DU'er please read - not tinfoil hat - they really stole it!

[LTRS]

See Gahanna thread in the voting problems section. It was DU that made this AP story below happen. But the point is that this, and the threads on the Flordia ballots showing huge (and I mean HUGE) numbers of DEMS supposedly voting for Bush in very Dem counties is indicative of wholesale theft of this election! My partner spent hours crunching numbers last night and there is no doubt - they stole FL and they probably stole Ohio as well. Trust me, we are NOT the conspiracy theorist types, and even on Wed I posting here saying "take off the tin foil hat" to people who automatically assumed it was stolen.

But it was. It really was.

I don't know how to post a spreadsheet here, but here is a summary of how they did Florida:

Summary

-- In 13 of 15 touchscreen voting counties in Florida, Dems gained over what would be expected looking at just registration percentages –more than just Dems voted for Kerry in these counties

-- But in only 7 of 52 optical scanner voting counties (15%), Dems gained over what would be expected looking at registration percentages - this seems a little odd

-- In the touchscreen counties, the average gain was 8% over what you would expect based on Dem registration, including all 15 counties

--In the optical scanner counties, the average loss was 16.6% under what you would expect based on dem registration, including all 52 counties

-- If you apply the 8% average plus the expectations based on registration that was seen in the touchscreen counties to the optical scanner counties where we saw losses in the Dem column, it's a total of 281,143.

If you add this number to Kerry’s total, and subtract this number from Bush’s…

Method
Bush Votes
Kerry Votes

Subtotal
Touchscreen
1,845,876
1,982,210

Subtotal
Op-Scan-Precinct
1,950,213
1,445,675

Adjustment

-281,143
+281,143

Corrected Subtotal
Op-Scan-Precinct
1,668,730
1,727,158

Corrected Total
All Methods
3,514,606
3,709,368

And they are simply going to play off every instance in which they were caught as an "oops, sorry, we'll fix that. Don't know how this could have happened!"

If we take this shit, we are purely stupid. Right now, today, we need to spread the word to every blog, every newspaper, and every politician we know personally that we aren't going to give another dime to any Dem candidate until they fix our voting system.

We need to start a movement, and we need to start it today, because the wheels grind slowly. Are you with me?

http://www.ohio.com/mld/beaconjournal/news/state/10103910.htm

COLUMBUS, Ohio - A computer error with a voting machine cartridge gave President Bush 3,893 extra votes in a Gahanna precinct.

Franklin County's unofficial results gave Bush 4,258 votes to Democratic challenger John Kerry's 260 votes in Precinct 1B. Records show only 638 voters cast ballots in that precinct.

Matthew Damschroder, director of the Franklin County Board of Elections, said Bush received 365 votes there. The other 13 voters who cast ballots either voted for other candidates or did not vote for president.

Damschroder said he received some calls Thursday from people who saw the error when reading the list of poll results on the election board's Web site.

[GreenPartyVoter]

1. Well of COURSE they stole it. We all knew they would. 2000 and 2002

set pretty major precedents.

My only hope for this election was that K/E would expose the voter fraud.

And I am still hoping for that.

-----------------------------------------------------------
FIGHT! Take this country back one town and state at a time!
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/electionreform.htm

[Lefta Dissenter]

2. So how many more

'mistakes' are out there??? I want the damned votes counted! and yes, I've given $$ to blackboxvoting.org, but what else can we DO?

[LTRS]

3. You can make it your mission for the next 4 yrs

You can contact every politician, and you can push the blogs to cover it, and you can tell anyone who asks you for money for political campaigns that you aren't giving a dime until they fix the problem.

Politicians are all excited about the internet as a fundraising tool. Tell them you aren't going to give a dime until they fix it.

[rwork]

6. Could we get this

to John Edwards? He was the one who wanted to count every vote.Skinner how do we do this? Can we do the mass email thing?

[Lefta Dissenter]

7. well, I have made it my mission (see my earlier posts)

and, in fact, have written a letter of appreciation to my Town Admin, who ran what I see as a truly fair election here. His goal was to count every vote!!! (what a concept) I worked at my polling place from the time they checked the optical scan machine for its beginning zero balance to the time we read and signed the tapes and boxed up the ballots. When we were two ballots off in our balance at the end of the day, NOBODY even considered leaving the building until we found where the problem was (two absentee ballots had stuck in their envelopes).

I checked our county election board website to be sure that the numbers they had listed there were the exact same as what was reflected on the printout tape on our machine at the end of the day.

