If the vote was rigged why hasn't a single Dem leader made that claim?

[wurzel]

If this vote was rigged ( and I believe it was) then Dem leaders must know they will NEVER gain the Presidency again. Then what is the point of the silence? If a single Dem leader made that claim public even this media would not ignore it. What happened to all those lawyers and all that talk about every vote getting counted? Are the Dems led by paper tigers? All we are now getting is talk of "olive branches".

[dogtag]

1. They are being eerily quiet. I hope eerie is a good thing.

[jrthin]

4. Me too. n/t

[TrustingDog]

36. I have a feeling it is a good thing...

no use in yelling out foul play before you can gather your stuff together for a case.

btw, NM went blue by a squeak

http://65.160.159.96/County0.htm

[West Coast Democrat]

82. The totals keep going back and forth...

as the counting continues

[GreenPartyVoter]

39. They are all working hard to reveal the fraud. You'll see!

-----------------------------------------------------------
FIGHT! Take this country back one town and state at a time!
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/electionreform.htm

[wurzel]

47. Who is the "they"?

[GreenPartyVoter]

49. K/E, Jessie Jackson, Al Sharpton, Michael Moore. All the folks you would

expect to be kicking up a fuss just about now. I honestly think they are being quiet for a reason.

-----------------------------------------------------------
FIGHT! Take this country back one town and state at a time!
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/electionreform.htm

[wurzel]

52. I expect Kerry, Edwards, Clinton, Dean, etc etc to kick up a fuss.

Do you think if the position was reversed: Delay, Fisk, Bush, Cheney etc would be silent?

[GreenPartyVoter]

55. They will when they have all the evidence. They are lawyers and they

know better than to say anything until the time is right.

-----------------------------------------------------------
FIGHT! Take this country back one town and state at a time!
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/electionreform.htm

[wurzel]

61. How are they going to get this "evidence"?

They need access to the programs in the machines. Programs protected by "copyright". They wont even get access to the machines. The electoral process in Ohio and Florida are controlled by Republicans. Believe me. I would love you to be right.

[jayctravis]

85. If there's something going on...

it's MUCH better for Kerry and Edwards to stay out of it.

[ClassWarrior]

66. Don't forget that John Edwards said...

...in his concession speech something to the effect that, "It won't change the results, but we're going to make sure that every last vote is counted." FWIW, it didn't sound like a platitude to me.

No retreat, no surrender.

NGU.

[wurzel]

75. "It won't change the result"?

[ClassWarrior]

84. I got the impression he was saying...

...but maybe it will.

NGU.

[andyhappy]

2. the donkeys really let us down!

where is the fight!

you can bet your bottom dollar the right would be fighting if the tables were turned!

[ClassWarrior]

64. Thanks for that ray of hope, happy guy.

Sheesh.

NGU.

[Worst Username Ever]

3. I take their absolute silence as a good thing.

I am hoping they are up to something.

[SmokingJacket]

5. Waiting for concrete evidence, maybe?

A tinfoil hat is a deathmask, methinks.

[wurzel]

10. Who from? Jeb Bush?

[snowbear]

15. I'm with Skry...

..they will be leaping on this. I just know it.

BUT THEY HAVE TO DO IT RIGHT. I have faith that the truth will come out and Bush will go down in flames.

Call me an optimist :shrug: ...but they TAMPERED with the LIEbolds and they knew exactly what they were doing, how to do it, and how to cover their tracks.

Something will come out soon that they didn't expect.. that they didn't count on... You'll see.

I'm keeping the faith - because this was a sinister action that was well-planned. But that they will NOT get away with in the end.

We have to take our time and get it RIGHT!

[wurzel]

25. The only way to do it "right" is to do it loud!

[ezgoingrl]

6. Because they have their heads buried in the sand.

And who is going to believe them? The media?? I don't think so. The democratic process (at least on a federal level)has been successfully usurped, and we may never see it again.

[wurzel]

11. They don't have to be believed. They do have to be vocal.

[LiberalVoice]

7. because they have their political carrers to worry about...

there is still tons of money to be made if you keep your mouth shut...Whens the last time a politicians stuck there neck out for the people...I'm disgusted and ashamed to be in the same group with those cowards.

