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Doesn't this feel like the 60s again?

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LiberteToujours Donating Member (737 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 03:51 AM
Original message
Doesn't this feel like the 60s again?
I wasn't alive in the 60s, but I've always thought it would have been fun to live during those times. We saw so many wonderful things happen for our society, and it all came from a deep anger with the government. So many awful things happened too, but things were REAL and relationships were tight. I am almost glad, in a strange way, to be starting my adult life in these trying times. I feel it will make me a better and more moral person in the long run. Look at the 30 and 40 somethings now who grew up in the affluent me-first decades of the 80s and 90s. They are demographically the strongest supporters of Bush. I really feel that Bush is going to push too far, and the pendulum is going to come snapping back to the left like never before.
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LosinIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 03:53 AM
Response to Original message
1. "Just like the 60s, step outside, you Nazi Cow" What Movie???
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Tweed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 03:56 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Field of Dreams!
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LosinIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 04:36 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. I love that part!
Go, Annie!
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RevCheesehead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 04:42 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. "No, I think you experienced two 50's and moved right on into the 70's"
an excellent slam!
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BayStateBoy Donating Member (562 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #1
33. It Will Only Feel Like the '60s IF We Demonstrate Like We Did n/t
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rawtribe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 03:59 AM
Response to Original message
3. Every town
must have a place where phony hippies meet. Psychedelic dungeons popping up on every street. -- Frank Zappa

Keep it real!!


:hippie:
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CindyDale Donating Member (941 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 04:00 AM
Response to Original message
4. Seems scarier than the 60s to me
but maybe that's because I'm 40 years older.

It is so encouraging to me to see the younger people standing up for America.
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JSJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 04:40 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. perhaps more menacing- 'scarier' is rather subjective
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RummyTheDummy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 04:06 AM
Response to Original message
5. My mom always talks about how sad the 60s were
She remembers the spring and summer after her and my dad got married, witnessing Bobby and Martin go down, and how she never wanted to bring kids into the world.Vietman as well.

And she was and is a Republican.

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bluedonkey Donating Member (644 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 04:18 AM
Response to Original message
6. the 60's
was born out of frustration and anger,that's right.But the machine is more sophisticated now!We caught them by surprise then,we have to be more sneaky nowadays.I still have some fight in me!Bring it on!
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regnaD kciN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 04:39 AM
Response to Original message
8. I knew the '60s...
...the '60s were a friend of mine, and this time, sir, is nothing like the '60s.
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LiberteToujours Donating Member (737 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 04:44 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. No?
Can you tell me what the mood of the country was like back then compared to now? How things are similar and how they were different? I just can't know what it was like, because I simply wasn't born. But they seem like a fascinating time.
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Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 05:11 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. The country was divided in the 60s, but not like it is
now. We had the belief we could change things and there was a great deal of cammeraderie in the dissent. Now the dissenters are fighting each other. This has got to stop. We need some kind of summit and a concerted effort to find common cause with one another to reclaim our nation.
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indigobusiness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #15
31. The 60s had the power of idealism...
This reeks of cynicism and castration.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 06:49 AM
Response to Reply #12
20. not remotely similar
What a long strange road it's been, and what a long tale it would have to be.

Basically, the 60s were a time of hope and expectation. The 50s may have been oppressive, from our perspective today, but it was mainly a comfortable yoke for most ordinary people, and their personal lives, in social and economic terms, had improved steadily and significantly since the end of the war. They were doing much better than their parents had done, and we, their kids, had every expectation of doing better still. The sky was big, and there were good things over the horizon.

There were jobs. Yes, grasshopper, people had jobs. And job security. And unions. And benefits. Well, men did. But at least, as women began to make strides toward equality, there was something there to strive for.

Now, keep in mind that I'm talking about white middle-class and working-class people (being working-class wasn't all that bad then; there were good, secure blue-collar jobs for men, and I grew up in a subdivision full of families who owned houses those men's wages paid for), and of course I was in Canada. Life wasn't perfect. But it seemed entirely possible to keep improving it -- for individuals, and for disadvantaged groups like people of colour and women.

