All right, DUers, time to get the Bibles out and start studying

[Enraged_Ape]

I am dead serious about this. I am anything but a "Bible-based Christian", but at least I've read the dang thing cover-to-cover. I know a few key quotes chapter and verse, and I win every--and I mean EVERY--throwdown I get into with a born-again nutcase.

If you have no Bible, or if you have one that's old, moldy, and full of dried flower pressings, I would highly recommend the New Living Translation, AKA "The BOOK" or "The Living Bible". It's written in somewhat contemporary language and will at least give you a good idea of the specifics.

I know some of you are Muslim, Buddhist, Taoist, Atheist, Scientologist, Breatharian, Wiccan, or Oprahn (I made that one up), but it matters not a whit. Some of you may just have serious, almost genetic problems with Judao-Christianism. Maybe your terrible parents made you go to a horrible church. Maybe you were abused by your priest. Maybe you absolutely find the whole notion of religion absurd. I sincerely appreciate these issues. I've been there. But at the same time I have to implore you to deal with whatever baggage you have and tough it out. Read the Bible critically if you have to; that's all I'm asking you to do. But read it. And come to know it, in detail.

The Bible is what the opposition bases their whole bizarre religiosocioeconomic worldview on. It is their playbook. Their serious flaw, however, and their glaring mortal weakness, is that they only play the game with each other. They have not one clue about what their own playbook really says, as they have injected centuries of their own prejudices and selfish motivations into it. They have no idea how to effectively fight with their Bible when faced with a real challenger who knows more about the book than they do and CAN PROVE IT. This kind of confrontation is a stinging affirmation that they are not as holy or pious as they think they are, and that, for them, is the worst thing imaginable. It destroys them. I've seen it happen over and over again.

At the risk of drawing the sports analogy out to a tiresome extent, coaches of all sports know that if they want to shut down a formidable opponent in the face of apparently insurmountable odds, they need to discover and analyze their opponents' game plan in detail. This is an arduous, excruciating process. It involves hours and hours of research. But it works. There are ALWAYS weaknesses that can be exploited. NO opponent is perfect.

I know there was an enormous amount of cheating in this election. I know the results are fraudulent. But it cannot be denied that there is a huge "morality" movement that is attributed to this book and is, quite frankly, WRONG. The media won't talk about it. Our candidates won't talk about it. We need to get in the faces of these people on the ground and set them straight. It's a culture war, my friends. Let's use their own weapons, which work so well for them, against them.

And who knows, you might just...maybe...learn something useful in the process.

[PSU84]

1. Trust in JEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESUS!!!

No worries, Mate! God's guiding our Dubya!

[ConservativeDemocrat]

40. NO. DUBYA'S NOT CHRISTIAN

Please don't cede the word "Christian" to the right. They're NOT Christian. Not in any sense of the word. They are the UnChristian right and the American Pharisees.

I outline my arguments better here.

- C.D.

[chelsea0011]

2. "Do unto others, as they would do unto you"

Is the Bush mandate?

[Enraged_Ape]

5. You can say that to a fundie, and it may have some kind...

of effect. But when you tell them it comes from Christ's Sermon on the Mount, Matthew 7:12, you will blow them away.

[Maat]

8. Actually, I tried to take a class in the Bible ...

at my Church of Religious Science (liberal church, like Unitarian). I found out that some Unitarians and some Religious Scientists consider themselves to be Christians. Most congregants do not.

Anyway, I found out that my teacher was one of the rare birds that did consider herself both a Christian and a Religious Scientist.

When she started spouting stuff about the traditional roles of men and women glowingly, I left. Couldn't take it. Never went back.

But you're right. When I find a teacher who is able to teach the Bible from a modern point-of-view, I will study it, so that I can throw the part about Jesus' concern for the poor right in the righteous faces.

[fertilizeonarbusto]

3. Where

do I sign up to be an Oprahn?