[Avalux]

8. I think - I hope

they're quietly working on it. If they had caused a big fuss and Kerry had refused to concede, the media would have made a huge mess out of it. Best to get all the evidence in order, go to the SC and then hold a press conference.

I fully realize that this probably will not happen, but it would restore my faith in humankind if it did.

[wurzel]

14. Who is collecting the "evidence"?

[Avalux]

20. Why, the thousands of lawyers

the Democrats had standing by, remember?

OK, OK. Call it a pipe dream. I've got to hope for something right now or risk losing my mind completely.

[wurzel]

23. They all went home when Kerry conceded.

What is the basis of an investigation?

[BayStateBoy]

31. Lawyers Wanted to Move. Kerry Dismissed them. n/t

[ClassWarrior]

67. Your proof?

NGU.

[karlrschneider]

38. I should've read this thread before I posted "Maybe I'm nuts..."

Is it even possible that NOBODY with some clout is working on this? GODDAMIT! :grr: :grr:

[wurzel]

48. No one is working on it.

[Tomee450]

76. I'm with you.

I doubt that any of our leaders are doing a thing. They have been shown not to have much backbone.

[walldude]

72. Bev Harris for one

The largest Freedom of Information act claim is about to be made. She wants the voting records from every state. Most of the Dems probably were as devastated as we were and are hopefully re-grouping. Something to remember, Kerry, Edwards, Clinton, Moore, are all rich enough to retire today. With any luck all these people that we put our faith in are saying careers be dammned, we have to help the people of America.

[radwriter0555]

9. shhhhhh. be vewwy vewwy quiet. we're hunting wabbid wabbits.

it takes time.

[MyUncle]

12. I am wondering about minority vote counts.

Minority i.e. Democratic voting areas usually have minority i.e Democratic supervisors.

That is where I get stuck on the massive disenfranchisement in minority areas arguement this year.

I don't see Jesse Jackson out there beating the drum on this. When I do, I'll believe.

Don't tell me Jesse is in on this, that is something I will not accept.

[TexasSissy]

13. It's not wise to speak in times of emotion and upheaval. We'll see

what they start to say when the dust settles. They are also a little in shock, too. The Repubs basically swept the nation, except for a few bright spots.

It's also possible that, being in SUCH a minority position, they are afraid for their political lives to speak up about something that would be viewed as traitorous. Remember after 2000 when only a few black female U.S. House Reps spoke up? No others joined them.

We must look to get some real leaders, if they are scared. Of course, it takes power to be brave. If you're locked out of meetings and thrown off committees, you will lose access to information, which means you'll lose your next election, which means you won't have a job or any way to help your constituents anymore, anyway.

Catcha 22-a.

[wurzel]

19. Then our leaders must come from the "Deans" of the party.

Excuse the pun.

[TexasSissy]

37. I like Dean, okay? But he didn't speak up after the 2000 election, either

[madfloridian]

42. How do you know? Source.

Howard Dean got hundreds of thousands to sign a petition to get Rush Holt's voting initiative noticed by Congress. He hosted a show on CNBC with Bev Harris about hacking the vote. He did a lot more.

Is that not enough?

[wurzel]

46. I hope Dean runs again. No more Senators. Even Hillary.

[Egalitariat]

16. I read that Bush did worse than 2000 in the South Florida counties...

that have most of Florida's touch screens. I'll look for a link and repost.

[punpirate]

24. Didn't have many touch screens in 2000...

... I think you're referring to optical scanners. Those read a marked ballot (very easy to spoil, though, running them through the machine, or intentionally).

Florida started to install touch screens for the 2002 elections in a lot of counties.

But, a lot of the southernmost counties had punch cards in 2000.

[Egalitariat]

33. I didn't make my point well. Here's what I should have said

In S. Florida counties, Bush did bad in 2000 and worse in 2004. These S. Florida counties are the ones that have most of Florida's touch screen voting machines in 2004.

Those who think the touch screen voting machines are rigged would have expected Bush to do well (or at least better) in counties that used them.

That is not the case. I'm a Floridian, so I'm only speaking for what I've read about Florida touch screen voting.

[mutius]

41. do you believe

Do you believe what the media puts out. If the media did its job this nut would not be the president.

