It's Knowledge vs. Believing ... and that's it.

[TahitiNut]

All other themes pale in comparison. All other themes map into this central schism.

Of those (8%) who said that "Religious Faith" was the most important quality in a candidate, only 8% voted for Kerry despite the fact of Kerry's very evident life-long traditional religious values. Bush* got 91% of those votes, despite the fact (not the belief) he attends services (for guidance) rarely.

Notice the Catch-22? These voters ignored the facts. They went on a belief that Bush* is somehow better in Religious Faith.

Of those (7%) who said that "Intelligent" was the most important quality in a candidate, only 9% voted for Bush* despite the belief that Bush*, as demonstrated by a post-graduate degree from Harvard, is intelligent. When the facts of Bush*'s college record are examined, of course, and compared to Kerry's, 91% voted for Kerry.

This is confirmed when we look at the vote of those with post-graduate degrees ... only 44% of whom voted for Bush*. This was the lowest support for Bush* for all educational backgrounds.


Some people invest their time in learning and obtaining information with which to form their opinions and choices. While these people are not without religious faith or spirituality, that faith is an extension of knowledge, not a substitute.

For others, belief is a substitute for knowledge. If they believe Saddam had WMD, it makes no difference what the facts are. If they believe tax cuts for the wealthy benefit working people, it makes no difference what the facts are. If they believe that same-sex marriages somehow have a direct effect on thier own marriages, it makes no difference what the facts are.

Then the question becomes, "What's the purpose of a religious faith?" Is it to provide a context for our knowledge of God's Creation or is it a substitute for what we can see, know, and understand?

It's no accident that the Bushbots live in areas of low population density. It's far easier to maintain the belief that "others" are a threat when one need not actually encounter those "others."

So, I can only conclude it's a war between ignorance and knowledge and between a perversion of faith and faith that uplifts and assists us in becoming all we can be.

It's the Dark Ages all over again. It's no surprise that's a time when Islam came into being.


http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/US/P/00/epolls.0.html

[knowbody0]

1. blind faith never meant so much b4

the Dark Ages redux
amen
do you see any hope of enlightenment?

[TahitiNut]

5. It depends.

The Dark Ages came to an end as a result of paternalistic (authoritarian) "child" abuse so egregious and far-flung that the "children" ran away. This led to the Reformation and the Age of Enlightenment. It also, far earlier, halted the global expansion of that "faith empire" ... which then relegated itself to a parasite on secular greed embodied in a monarchical sock-puppet.

As long as the pain caused by abuse is blamed on "the devil," "original sin" (which is used for a blame-the-victim cover story), or those "evil-doers" then the flocks will obey their owners' dogs, be repeatedly decimated for fleece, mutton, and lamb chops, and let their fear keep them from joining their free cousins in the coastal mountains. (But it's not safe there!)


Do you suppose it's some deep-seated awareness that leads freepers to adopt mutton-chops as a fashion statement?

Lambchop was a sock-puppet.


Yes, this post is deliberately dense with ambiguous allegories, mixed metaphors, and amphibolous symbolism. It's a yin-yang gestalt thing.

[BlueEyedSon]

2. I prefer "Reason v. Faith"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=103&topic_id=82513&mesg_id=82513

[TahitiNut]

12. Let's make it simple.

A person who believes cannot be called 'wrong.' They're called the 'right.'
A person who knows can only find more to know. There's always something 'left.'

We take being 'wrong' personally. Only people on the right have a right to be right ... and righteous. (Our language wires our brains.)

[TahitiNut]

19. A more serious answer: It's actually "Mythos vs. Logos"

Those terms, however, seem not to connect with the broader DU audience. We often fail in our discourse to distinguish between "truth" and "fact." Indeed, we tend to avoid even the development of an understanding that would discipline both our thinking and our dialog along such lines.

Sometimes mythos is a vessel within which we convey 'truth' even though the vessel is itself not 'factual.'

Sometimes logos is a vessel that contains no 'truth' even though the vessel is itself 'factual.'

When we deludedly insist on proclaiming 'factuality' for a mythos vessel in which 'truth' is conveyed, we destroy the vessel itself and it consequentially conveys nothing of value.


Consider AEsop. :shrug:

[BlueEyedSon]

22. Ooooooooooh

[lovedems]

3. Now it is clear to me why republicans have labeled learning institutions

and college professors as "liberals". That is why they have young conservatives outing professors for being "liberals". While we all equate knowledge with power, knowledge is dangerous to the conservatives. Hannity, Bildo and Rush would go out of business if ignorance didn't reign supreme. It is probably why * is setting it up for schools all across the country to be failures. Then comes the vouchers then comes Falwell opening a school in every community of the country. They count on ignorance, plain and simple.

[TahitiNut]

6. Well, regurgitated "knowledge" is their stock-in-trade.

Capitalism is about the ownership of the means of production.

Intellectual property is much of the wealth of today.

