Are progressive snobs?

[lupita]

could it be that WE put down conservatives so much, that we are not connecting with them?
I am just trying to understand what happened. Losing was a shock to me because I never thought people could vote for someone that stupid.

But, it may be, that we should study ourselves a little.

Lupita

[sangh0]

1. Yes

Very snobby

[DireStrike]

2. No. They put us down more.

They do it so much that we are proposing things like this.

We need to put them down more because they are wrong.

And we need media megaphones to do it with.

[sangh0]

7. That doesn't mean we're not snobs too

It just means they're bigger snobs. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Even children know that.

[DireStrike]

27. Bull.

One wrong makes a murder.
Two wrongs makes a fight to the death.

Which is preferable here? Our message is not getting out because democrats "eat babies" and people are not willing to consider anything beyond the scandalous talking points thrust forward.

[sangh0]

33. Pretty incoherent

One wrong makes a murder.
Two wrongs makes a fight to the death.

That has nothing to do with whether there are snobs on the left.

Which is preferable here?

Whichever is preferable, it still doesn't mean there aren't snobs on the left.

Our message is not getting out because democrats "eat babies" and people are not willing to consider anything beyond the scandalous talking points thrust forward.

And again, that doesn't mean that there are any snobs on the left.

[DireStrike]

34. You totally missed my point.

I don't know or care how many snobs are on the left. We need agressive propaganda to fight theirs.

Would you say John Kerry was a snob? He tried his best to appeal to everyone. IT DIDN'T WORK, and he got branded as a traitor by the equivalent of snobs on their side.

[sangh0]

36. Yes, I did miss the point because it was incoherent,

and now that I understand what it is, I see it's also irrelevant. Its just more of the "Well they're snobs", that doesn't answer the question that was actually asked. In the hopes you might give a response that's relevant to subject matter, I'll remind you that the question was about snobbery on the left. No one here disputes that there's snobbery on the right.

We need agressive propaganda to fight theirs.

Well, duh

Would you say John Kerry was a snob? He tried his best to appeal to everyone. IT DIDN'T WORK, and he got branded as a traitor by the equivalent of snobs on their side.

So don't you think the repukes ability to misportray Kerry as a traitor might have something to do with how people perceive liberals?

[DireStrike]

37. I don't see any correlation between their perception of things and reality

And the point hasn't been made here at all.

[sangh0]

38. So you don't see it, therefor it must not exist?

Do you see the flaw in your logic?

And the point hasn't been made here at all.

LOL!

[DireStrike]

39. All that's been said here is "maybe liberals are snobs"

That's not a point, that's an accusation.

[sangh0]

41. You meant in this thread?

Since when is there a requirement that all threads contain a reference to the right's snobbery?

This thread is about progressive snobbery. Are you always so rude that you have hijack EVERY discussion?

[DireStrike]

49. HIJACK? Right snobbery?!? WTF are you talking about?

I've abandoned my position that "they are as snobbish as us" long long ago. Are you in the same conversation with me?

All I've been saying for the past 3 or 4 posts is that so far, NOBODY has proven a significant amount of progressive snobbery, nor has it been shown that this is costing us points among the right. How can it?

If you don't have anything stronger than "maybe liberals are snobs and maybe it's costing us because maybe they're listening and don't like us", you need to stop. Stop pressing points that you have no facts to back up.

Show one instance of a right winger claiming liberals are snobs BASED ON THE ACTIONS OF LIBERALS, and not some claim that Rush made.

[sangh0]

50. Here's the conversation

The OP asked "Are progressive snobs?"

Your answer was "No, because they do it more"

Show one instance of a right winger claiming liberals are snobs BASED ON THE ACTIONS OF LIBERALS, and not some claim that Rush made

That is very naive. People obviously don't vote based on provable claims, or else they wouldn't have voted for bush*.

[DireStrike]

53. Which is exactly my point!

IT DOESNT MATTER IF WE ARE SNOBS.