[Egalitariat]

45. No, but I do believe well read, well researched DUers

Please see the link. If the election was rigged via Diebold, it wasn't in Florida.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1312914&mesg_id=1312914

[punpirate]

50. If you look at the numbers...

... for Gore/Bush in 2000, and then compare the Kerry/Bush numbers in 2004 in terms of voter increases in strongly Democratic south county areas, you'll find quite the opposite--Bush's percentage of new voter votes in those areas was, in some places, almost double the percentage of new voters from 2000 to 2004. Palm Beach, Miami-Dade and Broward were that way.

You don't have to have Bush win in the heavily populated, heavily Democratic areas for him to win the state--that would be too obvious. But, improve his total a bit here, a bit there, and you've changed the state total, which ultimately determines the election.

If the total vote in, say, Miami-Dade went up by 15 points or so from 2000 to 2004, one would expect, especially due to Demo GOTV efforts among minorities, who vote strongly Democratic, you'd expect a 15% proportional increase in Kerry's percentage over Gore's in 2000, as well as a 15% proportional increase in Bush's totals. Bush's percent improvement was, in fact, sometimes double or near double that in those counties. If you add up the total votes in just those three counties based on that percentage improvement, you're approaching the 300,000 votes by which Bush "won" Florida.

There are investigations in Florida that are now in process, I believe. I think we're going to be seeing some interesting news in that regard in the next few days.

Cheers.

[hangemhigh]

17. I hope they're up to something...

but I think that's a fantasy. I think this election was stolen and there is so much shock that everyone's immobilized. The focus of everyone's attention at this time on both sides should be a fully accounted for election. While I'm at it, I think John Kerry was a tool and the thought of that is repellent. I want to believe that behind the scenes team Kerry and the DNC are waging a holy war to account for all of the votes. Sadly, that is more a rescue fantasy than a possible reality.

[buff2]

18. They're afraid of him

No one has the testicals to stand up to America's 1st DICKtator.The worst disaster in history and he's running the country deeper in hell and nobody will try to stop him. Bend over everyone....we've got 4 years of it to endure. Thank you God for making us suffer.

[wurzel]

22. If that is true it is going to be a lot more than four years.

How is the next election going to be different from this one?

[mutius]

34. Afraid is right

There have been people in the past that tried to stand up to this nut but they have suffered consequences.

[KittyWampus]

21. Media Would Crucify Without Solid Evidence. Also ALL THE VOTES

haven't been counted yet.

[wurzel]

30. Without solid evidence an investigation is "premature" And without

an investigation there can be no solid evidence. No wonder we never win an election.

[BayStateBoy]

32. Best Comment I'Ve Seen Yet. n/t

[KittyWampus]

35. Most Likely An Investigation Is Underway Now. Polls Haven't Even Been

closed for 24 hours yet.

You can't diagnose a problem until the problem has actually manifested itself...

[Kipepeo]

88. Who would be conducting an investigation?

I hope this is true, but I want to know who to look to.

[karlrschneider]

40. Premature elucidation?

:eyes:

[ClassWarrior]

68. Bingo.

NGU.

[Abelman]

26. The Democratic Party

is currently like an old historical building. It has been repainted many times, and is falling apart. The wiring is shitty, as are the foundation and the supports.

So, we've started to remodel. The foundation first. We need to get rid of all the old wallpaper and paint until we get to the base layer of the walls. We need to rewire it so it's safe to live in. We have to make it attractive on the outside to people interested in seeing the inside.

We've got to stop looking at saving the party - it's not a damsel in distress. We have to remodel it thoroughly, from the ground up. The base needs to be the common man, as it originally was.

[wurzel]

43. Dem Party is a "damsel in distress" hoping Sir True Count will rescue it!

[mutius]

27. They did it again

Wolf Blitzer (CNN) said the democrats are not angry and they believe the election was won far and square. but that we are just a little sad from defeat. i know in my heart something is not right,and they did it again.

[n2mark]

28. This bothers me too!

This has been the thought for the last two days. They are no where, no interviews not even on Air America. Forget the olive branch, do they know something we don't know? Maybe we should read very carefully the speeches by Edwards and Kerry and look at their body language . Maybe Edwards and Kerry said more then we think. Sometimes silence is golden. No one is speaking out even Dean. Something is up folks, at least I hope.

[ClassWarrior]

69. See post #66 above...

NGU.

[2Design]

29. they did nothing the first time

[mutius]

44. fool me once

fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me.