Thus, "intellectual" capitalists franchise "knowledge" that carries heavy fees and prohibits renegade "production" of intellectual property.

In other words, don't 'produce' your own intellectual property when you can get it from a fascist fast-food franchise.

Anyone addicted to reason and critical thinking is not welcome. That's a fascist heresy. Who cares what you think? We'll tell you what to think. When you feel the anxiety of cognitive dissonance, we'll tell you whom to blame.

You can lead the whores to oughta but you can't make them think.

[sandnsea]

7. Corporate Christian Schools

What you said, plus corporate control. Bill Bennett already has a business that sells a software homeschooling program and has it set up so the state pays for it through school districts. Within the curriculum is a definite cultural programming, mom gets up at 6 to make breakfast, dad gets up later and goes to work, bla bla bla. It's all about controlling everything. And when SSI is privatized, we'll be putting our own money into this shit. Fascist theocracy, that's what's coming.

[lovedems]

9. Isn't it laughable that ANYONE would consider Bill Bennett

worthy of educating anyone? That is just more evidence of the ignorance that overcomes these people. If Bill Bennett came knocking on my door trying to sell me an educational tool I would spit in his face. The hypocrisy of these people is astounding and the fact that people buy into it further confounds me. There are many things I will teach my children but one of the most important is how to spot a hypocrite.

[TahitiNut]

11. "Fascist theocracy, that's what's coming." Nope ... it's here.

Let's first of all emphasize that fascism ALWAYS employs the trappings of religion ("Gott Mit Uns"), mysticism ("End Times"), and belief above reason. Indeed, fascism took hold in Germany with exactly the same theme: "Fuck the intellectual elites; we the stupid can use the power of second-hand opinions!" Remember, Germany had decades of being recognized as the center of world science and medicine. Those who weren't equally lauded and celebrated (do to their own lack of accomplishment) resented these intelligentsia - a handy minority upon whom one's own comparable failures can be blamed. (After all, get rid of the A-students and the "mainstream" become the best, right?) If you have any doubt, just examine how the Reich treated thinkers that didn't subordinate their skills totally in the service of the Reich.

Fascism is an anti-intellectual ideology! It's the prevalent ideology of "fartland" Amerika today! Note how Chomsky is treated. Note how Rhodes scholars are treated.

For many, many years, "going to the city" has been emblematic of being a 'better' person - accomplished, educated, energetic, and ... liberal. The only way the dullards "got off the farm" was by following Alvin York into battle. Sadly, they didn't match up there, either.

The result of a century and a half of migration has been literally evolutionary. Exceptions prove the rule.

[sandnsea]

13. It'll be worse

All you say is true, but if you think fascist theocracy is here now, I think you're not realizing how much worse it's going to get in the next 4 years. Jon Stewart? Forget it, gone. Just like Bill Maher, George Carlin and Michael Moore. They'll all be gone, one way or the other. It's going to be horrible and is going to be much more difficult to dig our way out of. And as long as we keep denigrating all of rural America as a bunch of evangelical buffoons, we're helping it on its way.

[TahitiNut]

14. I think that's unquestionable at this point.

The "Nader Hypothesis" is alive and well. It's happening. The longer and slower we go, the worse it'll get. The shorter and faster we go, the sooner it'll be over and the deeper the lessons will be learned.

One thing's for sure: the mere fact that people are regarded as 'loonies' for using the word "Fascism" and applying it to (our beloved and sacrosanct!) Amerika has enabled its spread. It is a cancer in our body politic. It has metastacized. Until nearly all of us feel the pain, we'll not seek a cure. Sadly, we're drugged.

[lulu]

21. Mark Crispin Miller, who has a beautiful intellect,

said today on Morning Sedition on AAR that we must not let the corporate democrats or the media call us loonies when we name the Bush admininstration fascists. We must shout it from the rooftops because it is exactly what they are.

[TahitiNut]

27. Interesting. You know that Mark Crispin Miller is a DU 'lurker' don't you?

He's posted here and hosted an 'interview.' I can only suspect (quite stongly) that he's read this thread.

[Droopy]

4. I think you're on to something

Don't let the facts get in the way Mr. and Mrs. Bushbot. Bush believes, that's all you need to know.

[TahitiNut]

15. Ubetcha. He's used that 'defense' countless times.

There's nothing rational or empirical in his responses. When pressed, he merely proclaims a belief in himself. I find it appalling and astonishing that we're so brain-dead we they accept such total nonsense.

[manic expression]

8. so...

what exactly are you saying about Islam???

On edit: I agree with what you're saying in most of your post. Most people who voted for Bush voted on delusion and blind faith, and nothing more.

[PurityOfEssence]

10. Let's just say "fear of uncertainty"

You're going to die.

That's all there is.

People will put themselves through endless hell on earth just to have a beleif system that denies that. They'll vote against their own interests. They'll guarantee their subjugation.

