GLBTs in marriage discrimination issue states - gut check

[Ms. Toad]

I'm in Ohio, and I am so touched that more than 3 million voters took time out of their busy schedules on Tuesday to come spit on me.

I'm even more touched that I placed my issues on the back burner to work countless hours for Kerry, including standing in the rain all day on Tuesday to make sure the occasional voters I rounded up for Kerry actually voted, only to come here and read thread after thread blaming me for the election loss - because I just had to be "selfish" and bring up the marriage issue.

I expected to lose Issue One given that no one really devoted much time to defeating it, but the gut kick was far worse than I expected. I do feel better able to cope after a Cleveland Heights couple who were interviewed Tuesday night helped me put words around what I was feeling. But overall, in addition to the pain and disgust at being used as a public spittoon by Rove and company to drive Bush voters to the polls, I'm angry at being made the scapegoat here. I am particularly angry since I firmly believe Issue One in Ohio was was defeatable, because of the extremely poorly thought out second sentence. Nonetheless, I chose to to devote virtually all my free time for the last month and a half to rounding up Kerry supporters who rarely vote rather than organizing or working on that campaign, despite the direct and immediate impact of that issue on my life. That apparently still isn't good enough.

Anyone else here feeling the same way?

[Abelman]

1. I empathize

GLBT rights didn't lose this election. Every Democrat whose ever allowed themselves to be walked over, called a liberal without defending themselves, not stood up for their real beliefs, and not taken the chance to get involved in an argument they avoided lost this election, people who didn't take the time to phone bank because they were scared of what the other people would say to them.

People like me lost this election.

People like you are the reason we ended up with more voters against and incumbent president than any other.

[rogue emissary]

36. I agree . . .

. . . with Abelman, * attacked liberalism not just gays. So it's depressing to hear that some are blaming the GLBT community. If you consider yourself a liberal, * just put a target on your back.

This is exactly what they wanted to happen by going after GLBT issues. The repubs grew their party at the same time the Democrats have lost much of our core supporters. The far left going to the greens, and minority faction's not showing up to the poll in large enough numbers is what lost this election. We need to unify to hit them back not attack each other.
:dem:

[cardlaw]

2. I feel the same way.

And to be blamed for losing the election disappoints me. All I wanted was to be able to make decisions for my partner whenever I find him. It's sad people are saying I'm selfish because I want to be like everyone else.

I want to cry.

[freetobegay]

3. We have been shit on all day today!

Myself & several others dumped it right back on them!

[Ms. Toad]

6. I've been doing some dumping, too.

I played nicely for the last month, and this is the thanks I get?

Time is running out for us - our daughter is now 14. When she hits 18 it will be significantly harder for us to create the legal relationship between my spouse and our daughter. Our first attempt was denied because our marriage was (at the time) only a religious marriage - now that we have a legally sanctioned marriage we cannot afford to put off a second attempt much longer to gain state recognition of that marriage - and second parent adoption for our daughter. So it is particularly hard to have made the decision I did in this election, which I knew going in would mean I not only had to challenge state law but the state constitution as well, AND then be blamed for refusing to remain silent.

[freetobegay]

7. My heart goes out to you & your family.

God Bless you all.

[Ms. Toad]

11. Thank you.

It just gets to be a bit much to get hit from both friends and foes so hard in 24-48 hours.

My parents are coming in tomorrow, and I'll be embraced by my faith community over the weekend. Both will go along way to renew my spirits - as will some sleep. My cats are anxiously pacing at my feet for their bedtime snack.

[rawtribe]

4. Never compromise on civil rights! n/t

[gavodotcom]

5. I'm with you folks.

I'm a straight guy, and I don't think the Democratic Party went far enough in its platform. I'm all for gay marriage, personally. I think it's the civil rights issue of my generation. When I woke up Wednesday morning and learned all 11 measures passed, I was physically ill.

I urge everyone in the GLBT community to continue to work hard to hound Democratic representatives, senators, governors, and state congressional members. You've got to put their feet to the fire. I'm with you 100%. Every Democratic person I know has been against gay marriage at the onset, and within two minutes of me talking to them, they've realized that it's incredibly dishonest to support the ban.

The biggest part of my disbelief comes from the fact that there's only 19 million evangelicals who vote, right? How many would vote Democratic if their Republican candidates' heads spun around and they vomited pea soup? Yet they've been allowed to define the debate. The people the Dems need to reach aren't like this. Perceptions change, given enough knowledge. Truth has most definitely taken a back seat to sensationalism this year, and with luck, we can get the truth out there.

