about when discussing flaunting your values and piety in public. They all ready hacve their reward. THhey will not have it in heaven.

They ceainly have totally forgotten the statement about "removing the log fron their own eyes, before attemptoing to take the speck out of someone elses.

They also most closely seem to be followers of the false Christ's that Christ himself warned about.

The person who said that with Bush , she knows that God is in the White House was a most blasphemous statement. Bush's statement of thanks to her was an even worse blasphemy. The suggestion that God chose George Bush is the most serious blasphemy of all. His failure to support social programs that help the poor is a most serious sin on his part. And theirs.

If anything they are more worshippoers of the anti-Christ rather than Christ, as they have forgotten the bulk of the words of Christ, and have focused on words of those who followed him. They have raised Paul above Christ himself.

They have turned the sermon on the mount from "Bleesed are the poor' To blessed are those who forget the poor.

The fact is that those who claimed to be voting on their values have the most shallow and un Christian values of all who voted.

What is important now is to seek out and discover every Republicans hidden corruptions, and make them public, like Bill Brennetts gambling, or even more , Ryans sex club scandals. I know one thing about Republicans, as I knew many of them who were presidents and high level executives. They are just as likely to exist in Congress. Most of them were involved in rather kinky stuff. I remember at one place I worked for, a number of the Republican executives were frequently invoved in S&M clubs and stuff like that. It seemed to revolve around some perverse desire to be punished for their behavior. I used to find it very amusing.

I think that the best things dremocrats could do would be to fund detectives to seek out this type of behavior in Congress, and clear it out a bit when exposing them. Given the number of Republicans in Congress, on average, I would estimayte that at least twenty to 30 of them have some really perversse dirt under their nails, and even dirtier skeletons in tyheir closets. It is time to pull Clinton on them

Lots of Congressmen can keep this kind of stuff hidden for years, as they are less in the public eye as a President. If we want to gain back the senate and house, we can easily pick states with Democrats as Governors, and shame some of these guys into resigning. That way the governor picks the replacement.

[ComerPerro]

4. yes, however

there are quite a few people who voted Bush because they think that Bush represents their values. We need to expose the Rethugs as the murderous, lying, sleazy hypocrites they are. Lets pull the rug right out from under them.

[Nicholas_J]

47. Absolutely

There are more than likely a large number of elected Republicans who thump bibles and values who have pulled many Bill O'Reilly's telephone calls, and Rush Limbaugh dope schemes or worse in the past. There are just as likely to be many Jim Bakkers defining their values for them from their small town pulpits. I beelive that we should really get togetther an organization as large and conmrehensive as MoveOn.org in order to expose their lack of values. In fact, this might be the direction thatMoveOn takes in the next 4 years. Since they made values an issue in this election, we should expose every little lack of values that those who inspire them lack. And not on the moral highroad of condemning the bombing of children in Iraq. Lets find them in hotel rooms with student clerks. Lets uncover their Monica Lewinski's and wives who are having affairs, and every other pecadilloe that at least a fair percentage of them are involved with. It would only take exposing a small percentage of them to have them removed from the house or senate in shame. Since violation of economic rules, such as campign fund raising violations and such rarely get more than a slap on the wrist for a republican but sanctions for a democrayt, lets find where they make their beds and who theyt are in them with. Since repukes and freepers have no regard for the social justice or "love your neighbor " aspects of their" "Christisn Value Systyem" lets find who they were in that bed with before they make it. Ryans crime wasto make the suggestion of going to a sex club with his wife. That was enough to unseat him. We would need very little to destroy a fair percentage of congressional careers. Let us form our own "Swift Boat Veterans" to track s\down John O'Neil or other Right Wing moralizers and find anything in which they violate their own decried morality. Let us start now and let us not let up.

[Nicholas_J]

58. You forget

The valuse that they espouse have nothing to do with helping they care not about murder.