[UNIXcock]

51. Cut out the crap, consider for a moment that we just flat got out-voted

... is the even a remote possibility in your mind?

... If us Democrats are ever expected to regain control of OUR country, we must quit denying the fact that we fucked up once in a while.

... I'm sick and tired of hearing it's someone else's fucking fault. Face it, it's not, we lost this battle but we'll work hard to get more working class interested, registered and voting next time around.

... Denial - it ain't a river kids! :mad:

[in_cog_ni_to]

56. HELLO! Do you not pay attention? WE DID NOT LOSE!

In the areas where Kerry was ahead in the exit polls and Bush won, the voting machines had NO paper trial/audit capabilities. In the areas where Kerry was ahead in the exit polls and Bush LOST, the machines DID HAVE a paper trail/audit capabilities. There's no way in hell that that man won this election. He's the most hated man in the WORLD. He lost. He stole the election and I suggest you start fighting against electronic voting machines or we will never win another election.

[UNIXcock]

57. Cinch up the tin-foil hat at little tighter huh?

... Look man, early Tuesday Drudge reported early exit polls of larger city, east-coast, heavily liberal precincts we would EXPECT to harvest and win big votes. Mid-west, bible-belt polls weren't even open yet! You know, it's fine with me if it brings you comfort and satisfaction that the election was "stolen", I'm just saying that's not proactive in making changes so we assure winning next time.

... And it's not so much we lost as much is we didn't win big! Do your mourning and grieving, get angry and pissed than face the fact we just lost this one. Otherwise we'd be seeing an outcry from our 5000 lawyers, the DNC and the Kerry/Edwards champaign themselves.

... loosen it dude - :tinfoilhat:

[in_cog_ni_to]

63. How do you know that's not what they're doing

right now? The election was stolen and I suggest to you that you not waste your time, money or effort on any other election until the voting machines are gone. The Democrats will never win another election as long as this country votes on those machines. So, you're calling Bev Harris of BBV a :tinfoilhat:er? Hardly DUDE!

[wurzel]

65. I agree. If we did win the win wasn't big enough to expose fraud.

Now Kerry has conceded it is over.

[Vadem]

73. You're quoting Drudge? That says it all......n/t

[UNIXcock]

78. Not quoting Drudge, just illustrating what transpired chronologically ...

... specifically how they published Kerry's "comfortable" lead too early. In my precinct, there was a 2 hours wait to vote (yes, we're doing something about that too) a college gal was chatting in line with a few of us Kerry supporters. Another lady mentioned the Drudge article and the young gal split. We tried convincing her to stay but she felt certain the win was in the bag. I'm positive this wasn't the only instance this happened on the 2nd in polling places across the states.

[In Truth We Trust]

79. how's the weather at Langley unix troll

[Booster]

70. Once maybe; twice with the same idiot - hardly. Why don't

you open your eyes - you can see better.

[abumbyanyothername]

87. Without speaking to the topic of the main thread

(that is, whether this election was stolen)

We will never get enough votes unless we network market voting to a bunch of nonvoters.

Everyone must take responsibility for 10 voters. Everyone must "adopt" 1 or 2 first time voters and stick with them until the votes are cast. Everyone must find 3-4 activists, who will pledge to marshall 10 voters and 1-2 first time voters themselves.

Media appeal won't do it (see, e.g., MM, Eminem, Ashton, Bruce, Kirsten, Leonardo, etc.). It must be ONE VOTER TALKING WITH ANOTHER.

[in_cog_ni_to]

53. Well, first of all,

we wouldn't even be in this situation had they heeded the warnings about the voting machines. They were aware 4 YEARS ago that this would happen. WE told them. So, I can only hope that we have a nice little investigation going on. Maybe this was a setup by the Dems?? Maybe THIS is how they wanted to take down the republican party AND win the presidency??? Wouldn't that be sweet?

[camero]

54. Class

Honestly those Dem leaders haven't lost anything even if they had to go home after the vote. As a matter of fact, they gain because of Bush's tax cuts. I'd be very surprised if they actually investigated the fraud and held people accoutable.

[Generator]

58. I'm agreeing it was rigged

My question to everyone is if you believe that then what is the point of 2006 and 2008?