When absentee ballots arrived in the mail missing signatures or other information, our Admin made all efforts to track down the voters to resolve the issues. He even drove to the houses of some people, to get some signatures. At the end of the day, only four absentee ballots (out of nearly 1400) had problems that couldn't be resolved and had to be thrown out.

Now that I've seen the process from beginning to end, I agree with those who call for a national election process - it can be SO simple and straightforward - yet that makes it more difficult to steal the votes, doesn't it?

[LTRS]

9. That doesn't fix anything in Florida

And that is where the fraud is taking place in wholesale fashion.

[Lefta Dissenter]

11. No, it doesn't.

However I am of limited power. I worked a 15 hour shift at our polling place so I COULD be assured of the integrity of our system. I worked for ACT so we COULD make sure voters knew their rights. I have written to my reps about these issues - but, of course, they are limited in their power as well. I'm not withholding money from Russ or Tammy or Kohl based on the fact that Florida doesn't have fair elections. Criticizing other people's efforts is not particularly effective - why don't you suggest some concrete steps that can be taken all over the country? You're in WA - how were your elections? And what are you doing about FL?

[LTRS]

14. We are ALL of limited power separately

But together we can do it. First step is someone like Skinner stepping forward and organizing DU on this task. I tell you, I am NOT one for conspiracy theories, but I truly think if you rescanned the opticals with clean machines it would be clear that Kerry won.

Next, I have donated a lot of money to politicians. I know some of them personally. I am going to make sure each of them know about this as well. Lots of people here on DU have connections like that.

BUT FIRST STEP is to get our own folks here on board with the fact that we will never win another election until this problem is addressed.

[wildflower]

26. I think if people listened to Mike Malloy's Wednesday night (11/3) show...

they'd be convinced. I certainly scared the daylights out of me.

-wildflower

[H2O Man]

4. I am convinced that the computer "errors"

gave Bush an election "victory" that he did not earn.

[LTRS]

5. So what are you going to do about it? Nothing?

[H2O Man]

8. Tell me what you are doing?

Tell me your plan: even start with the first five steps that you have, excluding posting on DU.

[LTRS]

10. Well, I have sent this data off to every politician

I know, and that is about five senators and congressional reps - at the risk of them thinking I'm loony. And I am trying to get people here to help us form a plan.

First step is we all need to realize this is happening and then realize that everything else we do is for nothing unless we get this stopped. That's our first challenge. Because until we all rise up those in power will think we are loons and not take it seriously.

[H2O Man]

24. Now that's interesting

and it certainly represents a start, at very least for you. So really you have done a number of things, including: <1> recognizing that the computers were used to steal votes; <2> posted you theory with supporting evidence on DU; <3> sent this information to elected officials; <4> urged others to take up this worthy cause.

I had asked for five, and so I'll add this: <5> asked a rude and rhetorical question of the Water Man .... which implied I was not doing, or going to do, nothing. This indicates you were presuming something in an area that you do not have enough information to venture such a guess. But because your first 4 steps are good, I will overlook that. (grin)

Listen: the most IMPORTANT thing you said was that you run the risk of sounding like a loon. Think about that which you are saying .... and take it forward a few steps .... do you believe, for one minute ....or even for 15 seconds .... that YOU are aware of something that most senators or representatives have NEVER THOUGH OF? My goodness! Please re-think that. Put it in the context of the 2000 election, and tell me that people as intelligent as a Kerry, an Edwards, a Dean, a Gore, or a Clark have NOT consider it?

Isn't the real question what are they thinking about it? And why aren't they talking about it, at least not openly?

But even more important for you -- at least to the exact extent that YOU are going to try to "do something" about this -- is why do you think that a broken system can repair this itself? Is it possible that they ( the greater "they") will think you are foolish NOT for recognizing the problem with computers, but for investing any faith that "they" can fix it for YOU?

My friend, in order to DO more, you must BE more. And not just you: that includes me every bit as much as you. It includes all of us. If we think we have the luxury of waiting two or four years, all the time asking "them" to fix the computers, we've wasted every second of every day of each of those years. In order to do more, we must become more .... and that means building from the bottom up. Taking power at the precincts, the wards, the school and village boards, and working our way up. Until we do that, all the letters and e-mails we send to congress will be limited in power.

What am I going to do? Nothing? No, my actions are not those of a person willing to lie back and do nothing .... or to waste time doing that which gets negative results. I don't believe in losing, and I'm not okay with someone stealing an election. I'm in this fight with you, my friend.