Listen, they justify the deaths and maiming of over 100,000 Iraqi's now who have had nothing to do with anything related to terrorism. They justify and barely give Tom DeLay a slap on the wrist for setting up an organization for Orphansvand diverting the money to Republican campaigns. The only values that they ascribve to haveto do with discrimnating against gays, and against abortion. Thheir values are based on the idea orf protecting the unborn child, but once they have slipped out of the birt canal, fuck them


No you miss the point, they can murder all they want, they can starve living children all they want, they can rob candy from babies to give to the rich. That has not effect on them. Find and expose thier congressman having a homosexual fling on the side, and they will abandon and comdemn that congressman. Look at Ryan. He merely SUGGESTS to his wife that they go to a sex club. It is something that actually NEVER occured. He had to resign for that alone. He could have been stealing finds from program,s that were providing Aids drugs to infants who were born to HIV positive parents, and he would have been dslapped on the wrist. He chould have evidence that Bush knew absolutely that Saddam was no threat to the U.S. and covered it up, and he would have been cheered. Find that he is diddling a cute young 23 year old congressional aide when he goes away from town on fact finding missions, and they will castrate the guy. In order to get the conservatives that they have voted into office, we cant find them guilty of breaking OUR sense of values, but they must be exposed violating the values that the right wing conservative religious beleive that they share with THEM. That is how we win. Lets not worry about defining te democratic party. Lets show the conservatives in muiddle america that their beleoved bible thumping representatives are breaking the very values they hold dear.

[Mad_Dem_X]

49. I completely agree!

We need to expose them for the hypocrites they are...they are exactly the opposite of the kind of person Jesus was.

[Nicholas_J]

59. Since they have absolutely no real values

they do not beleive in 99 percent of the bible, which largely consists of social justice. They beleive all of the paganistic elements that got added into the bible. Teaching creationism is more important than healing dying children. Abusing a small percentage of the population that is homosexual is far more important than helping the poor. In fact, helping the poor is not a part of their value system at all. They are more concerend about the private behavior of others than they are about the vastly larger content of the bible that commands social justice. They claim to beleive the bible, but they have distorted it beyoond recognition. They are completely unaware that most gays will get into their own heaven while they will be burning in the hell they so frequently consign others to.

In an odd way, they are far more perverted as it would be described in biblical terms than most gays. They violate tens times as many biblical injunctions than any gay does for being gay.

[PretzelWarrior]

2. I'll do you one better. Hire a bunch of sleazy Private INvestigators

and do a 24/7 trail on House leaders, Senate leaders, Bush and all his cabinet and aids, the GOP higher-ups...the more outspoken Republican-leaning or outright Republican religious leaders.

Have a website called American Values Rap SHeet. Just keep pointing out the worst of the worst on these people and point out how thin is the veil of respectability.

It could fuse the Media's love of scandal with our own interests for shining the floodlight of disclosure on their hypocrisy at a personal level.

At the same time...show the voting records of all these bastards for any Jesus-oriented bill comes to the floor such as money for impoverished single parents, help for AIDS around the world, etc. etc.

[ComerPerro]

5. Oh ... ... ... My ... ... ... God

That is such an outstanding idea.

Wow...

Damn...

[Tweed]

9. I nominate you for Karl Rove of the Democrats

And I mean that in the best way possible.

[Cat Atomic]

12. Why stop at politicians?

Fundamentalist leaders right down to the local level would be worthy subjects as well.

Demoralize the fundamentalists as a group. Loosen their loyalties to one another. You'll never pry them from their militant brand of Christianity, but you might be able to make them doubt their fellow-wackos.

[Touchdown]

42. Also point out that most of them recieve money from the Moonies

Sun Yung Moon is deeply involved in funding and suporting the religious right. He's a HERETIC. He annointed himself the resurrected messiah. Why Stan Matunaka didn't use this against Marilynn Must-go, or any Dem against any "stealth candidate" is beyond me. When Christians find out how deep Moon's organization is involved in teh Religious right, they will be shocked at the embrace of such a heretic, and fraud.

Here's a taste...

[Jeff in Cincinnati]

55. Absolutely...

I think we need a liberal/religious think tank that will pound home the message that the Republican Party is financially beholden to a foreigner who has proclaimed himself to be Christ. That won't play in Peoria. That won't play in Des Moines. That won't play in Kansas City.

Know and good websites with background information?

On Edit - Answered my own question:

http://www.freedomofmind.com/stevehassan/presskit/articles/parry1.htm

[lynintenn]

40. I think it is a great idea

turn the tables on thier morality war

[cmf]

45. Let's do both

We'll out-moralize them, and show them for what they really are.