[cheezus]

4. Well, from what I hear, Jesus was a cool hippie

but his "followers" have abandoned Christ.

[catmandu57]

6. Carry a copy

that way you can pull it out and unless it's an illiterate, prove your arguement on the spot.
It's the book, so yes let's do our homework.

[Glenda]

7. The problem is...

The fundies don't follow Jesus's example. Jesus hung out with all the questionable people of society, and tried to help them. The people *against* Jesus are a lot like the religious leaders/people today. Jesus was a liberal.

G.

[LiberalAndProud]

9. Yes, but ...

Several days ago there was a thread on DU describing an exchange between Jesse Jackson and Jerry Falwell.

Jerry Falwell took the position of "Kill them! Kill them all!"
Jesse Jackson expressed that he didn't think that was a very Christian attitude. Jerry Falwell was not swayed.

Winning arguments does not necessarily change minds.

[Pacifist Patriot]

14. Not if you're attempting to sway Falwell's mind

However, I have to believe that more easily impressionable people can be swayed away from the more evangelical interpretations of the Bible if they are shown for the nonsense crap that they are. Forget the die hard fundamentalists, work on the more moderate republicans and Christians and you CAN get somewhere. I know, I've succeeded on occasion.

[Enraged_Ape]

18. Sound bites on TV won't be the forum for this

Jackson should have been able to quote the Scriptural references to his position and handed Falwell his a$$. When Falwell countered with a weak salvo Old Testament references, Jackson should have been able to reference enough of the New Testament to counter them. TV doesn't provide enough time for this. This has to be done by US on planes, trains, automobiles, in the line at Sbarro, in the homes of our neighbors, and--I shudder to say it--the churches.

[Pacifist Patriot]

23. Traditional Sunday Schools do an abominable job of teaching

the Bible. They do an excellent job of indoctrination, but very little in terms of understanding it as a library which traces the development of at least nine theologies through time. Liberal Christians need to re-evaluate their religious education programs and make sure their curricula are tailored to developing a full understanding of the biblical heritage by the time a child is through high school. The Bible is an incredibly difficult text yet we toss it's stories at small children with no consideration for proper context.

[Pacifist Patriot]

10. Absolutely. A snippet from my site

People of all faiths or no faith at all must familiarize themselves with the Bible. This library is being routinely misquoted or misinterpreted to justify oppressive and often hypocritical agendas. Please refer to my paper on hermeneutics for reference sources on liberal biblical interpretation. While it may seem uncomfortable and perhaps a little silly, memorize a handful of historical quotes and biblical passages that support the liberal perspective and challenge the conservative. You will be amazed how useful they become.

The paper to which I refer can be found here... http://www.unitarianminister.org/theo_507.htm

[Liberal Veteran]

11. Here's a handful that should help....

On defense :Jesus said "Love your enemies." and "Blessed are the peacemakers." If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:44; 5:9; 5:39.)

On social programs : "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven." (Matthew 19:21.)

On rugged individualism and the pursuit of self-interest : "Love your neighbor as yourself." "So in everything, do to others as you would have them do to you."(Matthew 22:39; 7:12.)

On financial success : "Truly, I say unto you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven." "You cannot serve both God and Money." (Matthew 19:23; 6:24.)

On the philosophy that "greed is good" : "Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; a man's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions." (Luke 12.15.)

On paying taxes : "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's.' (Matthew 22:22.)

On crime and punishment : "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."
"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." (John 8:7; Matthew 7:1,2.)

On money-hungry televangelists : "In the temple courts found men selling cattle, sheep and doves and other sitting at tables exchanging money. So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. (John 2:14,15.)

On the free lunch : "Taking the five loaves and two fish and looking up to heaven, he gave thanks and broke the loaves ... The number of those who ate was about five thousand men ... (Matthew 14.19,21.)

On moral absolutes : "If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out?" "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Matthew 12:11; Mark 2:27.)