[LTRS]

30. Well I didn't mean to be rude.... I'm just frustrated

I am SO frustrated that folks here aren't mobilizing on this! I could almost cry. It is SO clear to me what happened. How to make others "get it" and join together?

[H2O Man]

42. Oh I understand ....

and of course if I didn't know you are right, or if I were offended by your frustration, I would not be engaged in this most important conversation with you.

One of the little stories that I remember from my decades of employment as a psychiatric social worker might make sense: There are a type of "jumping fleas" that are easily trained by putting them in a jar with a top on it. The fleaslearn that if they jump too high, they bang their heads on the top. Thus, they only jump 2/3rds the height of the jar, which is their safety zone.

Would you agree that much of the democratic party is being run by jumping fleas?

You need to concentrate (actually, WE need to, as I believe in this 100%) on the "locus of control" issue at the grass roots level. We need to make sure that people know they can do things, rather than expecting others to do it for them. And part of that includes timing, and carefully choosing the correct time and place to fight. We need to understand the European concept of "opposition party."

Your frustration is a normal and honest reaction to this situation. But the frustration needs to be replaced with patience. Because with patience, we can climb the mountain. You are on the right track, but it is a difficult one. Be patient, but do not give up. Not at all.

[Nashyra]

13. Here's what I can try and do

Every State had a Dem Chair. Go out get friends and organizations and make your Dem chair get an FOIA and have them demand an audit of every county. If you start from your own county seat this can be achieved. We send letters to the editors to demand an audit, we send letters to congress and state assemblies, and then we use the scare tactic just like the repukes do, if you can't count the votes WHAT HAPPENS IF THERE IS AN ATTACK AND THE VOTERS GET MAD AT *? WHAT HAPPENS IN 2006 AND SOMEONE WE DON'T LIKE TAKES ADVANTAGE BECUASE EVERYONE IS SCARED AND THEY VOTE OUT THE REPUKES AND THE VOTES CAN'T BE COUNTED? It would work, a grassroots effort for paper trails.

[H2O Man]

25. This is a good idea.

I like the idea of coordinating the effort. I'd also suggest moving it down one level, and going to the county democratic chairperson. Start at the grassroots level, the most basic part: the ward, the precinct ..... go from the neighborhood up. Once you get the county chairs on board, you move up to the state chair. Never be so impatient that you skip a level.

[FloridaPat]

45. There are no computer errors. There are only programming errors.

I am a computer programmer. These people who made the machines made ATM machines too.

[UNIXcock]

12. Why is this not one the news anywhere?

... No one is talking about it :wtf:

[LTRS]

15. Why? Because apparently we can't even convince DU

that it's happening. Skinner, it's happening. Look at the data and make a statement here, and let's mobilize.

[Lefta Dissenter]

19. WTF?

Were you not here yesterday? Every other thread was about these issues! It is not Skinner's responsibility to save our elections, it is ours! But, as I said above, criticizing the efforts of people who ARE on your side and who are working on this in their own way is not very helpful.

[LTRS]

22. I am talking about the specific situation in Florida

Sorry if I was unclear before. I think we need to take action on this specific Florida problem. I am telling you, if we rescanned those ballots on clean machines it would show Kerry won.

[H2O Man]

27. I disagree with that ....

I think that you can convince DU. You have a strong case. Do not get at all discouraged because it will take a bit more to get the ball rolling. Listen: you are right. What you are saying HAPPENED. But it is not as easy to fix as just saying "here's the proof" and expecting others to fix it. You are on the right track! You are on the right track! Go with this, but start at the bottom level, and build up. It can be done.

[fryguy]

16. b/c the media has been sedated by the bushies

and are inept at actually pursuing a story - instead relying on talking points....

[H2O Man]

28. great point!

I'll take it a step further: many in the media are willing participants in the subverting of democracy.

[kittenpants]

18. I've sent the Gahanna info out all over Columbus, OH

you should get the most convincing stats together and send them out in your area. It actually worked here and got into the AP news, so try it! Let's at least get attention to this so that even if we can't get Kerry into office, we can remind the public that there are still election problems & maybe get enough evidence for recounts!

[Tom Rinaldo]

17. Email this story to everyone you know. That's how to get it out there

This is a great story to break the ice with. If it happened one place, without explanation, why should we believe it did not happen hundreds of times? Repost both the story and the link. Let's get it into as many mail boxes as possible.

