I am TOTALLY BURYING THIS BUSHIE in a discussion

[PotatoBoy]

Woohoo.. :) I always figured myself to be a total moron who couldn't hold his end in a discussion. Guess not.

I wish you guys could see this in full. Here's some excerpts..they're out of order, and this is kinda long..so forgive me. Don't read it if yer not interested! Notice how he can't answer my questions. This is a common Bushie trait!

Me:
Baby killer?? Dudes.. please. Even if Bush managed to ban abortion, that means women would just have it done in back alleys and places where it may not be healthy for them.

Him:
But it would still be illegal, therefore, doctors wouldn't be able to do it.

Me:
You say that if abortion were illegal, doctors wouldn't be able to do it. By the same logic, people are not able to smoke weed, because it's illegal.

Me:
Actually, I'm not sure why I'm arguing this point, because I don't feel too comfortable with abortion either. HOWEVER... I do know that I think people should have the choice to get an abortion if they so desire. The last thing we need is the government making it illegal. Do you really want the government to tell you what you can and can't do with your own body?

Him:
Really, who's body are you talking about?

The mother's or the child's body?

It's appearent the child has absolutely no say in what you do to its body, and it feels pain just as any other human being.

Me:
You're missing the point, which is this: the government should not have the ability to tell us what we can/can't do with our bodies. If you believe it SHOULD, maybe you're better off living under a dictatorship.

Besides, are you making the argument that an unborn fetus can feel pain? Do you have proof to back that up? How early on can it feel pain, exactly? 10 days? 20 days? 2 months?

Him:
I believe that "smoking pot" or economic proposals have far less baring than abortion.

Frankly, I look at a candidates stance on abortion before even considering them.

From an eithical point of view, the value of life (especially helpless babies) means far more to me than other issues.

The war in Iraq was justified by terrorist attacks if you want to debate abortion in that manner. However, the killing of innocent babies is only justified in the wanted or needs of the child barer, which is essentially a selfserving act.

Me:
But you avoided my point. Just because something is illegal doesn't mean it's not possible to do it. If abortion is outlawed, it WILL still happen, and it will happen under far less safer environments. Mark my words.

So the value of an unborn fetus, or possibly even a zygote, is more important to you than having the freedom to do what you want with your own body and whatever's inside of it? Nice.

How was the war in Iraq justified by terrorist attacks? I don't think Iraq attacked us. I believe it was the Saudis. I don't understand how Iraq comes into play.

Him:
A fetus is a human, is it not? It should be respected as any other human.

These are my beliefs and values. The govenment should stand up for those who can't speak, they have rights just as anyother being has rights.

Me:
Well, a fetus is a developing human. Don't get me wrong.. I respect your beliefs & values and I'm kind of on the same boat as you are with abortion. But I don't think it should be outlawed.

Those who can't speak have rights, just as any other being has rights. Do gays have rights too? Are you against gay marriage? Hope not..because then you will have contradicted yourself.

[LisaM]

1. Well tell him abortions have risen under Bush

and will probably continue to do so.

[PotatoBoy]

2. Wow really? proof?

Do you have evidence I can give this guy?

[deadparrot]

5. here ya go

http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=sojomail.display&issue=041013#5

[tedoll78]

3. You need to point-out the actual text of the Constitution.

The 14th Amendment says that "all persons born or naturalized" have rights.

In a legal sense, a fetus is neither "born" nor "naturalized."

Thus, fetuses have ZERO rights. Zilch. Zip.

There is no "This-makes-me-feel-icky-so-let's-just-ignore-that" Clause in the US Constitution. If anti-abortion activists want to end legal abortion, they need to actually add protections for "conceived persons" (or some such language) to the US Constitution. Otherwise, there's no such language. Any judge claiming a right to life for a fetus would be legislating from the bench.. and we all know how much the Right hates that, don't we? ;)

[PotatoBoy]

4. Man.. this guy refuses to answer my question, if he thinks that the ..

..government should have the ability to restrict/regulate what we do with our own bodies.

I wonder why he won't answer. :) SNAP!

[txindy]

7. You might also like to point out that Bush* just doesn't care

He's had control of the pResidency, Congress, and Supreme Court (not to mention the media) for four years, now. What exactly is it that has prevented him from making abortion illegal in those four years? Too much vacation? No, he's been playing the pro-lifers for chumps. When they re-selected him anyway, they proved him right.

[ellie]

11. One argument

that is never made is that once the government can dictate whether a woman can have an abortion, the door is open to other forms of control. For example, do you want the government to tell you how many kids to have? Or what kinds of kids? Or at what age you can have them? People will scoff, but banning abortion is just the beginning. Count on it.

[Orlandodem]

6. Ask all anti-choice people who they would

prosecute and what their sentence should be if they are convicted of having an abortion. Do they want to put a young women jail for having one? Do they want to spend tax dollars jailing doctors in states that outlaw it? And how absurd would it be to jail some doctors for performing them in states where it is illegal and they can do the same thing with no punishments in states where it's legal?

Point is, we need to reframe the abortion debate. If it is made illegal, there must be consequences. Right? Presumably something along the lines of "murder". Most people, even anti-choice, are not ready to jail doctors and women. If they do then they're even bigger morons than those who want to keep them safe, but legal and rare.

[ET Awful]

8. Have him explain how the war in Iraq was justified by terrorist

attacks since no such attack ever came from Iraq, was planned in Iraq, was committed by any Iraqi, or had any connection in any way to Iraq.

[PotatoBoy]

9. DAMN. The topic was locked!

Damn it.. I wasn't done yet!! :( And he never answered my question about how in the world Iraq attacked us.

Fuck these Bushies. FUCK THEM! They're so ignorant.. they actually believe we're fighting in Iraq because they attacked us.

Where is it? where's that puke icon? oh here it is...

:puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:

[PotatoBoy]

10. You know what, though..this is nice

I did get some great links in there before the topic was locked. I posted a link to proof of Bush's flip flops, and also some incidents where US soldiers attacked Iraqi weddings and killed women/children. Hopefully that will get some morons' gears cranking.

Here's the link:
http://www.penguinmagic.com/discuss/viewtopic.php?t=66625&start=75&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=

My posts start on page 6.