[Maiden England]

3. excellent post, I was mulling over the same idea today

we need to take back the ownership of the moral imperative.

[AngryLizard]

8. It's not going to happen

1. You can't reason with the evangelical Christian right. I know, because I used to be one, and I'm not anymore because you can't reason with them. You might as well try to reason with Al Qaeda, seriously. Liberals are branded with the 666 in the middle of their foreheads, and there's no way we can turn that around in 4 years.

2. We have to accept that our morals are not THEIR morals. In their world, gay relationships are evil, in ours, how can any love be so bad? In their world, abortion is evil, in ours women should have the right to choose. They see Iraq as a holy war, whereas we see it as a cemetary. There is no middle ground.

This isn't the way. We can't win playing on their field, because we're going to lose members of our own team. We have to figure how to work AROUND them, or at least find a way to manipulate them.

We need a Democratic Gingrich, and we need one now.

[Tweed]

10. There's a difference between Methodists and Pentecostal Churches

You have to go for moderate Christians of course and by moderate I mean more inclined to the social justice and service part of their religion.

[AngryLizard]

14. Right, but moderate Christians aren't the ones who

put Bush back in the White House. And, for the most part, especially if you're talking about the middle of the country but even if you're not, most of the stuff we support and take for granted is too extreme for them. See: Why Bush won 18% of the black vote because of black churchgoers.

[regnaD kciN]

30. And, believe it or not, there are liberal evangelicals...

...Jim Wallis of Sojourners (www.sojo.net) is a member of the Plymouth Brethren, one of the most fundie-seeming denominations out there.

There are the "comfortable" fundies that seem to believe that "Jesus saved me, and I must respond by doing whatever I want while cracking down on Those Evil Awful People Over There," while another group of fundies believe that "Jesus saved me, and I must respond by giving my all to help 'the least among us'."

[Merlin]

16. It has to happen.

"Liberals are branded with the 666 in the middle of their foreheads, and there's no way we can turn that around in 4 years."

That's true. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. It MUST be done. So it's going to take more than 4 years. That's our fault for letting it go this long without recognizing what to do.

The "666" comes primarily from the abortion issue. That's going to disappear within a year. We will then be free to redefine what a "liberal" is.

[AngryLizard]

18. No, the 666 comes primarily from the gay issue

Don't kid yourself. Abortion has been around for quite some time, but we've never seen an organized reaction to it quite like this. It's because of the gay marriage issue, which is BEYOND the pale as far as the christian right is concerned - this is one of those things that even some moderate religions will jump in on. It's because of the gay thing, and it's because of the war thing. There are a lot of evangelicals out there that see Iraq and Al Qaeda not just as a war against terrorists, but as a religious conflict.

[Merlin]

20. Gay marriage is a one-time deal. It's already over.

It's been defeated in every state. If Kerry had been more outspoken and emphatic in his opposition to it--instead of trying to straddle--he might have been able to get it off his back.

But abortion is what sustains the right wing's romance with fundamentalist Christians. Abortion is what turned the populist, Democratic farm belt into Republican voters.

Most thinking fundies had genuine reservations about Bush this time, because his actions are so antithetical to Jesus' teachings. But when push came to shove, abortion ruled the day.

We are "baby killers" in the minds of red state evangelicals.

[yardwork]

21. I'm not willing to give up the right of choice and I certainly am not

going to turn my back on my many GLBT friends.

[AngryLizard]

24. Gay marriage isn't over

It's just going to take a little while. And I don't think civil unions are off the table.

I've joked to my friends (I'm black, btw) that gay people are the new black people, except black people haven't stopped being black people, yet. This is the same shit we saw duing the civil rights movement. And before that, the same shit we saw in the suffragist movement. It moves slowly, it suffers a backlash, and then it builds up speed until it becomes a given.

[flygal]

27. Right! Give it time to sink in.

We'll be better prepared next time. And hopefully the youth vote won't let us down in 06 and 08!!

