I just got home from hearing James Carville speak.

[GumboYaYa]

Carville is clearly distraught about the election, but he is already focused on the future. He thinks we lost this time because the Republicans created a better story about Democrats and Kerry and just kept telling it, damn the facts. Kerry had better ideas and a better plan but all he did was list them. The Kerry campaign never wrapped the policy plans into a narrative to tell the people. Carville says that most people think in terms of a story: set up, conflict and resolution. We need to develop that story.

The culture war and fear is the reason the Republicans won this time. Some People will try to blame the loss on Democrats dedication to women's rights and equal rights for gay Americans, but those are principles of our party that will not change. It's just not in our nature as Democrats to compromise those principles.

What we need to do is develop a story that acknowledges those differences with others without belittling their views and elevate the discussion above those differences. For example, on abortion, pro-choice is not enough. We need to also make reducing the number of abortions that occur a central part of the issue because we care about people and families.

The culture war won the election for the Republicans this time, but they have unleashed a very dangerous beast. To keep the beast alive they will have to continually feed it. Gays are first on the agenda, but soon enough all the red states will have passed anti-gay hate legislation. Who will be next?

Elections have consequences. Soon we will see the consequences of this election. Bush did not hide what he is going to do. We will see more war, more tax cuts, and more conservative judges. The ugly face of the Republican party will be on display. We need to be prepared with an alternative story of a better America.

So what is the story for the Democratic party? Call it what you want, the message the rationale, whatever it is that makes us a better alternative than the Republicans?

[dave502d]

1. But they cheated. n/t

[shelley806]

3. Exactly...electronic Diebold cheating machines!..........n/t

[sksoapfan24]

6. Thank you

for reporting all of that to us. I like James Carville. I think his ideas make a lot of sense. I think a lot of people voted this time based on gay rights, abortion, stem cell research, religion and guns. These are the cultural issues. I have a hard time understanding how those issues could trump the economy or national security though. I do think that the Democrats need to come up with a way to speak to those southern voters that are concerned about those issues though without talking down to them. I have no clue how the democrats are going to bridge the divide. The question is, how do the democrats get the south? This is a Republican stronghold and it's costing us elections. We need to find a way to compete in the south without the party becoming just like the Republicans. We need to find a way for the democrats to hold fast to the true values of the party but at the same time making changes in how we communicate those ideas.

[Touchdown]

39. It's really simple. You have to think like an evangelical

I think a lot of people voted this time based on gay rights, abortion, stem cell research, religion and guns. These are the cultural issues. I have a hard time understanding how those issues could trump the economy or national security though.

The latter reasons are not reasons to them. If the rapture is to take place, and Armageddon will happen 7 1/2 years later (after the great tribulation), then there is no need to care about national security, since the final battle will happen anyway, and it is written as God's will. The Bible fortells (or just tells a story, you be the judge) of economies collapsing before the Rapture. This is necessary for the Rapture to happen, since those who do not get a 666 tattoo, will not be allowed to purchase/sell in the "new" economy...an economy that demands a loyalty oath to the Antichrist.

The former issues, are just to make their lives more pleasant until they are swept away. The guns are an issue because they have to protect themselves from death, so Jesus can take them alive. stem cells/abortion/gays are all just unpleasant things for them to think about, and they want some peace before the rest of us get destroyed.

30% of church-goers believe this bullshit.:eyes:

Thank you so much Tim Lahaye.:puke:

[SammyWinstonJack]

20. For some reason, our "Leaders" don't want to address that

:shrug:

[BuelahWitch]

24. They don't want the Repuglicans to call them Sore-Loserman!

"Boo hoo, the Repugs will call me names if I don't do what they want! Boo hoo hoo!"

[SammyWinstonJack]

30. It would seem that way

How sad! While they leave us out here twisting in the wind! But they want our support. :argh: "I've got your back" indeed!

[DELUSIONAL]

38. They cheated -- and if he doesn't know this FACT -- he is a dumb ass

He is part of the asshole media -- if he doesn't know that the vote was stolen.

Well he is on my -- "Go to Hell" list.

I don't want any lecture from that dumb ass who has NO taste in women -- his wife is a slut. So there!

I'm female and I can call her a damned slut.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

2. Some think that the "Exburbs" are the key to a Republican Majority...

for some time.

Exburbs are those areas that are on the outer reaches of suburbs.

[shelley806]

5. "the key to a Republican Majority..."=Stupidity.....n/t

[Cleita]

8. Oh is that why they are space cadets?

I live in the exurbs and I find the Ranchers will vote Republican even if Satan were running for any election.