EDIT: Oh, and P.S., I think the majority of people on DU who have blamed the gay community aren't really DU'ers, and are really freepers. I'd no more call them a Democrat than I would a Cheney.

[tedzbear]

8. There are many here at DU who are not blaming us for the loss.

Even though there are many here who are. Actually, being a scapegoat isn't much of a shock because us GLBT people have always been the lowest of the low when it comes to the bigot's pecking order. Hell, there are even minorities of race who condemn us as beneath them, using their religious doctrines for an excuse.

And who was the only other minority to accompany the Jews into the gas chambers? You got it. The gays & lesbians wearing their pink triangles, that's who.

Now * has used prejudice to win an election, rather than run on his record. And 51% of the voters have validated it for him. Already a good portion of the Democratic party (and especially the DLC) are talking about how they need to embrace religious values and abandon GLBT people if need be.

OK. If that's what the DLC wants to do to win the next election, then go right ahead. Meanwhile, me and the rest of my ilk will go find a new party, probably the Greens in my case.

[queerart]

9. Amen!

You said it better than I ever could!:-)

[JusticeForAll]

10. Ms. Toad

Don't give up fighting for the things you believe in. No regrets either, YOU DID GREAT WORK!

Initiatives pass, initiatives get repealed.

"They" don't realize that the more adversity they shove at us makes us stonger and gives us solidarity.

The only thing I can say to people who feel that we "made them lose the election" is "You lost the election, I lost both the election and rights I never may have."

Don't stop thinking about tomorrow.

[Ms. Toad]

14. I've been working on peace and justice

issues since I was in Jr. High in the midst of the Vietnam war. Aside from the extra personal bashing this time around because of Issue One, it feels a lot like Nixon's reelection in 1972.

In what now seems ironic, I ran away from the conservative state in which I grew up to find like minded people at college in Ohio, since I was tired of being one of two people in the entire school opposed to the Vietnam war. Now I'm feeling like running away from Ohio (at least temporarily to a state with friendlier adoption laws).

I'm not likely to give up any time soon.

[JusticeForAll]

17. Run where you need to, or stay in place

Our laws clearly are not going to get much more liberal than they are for awhile. Why not do that temporary move to make the adoption possible? Get yourself stronger than ever by doing the things you need to do. Without that strength how can you fight for what's important?

I'm staying put in my red state...it needs help.

[The Traveler]

12. "First they came for the trade unionists"

"And I did nothing. Then, they came for the Jews. And I did nothing. Now they are coming for me ..."

As an incorrigibly straight American male, I find no issue with GLBT rights. GLBTs do not offend me ... they do not cause me to feel threatened ...

And the moral of the quotation above is not lost on me by any means. No American may be deprived of civil rights without the rights of all being placed at jeopardy.

But I also, as a Christian, have a doctrinal problem with this, and in this analysis there might a way of opening a channel of communications with the extremist segment of the American population.

I contend the persecution of gays, lesbians, bisexuals and trans-sexuals by the state in the name of God is nothing less than blasphemy, for reasons I outline below.

The systematic denial of rights is persecution, ipso facto. One cannot derive justification for such conduct from any statement found in the Sermon on the Mount, whereas one can find much rationale for tolerance.

To choose persecution instead of tolerance in the name of Christ is to to be anti-Christian in His name ... hence it is blasphemous, and it is abomination.

I tell you the truth, these evangelicals worship false gods ... a poorly translated book, the Almighty Dollar, and their own gargantuan egoes. There is a rot upon their souls, and it spreads like an infectious disease.

The treatment is well known but not easily administered. One cannot fight hatred with hatred ... we have to love the miserable sons of bitches until they hit the rocky bottom that looms before them, the inevitable price of insanity. Worse, we have to stand against them. We can be forgiven if we supply a banana peel or three to bring them more quickly to their knees ...

When they hit that bottom, we will have to heal them. We will have to help them rise back to their feet.

But in the mean time, we must resist against this and all other forms of oppression they intend for us.

[tedzbear]

16. Beautiful, robg!

Abe Lincoln (a Republican!) couldn't have put it better. Yes, the Jesus I've read was always more concerned with empathy and sharing than with judgment and punishment.

My favorite work is the red letter sayings of Jesus where historians logically compare the sayings that Jesus most likely said with those that Jesus couldn't have. It's surprising how few "red" sentences are left after they take out the doubtful ones. But wow, the ones that ARE left are surprising in their simplicity and obvious humanity.

Jesus is an easy man to love.