[Merlin]

32. Hopefully the next pope will be a jew. But not very godam likely.

This is a hardball world, flygal. Dreamers don't call the shots. And you are dreaming if you think some magic bullet like the "youth vote" is going to mobilize and turn out for the first time in our history for something as insignificant as gay marriage. Hell, they didn't even do it in '68 and '72 when their asses were on the line. Ain't gonna happen.

[Merlin]

31. Gay marriage is dead as a fucking doornail. Forever. Period.

Wake up and pay attention.

You can go on a godam crusade for something as incidental and anemic in terms of its impact on society as gay marriage. But don't you dare think you're going to take my Democratic party along with you. From here on out, you're on your own.

[Merlin]

35. You don't have to turn your back on anybody.

And you don't have to give up your right of choice. Do whatever you like personally in support of these issues.

But they are no longer the baggage of the Democratic Party. The time has come for us to jettison both of them.

Gay marriage is a pointless, meaningless, silly, incidental distraction from our agenda. Gay couples that can't be satisfied with civil unions (which we must continue to defend, and which many states will defend) will have to go out and gain the support of a majority of the public before we should ever touch this issue.

Kerry's failure was in not asserting continuously and boldly that he was opposed to gay marriage, despite his support from civil unions. The red staters never got that distinction, because Kerry deliberately straddled it.

As far as abortion "rights" go, it's now up to the women's movement to gain back public support. The frittered it away, and it's not our party's job to keep hauling this water any longer.

[yardwork]

19. I agree with you because I grew up among them and I know some now

and they are beyond reasoning. Simply beyond reasoning.

We have to hit them where it hurts. I have a separate thread where I rhetorically ask what would happen if the right-wing fundies got everything they are asking for. What good would it do them?

We know that prayer in schools isn't going to solve the country's problems, but I think that this basic fact has to be proven to the fundies and I think maybe they are going to prove it to themselves whether we like or not.

I really like the idea of bringing down as many of their leaders as possible. Excellent idea.

[Starlight]

34. But we need to do it on tv...

Seriously, many of these people are addicted to tv & believe virtually anything they see there. I think the way to reach them is with "reality tv" that really *is* reality. We need to overwhelm them with proof of the huge amounts of scandal & corruption we know exists. Not just talk & documents, but private investigators & hidden camera footage right there on their tvs.

[greyfox]

36. I was one of the preachers

and, as a young toad (hahah) I gave em all hell... but when I became a man i.e. spiritually speaking if I may, I stopped preaching AT people and woke up to find that love will build that bridge and make things better...FOR ME as well.

I am a Christian with Democrat upbringing and leaning, but I have NEVER

(1)been FOR gay lifestyle and marriage

(2)been for killing babies

(3) taking prayer out of schools

(4) shunning "other" faiths as having no validity

and that's just four I will mention here. It really gets OLD hearing that LIBERALS/DEMOCRATS have no value system with regards to the Bible. Just taint true.

That said: (see 1-4 above)

(1) I consider it is not MY business or concern until I am asked or until it strikes my home (yes, strikes... it would be hurtful for our family, sorry, BUT I would make it through with compassion and not yelling Bible verses!)

(2) Abortion is abortion is a medical thing (or should be if performed). Murder? Not so sure any more, BUT I know I feel a woman should have a right to make her own INFORMED decision - including the medical, physical AND spiritual (because it does enter in). I would hate to know the government would say I MUST have a vasectomy!!! LOL

(3) I am unshakable on that. I was raised doing it and love seeing it done. Those who do not want to participate, just sit there.

(4) Until we face Jesus in glory (as I believe) or Allah, or Mohamed or Ping Tong Poot <?>, we only have one thing to go on... FAITH! Your faith is as good as mine. I love you.

[dorktv]

6. Every Democratic Christian should remember that

they need to study the bible with these Christians. And only go with the new testament. Sermon on the Mount is always a good place to start.

[Tweed]

25. Excatly, also start wearing t-shirts that say "Thou Shall Not Kill"

and stuff like that. They wear their stuff, we need to start wearing ours.

[Frangible]

7. Agreed

Jesus is the ultimate liberal. We need to beat that into their heads. Bush was able to use pure hatred to motivate the christian voter base this election, but I think we need to do the same with compassion. What would Jesus do, indeed?

