And so Fallujah gets to die.

[anarchy1999]

Stand proud everyone, we let it happen.

[Dookus]

1. no

we fought it, but lost. I know how this pains you, but we can't stop it now.

[anarchy1999]

73. I've sent a call out to Rahul of www.empirenotes.org

This man went into Fallujah in April of 2004. God, it seems so long ago. Please, Don't quit, and please let us not give up. We have a responsibility to save this town.

Also check Robert Jensen, I just got off the phone with him. We are responsible.

[LisaL]

2. We did everything we could to not let it happen.

[el_gato]

4. no we didn't

[tridim]

3. My hands are clean

I did everything humanly possible to stop this madman. So, obviously I disagree with your statement.

[el_gato]

5. if you did everything humanly possible you would be either dead or in jail

stop kidding yourself about the sacrifices you have made

the people in faluja are going to die now
you are going to continue living in the comfort of conditioned air and plentiful food

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

6. Might I respectfully suggest...

That you not point your finger at those who gave much and lost, in the desire to keep that from happening?

Give credit where credit is due. Same with blame.

[el_gato]

11. just telling it like it is

There are a number of people who have made incredible sacrifices.
However, there is no use in pretending that our efforts to stop this
are comensurate with the misery that the people of falluja are going to go through. There is just no comparison.

[theHandpuppet]

18. Sadly, I have to agree

And must live with my share of the guilt.

[cali]

24. Exactly.

There's no comparison. It's an idiotic comparison. Go cheney yourself, you self-righteous prig.

[el_gato]

32. I include myself in this as well

[tridim]

13. If that's what you think,

then please kindly go to hell.

I loudly protested the BS war in Iraq from the very beginning. Bush is murdering people in Falluja, and you are blaming me? Believe whatever you want about yourself, but my hands are clean.

[el_gato]

36. I'm not blaming you so get off your high horse

I'm just pointing out the fact that if you did everything that was humanly possible the government would have gunned you down by now.
You cannot compare standing on a street corner with a sign to the
death and destruction that the people of falluja are subject to.

[tridim]

68. Yes you are. By blaming us, you're blaming me.

Do you also blame the Vietnam protesters for the murders in Vietnam? I wasn't around then, but I would have stood shoulder to shoulder with them. I guess that effort would have been worthless in your opinion.

Just because I didn't get shot for expressing my views, doesn't mean my views are worthless. If they killed me dead, Bush would still murder the people of Falluja, because HE DOESN'T CARE WHAT I THINK.

[el_gato]

77. whatever

seems like you have a hard time dealing with the moral implications of all of this. that's okay, in fact that is a good thing.
just don't pretend your sacrifice is somehow equivalent to the price the people of falluja are about to pay.

[tridim]

87. I NEVER said my sacrifice was equal to the people of Falluja

You said that.

[sandnsea]

28. Writing from prison or the grave?

Hmmm????? God I love self-righteous people who aren't doing anything more than anybody else. Fuck you.

[el_gato]

38. see post #32

there is just no use in pretending that we did everything that is humanly possible. we did not and that is a fact.

[Blue_Tires]

84. short of picking up a rifle and joining the insurgency

what else could i have done? i've voted, I've marched, and told everyone i know how wrong the war is...

[RBHam]

7. The Warsaw Massacre updated

CNN and MSNBC have been breathlessly awaiting the slaughter.

[anarchy1999]

15. You and I met a couple of years ago, "Something is happening here"

so nice to see you back. I posted it first. We ran headlong into each other. You are far better and write it all so well. We miss you lots.

[Karenina]

17. When asked how I feel

I say, "Go ask Omi und Opi, they will know."

GOOD to see you, ALL GOOD THINGS to you and yours! :loveya: :hi:

[Minstrel Boy]

8. A White Rose for Fallujah

On the eve of the United States Marines' campaign to cure Fallujah of the "cancer" of resistance, I've taken the liberty of making small revisions to the fourth, fifth and sixth leaflets of the White Rose, the clandestine anti-Nazi student resistance cell:


A Call to All Americans!

The war is approaching its destined end. It has become a mathematical certainty that Bush is leading the United States into the abyss. Bush cannot win the war; he can only prolong it. The guilt of Bush, Cheney, Rumseld and their minions goes beyond all measure. Retribution comes closer and closer.

But what are the American people doing? They will not see and will not listen. Blindly they follow their seducers into ruin. "Whatever it takes!" is inscribed on their banner. "Mission accomplished," says Bush, but in the meantime the mission has already been lost.