[sandnsea]

13. It's not fair to you

but people are just trying to process what happened. I think emotions are running in all directions. It hurts me personally to see the attacks on John himself, as if attack machines aren't going to go after anybody, as if wedge issues aren't going to be picked out of the air and slung at any candidate. It, too, feels like a slap in the face. So I know a bit of what you feel.

I was just about to post a thread, we aren't talking about the lies. It was the lies, stupid. It was the lies in 2000, it has been the lies for 4 years, and it was the lies in this campaign. We have got to figure out how to combat the lies.

[Droopy]

15. I wouldn't have blamed you

if you would have turned your full undivided attention to defeating that issue. I live in Ohio, too, and I was very upset to see that issue on the ballot. My heart goes out to you and all of my gay brothers and sisters. This was a serious set back in the fight for equal rights.

[Ms. Toad]

19. As I explained to my daughter

When she joined us at the polling place after school and she asked why I wasn't holding an Issue One sign along with the Kerry sign -

The next president will appoint at least one and likely a few Supreme Court justices, who will ultimately decide whether issues like Issue One are constitutional or not. A few more appointments like Scalia or Thomas, and there is no chance that Issue One will be found unconstitutional.

The sad reality is that there are people who voted for Issue One and for John Kerry. The election of someone who would make decent appointments to the Supreme Court is far more important than any single issue - and I did not want to take the chance of turning off Kerry voters by mingling the messages.

I don't know how well she understood it - mostly she thinks people in Ohio and the US are really stupid right about now - but someday she will understand that the choice to tolerate discrimination because something else is more crucially important always belongs to the target of the discrimination - and that is the choice I made this year.

Now I really am going to sleep.

What angers and saddens me here is that no one has the right to demand that I (or any other victim of discrimination of any sort) continue to tolerate that discrimination because speaking up about happens to be inconvenient in the current political climate.

[foreigncorrespondent]

18. I really do feel for you, hon!

And as an Australian lesbian whose country's government has just banned any and all recognition of gay marriages here, I for one certainly knows how you feel. I also know how it feels to be a federally sanctioned second class citizen in one's own country.

You done good, don't the let the homophobes tell you otherwise!

[Ms. Toad]

23. Darn,

We're contemplating spending our vacation money only in places that have not decided our marriages don't exist.

Our daughter really wants to go back to Australia. We were there last summer - she was one of the hordes of People to People ambassadors - and we took advantage of her three week absence to travel there ourselves.

[foreigncorrespondent]

26. Well I am really sorry...

...to disappoint you, but Australia really isn't so gay friendly anymore. Most of the people here are good, but unfortunately we have a Bush* wannabe in government, and he does the exact moves that Bush* does without fail!

Don't come here. Don't spend your money in a country where the government thinks you are not worth the same equality they themselves have.

[Ms. Toad]

31. But the diving was so much fun...

Darwin was an interesting trip back to the 70's except for the internet cafes (I haven't seen Woolworth's here for ages), and my daughter loves South Molle Island...

[foreigncorrespondent]

34. I haven't seen Woolworth's in ages either. LOL

Down here in Melbourne it is all Safeway (which of course is the same company.)

There are a lot of beautiful sights to see here in Oz, but while Australia is also leaning so far to the right, she ain't worth the time.

[fujiyama]

20. I'm not gay

but I was still disgusted to see it pass. Of the states where the measure passed, mine probably had a lower % by which it happened (60/40), compared to some places where it was over 80%. I was disgusted to hear a dem friend of mine vote for it.

As a non Christian I really don't feel like I fit in the emerging theocratic state as well. My stomach is sick. A friend of mine said it right. I have liberal outrage fatigue. At this point I don't want to care anymore.

[LittleClarkie]

21. I'm not blaming you, or the marriage issue

I'm just wondering how many gays actually voted to save their collective hides.

I have a friend at Starbucks who said that all his activist friends stayed home November 2. He was the only one of his group to vote, and he's a conservative. So he voted Bush. Fool.

[Ms. Toad]

22. I don't know

The folks on the ground with me in my precinct were gay - my spouse and a friend who wanted to work against Issue one, but couldn't find any organized activity.

Aside from that, I'm pretty much integrated into my various communities, which don't tend to be predominantly gay - so I don't have an experience based clue. My guess is about the same percentage as the rest of the population.

[eridani]

24. We will win eventually on this.

Liberals always do, unless the society gets materially busted back to feudalism. The conservatives lost on slavery, lost on women's suffrage, lost on child labor, lost on Jim Crow. They'll lose this battle in the long run for the same reasons.