[AngryLizard]

11. Yeah, and the instant you start talking about

how Jesus said that we should all love one another, you're going to lose them. THEY DON'T WANT DIFFERENT INTERPRETATIONS OTHER THAN THE ONES THEY'VE ALREADY BEEN TAUGHT. This is why they don't believe in evolution, even though every person on the face of this planet is a product of evolution. They have too much invested socially, politically, economically, and spiritually to change their minds. You guys keep talking like this is something that can be dealt with on a rational basise, but evangelical christianity doesn't have a rational basis.

Seriously, we need to find a way to work around them -- not ignore them like we did this time, but conciously work around them. We need to recognize and acknowledge the inconsistent hobglobins in their minds and figure out a way to work around them.

[Merlin]

17. Wrong. We just have to lose abortion and not fear saying "Jesus"

Those are the two keys.

Abortion has turned Democrats into "Baby Killers!" in the minds of most people in the red states. When Roe is overturned next year, we will finally be free of this horrific, cursed issue we've been carrying on our backs for a generation. It will be an opportunity to redefine us in the minds of the red staters.

The other problem is that we are afraid to use the name of Jesus in our political appeals because we think it implies that we are religious in the sense of the fundies and evangelicals whose views we detest. But invoking the words and views and injunctions of Jesus need not be an endorsement of religion at all. If we treat him as one of the three great philosophers in history (Budda, Confusious and Jesus), we can--and must--steal him back from the right wing.

[AngryLizard]

22. You don't seriously think

that if Roe v. Wade is overturned next year then that will be all she wrote? The left isn't going to let that one go quietly by any means, which means that we're still going to be defined by it.

And we can't treat Jesus like he's just another philosopher -- they'll be insulted by that. He's GOD, not some "heathen on a mountaintop". I know this sounds extreme, but this is how they think - they cling deeply to their beliefs by any means necessary. Do you think that would work with a muslim, comparing Allah to Confucious?

Again I say: You cannot hope to short circuit the religious right by attempting to be rational. This is a war of attrition. The only way to beat them is to go around them, and slowly re-define what is fair and just. Learn from the civil rights movement.

[Merlin]

33. You didn't get what I said.

Listen up.

The left can scream and holler all it wants when Roe v Wade goes south. It won't matter one bit. Abortion decisions will then devolve to the states, and every state in the union except MA, NY, NJ, CA and maybe MD and WA will immediately vote to prohibit it. But because of its availability in those states, the problem will simply be reduced to how does a pregnant lady who wants an abortion get to one of the states where it's legal. Back alley butchery will not be like it used to be because most abortions will still be legal.

Meanwhile the Democratic Party will NOT FIND IT NECESSARY ANY LONGER to defend the indefensible: the wanton destruction of nascent living fetuses in the name of "Choice." That will REMOVE the issue from the party's platform.

(I say it's "indefensible" not as a judgment on the practice. I personally could care less, not believing a fetus is a human until it is viable. But "indefensible" in the sense that it can never be debated without demagoguery on the right, and for the vast majority of the sheeple, the demagoguery will win every single time. Example: Liberals are known as "baby killers" in the red states.)

As for your continued mantra about not being rational in our appeal, who's trying to be rational? I want our appeals to be emotional as hell, by using the terminology of Jesus and invoking his name. We need not proclaim him to be God, but merely invoke his teachings in support of our agenda.

I'm saying that--in terms of moral values and Jesus--we must do what Clinton did to the Republican agenda in the '90s: coopt it. We must adopt much of the language of the believers. Not all of it. We don't have to profess FAITH and RELIGION. We do have to profess SOCIAL JUSTICE, CARING for the LEAST AMONG US, HEALING the SICK, SUSTAINING the AGED, DISDAIN for the RICH. HELP for the POOR. WORKING to make the WORLD a BETTER PLACE. Jesus' injunctions and sayings can be used every step of the way.

There are two reasons I propose we begin to invoke Jesus relentlessly in support of the liberal agenda. First, it's legitimate. Jesus' philosophy is the underpinning of the Democratic Party philosophy. Second, because it WILL win back the rural and farm communities of the midwest who were ALWAYS Democrats before the abortion issue came along.

In short, we CAN bring back the midwest by losing abortion and by adding the vernacular of the populist, social justice preachings of Jesus.