[freetobegay]

4. Carville has always been alright in my book!

[Skittles]

7. hey GumboYaYa

what is GumboYaYa?

[GumboYaYa]

12. It is part of a voodoo curse....

grisgris gumboyaya. It means everyone talking at once.

Dr. John has a song named "Grisgris GumboYaYa".

[Skittles]

29. COOL

:thumbsup:

[sandnsea]

9. the evil liberal story

That's what I was saying earlier. It has less to do with any specific issue than a tactic where targets are the face of the "evil liberal" that Republicans vote against. They didn't vote for George Bush and his agenda, they voted against an idea that George Bush hates the evil liberals just like they do.

The story for the Kerry campaign should have been "everything's connected". Teresa told it beautifully. I hope the Democratic Party is smart enough to listen to her a little bit more.

[GumboYaYa]

14. The liberal media too.

I know people who will deny provable and reported facts by simply blaming the liberal media.

[tsuki]

50. How do you

define "liberal media?" Anyone that does not agree with FAUX News? I thought they all did, that's why they are off my TV.

[GumboYaYa]

52. Any one who reports facts that are adverse to Republicans

qualifies as far as I can see.

[In Truth We Trust]

10. F*ck Carville he sleeeps with a cheney worshipping nazi

don't get me wrong; when he is "on" he is among the best however I haven't heard him "on" for some time now. The fact that he was giving a speech tonight and dissecting our"loss" in terms of how we framed the debate is bs and he knows it. We are victims of a coup. Plain and simple he is a sellout.

[katmondoo]

11. Why can't we start by calling the Republicans

what they are--FASCISTS We are now living in a Fascist society. Forty or so years ago there were many people who left the Republican party as they were even then leaning toward Fascism. The word Liberal has been smeared so why can't we do the same with the word Republican , call it what it is, Fascist.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

17. Bingo! They are Fascists!

[Maat]

19. I have to be honest...I have lost my respect for James Carville..

he was O.K. during the Clinton years, but he's been willing to work with Douchebag, despite the fact that he's a treasonous POS.

And, beyond that, I disagree with his logic. Even if every pregnant female had millions, that wouldn't mean that she was mature enough to raise a child. Every child a wanted child! That way, social workers wouldn't have to deal with child abuse much. It is always a crime involving anger, desperation and violence!

Elective termination of pregnancy during the early months should be a unrestricted choice, as Roe v. Wade mandated.

If we stated things as Carville suggested, people would see through it. Yes, we want to improve living conditions in this country so that no one is coerced into terminating a pregnancy because of economic circumstances.

But I still want a woman who already has three children to be able to terminate the pregnancy if she feels that she can only handle those three. Ignorant uneducated fundies need to grow up and get real!

Excuse the rant. That's why I'm not a politcal advisor.

[KittyWampus]

13. Carville Is Too Stupid To See The Fraud? What Will It Take To Wake

these establishment Democrats the HELL UP???

[leesa]

26. Carville's part of the game they are playing with us.

It's never the fact that massive voter fraud occured, no, we need to tell better stories. What crap!

It's all part of our government conning of the people. He is part of the whole charade. NEVER point out the corruption, lies and immorality. Blame it on PR.

[walldude]

15. Sorry but after Carville's comments about

Jon Stewart I can't listen to anything he says.

[Gloria]

16. Schumer also mentioned the "they agree on our issues, but we need

to say it better" idea on last night's Daily Show. But, I've heard that before!! If this is what they think is the answer, I don't think it will do the job.

My friend and I think we have to turn the tables on the "values" crowd...show how our actions are really the "moral" actions, while pointing out the hypocrisy of the Repugs on these matters/their actions.
You have to speak to these issues in a different language, but also stick it to the Repugs at the same time. They really DON'T walk the walk in termes of "morality."

Kerry touched on this sort of thing in the debates when he talke about "actions vs rhetoric." It's a start. But it has to be developed.

[KittyWampus]

21. Clark's "Valuing Families Rather Than Just Talking Family Values

was what I'd been advocating here on DU for a very long time.

Kerry only touched on it.

[BuelahWitch]

31. Yes, certainly Valuing Families is MUCH more important

Red State Mom: "Yes, I can't buy little Joey food or medicine, but, by God, I don't have to worry about him being exposed to GAY MARRIAGE! Thank you President Bush!"