On family : "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters - yes, even his own life - he cannot be my disciple." Also : ",Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?' Pointing to his disciples, he said, 'Here are my mother and my brothers.,, (Luke 14:26; Matthew 12:48,49.)

On race relations : In the parable of the Good Samaritan, Jesus praised the morality of a hated foreigner over his own countrymen. (Luke 10:30-37.)

On the superiority of one's native country : "These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions : 'Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.'" (Matthew 10:5,6.)

On letting others pull themselves up by their own bootstraps :When you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will repaid at th resurrection of the righteous." (Luke 14:13,14.)

[wickywom]

12. We have to start picketing thier churches.

[Crunchy Frog]

32. No, we should all join their churches

infiltrate them and sabotage them from within.

[Politicub]

37. That's what I'm doing in Atlanta

It will take a long time to make an impact, but the effort will pay off if a lot of us infiltrate GOP organizations.

[CornField]

13. True fundies (like my extended family) only use KJV

You can't come after them with versus from the Living Bible or other versions... they'll just laugh at you.

[Enraged_Ape]

21. Then get a KJV with a modern concordance or commentary

A lot of Elizabethan words have changed in meaning over the intervening centuries, and that version was translated with the knowledge of the old languages at it was at the time. Much of this has changed. Know what those changes are and point them out to them.

[Yogi]

15. The Jesus I know

is a liberal. The one Dubya bunch follows I don't recognizes.

[Pacifist Patriot]

16. BOOK RECOMMENDATION!

Buehrens, John A. 2003. Understanding the Bible: An Introduction for Skeptics, Seekers, and Religious Liberals. Boston: Beacon Press.

[napi21]

17. Dems reading the bible won't help with anything!

You are trying to make a rational argument to people who aren't rational. Take a few minutes to listen to them. They say they cite the bible, that that's not really the reason they support shrub. Even when someone pushes them into a corner and proves a statement wrong, they ultimat4ely say, I voted for shrub because I like him, I trust him, and he's a good man.

That's something you can't argue with. I actually think this is the real reaason BC won 2 terms. People liked him. It's sad that so many people vote the likability factor, but they do.

[Pacifist Patriot]

22. It depends upon the individual

I shocked the daylights out of a woman when I pointed out a biblical misquote from George Bush and was able to provide the correct verse AND explain how it supported the liberal perspective. She called me after one of the debates and told me she was voting for Kerry because he correctly quoted the Bible that night. You never ever know.

I see nothing wrong with liberals being biblically literate. For one thing, I'm sick of the conservatives having a monopoly over it. I won't let them.

[Enraged_Ape]

25. I never, ever lose an argument with a fundie

They speak their own language. If you don't know that language, you can't make an effective argument with them. It's just impossible. Which is why so many people give up in frustration.

You have to get in their heads. You have to find out what it is they're really afraid of, then use the language of the Bible to show them what to do about it. Supporting the neocon death cult is not the way.

And as far as Bush's supposed "likability", I won't even get into that here. I'm talking about drowning the "morality" mandate in the bathtub and burying it without ceremony under a crossroad.

[Pacifist Patriot]

31. Exactly.

[NoSheep]

19. I too feel this is very important. Our values are based in the

selflessness and good will that is so much a part of the teachings of jesus. Something they SHOULD be able to relate too. (sheep)Unfortunately, we see and we all suffer for their hypocrisy. We need to use their words to get them to see that WE are not the enemy. It is their ignorance that is their enemy.

[LuCifer]

20. I recommend one with a topical index

...or something like "Bible For Dummies", cuz I'll be DAMNED if I read that 2000+ p.o.s. cover to cover!

If you want a bible to read cover to cover, try Anton LaVey's!

Lu

[theHandpuppet]

24. Print this out...

... and nail it to the door of every fundie church you know:

http://userpages.umbc.edu/~greagl1/sermon-on-mount.html

[sangh0]

26. Yep

I think I'm going to start going to Bible classes even though I'm not a Christian

[patricia92243]

27. If signatures are showing now, mine says I feel the Bible is trying to

tell us.