Americans! Do you and your children want to suffer the same fate that befell the souls of Abu Ghraib? Do you want to be judged by the same standards as your tyrants? Are we to be forever a nation which is hated and rejected by all mankind? No. Dissociate yourselves from blind thuggery masquerading as patriotism. Prove by your deeds that you think otherwise. A new war of liberation must begin, and the better part of the nation will fight on our side. Cast off the cloak of indifference you have wrapped around you. Make the decision before it is too late. Do not believe the propaganda which has driven the fear of Islam into your bones. Do not believe that America's welfare is linked to perpetuating the lies of the "War on Terror" for good or ill. A criminal regime cannot achieve a just victory. Separate yourselves in time from everything connected with the machineries which would enslave you and dull your wits. In the aftermath a terrible but just judgement will be meted out to those who stayed in hiding, who were cowardly and hesitant.

Every word that comes from Bush's mouth is a lie. When he says peace, he means war, and when he blasphemously uses the name of the Almighty, he means the power of evil, the fallen angel, Satan. His mouth is the foul-smelling maw of Hell, and his might is at bottom accursed. True, we must conduct a struggle against the fraudulent terrorist state with rational means; but whoever today still doubts the reality, the existence of demonic powers, has failed by a wide margin to understand the metaphysical background of our struggle. Behind the concrete, the visible events, behind all objective, logical considerations, we find the irrational element: The struggle against the demon; against the servants of the Antichrist.

What can we learn from the outcome of this war - this war that never was a necessary or just war?

The wicked Bush doctrine must be shattered for all time. The radical right must never again be allowed to assume power. Only in large-scale cooperation among the nations of the world can the ground be prepared for mutual security. Every nation and each individual has a right to the goods of the whole world, and each the responsibility to be good stewards thereof.

"Freedom" and "democracy"! For four long years Bush and his cabal have manhandled, squeezed, twisted, and debased these two splendid American words to the point of nausea, as only dilettantes can, casting the highest values of a nation before swine. They have sufficiently demonstrated in their years of destruction of all material and intellectual freedom, of all moral substance among the American people, what they understand by freedom and democracy. The frightful bloodbath should open the eyes of even the stupidest American - it is a slaughter which they arranged in the name of bringing "freedom" and "democracy" throughout the Middle East, and which they daily start anew. The name of the United States is dishonored for all time if American youth does not finally rise, take revenge, and atone, smash its tormentors, and found a new republic based upon the dead republic's principals.

Americans! The world looks to us. As in 1776 it saw us shake off the yoke of tyranny, so in 2004 it looks to us to smash the fascist terror by the power of our just cause. Iraq is burning in the East. The dead of Fallujah implore us to take action.

Up, up, my people - let smoke and flame be our sign!
http://rigorousintuition.blogspot.com/

[Swamp Rat]

26. What can we do?

I will throw into the gears of this Fourth Reich the proverbial monkey wrench. I will allow no right wing nutjob any peace with their hallow victory. I will challenge every one of them in everything they do and say.

Baby killers. Cowards. Anti-Christs!!!

None will be allowed to enjoy the fruits of their labours because the foundation of their success rests on the pedestals of Hatred, Bigotry, Greed, Violence and MURDER! I'm gonna challenge every Bush supporter who opens their big, fat mouth and demand to know why they are not fighting in Iraq. No excuses for age, sex, physical condition or even disabilities... even a 50 yr old, one-armed, one-eyed freeper can sling hash in a mess hall in Iraq. NO EXCUSES!

[kimchi]

9. No, WE tried to stop it.

Please blame the enablers of the slaughter. It isn't us.

[anarchy1999]

10. Kick to the top, we are responsible.

n/t

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RBHam]

16. Not tough enough to slaughter innocents?

Are you a moron?

[ncbiker]

20. Our military

does not seek to kill innocents and you damn well know it. Keep thinking the way you do and our CHILDREN will continue to be ruled by Repugs.

[RBHam]

34. "Just following orders" is no justification for war crimes...

The War is illegal. There was no connection between 9-11 and Iraq. None. And every soldier there now knows it - they can read newspapers.

Do you get it yet?

100,000 dead Iraqis. Mostly women and children.

Think about it.

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

39. All I have to say to that is..

The roof...the roof...the roof is on fire.

Think on it, and you might understand it.

[atreides1]

88. "...does not seek to kill innocents..."

And your evidence to prove this is where???

So they drop a bomb on a restaurant in a residential neighborhood, hoping that they can catch one man, and when they kill the people in the houses/apartments that are near this restaurant, they call it collateral damage.

By the way in case you missed it, at a memorial service for some Marines that have been killed, their sweet, innocent, loving buddies,
promised to get revenge and burn Fallujah to the ground. So that shows the intent of at least the USMC about killing innocents.