We didn't feel powerless. And in the case of my generation, there were just a whole lot of us all of a sudden. But we didn't have malls to work in and buy crap in. That's a huge difference between us and now. We just weren't consumption/production units first and students or activists or whatever else we were second. Our lives just didn't revolve around stuff.

Now of course not all of us were hippies, or even the modified hippies/political activists that I and my university student colleagues were. But a lot of us really didn't give a shit about stuff. We didn't own cars at 16 or even 21, or eat take-out food, or consume disposable batteries for multiple electronic gadgets faster than the earth will ever absorb them, and we bought our clothes used. And shoes didn't have brand names.

Yes, I think that we were morally superior to people who do all those things today, but that's not my point. ;) We weren't trapped in the hamster wheel of consumption -- although we regarded our parents' generation, the post-war couples (I'm a mid-term boomer), as being stuck in it. And we didn't want to be. Again, I'm talking about children of reasonably comfortable backgrounds, including the working class; we didn't have status, but we did have security. And of course there were more people in the US than here, people of colour, and the First Nations people in both places, who weren't coming out of the 50s as well off as the rest, but again, there were expectations and there was a feeling of powerfulness.

So what we had were those proverbial rising expectations. We wanted the world to be better, we didn't want what we saw as the empty and stuff-obsessed, conformist lives of our parents' generation, we wanted to do what made us happy; and we wanted it now, and there were enough of us to make a noise, and we expected to get what we wanted, and we believed it was possible. And again, in socio-political terms, in terms of the things we wanted that weren't just for ourselves, I'm talking about those of us who actually did give a shit, which wasn't by any means all of us.

Up here (where you and I are), in the late 60s, we had Pierre Trudeau. Now, this was a little different from the US, where they'd already had, and lost, JFK. But the decade had leaders who were perceived as idealists in both places, and this affected the society as a whole. In the US, Camelot/The Great Society (and the War on Poverty); in Canada, The Just Society: formal, government-framed commitments to actual values that sprang from something other than greed and hatred.

Of course the anger was greater in the US, because there was more to be angry about. And ultimately, less changed there than here. We did get our universal health care and student loans and youth employment programs and other trappings of social democracy. They got sidetracked with that war thing.

And that's a damned shame, because they just got stunted right there. All of the energy that went into stopping that war knocked them over. And ultimately, the war didn't end because the people of the US thought about what they were doing and decided it was atrocious; it ended because they decided that the sacrifice they were being asked to make, themselves, was too great. They didn't end the war because of the murdered children of My Lai; they ended it because of the bodies of USAmerican soldiers.

And they didn't come out of the war looking for new challenges to improve their society and the world; they turned to Ronnie for comfort food while they licked their wounds, and closed themselves in, and kept right on believing that the world out there was evil and was out to get them. Just like in the 50s. While the rest of us opened ourselves up to the world and to modernity. That's what Expo 67 was all about, after all.

And the failure to learn any lessons there, in the US at the end of the war, left the path open for all the atrocious things that the US has done in the world since then, up to Iraq. And people there became increasingly isolated from and hostile to the world, and thus increasingly vulnerable to the representations of reality they were fed and unable to assess what their governors were doing either to themselves or to the rest of the world.

So the task in the US now is orders of magnitude larger than it was in the 60s ... and look how that turned out.

In the 60s, we talked about, and did, our own culture; we expressly aimed to reshape the one we lived in and humanize it. It wasn't a matter of buying CDs and concert tickets, it was cultural festivals and political actions and content, but most importantly doing, not consuming. We lived in clusters (there were 18 people in my big old undergrad house), not in condos. We communicated in person, and collectively and publicly, not by text message. Our discourse was message, not medium.

Yup, I'm a fogey. And I'm sure that people that age have a culture today. But the extent to which they have become the products being traded in the marketplace -- they are the vehicle by which money is made, whether as labour or as consumer, not the subjects of the culture; they are acted on, not the actors -- is disturbing.