[LiberalAndProud]

20. A major media personality needs to pick this up?

Who in the News as Entertainment business could be convinced? This should not be a partisan issue. If our elections can be tampered with, this is a matter of national security. We are vulnerable to hostile nations, let alone hostile political parties.

[wildflower]

29. Former Democrats & moderates who are on news shows? (Who am I missing?)

George Stephanopoulos?
Paul Begala?

Or moderate/conservative newspeople who came out in favor of Kerry before the election? There were quite a few. Even The American Conservative endorsed Kerry.

ON EDIT: How about Mark Halperin (ABC), Dan Rather, Walter Cronkite, Bill Moyers? Paul Krugman? Sy Hersch?

Anyone else I'm not thinking of?

-wildflower

[LTRS]

31. Now you're talking

I will bet if all the folks here sent this to all their connections (which I have done) we could make something happen. Look what happened less than 24 hrs after a DU poster found the stuff in Oh? It made it into an AP article because we called the papers in Florida.

But won't it take someone like Skinner here to mobilize all of us? Someone to cut through the hundreds of posts and say, DU, let's make sure this sees the light of day?

[wildflower]

37. Yes, putting it on the front page...

or pinning it to the top of forums would help.

And linking it to the list of media contacts and congressmen to make it even easier to do.

I would suggest doing this for the "Starve the Beast" campaign as well.

-wildflower

[LeftHander]

21. KICK! nt

[wildflower]

23. Absolutely--we must contact them all. And for any Republican congressmen,

or other Republicans who say we're just "whining" and that Bush was "fairly elected," we should say:

"Fine. If these elections are fair, you surely won't object to paper, which can be verified, then? Good."

We need to do this if for no other reason than Bush's claims of mandates and will of the people.

I heard what he said (on Mike Malloy last night) when he was talking to reporters. I just couldn't believe it...

Did you hear him say to reporters he is now invoking a "one-question rule" because he has the "will of the people" behind him? We have to stop this!

-wildflower

ON EDIT: We should contact each of the representatives and senators within our state - the Democrats AND the Republicans - with a polite, well-written, but strong message.

For the Republican congressmen, I would appeal to the decency in them as well. In that case I think honey may work better than vinegar. I know this is distasteful, but we need to do whatever it takes. They are the majority and the ones who must realize they need to break away from the madness.

[WisconsonDem]

33. I am embarressed to See This !

www.jsonline.com Return to regular view

Original URL: http://www.jsonline.com/news/metro/nov04/272605.asp


Tire-slashing questions await Democrats' sons
Posted: Nov. 4, 2004
Spivak & Bice



Cary Spivak &
Dan Bice
E-MAIL | ARCHIVE


Police are planning to question the adult children of two prominent Democrats as early as today in the wide-ranging probe into who, early on election day, slashed the tires of 20 vans and cars rented by the Republican Party.

The investigation has already led to the Tuesday arrest of Opel E. Simmons III, a veteran party activist from Virginia in town to work on John Kerry's presidential campaign. Simmons, 33, was released Thursday afternoon without being charged.

Sources told us that police, who are being assisted by the FBI, plan to speak to Michael Pratt, son of former Acting Mayor Marvin Pratt, and Supreme Solar Allah, the son of state Sen. Gwen Moore, who won a seat in the U.S. Congress on Tuesday. Allah's given name is Sowande Omokunde, and he lives in Moore's north side home, according to her campaign finance reports.

Officials declined to say what role the two sons might have played in the incident or what they might know about it. But numerous police sources made it clear that detectives from the police intelligence division want to quiz them soon.

"They will be talked to," one insider said Thursday evening. "Most likely probably tomorrow."


Even though authorities have not talked to his son, sources said, Marvin Pratt has contacted the Police Department to inquire about the case.

The senior Pratt - the chairman of Kerry's Milwaukee campaign - also popped up on the scene Tuesday night when police arrived to arrest Simmons on a vandalism charge. Also witnessing the arrest, sources said, was someone videotaping the bust.

Neither Marvin nor Michael Pratt returned a call or responded to a message left at Marvin Pratt's house. Moore and her son did not respond to repeated calls.

Because of the sensitive nature of the investigation and the possible involvement of the children of two of the area's best-known politicians, sources said, Police Chief Nannette Hegerty called Mayor Tom Barrett on Wednesday to tell him police would be speaking to Pratt and Allah. Barrett defeated Pratt in April.

A spokesman for the mayor's office confirmed Thursday that "the chief has briefed the mayor on the situation." It's standard for the police chief to keep the mayor in the loop when investigating a politically sensitive case.

