It really was the "gay marriage" issue that brought the evangelicals out.

[Sara Beverley]

Please hear me out. I work with two evangelicals, one white, one black. I know a lot about their thinking having been close to these women for a long time.

They believe they have a right and now a mandate to hate what THEY believe GOD would hate. Abortion is NOT in the Bible. Homosexuality IS in the Bible. That's why the gay marriage issues rings so loudly in their ears. But remember, KERRY SAID HE BELIEVED THAT MARRIAGE SHOULD BE BETWEEN A MAN AND A WOMAN. THE EXACT SAME THING THAT BUSH SAID. BUSH SAID THAT HE BELIEVED IN CIVIL UNIONS, SO DID KERRY. It didn't matter that Bush's position and Kerry's position are the same. They didn't hear that because it only mattered that BUSH SAID HE WAS FOR A CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT TO BAN GAY MARRIAGE. (Now Rove put him up to this because he heard from Pat Robertson that this would be the magic words he could use (and his ilk) to guarantee a record turnout of evangelicals.) They made people believe that ther would nothing but gay marriages all around them. They started this about three years ago. It was a masterful move by Rove. BUSH DOES NOT WANT A CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT AGAINST GAY MARRIAGE, HE COULD CARE LESS AND HE KNOW'S IT WILL PROBABLY NOT PASS. If it does pass, ok by him but he just doesn't really care about it. The evangelicals will continue to push for this and Bush will use his position to drive the evangelicals to get behind whatever else he wants to do to screw the country. He is going to hold this amendment thing over their heads and they are going to hold it over his to get the maximum mutual benefit from it. Meanwhile, the nation and the world is going to suffer from the madness of this administration.

[Sara Beverley]

1. I think we need to infiltrate the evangelicals to find out what makes them

tick.

[BlackVelvetElvis]

7. dupe-delete.

[BlackVelvetElvis]

8. We need to divide them.

There are foundation cracks in the rep party-between the sane "old school" ones and the right wing who now think they own the party. We have to exploit that.

[ClassWarrior]

28. Yup. Like this...

Okay, so let's make abortion illegal. But we have to figure out first who's going to take care of the hundreds of thousands - millions, even - of unborn children once they're born? Their infanticidal parents?? I don't think so. So we'll just have to increase taxes to expand the welfare state.

Let them tumble that one around awhile.

NGU.

[democratreformed]

30. I still say let's outlaw divorce. And require prison time for adultery.

Hell, let's go back to prohibition too. They wanna be radical? Let's give it to 'em.

[ClassWarrior]

33. Agree. Totally. We must defend marriage.

NGU.

[tsuki]

11. Hate is what makes them tick, that and money.

[democratreformed]

29. Key word - MONEY

Yes, that is definitely what makes them tick, IMO.

[Sara Beverley]

34. Hate works for the ignorant; money works for the informed.

That about covers it for them.

[ClassWarrior]

25. The beauty is, someone's already done it for you.

Read "What's the Matter with Kansas" by Thomas Frank, and "Don't Think of an Elephant" by George Lakoff.

NGU.

[KittyWampus]

2. Evangelicals Were Out Anyway. They Voted For Bush In 2000

and did so again this year.

Bush's extra numbers are fraudulent due to paperless E-Voting.

[deadparrot]

5. Many fo the fundies stayed home in 2000

because of the revelation about Chimpy's DUI.

They came out this time.

I believe there was fraud, but I don't know if it would have changed the ultimate outcome of the election.

[KittyWampus]

6. Bush's DUI Got Little Traction. Sorry, Not Buying It. They Were TOTALLY

for their redeemed savior Bush.

They LOVED him for being a recovering "prodigal son".

Nope, not buying it.

[sangh0]

24. Four million evangelicals stayed home in 2000

I can't tell you for sure WHY they stayed home, but stay home they did.

[Upfront]

3. You Are Correct

I know several good union people who voted Bush over this issue. It killed us.

[madfloridian]

4. So, do we run from it? Do we take their position to win?

Or do we stand up and make a stand? We never defined ourselves on it nor did we make it clear to the people what Bush was doing. Dean did bring up it a lot, but after Iowa he couldn't.

[yardwork]

18. We stand for what we always believed in - tolerance and equal rights

Let the Republicans self-destruct over the hatred, fear, and bigotry that they have nourished. It's a viper in their own house now.

I thank the Father and Mother that these hate-crazed loons aren't Democrats! Even though it may have cost us the election, the damage this hatred will cause to the Republicans will be monumental.

[madfloridian]

20. I agree.

I do believe they will destroy themselves for a while.