And agree with you there are bad, bad, people there, some are in the city and we call them insurgents. But the majority are surrounding the city and they are called Marines.

[RaleighNCDUer]

89. The Marines are not bad, though their presence there is.

It is just like Vietnam, where they are plopped down in an alien culture, which has been demonized by their leaders, and they can't tell friend from foe. There are people shooting at them and they are mostly just scared kids and are more than ready to shoot back at any perceived threat.

Don't blame it on the Marines. Even the most hardcore of the Corps would rather be home.

Blame the people that sent them there and put them in this situation.

Yes, there probably are a few, just like those few that Kerry described in Vietnam, who deliberately commit crimes in the war zone just because it is a war zone and they can get away with it. They are the same ones who, if not there, would be committing crimes back home or wherever they are stationed. But most the atrocities, like shelling an entire block to get at three guys with AKs, or shredding an approaching car whose confused driver didn't understand the order to stop, are systemic, not personal. That will only stop when we get our troops out, or when the troops themselves refuse to follow orders.

Support the troops. Bring them home.

[Goldmund]

19. "bad, bad people..."

Cut your heads of in a sec...

Go to hell dude.

[rockydem]

23. There are people like that in there

If you don't think there are your head is in the sand.

[Goldmund]

33. Listen

You're so fucking far from anything I would consider reason that I don't want to have this discussion. So go the fuck ahead and use the "bad, bad people" in Fallujah who would "cut off your head in a sec" as an excuse to cut off hundreds of thousands of heads in a sec.

[rockydem]

47. "as an excuse to cut off hundreds of thousands of heads"

If we raze the city it will be a crime. I agree too. What I want you and some other DUeres to realize is that Zarqawi and his types are not good people. And that they represent an ideology that must be opposed.

Fallujah will probably be a disaster. A horrible disaster. It will be a moral failure as well as a tactical failure.

But that still doesn't change the fact that Zarqawi and his beheading buddies are evil monsters.

[Goldmund]

49. As I said, too far from reason

"Zarqawi and his types are not good people"

I never said anything about Zarqawi. This has nothing to do with Zarqawi.

If what the news reports say about him are true, then yes, he's bad, bad people.

[ncbiker]

52. IF......

he's a bad guy???

[Goldmund]

54. Can you read?

[rockydem]

57. Zarqawi and his network should be targeted

This Fallujah assault however will probably be a disaster. We shall see.

But hey props to you for at least admitting that he even exists. There are some on here that think he's either CIA or phony.

[ncbiker]

62. Come on now...

Nobody here thinks he's a CIA stooge.

[rockydem]

71. You stay here long enough

you'll find that some do. In fact, there have been times I've been straight-up outnumbered by them. Some here don't even think Bin Laden's real. You press them and they start talking about the evil CIA or some other nefarious thing...

Jihadists terrorists exist. They are assholes. They should be opposed. The question is what are the best tactics to use.

But the notion that they aren't even real is just ludicrous and maddening.

[Goldmund]

79. See, I do believe he exists

though I don't know how much of the story is true. I think that it's only healthy -- after all that's happened -- to not swallow anything you're served without a grain of salt.

That said, I think that this whole emphasis on the "jihadists" being "assholes" and "bad, bad people", "evildoers", and all of that stuff -- is totally, utterly, tragicaly misplaced.

It matters none how bad exactly they are. The goal of any action should be to effect the best -- or the least bad -- consequences for the most people possible. Period. Catching "evildoers", "blowin'em up", "punishing them", etc, etc -- is only relevant if it can yield a favorable result. Meaning, less death and misery in the world.

So, instead of stressing how "bad, bad" Zarqawi is, if you support this action -- which I'm not sure you do -- your argument needs to rest on proving, or indicating at least, that there will be less death, less misery, more progress and more life. Not on how bad Zarqawi is. I don't really care.

[rockydem]

21. I agree to a certain extent

Fallujah is filled with thugs and killers. I just wonder who will also pay the price.

It just goes back to the initial questions: was this particular war worth it? Is it winnable? Or are we in a quicksand that for every battle we 'win' we still 'lose' in the end?

Believe me I want those Zarqawi types killed. They are evil brutal thugs. But are we fighting them in the right way? I don't know. I have serious doubts. And there's nothing that has happened in the last year that has eased those doubts, in fact my doubts have only grown.

It isn't a question of goals, it's a question of tactics.

[Don Claybrook]

37. tell me more about Zarqawi and the evil brutal thugs

Who are they? Who is this Zarqawi? Tell me what you know about his existence, and about what he's done (don't forget to source your material, please). What thugs are in Fallujah? What makes them thugs? What did they do? Where are they from?