And of course this is the political culture in the US now too. Voters are not the recipients of messages which they examine from the perspective of their own values and needs and from which they choose -- they themselves are fashioned by the message. Just as their needs for food and clothing are fashioned by the producers and marketers of the commodities.

So they're just not equipped to shape their own destiny. They're essentially the complete opposite of what we were. We were all about existence -- we were engaged in the action of creating ourselves and our world. To do is to be; the subject, acting, becoming. I see a world of people now who all about essence: they are, rather than doing; they do what they are made for, rather than making themselves by what they do; they are objectified and they perform as programmed.

Even the people who want them to perform differently seem to be thinking within that paradigm, I tend to think when reading some of the things here in the last couple of days. I get enormously frustrated when the body-bags message is used to generate opposition to the occupation of Iraq, for instance. In the short term, it may succeed in getting support for the desired action, from people who see that message as fitting the image of themselves they see in the mirror that their society has made for them. But nothing will have changed. They will still be ripe for the next smooth operator who can offer them a better image of themselves and sign them on.

People do need to take responsibility for what and who they are, and what they do. And they don't do that -- people don't change -- unless they are UNcomfortable with what they are. The body-bag argument makes them uncomfortable with what is happening to them, not with what they are doing. And it's what they are doing that needs to change, for all of our collective good.

People need to feel cognitive dissonance. They need to know that outlawing abortion will kill women, and to know that they will be responsible for this, and feel the extreme discomfort of knowing that their actions are having consequences that are the exact opposite of the values they claim. The occupation of Iraq is hurting people; gobbling resources and spewing waste is hurting people; excluding gay men and lesbians from society is hurting people.

There was just this strong "moral" content to the messages of the 60s. We didn't "reframe" our messages to lessen the discomfort they might cause people. We called cops "pigs" because that's how they behaved; we called sexist men "pigs" because that's how they behaved. Of course, our messages were rejected by much of our audience, too. Too much discomfort all at once can cause a backlash effect.

All of us tend far too much to think that we can change other people. Those for whom this election was their first big political action are suffering the concussion that comes from being hit on the head by the great big fact that no matter what one does, one can't make someone else change.

But damn ... all this ... and I guess it comes down to that doing vs. being thing, and how it informs the strategies one uses. People working for social change and social justice today are dealing with a world of people who are treated, and behave, like commodities. For all kinds of reasons, we who were the young generation in the 60s had grown up to be agents, not acted on. So when we wanted change, we set about making it, to actually change the world to our image.

Now, those who oppose change make it their business to interpret and reinterpret the world to suit the image they have assigned to the people in it, and those people just don't see that the world isn't the way they're being told it looks. If they did see it as it is, it wouldn't fit with their image of themselves -- as decent, patriotic, moral folks ... all of them, of course, on the upper half of the income scale, no matter how poor they really are. They'd see that they're fucking a whole lot of people over, and getting fucked over themselves. And those are unpleasant things to see -- and if they don't see a way out of the shit, remembering that people who are essentially objects in their own lives don't have any practice at creating ways, they're not going to want to see the shit.

So hmm, I guess everybody has a harder row to hoe these days than we did, but hopefully something to learn from our mistakes. ;) Don't make the message so uncomfortable that people turn right away from it. But don't play the people-as-commodities game and try to get them to do what you want them to do by offering them outs. The first will get you backlash, and the second will get you an endless loop of manipulation and counter-manipulation in which you'll always be fighting uphill on ice with a bent sword.

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LiberteToujours Donating Member (737 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #20
28. Wow, thank you
That was so insightful. And you're right about the rampant consumerism in society today. But for those of us born in the 70s and 80s it's really hard to imagine anything else. It IS the world to us. I have personally seen increases in consumerism and big media in the past ten years and I find them repugnant, and the early nineties look like the good days to me.