It's gonna get really messy.

[TahitiNut]

16. FUD - Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt

What mental pathology drives a person to equate their very existence to 'knowing' - possessing an opinion with which others agree? After all, if our viewpoint is identical to some mass average then why would God put us on this earth? :evilgrin:
Doesn't She have better use for the protoplasm?

[Sara Beverley]

17. Being told what to "believe" is NOT "believing."

It's called brainwashing. An ampty mind is a terrible thing to use.

[TahitiNut]

18. Yes, and behavior without choice cannot be virtuous.

There is absolutely nothing 'moral' about behavior which is coerced. Even less 'moral' is the coercion itself. When the (co-called) "moral majority" adopts political and economic coercion and 'might makes right' approaches, they have inarguably demonstrated their own abdication of any morality whatsoever!

Thus, no government can be a moral arbiter through force of legislation imposed by police or military means. It is only in modeling moral values in its behavior that any person or nation can offer moral persuasion.

The use of force, including the threat of force, is at best amoral, and at worst immoral.

[msmcghee]

20. You're on the right track, TahitNut

So, I can only conclude it's a war between ignorance and knowledge and between a perversion of faith and faith that uplifts and assists us in becoming all we can be.

But I disagree about ingorance vs. knowledge. It's not that liberals are smarter than conservatives. It's that liberals are rightfully mistrustful of views that come from emotion. We are more likely to use reason to examine the evidence. And so, we're more likely to come up with solutions that actually work - rather than solutions that make us feel good about ourselves at the moment.

We're more willing to suspend the immediate good feelings of an ideological position - for the better results that might only show up later.

But when we get emotionally committeed we can also suspend our reason.

I think "liberal" classically means to be tolerant of a variety of views and to have an open mind. Reason can only function in that type of environment. As long as we stick to that we'll always make better decisions, I believe.

[lulu]

23. It is also a disdain for curiosity

Fundamentalist Christians are taught that the Bible contains the only truth, that nothing else is real. Any curiosity about the world outside "god's word" is exterminated. That includes emotional curiosity as well as intellectual. These people are also in denial of any emotion that reaches out to something other than the 10 Commandments. It is a combination of many, many things that leads them down this path.

[wiggs]

24. That's it.

This is Rove's bottom line. Facts, knowledge, truth, reason, research don't matter as much as belief. And belief can be shaped easily, not for everyone, but for enough people to elect someone into office.

This is his MO for every election he has been a part. And once you have the "credibility" of the office of President or VP you can virtually say anything you like and many, many people will believe it.

[LTRS]

25. No, it's election fraud!

Flordia ballots show huge (and I mean HUGE) numbers of DEMS supposedly voting for Bush in very Dem counties. That is indicative of wholesale theft of this election! My partner spent hours crunching numbers last night and there is no doubt - they stole FL and they probably stole Ohio as well. Trust me, we are NOT the conspiracy theorist types, and even on Wed I posting here saying "take off the tin foil hat" to people who automatically assumed it was stolen.

But it was. It really was. Check here.

http://ustogether.org/Florida_Election.htm

It's just not possible that 40 and 50% of registered dems voted for Bush, but ONLY in optical scan counties.

I don't know how to post a spreadsheet here, but here is a summary of how they did Florida:

Summary

-- In 13 of 15 touchscreen voting counties in Florida, Dems gained over what would be expected looking at just registration percentages –more than just Dems voted for Kerry in these counties

-- But in only 7 of 52 optical scanner voting counties (15%), Dems gained over what would be expected looking at registration percentages - this seems a little odd

-- In the touchscreen counties, the average gain was 8% over what you would expect based on Dem registration, including all 15 counties

--In the optical scanner counties, the average loss was 16.6% under what you would expect based on dem registration, including all 52 counties

-- If you apply the 8% average plus the expectations based on registration that was seen in the touchscreen counties to the optical scanner counties where we saw losses in the Dem column, it's a total of 281,143.

If you add this number to Kerry’s total, and subtract this number from Bush’s…

Method
Bush Votes
Kerry Votes

Subtotal
Touchscreen
1,845,876
1,982,210

Subtotal
Op-Scan-Precinct
1,950,213
1,445,675

Adjustment

-281,143
+281,143

Corrected Subtotal
Op-Scan-Precinct
1,668,730
1,727,158

Corrected Total
All Methods
3,514,606 - Bush
3,709,368 - Kerry

And guess what, when you correct, it matches the exit polls!

If we could get the paper ballots rescanned in Florida with machines that had been actually checked to make sure they was no fraud going on, you would see that Kerry very likely won this election.

Every DU'er needs to use every connection at their disposal to get this looked at. Even the idea that so many dems crossed over, if it was true, should be a huge story for the press. Come on people, we worked so hard. Don't let this go without being looked into. I want to see hundreds of replies to this post, so it stays at the top. Please! Mobilize!

[dolo amber]

26. .....