I can see that you're wise in the ways of Fallujah and I want you to tell me more.

[rockydem]

51. If you don't think they are real

Then I consider you beyond help. I consider you to be out of touch with reality.

The evidence is real, if you refuse to see it, then I consider you unworthy of dialouge.

[Don Claybrook]

53. What evidence are you talking about?

Who are they?

I'm waiting to see this evidence, because I SO want to be worth of speaking with you, if only from the area around your feet.

So come on, reality boy, cut me some slack. Tell me of this evidence of which you speak, these REAL "they's" you're referring to.

Thanks so much.

[rockydem]

60. forget it

TO. FAR. GONE.

[Goldmund]

61. Why is that?

Because he doesn't swallow the kool-aid from the TeeVee without asking what the ingredients are?

Were you telling people in March 2003 who were saying that there are no WMDs in Iraq that they are "TO. FAR. GONE."?

[rockydem]

64. Were was I?

I was opposed to the invasin of Iraq. I knew they were lying to us. Another reason I was opposed was because I knew it would give two-bit thugs like Zarqawi an international platform. And it has. This guy has a history. He has a trail you can follow. The Iraq war emboldened him. The videos are real. Journalists who have been in Fallujah can see what's going on. All the international media takes him seriously, including the ME media.

[Don Claybrook]

63. I think you're looking for the adverb "too", not the preposition "to".

Nonetheless, I'll assume you have no idea what you're talking about, as you don't wish to discuss anything of substance.

Have a nice afternoon, and a nice 4 more years.

[rockydem]

66. Good luck believing everything

is some kind of CIA plot and that the whole of the world's media is lying to us about the existence of people like Bin Laden and Zarqawi.

[Benhurst]

92. What does "To.Far.Gone." mean?

[RaleighNCDUer]

90. Fallujah is not filled with thugs and killers.

It is filled with women and kids and guys who just want to be left alone, and sprinkled among them are maybe a couple thousand jihadists.

Leveling Fallujah to get at the jihadists would be like leveling Durham to smoke out the Crips. The vast majority of the population has nothing to do with them, but they will suffer. Maybe the jihadists brought this on themselves, but Aunti Um down the street sure didn't.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

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[Don Claybrook]

41. Thanks for saving me the trouble :) n/t

[theHandpuppet]

45. Ah, this message has been brought to you by...

... someone with 34 posts to their name here. Get lost.

[ncbiker]

65. Sounds like

you have a bit of post inferiority complex?

Nice

[leftchick]

48. what is with the we shit???

they would like to cut off peoples heads because they do not fucking belong there. You speaking for the people of Fallujah! What a fucking joke! You must have taken a left instead of a right somewhere.

[UNIXcock]

14. this is * war, not ours, all we can do is pray ...

... for a good outcome with minimal human causalities

[theHandpuppet]

29. I have to agree with original poster

And I'm just as guilty as anyone else. You know we have the power to stop this madness... we just haven't the courage or will to make the sacrifices necessary to do it. If this were 1776 the Tories wouldn't have a thing to worry about.

Praying won't stop this slaughter, this madness. We need to get off our knees and into the streets. But of course, we don't want to lose our jobs, our comfort, risk being arrested or worse, etc etc etc. We can hue and cry from the comfort of our living rooms and pray for "minimal human casualities".

Let's face it -- we're cowards. Me included. We have the power to stop this, but we won't. At least I will admit to my share of the responsibility.

[ncbiker]

31. We're not cowards

We all have it in us. It's just time to get on board and win this thing. The sooner we win this, the better off we'll be come the mid term elections when we can take back the House

[theHandpuppet]

42. I guess you and I ...

... differ on what constitutes "winning". You think that flattening a city is "winning". I think standing up to tyrants is the real battle, the one to win right here at home.

You want to "get on board" and win this thing? I'm sure you know the directions to your nearest recruiting station. Have fun at the slaughter.

[ncbiker]

50. I'm not disagreeing with you

but before we win here at home, we need to win this thing in Iraq. Look how we won in '92. The war was over and the refocus shifted to domestic policy. Remember what Clinton talked about in the campaign? Health care, education, middle class tax cuts, ect...

Look, we're already in the hole for another 4 years. I don't want another Repug to win in '08

[theHandpuppet]

56. Well, just a few more mass slaughters...

... and we can get back to business as usual then. Now there's a comfort to assuage one's conscience. Just bulldoze them all into a few mass graves and it will be out of sight, out of mind.