[sangh0]

55. Not the question

The question was "Are progressives snobs?" and after more than a dozen posts, you still have a problem answering that simple question.

[DireStrike]

56. That question is irrelevant.

We both seem to agree. Why are you asking me to answer it?

[sangh0]

59. It's what the thread is about

which sort of makes it relevant

[DireStrike]

60. A question about whether a conversation is relevant

is a part of the conversation. By asking whether the question is well founded, I'm still participating in that discussion.

So says me anyway.

[freetobegay]

3. No.

But the wannabe's are!

[bryant69]

4. There is an element of that

Particularly when it comes to religion, but in general, as well. That was one of the real strengths of Bill Clinton was that he didn't come off that way.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[rinsd]

5. In here? Yes....

But its kind of natural. This is the place where people come to vent so it can take a decidely uncivil tone. No big deal that;s part of the reason this place exists.

That said, I hope that most of the viritrol is a DU and not how people walk around in public life.

[TexasSissy]

6. A bit. But conservatives are "holier than thou." So it sorta evens out.

BTW....I don't think the majority of Americans DID vote for *.

[Cobalt Violet]

8. Understand that we were robbed of our rightful victory.

And we should study how to not get robbed again.

[Sparkly]

9. I keep hearing things like that, but

it seems to me anybody who doesn't have a Southern accent seems to be resented by the so-called "mainstream" in the South as a "snob."

If you're not a white male good ol' boy, they think you're "talking down" to them, or so I've heard. Is there an inferiority complex here? I don't know.

I'm just disgusted that we have to *always* run white male southerners. I sure was looking forward to at LEAST having a president who's a New Englander for a change. I think this may destroy any chances for a woman to run for a long time, also.

[sangh0]

13. If you're not a snob

then why do you care if the candidate is from the south or the northeast as long it was a Dem that did a decent job of representing you and running the country?

[Sparkly]

16. I would just like equal opportunity, that's all

I'd like to think a New Englander has an equal shot at the office. I don't like hearing, once again, that Democrats have to run a southerner and nothing else.

[sangh0]

19. If it's equal opportunity that concerns you

I suggest you repeat that over and over, and not focus on geography. If you have a candidate that promotes equal opportunity, would geography really be that important?

[Sparkly]

22. That's true

I have no problem voting for southerners.

I have a problem with southerners being so unwilling to vote for New Englanders that we have to keep a maxim that "Democrats must run Southerners."

That's my response to the "snob" question. TV Talking Heads immediately ran out Wednesday morning to say people didn't like Kerry because southerners consider northeastern Democrats to be elitist snobs.

It would be nice if there were equal opportunity for the presidency, at LEAST to the point where we can choose candidates from the full range of the country's geography.

[sangh0]

23. Ahhhh

I have a problem with southerners being so unwilling to vote for New Englanders that we have to keep a maxim that "Democrats must run Southerners."

I'm a big fan of qualified statements that are clear about who we're talking about. IMO, we often appear snobby because we aren't clear enough about who we're talking about. Thanks for being so gracious.

[MrChupon]

10. Well look at the reverse

Are YOU voting for Dems because you are mad at all the right wing talk hosts looking down on us? Or do you vote for progressive causes because you believe in them?

I dont think republicans are any different. I don't buy the arguement that if we were just nice and understanding, that all of a sudden folks in the South would be like "hey, gay marriage ain't so bad after all".

But who knows...

[Cat Atomic]

11. Fuck that. Republicans and Fundamentalists are the snobs.

Republicans argue for social Darwinism, and Fundamentalists are so stupendously arrogant that they actually believe they have a direct line to the Creator. Conservatives regularly talk about the "real America" that exists in the middle of the country, but not on the coasts.

THAT is arrogance.

I had lunch yesterday with a few Longshoremen friends, and they're no snobs. They're all dyed-in-the-wool liberals. That's what I think of when I think of the left.