I like your message about framing the argument. It's definitely true that the bodybags argument only works by making people feel bad about what is happening to them. But at the same time, I feel that many of those who truly care about ending the war DO care about the people of Iraq, but they can see that most people do not so they need to find some way of reaching the people, just to end the killing. We will not have learned anything, but maybe we'll save thousands of lives. That has to be worth something. How else can it be done?
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #8
27. There is more porn now
For the record, can we as a party, get off the nostalgia craze? I was born in 1973. The sixties are my parents' photo albums. It's 2004; let's have a plan built for 2004.
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indigobusiness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #27
34. You and your ilk owe a debt of gratitude to the 60s.
Show some respect to those who fought your battles for you.

You have no idea.
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cmd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #8
35. Very true
There is no comparison.
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fujiyama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 04:42 AM
Response to Original message
10. As I finish college
I feel as though we definetely entering trying times.

These will be some of the more difficult years this nation has faced in recent years.

I could only have hoped that an opposing party had control of congress. Instead they have every branch - including a RW supreme court.
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mrbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 04:48 AM
Response to Original message
13. gonna need a draft to make it feel like the 60's.......
a little fire under the ass motivation.
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calico1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 07:29 AM
Response to Reply #13
23. I agree.
Although I am filled with admiration for all the young people I see posting on this board who love their country and want to fight to keep it the way it should be, the fact is that a lot of other young people are greedy and selfish, or they are disinterested and detached and just don't really give a shit because nothing really affects them. During the 60's there was a war. Nothing like being this close to getting sent to war to make you care and make you get active. I don't really think that people in the 60's were any better than people now. I think people react to the circumstances they live in. A lot of todays younger people have lived all their lives without having to fight for anything that they have. And the 60's is just a historical time they can't relate to. Young women today can get better jobs and don't face the amount of job discrimination that they did in the 60's. Abortion is legal. There are laws against harassment in the work place. Age discrimination is illegal. None of this was so in the 60's. Women, minorities--everyone had to fight for the rights we have today. But the young people today take a lot of this for granted. I am glad that the people on this forum know that we are always at risk of losing rights, but I'm afraid that you are in the minority. I'm afraid that in order to light a fire under todays "slackers" there is going to have to be something that directly threatens them. Unfortunately we can't seem to learn lessons from the past. Its too bad that the generations that fight for rights can't inoculate the future generations so that they don't forget. But they do forget. And they take things for granted. That's the problem. If abortion becomes illegal again, if the draft comes back, I really think that the youth of this country will stop being detached, start caring again and realize that they have to fight for their rights. After the results of this past election, I really think it will have to come to that.
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LiberteToujours Donating Member (737 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. Don't forget
The youth were the only age group to vote Kerry. Maybe we didn't come out in enough numbers to balance out the other age groups, but at least we had our heads on straight. Just saying.
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reeree Donating Member (53 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 04:55 AM
Response to Original message
14. liberal backlash
is definitely a possibility. If Bush pushes too far the country will respond with a call to move back toward the center. But at what cost? What fresh horrors will he have to unleash to counter the conservative mood the country is in? I shudder to think. Would that we could get the country to see reason without the horrors that are inevitably ahead of us.
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Piperay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 05:58 AM
Response to Original message
16. Now is much worse
the 60's were bad but this is worse because it is more hopeless. :-(
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jpatti Donating Member (15 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 06:03 AM
Response to Original message
17. Kent State
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cassiepriam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 06:15 AM
Response to Original message
18. Much worse than the 60's
For many reasons.
This time we might die, face finacial ruin.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 06:31 AM
Response to Original message
19. No.... (graduated high school '67)
Edited on Fri Nov-05-04 06:34 AM by SoCalDem
This is NOTHING like the 60's.

No "time" in history can ever be replicated. The passage of time between events changes the whole paradigm.

The 60's was the FIRST time that kids bucked the system (in any great numbers).. our parents were WWII/Korean war era people who toed the line and expected us to.. As a military brat, we actually had "fingernail inspection/shoe inspection/closet inspection/room inspection).. Kids were regimented at home and school, and yet after school, we were turned loose to wander on our own.