:puke:

[GumboYaYa]

25. That's what Carville was sayiing as well.

The consequences of the Republican hatred masquerading as values will become real in the next four years. The problem is to keep the Republican story going the need new victins. After Iraq, what next. They are being successful in denying equal rights to gy Americans, Which group is next, single unwed Mmothers. Tha's what Tom Coburn thinls.

Let them introduce their hate legislation. We have to be prepared to present an alternative vision or story that takes back values.

[BuelahWitch]

18. Sorry this sounds like a load of BS

Carville and the other Dem leaders lying down again letting the Rethuglicans set the tone. Now it's the "culture war." The DLC is just going to use this to try and move us further to the right next time. They won't listen to Palast, they won't investigate. Bushco said it was the bad, bad gays who lost the election for Kerry, so it must be so.

Had Kerry's numbers been the same as before October I could believe this. There WAS momentum for him after the debates. It wasn't ABB anymore!

James Carville dances in his pink tutu while his wife plays the tune.

[Maat]

23. I agree with you, Classicfilmman.

What you say makes sense to me! That's why I have always mistrusted Carville. He was the architect of the DLC-mandated move to the Center, if I'm not mistaken.

I'm proudly a member of the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party, like Dr. Dean said. And I might work with the other parts of the Democratic Party to get a candidate elected, but only if they acknowledge exactly how and why we are cooperating.

[BuelahWitch]

32. Carville got all kinds of hell when he came to Lawrence, KS

last spring. This was after Iowa. There were alot of Dean, Clark and Kucinich people here who were really giving it to him during question and answer period. You could see he was getting mad that the unwashed masses were trying to tell him the Democrats were wrong.

I'd like to see him come back and REALLY get pummeled!

[SammyWinstonJack]

27. Love it!

"James Carville dances in his pink tutu while his wife plays the tune."

[leesa]

28. Exactly. He is part of their con game.

NEVER mention the crimes committed...we need better PR. We need more gigs for James Carville, right?

[Bluebear]

34. How is it that the "culture war" exit polls were right

and the ones saying Kerry won not right?

[luaneryder]

49. Got no use for him or

the rest of the talking heads. Their mouths are all that move and their talk is cheap. He's all about his fat paycheck and tiny portion of fame. I will not listen to any of them or put in trust in anything they say.

[ObaMania]

22. Guess he got the "let's go quietly and look to the future" memo too!

I'm tired of this shit. I used to think he and Begala were the best! But now I'm thinking they are all just full of crap and looking to advance their own agendas.

What's the best you can do for us Carville? Hillary in '08? Screw you! With advisors like you who needs candidates?

I am DONE with all these "seasoned" politico's who think they know what's best for the party and what to do in the years ahead! These shitbags get millions to tell candidates what they want to hear- not what they need to do. Hell, if JK sat with me for just 10 fucking minutes he'd have a better idea of what people are looking for and it would've helped his chances better than listening to idiots like Carville and Shrum, I guarantee that!

What's their record now 0-2? Lose these dumb asses and try something new. How 'bout this... NeoDEMS? And you didn't have to pay me 1 cent to come up with that!

We will never change if we continue to listen to these jerks. And not only that... he's married to Matalin. As her husband, do you really think that he's going to let politics screw up their marriage and family? They may not talk shop, because I have a hunch he's pretty much on board with her. His whole DEM advsor thing is just to pay the bills. Not to advance his party. He has nothing to lose either way.

He makes me sick.

[enki23]

33. after they pass anti-gay hate legislation in all the red states...

and two-thirds of the blue states, they'll turn to the federal level to make sure it ain't happening *anywhere.* and they'll have packed the courts to make sure they don't need to worry about it being called "unconstitutional" this time. with a sympathetic judiciary, they will no longer need an amendment. just a plain ole' bill will do, thank you very much.

and when they've done that, what in the world makes you think that'll make them stop hating gays, liberals, the rest? gays will still be there, and there always be a danger that they'll get uppity. gotta keep electing republicans to make sure massachusetts never happens again. it might not be quite as immediate, and may not work forever, but it's still going to carry some weight.

[regnaD kciN]

35. Hey, Ragin' Cajun...

Carville is clearly distraught about the election, but he is already focused on the future. He thinks we lost this time because the Republicans created a better story about Democrats and Kerry and just kept telling it, damn the facts. Kerry had better ideas and a better plan but all he did was list them. The Kerry campaign never wrapped the policy plans into a narrative to tell the people. Carville says that most people think in terms of a story: set up, conflict and resolution. We need to develop that story.


...since you were on Kerry's campaign team, why the f*** didn't you work at coming up with that narrarive for them?