[KC21304]

18. Absolutely. Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton were elected

widely by the whole country. The people who said " Mass. Liberal " are the snobs.

[sangh0]

21. Are the people who say "religious idiots" snobs?

Or is it OK when we do it?

[KC21304]

46. I have never and would never use that term.

I'm saying that anyone who says Kerry is a snob because he is from Mass. and a liberal is themselves a snob.

[Swamp Rat]

24. Correction: Fascist, nationalist snobs.

[PSU84]

12. Are conservatives

ignorant, slack-jawed bible-thumping, inbred, redneck, racist, chest-thumping, perennially duped yokels?

Not all of them.

[sangh0]

14. Look at the responses you've gotten

Most of the responses ignore your question to say "They're the snobs". Others, in a slight show of introspection, admit to some snobbery, but then excuse it because "they do it too/more/worse"

[Qanisqineq]

28. sorry, posted to wrong place!

:)

[skypilot]

15. This "snob" things sounds to me...

...as though some are buying into/absorbing the right's propoganda about people on the left being "elitist". I am a black, gay male. I am not rich. I don't wear designer labels and I don't drink lattes. I just recognize obnoxious, hateful people when I see them and I just don't like them. That is not snobbery.

[knowbody0]

17. yes and intolerant

demanding truth and the inside of the inside.
the other side believes the media because the media is a fine tuned machine skilled at controlling the masses. lies told and re told become fact deep in the mind. subliminal control really works. seeing through the facade renders one outside the spin where it is difficult to walk. face it. you must be brave to have your own thoughts. where we fail with them is with our attitude toward them.yelling and name calling. i sent some photos of dead civilians along with a petri dish to show the obscenity of the "values" propaganda. de -programing is a slow process. seeds of thought must be planted in a way that they will sprout. we give them weeds that threaten their crop-they immediately kill them. we must find a way to enlighten our fellow americans.we failed there. i am sure that we will broaden our skills now that the pressure is off. it is my mission.

[rndmprsn]

20. Values were what killed us

Not the lack of...but the lack of effectively communicating them...not having over-arching strategies that pull together single issues under shared/common values, not having our own wedge-issues and there could have been many...the environment, birth tax (deficits), etc and letting their wedge issues go un-challenged...guns, gays and God, letting the repubs frame the debate and controlling the message...this put us in a defensive position against ghastly Owellian policies, no child left behind, clean-skies and ugh, healthy-forests etc...

In short, working-poor rural voters were scared of us and didn't trust us...they know that we look down on them (I am guilty of this too) and they never got our message that we share their values...hard work, fairness, responsibility, personal freedom, and opportunity.

unless we can reach these people, who are our natural allies...we will always lose...period.

[lupita]

26. I totally agree with you

and the reason why I posted this, is because I was talking to a fellow Democrat, who told me that he sees a lot of us as looking down of the right. He believes that that is where one of our problems is.

[Qanisqineq]

32. EXACTLY. This is what I have been trying to say

it isn't so much that they don't agree with abortion or are afraid we will ban the Bible,... "they know that we look down on them".

BINGO. This is basically what I tried to say in my other post in this thread.

[deutsey]

40. That's why we should follow George Lakoff's lead

and begin reframing the national debate in terms that connect with working people again.

Look him up on the Internet and read his stuff.

[sangh0]

42. Lakoff's the bomb

He should be REQUIRED reading

[sonicx]

25. Every group has snobs. Every group has people who put down others...

not in the group. This isn't a new phenom.

[SmokingJacket]

29. We think we're right, but so do they.

Frankly, I think they're waaaaaaay nastier to us. Look how long it took us to start a talk radio network? Like ten years after Limpballs had been snorting and laughing and putting down "latte-sipping liberals."

Why are our insults always called "condescending" but theirs aren't? They certainly think they're better than us in every way.