[Tweed]

38. This is why I don't think abortion will be outlawed

[meow2u3]

43. Tie the abortion issue with other life issues

I'll do you one better. I say we lose abortion by tying it with the death penalty, unjust war, terrorism, economic and social justice, and children's health care, and offer them up as a consistent-life package deal. Then we can accuse them of being baby killers if they refuse to accept the entire consistent-life package. "If you're not pro-life across the board, you can't claim to be pro-life without being a lying hypocrite"!

IN other words, we have to broaden the definition of "pro-life."

[FlaGranny]

50. Right you are.

As I said, I'm not religious. I don't believe in churches or organized religions. But I think I'm going to get me some T-shirts with Jesus's quotes on them. Let them attack those!!!

[Only Me]

13. I agree but I see just a little

hitch. I live in poor, rural America. Most people are faithful Sunday goers. Most that are not are republicans not for faith but some other illogical reason. My state was a swing state not because we got new Dems, I believe we just got more Dems out to go to the poles finally. I agree something needs to be done...we need their votes. But I was thing that we need to form a committe or something that looks into the issue of mixing church with government and penalizing candidates or parties that try to benefit by using religion as a platform for issues. I was also thinking about how Bush promised the Evangelical church leaders to work for their causes if they helped to him promote his bid for re-election.( not quoted but from transcript on Jesus factor, PBS)
This should be illegal like taking gains from any other lobbist or special interest group. I think if we get bullnosed about this issue it will take it off the playing mat and put us back to the real governing issues.

Because really their term "Values" is just a socially exceptable but misleading word for "Special Interest Groups". Shrubs an all future repubs assurance of a surefire win.

[AngryLizard]

15. No, if we get bullnosed about this issue then

it will make us look like we're beating up on Jesus. Plus, all they have to say is that appealing to religious groups is the same as appealing to any other special interest, like blacks. Or hispanics. Or seniors.

This is like in the 50s and 60s when the mostly democratic south slowly turned republican over the issue of civil rights. The Civil rights movement didn't go away, it just found a way to more or less work around the racist people. There has been a deeply conservative, evangelical backlash by people who think their way of life and beliefs are being threatened and looked-down upon. We, as liberals, almost completely discounted this. For instance, John Kerry is a divorced, liberal jew from Massachusetts, who married a filthy rich foreigner, and didn't give a damn about proclaiming all of these things from the rooftops. Not once has anyone here thought about how that would play in Mississippi or Kansas. We here don't care, and more power to us. But I bet there was a plenty of talk about in the midwest and deep south.

[Only Me]

26. I appreciate your thoughts but I have to disagree

some with you. I lived 9 years in SE Kansas 2 in NW Missouri in the mid-late nineties it is bible belt country plain and simple. They are born and bred republican and are proud to proclaim it. They are not interested in a Democrat candidate if he had .50 cents or 50 million.

I am a Christian and have been one for about 15 years. I don't believe in mixing church and state. Most non evangelical religions know it's not healthy for the church or the government. Christians fear the coming of the Anti-Christ. He will appear to be a religious man and will decieve the masses with his proclamations of faith.
Many Christians know, but not enough obviously, that this mix of government and religion is an open door to this happening. However, because of evanglical special interest I believe most church membered christians voted the way their ministers influenced. As my Democratic - Evangelical mother (S. Baptist) said this morning this is terrible for us Christians, this sort of thing just makes us more missunderstood and more hated. I agree.

Also Civil rights groups, were groups of ethnicities. Black and Hispanic were special interest because they were minorities and needed protection against discrimination, segregation and their very survival during those times. To me, this is a way different ball game. We aren't dealing with a race of people, we are dealing with an ideology. Seperation of Church and State is a provision in our Constitution that has been highly debated and still charged..
" Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." It's true meaning is very debateable and for that reason alone it should stay out of the
elections. Unlike when abortion came into play it got played out in the Supreme court till they could come to an ideal of when "life" is considered a life. So if we like or not..it became legal.