:bounce:

This is so typical -- the campaign advisor who, after the whole thing crashes and burns, walks away unscathed while blaming it on everyone else there.

Look, I enjoy Carville's Repug-bashing books as much as anyone. As a pundit, he's a lot of fun, sort of like Molly Ivins. And he does come up with some good policy ideas. But what on earth has given him this image of a campaign demigod? As far as I can tell, his major political achievement has been to get himself connnected to Bill Clinton, who had more charisma than any politician since John Kennedy -- and who could likely have gotten elected with Donald Duck as his campaign manager. Since then, Carville's success rate has been lackluster at best -- he's done better as a restauranteur than as a campaign advisor. It would seem, therefore, that if you plan to have Carville to run your campaign, you had best be sure in advance that your candidate has vastly more charm than anyone else out there. And, as an extra, make sure he's a southerner.

[goclark]

36. Hello Carville, anybody Home

They stole this election!
Why don't you ask your wife who was probably in on the deal.

[yowzayowzayowza]

37. Carville does have a point.

The left does not have a simple cohesive world view for people to buy into. Potential voters therefore fall prey to the the simplistic morality of the rightwing dissonance machine. Though polling shows people don't go for the overarching themes, "New Deal" & "Great Society" et al, those themes are really required to present a palatable package for consideration. This was one of my two problems with the Kerry campaign, the lack of an organizing message.

[madrchsod]

40. carville is brilliant as usual

his statement about abortion is absolutely correct..remember more people are having abortion during the last 4 yrs than under clinton`s last four years....

[ibegurpard]

41. Carville is wrong

in that he thinks that tweaking the message is going to substitute for building REAL, on-the-ground RELATIONSHIPS and COALITIONS that can help counteract the built-in grassroots potential of the fundie churches. I don't know how to do it, but framing the debate only works when there is groundwork laid for local organizations that are going to pick up the message and run with it.

[Oddman]

42. The story has to start now - the narrative must be filled with

voices of the 50% of Americans who have been cast away by this administration.

[Garbo 2004]

43. How do you get a message to the people intact through the media filter?

The so-called "liberal" media are often as bad as Fox and the mongers in slanting a story, misrepresenting facts, the candidate and the candidate's words; i.e., perpetuating a false version of the story.

What does Carville's say about that or did he mention that at all?

[ibegurpard]

45. Grassroots organizations

We don't have them. The Republicans have the fundie churches. We have nothing to compare.

[girl gone mad]

48. Why can't we divide and conquer?

Yes, there is corruption and pandering, but as churchgoers grow poorer because of the Bush economy, churches and preachers will grow poorer, too.

Society has consistently become more liberal over the past few decades, even as churches have decried immorality and Republicans have promised to restore family values.

Church attendance has gone down, and the shift to the right that many churches are attempting will only alienate more people. What drove churches to abandon the fire and brimstone approach in the first place was shrinking congregations.

I personally know several young couples who do not even believe in god, but attend church for the fringe benefits like youth groups and summer camps for their kids, group insurance plans, business connections and social gatherings.

All of these things lead me to believe that it is possible to make inroads with churches, and even to cause rifts within the fundie churches. We don't need to alter any of our positions on issues to do so, just change the way we talk about them, and reframe the economy as a family values issue.

We'll need the help of liberal churches. They need to get more vocal. Black churches leaders have been great, but we need some white and even latino church leaders to speak out as well.

[oasis]

44. Carville's analysis is spot on. (nt)

:thumbsup:

[flygal]

46. yeah, facts be damned..

a repug friend just emailed that the "moral majority" won. This is the same married creep who openly gropes women and who's 10 year old daughter found his stash of porn video.

but, all is good - we'll have morals

*stabbing eyes with pencil*

[GumboYaYa]

51. Morals and morality are amorphous terms that mean

completely different things to different people. They are similar to the word evil. Morality in the context used by the fundies serves to control people by making them feel superior to a different group. Most people like a story that ends with them being better than someone else. To do that you have to create enemies on whom to impose your "morality" and to keep it going you have to create new enemies. That is what is so dangerous about the culture war. I predict that in the long run this will be the undoing of the Republican party.

We have to begin to create our narrative that gives people a story to make them feel good about themselves for voting Democrat. Carville things the narrative shuld focus on the "national interest." Democrats are concerned with the national interest not special interest. Make greedy corporate executives the enemy in our morality play.

[Carolab]

47. He sleeps with the enemy

Spin, spin, spin.

HEY CARVILLE: WE WERE ROBBED AND WE KNOW IT