[Qanisqineq]

30. to some extent

we seem to put down "rednecks", "stupid" people, and other groups that would benefit more from liberal policies. we put down christians. we need to stop all this and be true liberals -- tolerant of other people's beliefs. if they feel alienated by us, they will never listen to us and our views on how to run this country.

[AG78]

31. We're all just

part of the human freak show.

[deutsey]

35. Yeah, my working class roots have made me a very snobby person

:eyes:

[sangh0]

43. So the working class can't be snobby?

That sounds like "black people can't be racist"

I guess the history books are wrong. The white working class in the south during the 1860's did NOT look down on blacks.

Who knew?

[deutsey]

52. Nope. We can't be snobby.

Next question.

[sangh0]

58. No we can't

We're too good to be snobby.

But those other people!!! They're not as good as we are.

[amazona]

44. we're not snobs

Conservatives are just not as intelligent on average than liberals. I believe there was a study to that effect just released, but we already know it from day to day experience. Less intelligent people have less ability to develop the emotional intelligence and the range of imagination needed to have empathy for other people. When an injustice happens to someone else, the person with a wider imagination can't help but feel a twinge of, There but for the Grace of God go I. Whereas the stupid person of limited imagination can't possibly picture such a thing happening to them, so they shrug it off. They don't see where they would need rights and protections because they don't think they need them until it's too late.

This is something that is in the nature of things and is never going to change. There will always be people of greater and lesser ability to think and to empathize. We can "study ourselves" all we like, we are not going to change the laws of gravity or human nature.


This is a generalization, of course, I realize that. There are liberals who don't strike me as having very much upstairs, say, Prince Charles so I don't pick on any Americans. But, let's be honest. For every stupid liberal, we can name whole boatloads of stupid conservatives.

I don't see how blaming ourselves for their lack is going to help matters any.

On edit-- I guess on re-reading this message, it sounds kinda snobby. But I don't think it is snobby to acknowledge if you are actually superior.

[sangh0]

57. "it sounds kinda snobby"

Yes, it "sounds kinda snobby" though I'm sure you're not a snobby person.

Now imagine you're not a non-snobby liberal reading what you just wrote. Imagine you're a Bible-thumping radically right Christian fundamentalist.

How snobby does it sound to you now?

[Q]

45. Turn the question around...

...could it be that THEY put us down so much that they are not connecting with us?

- The left has been trampled on for a decade by the likes of Limbaugh and Gingrich.

- Gingrich even came up with a list of 'negative' words for conservatives to use to smear and demonize Democrats. Take a look at that list sometime and tell me where the negativity began.

- Perhaps conservatives should study themselves sometimes? But they're not very good at introspection or self-awareness. Not because they don't have the ability...but because they simply think they're 'superior' and don't believe it's necessary.

- Who in the hell could be more 'snobby' than GWB* or Cheney* or Ashcroft* or Limbaugh or DeLay or any of the dozens of representatives of the GOP?

- It seems that we're always the ones forced to compromise with the conservatives. But considering their fearless leader Bush* now insists he has a 'mandate' to ram their agenda down our throats...don't count on us playing nicey nice any time soon.

[Heyo]

47. Labeling a whole group of people as snobs...

.. is an over-generalization.

People of any stripes, right or left, who think that their's is the only viewpoint that matters, are snobs.

Heyo

[GRLMGC]

48. Oh shit

I'll admit i'm a snob. I'm trying to get over myself. I've actually learned a lot about stereotyping people this year and I'm getting better. I hope that I get over it. I don't think most progressives are snobs however. I just think they're so convinced that there's no way to reach out to rural voters that they don't even try to targe them. This needs to change.

[skypilot]

51. You have to admit...

...that it's a bit difficult to target them considering the state of our media these days. We'll need alot more AirAmericas.

[GRLMGC]

54. true

I mean, its clear that the mainstream media isn't gonna be helpful. I also think a grassroots effort is the best way to target people.