[Goldmund]

67. If the only difference between Repugs and Dems...

...becomes economic policy, then I -- and I suspect millions of others -- will have no interest in the Democratic Party at all. You guys down in the Red States can have it. Hope it serves you well.

And send us your progressives.

[ncbiker]

69. Missing the point....

again

[Goldmund]

74. See post #70

[UNIXcock]

46. Sadly, theHandpuppet is right, all I can and will do is ...

... Pray hard. I have a family that relies on me for support. I cannot afford to lose my livelihood by rioting. Hell, I cannot afford to take a whole lot of time away from my work.

... If 51% of the people in the country want this - let it lay on their shoulders - they "sleep in the bed they make" - there's nothing I can do but to pray for a good outcome for all.

[ncbiker]

55. Our boys are not just

representing 51% of us. They're representing ALL of us. It's our moral responsibilty to support them

[theHandpuppet]

58. I pray for their safety...

... but cannot support their participation in this slaughter.

[UNIXcock]

59. Sorry, I stand corrected ...

... I too support our troops. It's our leadership I question.

[Goldmund]

70. Let me ask you a question

In your profile, you say you live in "United Fascist States of America".

What makes America fascist?

Thanks.

On Edit: And while you're at it, you may want to explain the Muslim crescent.

[rockydem]

75. I think

you caught him.

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Goldmund]

80. You're a troll.

[ncbiker]

82. Whatever

[theHandpuppet]

83. Bingo!

:)

[RaleighNCDUer]

91. We can support them best by getting them the hell out of there. n/t

[Minstrel Boy]

72. 'The sooner we win this the better we'll be come the mid term election"

I guess you can't see it, so I can't hold you entirely accountable for such a vile remark. But please consider its implications for the value you seem to place on Iraqi life.

Are you really happy to trade thousands of lives for a possible handful of House seats in two years time?

[ncbiker]

81. No, that's taken out of context...

Face the facts:

We can either pull out of Iraq (Not gonna happen)

or

We can let the war simmer on with no conclusion while chimpy continues to call it a "War on Terror"

or

We can finish the thing and bring our troops home


You tell me which scenario you want

[RaleighNCDUer]

94. We can't 'finish' this any more than we could finish Vietnam.

We need to declare victory and get the hell out.

No matter how many of them we kill, six months after we're gone whoever * left in power will be gone as well. Might as well be sooner than later, with as few dead as possible.

After what we've done to them, Iraq will never be our friends. These people hold grudges for hundreds of years. They remember the crusades the way native Georgians remember Sherman.

Killing Zarkawi will accomplish exactly nothing. Leveling a city to get at him will accomplish a lot. For Bin Laden.

[LSK]

22. like Bush wasnt going to do this anyways

Win or loose, he still has 3 months as president left...

[fryguy]

25. would have happened even with a kerry win

plans were clearly in place and operative regardless of the election result....either * would have launched the invasion (read: destruction) as a lame duck president, or as a triumphant start to his new crusade....one way or another, Fallujah was going to be laid to waste

[anarchy1999]

78. A very straight forward kick back to the top. We have to stop this

wholesale slaughter. We will reap what we sow.

[rockydem]

85. We can't stop it

Most of the troops over there voted for Bush. They want it. It's going to happen. Eventually reality will catch up to them. If their tactics fail they will have to shift tactics or pay a severe electoral price.

We should focus on opposing *'s domestic agenda for the time being....that's something we can actually do.

[Union Thug]

86. We DO need to stop this.

I don't know what to do, but I sometimes wonder if it means massive organization at home to shut down the streets, and shut down the economy and essentially use large scale civil disobedience to force the republican war machine into concessions(?). Starve the beast meets 1969.

Don't ask me how, but I can't think of anything else that might work.

Blah... it's the organization part that escapes me.

[RaleighNCDUer]

95. I suggested as much the other day. The other side claims 51%,

which I interpret as 48% plus x number of Diebold votes, but we still have at least 49%.

What would happen if that 49% declared a general strike, like we've seen in certain European countries, or like we sometimes saw in the '30s? No, the labor strikes never got that big, but if just a fraction of our strength could be focused, what would 10 million people refusing to allow business as usual for a week, or a month, do to Bush? Sit ins, blocking the doors to Federal buildings, in front of the gates of military bases.

We could even levitate the pentagon again.

[cassiepriam]

93. Iraq will be bombed back to the stone age now

In a democracy, the govt is: WE THE PEOPLE.
So we are responsible for anything done by
our govt, it in fact is done in our name.
But are we a democracy anymore?

[RBHam]

96. The Myth of Zarqawi...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2609351

[anarchy1999]

97. A kick to the top, are we going to let this happen?

n/t