There is no point. And if our Dem leaders buy the fiction, fuck it. I'm not voting anymore. As I said before, I would vote on local issues. But President? Hah-I'll write in my own name first. Apparently,I have as much chance of being President as John Kerry.

Is this a Democracy or not? No one has answered my question.

Is this a Democracy or not?

I have faith in people, but I don't have any faith in our "Democratic" leaders today. And if you think I'm pissed, try some of the people that first voted this time and this is what happened. They have to believe their vote counts EVEN if it doesn't win. That's the whole point.

[WildEyedLiberal]

59. I like how people here think they know what's going on in Kerry's head

You all have no clue what they're up to or what they're planning. I love all the pessimists who are so sure that Kerry and Edwards have sold us down the river and that * has now turned the country into a dictatorship. Way to have faith, folks... pessimism never changed a damn thing.

Personally, I have a gut feeling, intution, call it what you will, that things aren't over yet. If you really think we've heard the last from the Kerry campaign, you're more naive/pessimistic than I thought. Something is going on - what, I've no clue. But either A) they are trying to gather evidence of election fraud so they can present a SOLID case, because without solid proof, the media and the Repukes will dismiss them as loonies and sore losers; or B) in the absence of any solid evidence of fraud, they are gathering forces and regrouping, beginning the plan to take the country back from Bush, starting now.

This one ain't over, folks. They're biding their time, waiting for the right moment to strike. And that's the best possible thing that could be done. Patience, people. The end is coming for the shrub junta, be it in the next few months or the next few years. We have to be ready to fight them when the time comes - when it comes. No sense in making ourselves look like fools wailing about fraud that we can't irrefutably prove. If Kerry did that, he'd look like a wackjob. If we can prove the fraud and give Kerry this election, great. If Rove & Co. covered their tracks too well, then we'll work on bringing them down now. Expect some serious shit to go down in the future.

I am eerily, preternatually calm about this whole thing. I feel like things are being taken care of. Don't ask me to explain it qualitatively, because I can't. But this is the beginning of the end of Shrub and in the next ten years, we will begin to usher in a new era of liberal leadership in this country. Don't count our guys out yet. Look beneath the surface, look at all possible angles. I have a strangely good feeling about things.

[wurzel]

62. Kerry could have done all this without conceding.

Why did Kerry concede?

[ClassWarrior]

71. Oh sure, try to do this in the same kind of shitstorm we saw in 2000?

Are you listening to Malloy right now? Bush* is ALREADY getting cocky. If JK/JE are going to do something, they've created very favorable conditions for doing it.

I, for one, believe JK is a fighter. You can't watch "Going Upriver" and believe anything else. Second, there's JE's mysterious comment during yesterday's "concession speech" - see #66 above. We haven't heard the end of this.

(edit: to clarify the subject of the second sentence)

NGU.

[wurzel]

74. May you be right and me wrong. Nothing would make me happier.

[ClassWarrior]

77. Hey, even if the votes AREN'T there for us...

...think of the catharsis in getting an actual, real, full vote count.

NGU.

[wurzel]

80. I'd go for that. I'd actually feel better knowing Bush really did win.

And the system worked correctly.

[bullimiami]

60. evidence is just being gathered.

look we are an active bunch and we are just getting it together.

please mail, write etc your congress people, k/e, etc and get a fire lit.

[leesa]

81. Because we have extremely poor leadership.

They are afraid of anthrax and the loss of their paychecks. Same folks who said "Forgedda bout it" (quote from Dianne Feinstein to me)after the first election theft in 2000 and the theft in 2002.
Many of them WANT Democracy squelched.
Remember, we are not only fighting the Republicans, we are fighting those who want imperialism and the squelching of our rights. They also come in 'Democrat' flavor. Most of our government members are millionaires and to remain so, they must keep us down.

This is the elites vs the rest of us. There are a few good elites, of course.

[graywarrior]

83. Let's face it, we don't have a sugar daddy

We are on our own. Let's develop our own leaders if the dem party cannot get their shit together. I'm tired of relying a new daddy to save me every four years.

Even if the dems do find something, do we really want to continue letting them speak for us when they can't even stand up for us?

[Kipepeo]

86. They are afraid

They should speak up.

I have not doubted for a second that it was rigged. There is no way Bush won most of the new voters. There is no way I am content with black box voting.