[UNIXcock]

25. Arizona is a conservative bastion, but we now have a lesbian governor

... It's amazing to see the people adopt a little more tolerance here lately. It's refreshing not be thought of as a completely backward state anymore.

[Ms. Toad]

28. And in Ohio

the ultra conservative Cincinnati voted out its discriminatory ordinance when the consequences of that discrimination hit their pocketbooks. Too bad the actions of the rest of the state will also hit them in their pocketbooks and it may be too difficult for the brave souls in Cincinnati who voted out discrimination to feel as if their actions made any difference.

[Chovexani]

27. Completely feeling the same way.

You know what hurts even worse than knowing half the country hates your guts? So-called friends lining up to blame you for it.

I've never been so disgusted with DU in the 3 1/2 some-odd years I've been here. People's true colors are really coming out and it has really told me something. It's the same old bullshit the Dem party has always said, in theory they support our right to be who we are as GLBT people but when push comes to shove they will hang us out to dry. Except when it comes time to pass the donation plate around or work for their candidates. :puke:

I don't know where I belong anymore. I don't think I ever really did.

[Ms. Toad]

29. I've never belonged anyplace perfectly

When the extreme dissonance hits as it did here yesterday and the day before, I find it helpful to name it (if nothing else, it helps all of us who are feeling it not feel quite so alone).

Sometimes I withdraw for a while. I don't really believe in being a separatist lesbian - but there are times, primarily when I was working for a decade in the rape crisis movement, I have had an extreme need to have blocks of time when I was surrounded by only women.

I don't know if I am headed for a blocking out the DU blame period or not - there has been a fair amount of support in this thread. I'll take it day by day. Hang in there.

[noonwitch]

30. Can these voter iniatives be challenged in court?

I'm not a lawyer, and my assumption is that the voter initiative was a way to circumvent the courts.

[Ms. Toad]

33. They can be.

I am not familiar with each of them. If they were statutory initiatives they can be challenged in state courts with respect to both state and federal constitutionality for a variety of reasons.

If they are state constitutional amendments, they can be challenged in the federal courts based on federal constitutional law. The federal constitution generally sets minimum rights - states cannot carve away those rights without bringing the federal constitution into play.

There may also be challenges with respect to whether it should have been on the ballot in the first place - although the deadline may have passed for that. It was discovered fairly late in the game that "signatures" of real individuals were forged on the petitions by the same group who committed so many illegal acts that the court declined to specifically address whether individual signatures on the Nader petitions were valid.

Our marriage predates both the Ohio DOMA and the constitutional amendment - by our deliberate design (we ran off to Canada for a marriage that is solidly legally recognized where it was created - aside from Massachusetts residents no US marriage has that benefit). Our theory was that it is legally more difficult to take away rights we already have, that to refuse to grant them in the first place. If it is not challenged before then, by the time our daughter is around 16 we will be challenging the law in order to have the best option for a second parent adoption while she is still a minor (with a little escape time to establish residency and adopt in a neighboring state if it falls through again). I really hope we do not have to be the first through the courts again (ours is the only appellate decision on adoption in Ohio - and was denied because our marriage is not legally recognized).

[Catfight]

32. Excellent post! Yes, I'm with you 100%. I have turned my back on

my family because they are from Ohio and voted for Bush. I doubt they voted for that amendment, but who knows, they are stupid enough to vote for bush they wouldn't know one way or the other how to vote no on that issue if it was worded slightly off.
I now have turned my energy and focus to a new family, one that supports my issues and wants me to be safe in THIS country from the tyranny and bigotry that now exist. So yes, I feel the same way and that is why I will NOT be giving gifts to any of my nieces and nephews this year but will donating EVERY penny I'd spend on anything regarding my immediate family to HRC and backing causes that directly affect my life. No wedding gifts, no baby shower gifts, nothing that remotely supports their lifestyle because every dime I have as extra income that would go towards them...will now go towards my new family! I won't even spend money to call them long distance, they can enjoy their tax breaks over my happiness.

fuck em, they fucked me and literally, threw me to the wolves (that commercial is very appropriate now.)

[Ms. Toad]

35. Fortunately my family supports me

(and are as crushed by the election results on all fronts as I am). My political leanings were carefully nurtured by both parents. They are coming to visit today from a FIRMLY red state I escaped just after high school. They delayed their trip a week so I could focus on the GOTV drive rather than picking the donkeys up out of the living room (I'd say elephants, but it's been mostly donkeys cluttering up my house the last month :))