[RobinA]

9. I Worked With Evangelicals Too

Their fear of gays is not to be believed. Jaw-dropping. Very disturbing. I find it incomprehensible, and it goes WAY beyond the "it's a sin" prattle. They don't appear to be that afraid of adulterers, also a sin.

[Sara Beverley]

22. Not too long ago they would be feeling and saying those things about

Jews, blacks, and catholics,

[queerart]

10. Yup.......

It's all those filthy Queers fault Kerry lost, huh?......

Can't wait to see everyone's face when they over turn abortion.....

as we all know that is not devisive issue......

We all know as well that the War in Iraq didn't split the country.....

Now if only those dirty Queers would leave the party the democrats could win, huh?

If you try to weed out everything that is divisive in a election... you will be standing on the sidewalk by yourself :hi:

[Sara Beverley]

15. This is not what I am saying. My brother is gay. I am just trying to

get people to understand the MO of these freaks and how the Constitutional amendment move was designed to work these freaks into a frenzy. I am in no way blaming gays! Geezh, if we can't be honest with each other how are we ever going to overcome what is facing us? I am just adding my analysis to the discussion. If we don't identify a problem, how do you hope to solve it?

[queerart]

19. Hummmmm..........

>>Geezh, if we can't be honest with each other how are we ever going to overcome what is facing us?<<

I was just being honest with you... what's the panic?

Geezh;-)

[sangh0]

26. You weren't being honest with her

You said "It's all those filthy Queers fault Kerry lost, huh?......"

She never said that, and it's not honest to put words in someone else's mouth.

[Sara Beverley]

17. Perhaps a better understanding of what is going on can be read here

http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/TheSwiftAdvanceOfaPlannedCoup.htm

[fidgeting wildly]

12. These people do not represent the majority.

Exit polls showed that around 35% of voters (nationally) were against both gay marriage AND civil unions. The other 65% were pretty evenly split between supporting civil unions but not marriage, or supporting civil unions and marriage.

Read another way, 2/3 of Americans believe that civil unions and/or marriage should be available to gays and lesbians! The media presented these polls as a validation of their "findings" on Americans' preference of "moral values" over other issues, but I don't see it that way. These polls favor our side! We represent the majority opinion on this issue! A lot of people, too many people, simply don't understand this about the Democratic Party, because the right wing has been allowed to frame the dialogue. What we have to do is convince these 2/3 that we do represent their values.

How we are to do that, I don't know.

[sandnsea]

14. Kerry should have stood strong for gay rights

The party should have. We should have had the tv plastered with all kinds of gay business owners, doctors, scientists, sisters, brothers. It should have been framed as an issue of plain tolerance and decency. Then Kerry could have been seen as someone who stands for what he believes in, no matter how unpopular and that he's led on this since the 80's when it was really unpopular. He could have also brought up more on fighting for AIDS legislation in general and Global AIDS and meeting with world leaders on that issue. I don't know why the party doesn't understand that as soon as we concede on one issue, they'll just make up another one for the fundies to get in a tizz over.

[Sara Beverley]

16. This is a correct analysis. 1/3 is all it took to beat us!

That's my point!

[sangh0]

27. Unfortunately, the 2/3 that was on our side

didn't base their vote solely on that issue.

The for/against #'s are not nearly as important as the #'s that tell you who will base their vote on the issue.

On election day, they count votes, not opinions.

[Garbo 2004]

13. OK. Let's also demand Congress approve public stoning to punish adultery.

Sounds like a morally righteous thing to do (which I think I recall is in the Bible too). And when it comes to implementation, let's first start with Congress. </sarcasm>

Cynical hypocrites are playing the fundies for fools for their own ends. In the 50's pols and demagogues were scaring folks with commies under the bed. 50 years later they're scaring these folks with gays in the bed.

[democratreformed]

31. Yeah! I like this idea! n/t

[seraph]

21. rove

Pushed the fundies with lies like,

"John Kerry will ban the bible"

and

"John Kerry will legalize gay marriage"

or

"John Kerry will outlaw Jesus"


You have to remember, people vote out of fear not love.

[mzmolly]

23. My inlaws were disgusted with Bush and weren't gonna vote, the GM issue

gave them a "personal vendetta, a cause" and guess what, they voted for *. I think they had members of their Church who were "mobilized" by this issue as well?

Kerry saw it coming which is why he and Edwards mentioned the Cheney's daughter. They knew what might happen.

I now think the election may have been stolen on top of it all though.

[democratreformed]

32. About the election being stolen:

I'm starting to believe it too. I didn't want to believe it b/c admitting it seems to take away all hope. But, it's probably true.