[RPM]

28. I have been...

However, I am always careful to preface any scripture-based argument I make with "I don't believe in the importance of this book, and do not endorse it as the basis of moral code or civil law...." then go on to point out how the book says A and they are doing B.

Had some asshat who was singing the praises of Scalia at a wedding rehersal dinner this summer insist that the bible was not to be interpreted literally... you can imagine where things went from there.

[merh]

29. Here is a link to a great bible site --

It has every translation available and quick and easy passage look up and search!

http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible

I recommend you all put this in your favorites - a very easy resource to utilize.

There is also this site: http://www.studylight.org/

And for those who love to discuss religious tolerance, this resource is great. http://www.religioustolerance.org/
It contains a great number of essays and studies that are enlightening.

Use the internets! ;-)

[GreenPartyVoter]

30. please visit the Chrisitanity page of my site

-----------------------------------------------------------
FIGHT! Take this country back one town and state at a
time!
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/

[seabeyond]

33. it isnt in the bible it is in the heart

progressive by the being they are already know it. it is the bible screwing things up. hey example,.........(my boys go to a fundie school, they know the bible so i ask them where to find)

minister preaching in chapel for hour a thursday ago, kerry is a murder. up on pulpit to all children.

my child i say, doenst it somewhere that the most vile of sin is rumor. dont they hold that way up their rumor and slander. yup says son. whenever you feel ugly in what they quote, you know they interpret it thru man, not spirit. just grab the quote and you will see the grace in it. and stick with new testament. christ conscious, which isnt even a man...........they so dont get christ, lol

[Enraged_Ape]

34. I too, would suggest at least starting with the New Testament...

since most people will probably tune out in disgust by the time they reach Leviticus.

But you've eventually got to read the Old Testament. This is where most of the "angry God who smites his enemies" garbage comes from.

Here's a little secret about the Bible: It is a story about the many ways people tried to get closer to God and failed due to their own human foibles, only to succeed finally with the delivery of the "Good News" by Jesus. The Old Testament is all about the FAILURES! We need to be able to point this out the fundies and show them why, but more importantly we need to know what in the heck we are talking about when we do it.

[seabeyond]

35. Leviticus.

i have to keep asking my son this name. never can say it right. yes the divorce shellfish and homosexuality........all sins. asked sons teacher as she held up the bible when i was talking to her about the movie passion, last spring. passion is what inflamed the passion. this is when i saw the hate come into this school. anyway i say, you feel homosexsuality is such a sin, do you equally see this in shell fish. about knocked her soxs off.

ya.,.......i like the way you interpret the old testament. hadnt seen it in that way, just saw it in such anger. everytime i started to read, told my mom, this is not the god i know. the angry fearful god. that was when she directed me to the new testament

[seabeyond]

36. pre k in my kids school and then thruout

the first quote they feed the kids, adn give to them time and again, we are all sinners. i would look it to my precious babies eyes and say, what sin, what..where is that sin. i see none. what are they talking.

feeding on a regular basis you are a sinner, and people are going to have to create their sinner self to make the statement true

[flygal]

38. You know, I studied the bible a little -

SCARED THE SHIT OUT OF ME - I didn't sleep for a week! It was more violent than Reservoir Dogs!!

[catbert836]

39. My favorite verse

"He that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live, and whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die."

[democratreformed]

41. Hey, I went to a Christian college - Harding University.

Had to take mandatory Bible classes. I think I could "fit back in" for the right reasons. Right now, my thinking is that the only right reason for me would be to divide the congegration by spouting my mouth off.

[Maeven8pol]

42. W was just USING the fundies........

You don't believe that he's REALLY into religion??? Now that he has his 4 more years and is completely unaccountable to ANYONE....what does HE CARE about Cal Thomas????