Milwaukee police are looking to talk with many more people than just the two sons of the prominent pols.

"They'd like to talk to at least five people," said one source familiar with the investigation.

[Hephaistos]

38. Why post that in this thread?

And where is Wisconson? LOL

[WisconsonDem]

44. The Great State On The Great Lakes

We are the state that provides your cheese, your beer and The Green Bay Packers.

[uhhuh]

49. You should be more "embarressed"

by your spelling.

There is a spell check on the bottom.

You can't even spell the name of your home state!

And you are completely off topic

And you posted more of the article than is allowed by the rules.

And you have been alerted on.

[Hephaistos]

32. Not yet completely conclusive

Precinct size is a confounding factor - see this thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1321453

Small, rural precincts tend to have op-scan technology, but also tend to lean heavily repug.

[LTRS]

34. No, we won't know for sure until they rescan some

Or hand count them. That is the only way to know for sure. But 40-50% of registered dems voting for Bush ought to be a hell of a clue, right? Isn't that a news story in and of itself? Sure seems so to me.

[Hephaistos]

35. Pretext?

There has to be some race that was close in order for a recount to be triggered. Any of the counties that deviated strongly would work.

[LTRS]

36. How to get this SPECIFIC issue looked at though?

[Hephaistos]

39. FOIA?

Didn't the media get the 2000 ballots through a FOIA request?

Best if some academic statistician did it, though.

[H2O Man]

43. What are your resources?

Think! What tools do you have available? You have one here -- DU -- but what else? What group of people are very likely to move on this? Do not over look the most obvious! Go with what works, and do not waste time and energy on that which does not work.

Jesse Jackson. Al Sharpton.
Center for Constitutional Rights/666 Broadway/7th Floor/NYC/NY

[LTRS]

46. I have tapped out my resources

I've sent it to the people I know. I want other DU'ers to do the same. I'm not a statistician, but as others have said, someone needs to compare it to the previous voting trends, and see if the precinct level detail and see if there is some other, reasonable, explanation.

[LiberalAndProud]

40. There was a news blurb on NPR today about

voting irregularities that "did not affect the outcome of the election" but need to be addressed.

If there were voting irregularities, how can they be so sure that it did not, in fact, affect the outcome of the election?

Would Bob Woodward look into this? He's not been adverse to scandal-mongering in the past. Are there any investigative reporters left in this country?

Iowa is still too close to call. That is because THEY ARE STILL COUNTING THE VOTES! NM went blue AFTER ALL THE VOTES WERE COUNTED!

[intheflow]

47. Link to NPR story

"State Officials Consider Simplified Voting Systems"
http://www.npr.org/rundowns/rundown.php?prgDate=05-Nov-2004&prgId=3

Scroll down until you see the title, above.

[Nightjock]

41. kick

[Zorra]

48. Silly! The whole purpose behind using electronic voting machines is so

that republicans can use them to commit election fraud and steal elections. Why else would they manufacture, purchase, install and then force people to vote with machines that you can't audit?

Nothing else makes any sense.

Gosh, doesn't everybody already know that?

[Senator]

50. ALL can be UNDONE

It is vital that everyone know that ALL of this treason can be rendered null and void on Jan. 6th 2005.

And we don't need to convince a single judge or election board of anything. No lawyers are required.

Yes, it would be better to reverse this travesty legally and as soon as we can. But we should not be discouraged by those who will continue to try to suppress the truth.

We can and must mount a PR campaign that clearly demonstrates that the elections held in Florida, Ohio, Colorado, New Mexico, New Hampshire, and elsewhere are simply too tainted to be relied upon. There is already sufficient evidence to "create the reality" as the fascists put it.

Our final goal, should nothing else succeed, must be to refuse to allow the Congressional Black Caucus to make a last ditch, futile effort as they did on Jan. 6th 2001.

It was this scene in Fahrenheit 9/11 that most shocked the nation. The one they felt betrayed to not have been informed of. It was by far the most discussed aspect of the movie. And one the DC/Media Analstocracy assiduously ignored, as you would expect.

But the ground has been prepared this time. It took us months to lift the number of those who believed they stole the last election from 16% to over 50% in 2001. It was after that effort that democrats.com planned to host a press conference to announce the first step of impeaching the Felonious Five.

Sadly, the new conference in DC was scheduled for 9-11-01. (cue ominous music)

This time can be different. We can force our "leadership" to show some backbone this time and disallow tainted electors.

In one day ALL can be UNDONE.