Only rich kids had "organized activities"..the rest of us explored, rode bikes, and goofed off..

When we rebelled as teens, our parents & their peers did not know what to make of it, because stuff like that did not happen in their day..

The fact that there were SO MANY of us, made it impossible for the media to ignore..

we "started" the 60's by believinbg that , at any moment an atomic bomb would vaproize us all, and it almost happened..

As young teens, we saw a beloved president gunned down in Texas, then watched on live tv as his assassin(?) was gunned down..

Through most of the 60's there were daily stories involving civil rights struggles, body bags from viet nam, counterculture protest groups..

In 1967, there was practically a 100% chance that you were going to Viet Nam unless you were a rich boy, so the stakes were as high as they get..

The National guard shot and killed protestors at Kent State. The military was afraid of the kids, the cops were afraid.. Most people were afraid... but at the same time defiant..

In 1968 MLK was assassinated.. a few months later , Bobby Kennedy..
There were rio\ts all over the place.. That was true CHAOS..





NOW...

kids are soft..they have been carted around to this activity and that..their teachers have been afraid to discipline them (or be fired/sued/both)..their parents are afraid of them (want to be friends)...

I am not saying that people are not pissed off, this is not like the 60's..Not even close
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luaneryder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 06:52 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. It was chaos
and things were actually changed because of it. We really did have leaders who "had our back" then; not many, but a few. The media had some real journalists willing to write and investigate. Now we have no one willing to risk anything to get this country out of hell. The only thing I can see that will mobilize people is the return of the draft or something else that makes it all personal. People won't take action until it comes into their homes and lives.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 07:05 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. Yes. it has to come into their immediate lives
and we did have a good media, but we only had 15-30 minutes a day .. They crammed a lot of real news into that time period..

The print press did a great job, but they were mostly PRIVATELY owned.

Things are nothing like that now.. I don;t have much hope./.
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luaneryder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. I feel you SCD
Edited on Fri Nov-05-04 04:37 PM by luaneryder
My hope is all but gone:-(
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Individualist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #21
32. Excellent point about media in the 60's
There was some integrity then, and that made a huge difference. Americans saw truth on the news; we heard and saw what was happening in Viet Nam, and there were no "imbedded" reporters.
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luaneryder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #32
36. Score on the embedded
That way the DoD can keep a sharp eye on those pesky reporters. The military learned that lesson from Nam-let them see only what you want them to see.
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Trailrider1951 Donating Member (933 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 04:48 PM
Response to Original message
26. Yeppers, second verse, same as the first
Once upon a time, I protested an unjust war and a pResident that thought he was above the law. I thought we settled that, but those cockroaches have come back, worse than ever this time. This time, though, we need to get rid of them for good. Now, where did I put that STOP THE WAR sign? :hippie:
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. It's the "good-ole-boy network , in action
If the Dems had squashed them after Watergate & then Iran-Contra instead of just "stunning" them, they could NOT have come back.. There is a tendency in DC to cover each other's asses, because they ALL have dirt on each other.. That's the PRIME reason I despise "lifelong" politicians.. Long tenure in a place like that HAS to contain MANY shady deals, and they all know it.

They cut secret deals to "help" each other. The public ALWAYS loses in the long run.

If we had true public servants, they would not be able to overlook each other's shenannigans, and we would all profit from it.

Administrations just keep recycling the SAME people over and over.. In fact a guy who has been "under the lights" and ascaped with his hide in tact is considered an ASSET to future administrations..:puke:

That's why the crew in office now, is running this ship into the reef..... We LET them get away..

Can you really imagine them having the NERVE to push * at us, if Poppy had been thoroughly discredited and perhaps even charged in Iran-Contra???
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indigobusiness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 07:25 PM
Response to Original message
30. Where are all the hippie chicks?
I love the way they twirl.
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