A legal agreement on the meaning of Seperation of Church and State has not progressed in the courts far enough, to my knowledge, to be definitive and therefore shouldn't be apart of the election or law making process til it can be determined. Remeber there are many religions this could pertain to in the future not just Christianity.
We can't know how other religions may effect this country in 10-20 years. So this isn't about just taking Jesus out of things. This is about taking Wickin Goddess and Gods, Muslims Ala, Jehovah Witness, Jehovah, Buddist Budda, Christians Christ , Satanist Satan, etc., out of the legal process.

Just my opinion.

Good link below:
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/tnpidx.htm

[Tweed]

28. We can at least neutralize their enthusiasm for Republicans

They came out in record numbers for the Republicans because of the 'moral danger' the Democrats represent. If it's clear we follow the words of Christ too, that 'danger' disappears with their enthusiasm. Some will stop drinking the Kool-Aid. We will never get 100% of the fundamentalist vote, but if we can get 50%, that's an improvement.

[Only Me]

60. My only problem with that is that I am afraid we will alienate the other

more progressive members of our party and our party will split...
then we'll have less people than we had before. I guess we need
to get in touch with not only the voter we need to get in touch with the members of our party. Right now is a critical time the loss is fresh and we need to start asking ourselves what we expect from the party and what kinds of people will make up it's membership.

This was a big election year for us and we've all known this for the last four years...yet, even with the country split and this party needing every possible voter, the people picked a shaky election year to start asking for controversial things,like stem cell, gay marriage and others. And Rove and his media pigs kept these controversial subject front and center.

So instead of waiting till we got candidates seated and a government that might work for change. It was made into an election year battle ground. That scared the heck out of southern and midwestern voter. What is our answer...I really don't know. Either way we go we loose somebody. But we must keep in mind that even though we lost this election...this country is still divided know matter what kind of spin the media wants to put on this.

[Sugarbleus]

23. I've been posting about this sort of thing too...

"Selective Moral Values" are not the whole picture, repugs. Broaden the definition so the hypocrits blanche...anyway, some interesting talking points for next campaign. They want Moral Values??? I got your moral values right here baby!! :evilgrin:

[Tweed]

29. I've been reading your threads on this topic too and they are great.

[Kahuna]

37. Absolutely. We need to redefine values starting now. Wes Clark understood

that. Too bad he didn't run in IA.

[mbee]

39. Liar shrub has proven that you have to have short slogans and I really

believe it would have to take in all segments of society. How about Religious and Non-Religious for Truth! We need to show our side is a united effort that includes all segments of society.

[MadHound]

41. And that tactic won't make one bit of difference friend, I hate to say.

Because no matter what you say about values, and helping the lower class these folks are going to think gays getting married, abortions running rampant, taking away their guns, and blacks, latinos, and other ferriners running amok. I know, I live amongst these people and deal with their mindset every day. They will go out and vote against their own interests every day of the week as long as the 'Pugs promise to keep their hateful, bigoted, narrow-minded worldview in supremacy.

Yes, you can argue logic, compassion, and theology with these folks all day, and perhaps sway a few of the saner ones amongst them. But when push comes to shove, hatred and bigotry are going to win out with the vast majority of these people every time.

I don't get it, I don't understand it, but I'm damn sure fed up with it because their worldview is not mine, and it is putting me, my family and friends in more and more danger, physically, emotionally, and economically each and every day.

[Tweed]

46. If you can open the eyes of just one, that could make a difference

That one could start questioning and the others would hear the questioning and perhaps they would wonder too. Some of them are weak evangelicals, and/or reasonable people. They will start voting their pocketbook if things get really bad. We need to plant the seed so the seed can grow.

[FlaGranny]

51. I think of it not so much to change their minds,

but as a way to flout their hypocrasy in their faces. It gives me satisfaction, if nothing else. It shuts them up, too. Maybe 1/2 of 1 percent of them can open their narrow minds enought to see their hypocracy.

[74dodgedart]

44. "Blessed are the peacemakers"

[FlaGranny]

48. I actually agree about talking about Jesus.

I'm an atheist, but I use the bible freely in talking about issues. My fundamentalist cousin is still a Democrat, but I was worried. She's reading the Left Behind series. But when I talk to her about TV evangelists and quotes of Jesus, etc., I know she is not falling to the dark side. She didn't like Kerry much, but she did vote for him. She is smart enough to know that GW does not practice Christian values. She was shocked when I told her what Jerry Falwell said about "wiping Muslims off the face of the earth." There must be many fundamentalists like her. What we are contending with are NEOCON fundamentalists who seem to not think for themselves and many, if not most, of them just cannot be reasoned with. They have given up all independent thought.

I believe that liberal fundamentalists are already on our side. The right-wing fundies will never be - unfortunately. They are pretty narrow minded people who pity us and pray for our souls because we are not them.

[Lindacooks]

52. MY dh has a book written about how the fundies are WRONG

and he backs up every one of his claims with Bible verses - thousands of them.

WE CAN'T FIND A PUBLISHER FOR THIS - ANYBODY KNOW OF ONE????

[FlaGranny]

53. Ask Will Pitt

maybe he can give you a pointer or two.

[Lindacooks]

54. Great idea!! Thank you!!

[atreides1]

56. Fantasy

It won't work, they don't care and the word liberal means the same as Satan.

The evangelical women seem to have forgotten that it was liberal thinking that got them the right to vote, it was liberal thinking that provided protection from sexual harrassment in the work place.

As for the part of the African-American community that voted for Bush,
maybe they should be reminded that if it were not for liberalism most would still be considered property, and they too would not have had the right to vote.

And for the rest of the "Americans" who re-elected Bush, it was a group of liberals who got together and decided that they wanted something different, and were willing to fight and die for freedom.

We don't have those kinds of liberals anymore, the fighting is done with words now, because we are more "civilized". The message is by word of mouth, because the other side controls the media through it's corporate allies.

As for the religion card forget using that, most Repuke fundies can quote scripture also, they just don't put any real stock in it, at least not the parts about social justice or love. They truly believe that anyone that does not share their belief is evil and should be punished. Love, justice, tolerance, forgiveness, these are words with no meaning to fundies.

Personally I would fel better if they did all go to God, I just want them to do it now, why wait, if you truly believe.

[liberalpragmatist]

57. KERRY Actually Started Doing This

I think it was promising. He also began talking a lot more about faith. Unfortunately, in hindsight it was too little too late. It should have been done from the start and Kerry's very real religiosity should have been sold from the beginning. Unfortunately, Bushco's smear campaign against Kerry (truly, a class act) meant that people did not trust Kerry. So many religious people I talked to didn't believe Kerry when he said he was religious - they assumed he was talking out of his ass about his being religious because they didn't trust him.

Nevertheless, he made some tentative strides in this and in the future we need to be more clearer about stressing how we are being true to the values that ALL religions embrace (charity, humility, justice, fairness, tolerance, love, respect). As I said, the problem this year is it was too little too late. Nobody realized how important this was going to be.

[Sara Beverley]

61. Wrong!!! they don't think THEY are in the lower classes. They think

minorities are in the lower classes. They think they are in a class by themselves, a class protected by God. They believe they have a right and now a mandate to hate what THEY believe GOD would hate. Abortion is not in the Bible. Homosexuality IS in the Bible. That's why the gay marriage issues rings so loudly in their ears. But remember, KERRY SAID HE BELIEVE THAT MARRIAGE SHOULD BE BETWEEN A MAN AND A WOMAN. THE EXACT SAME THING THAT BUSH SAID. BUSH SAID THAT HE BELIEVED IN CIVIL UNIONS, SO DID KERRY. It didn't matter that Bush's position and Kerry's position are the same. It only mattered that BUSH SAID HE WAS FOR A CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT TO BAN GAY MARRIAGE. Now Rove put him up to this because he heard from Pat Robertson that this would be the magic words he could use (and his ilk) to guarantee a record turnout of evangelicals. They made people believe that ther would nothing but gay marriages all around them. They started this about three years ago. It was a masterful move by Rove. BUSH DOES NOT WANT A CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT AGAINST GAY MARRIAGE, HE COULD CARE LESS AND HE KNOW'S IT WILL PROBABLY NOT PASS. If it does pass, ok by him but he just doesn't really care about it. The evangelicals will continue to push for this and Bush will use his position to drive the evangelicals to get behind whatever else he wants to do to screw the country. He is going to hold this amendment thing over their heads and they are going to hold it over his to get the maximum mutual benefit from it. Meanwhile, the nation and the world is going to suffer from the madness of this administration.