WE have VALUES, let's define them.

[mzmolly]

WE HAVE MORALS/VALUES which differ from the Republicans. We simply need to clearly define them for the spoon fed public.

I'll start.

We Value the born/children. We value the right of our children to have an equal start in life. We value the right for children to have access to; health care, safe affordable housing, and a quality education ... for starters.

I'm off to rake, but you get the drift.

Who's next ... :hi:

Edited to add: "John Kerry On The Issues"

http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/

[CO Liberal]

1. We Value The Right Of People To Marry The Person They Want

Whether same-sex or other sex. Government has no right to interfere in such a personal decision.

[ncbiker]

2. We value the rights of ALL people,

not just Americans

[UNIXcock]

3. Personal Independence - Bill of Rights - Compassion for Less Fortunate

... The core "Yellow Dawg" values that defined American Democracy of a few short years past.

[LSK]

4. heres one: we get fooled by the media about values

For the 1billionth time, we lost because of diebold machines. This values crap is the media covering up.

[ncbiker]

5. This is supposed to be a positive thread

[mzmolly]

14. That's possible, or we may have lost because Americans are stupid

For now I reserve judgement.

:hi:

[UNIXcock]

21. I for one don't believe it

... we lost because our core values were not consistent with mainstream soccer-moms. They love the staccato and stability of a repetitive message. Period.

... Sorry to burst your bubble, but it's true.


...Now what are YOU gonna do to reverse this?

[Hunter_1253]

6. We value...

the right that every American taxpayer should have the ability to know what the government is doing with their money in regards to energy policy, spending on foreign wars, and contractors performing services for our government. It is our right to make sure that this money is spent wisely and conservatively, and that if a company tries to defraud, overcharge, or break the contract, they are criminally negligible.

[Skidmore]

7. We value the right to be active citizens and to participate in

our society through seeking and holding government office, voting with one vote per person, and dissenting when our government does not serve the people.

We value free speech.

[WLKjr]

8. Here are my VALUES

Families, no matter how big or how small or makeup, are very essential to the good upbringing of good people, honest people, hardworking people. It takes a community.

Firmness, Fairness, and Consitency.

Honesty and Integrity

Upholding the United States Constitution and Bill of Rights, and never allowing amendments or laws exlude United States Citizens

Morals (see above)

Loyalty, open mindness, willing to change.

Freindship, Honor, Duty.

This is the short list of MY VALUES. I am WLKjr and I plan on running for office in Ohio in a few years. And with a little bit of luck, maybe become the first Progressive Liberal Democratic Candidate for President from the state in I think 100 years. I am dead serious too. If I can get a little bit of backing here in Ohio, I will be unstoppable.


and no, I am not crazy, I seriously want to change things and make a difference here in Ohio, and make this state even better than it is and truly give representation for ALL Ohioans, no matter what party affiliation becuase I am a Common Sense thinker, something that is too little too far between these days.

[mzmolly]

15. Great! Good luck on that run for office!

:toast:

[Beacho]

9. Fairness

'nuff said

[Catfight]

10. I value open truthful governing...LOL...I still have that value..call me

stubborn, call me crazy, but I still believe it could happen.

[auburngrad82]

11. We value real fiscal responsibility. Don't spend what you don't have n/t

[highplainsdem]

12. We truly value the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

We don't just pay them lip service, as the rightwingers do while they work to undermine them.

[H2O Man]

13. Here's two:

1- The environment: I felt that this issue was not covered well in the campaign. I think that Robert Kennedy Jr describes in his new book, "Crimes Against Nature," how even conservative republicans are concerned about environmental affairs -- once they hear about them.

One in four Americans lives close enough to a SuperFund Site to have it impact their health. That doesn't mean they will all die .... we do not need to create a climate of fear and panic .... but they will be more likely to have certain illnesses, to hand down genetic predispositions to others to their children, and many will die earlier.

2- We need to re-evaluate the Constitution, specifically the Bill of Rights, in terms of "group rights," rather than merely as individual rights. As it stands, the only group rights mentioned in the document are those of Indians. Perhaps we have more in common with the Native Americans than we realize. It is an option that has great potential, obviously for gay & lesbian people, but also for more.


I agree that we need to define our values more .... individual, family, and community values. Good thread.

[mzmolly]

16. Love that #2. H20

Thanks for the positive feedback. :hi:

[H2O Man]

18. I'm often surprised

at how little attention this one gets. It may be that the Founding Fathers allowed us an option that has never been seriously tested. There is plenty of case law to build a foundation on. I see it as working in terms of gay rights, and even for young Americans to use when the draft begins in 2005.

[LiberalEconomist]

17. We are pro-life

we believe that children should be given the resources required to fulfil their potential: health care, a good education etc.

We are pro-life, we abhor war.

[Abelman]

19. Values

I value the vision of an America where we aren't dependent on foriegn oil, and eventually are dependent on no oil - and we won't miss it.

I value a quality education based on teaching students how to learn, and then helping them learn in whatever way is best for them.

I value teachers more than I value pro athletes.

I value the right of free speech.

I value the right of a homosexual to visit someone they love who may be sick or dying, or to inherit their estate should they die.

I value the union between two people, regardless of their genders, so long as they maintain that union through open and honest discussion.

I value giving children the chance to be whatever they want when the grow up.

I value giving everyone regardless of age fast and efficient quality health care.

I value promoting true Christianity - based on giving of one's self and forgiveness of others over fear of God's wrath and hatred of other religions.

I value allowing everyone to worship whomever they choose to, so long as their religion does not allow people to be victimized.

I value education towards abstinence, while still properly educating people on all forms of birth control available to them.

I value an adult and a child to be able to make mistakes and learn from them, because I think they should be able to make their own choices whether they be wrong or right, so long as no one is victimized.

I value a woman's right to decide what happens to her body.

I value keeping peace with others through diplomacy and open-mindedness.

I value going to war if all other avenues have been exhausted and there is no other choice.

I value giving the children of tommorow a green and blue planet to live on, not a brown and grey one.

I value helping people get jobs through creating them.

I value purchasing American made goods.

I value sacrifice for the greater good of all people, because all people deserve the right to freedom, justice, and a pursuit of happiness.

[mzmolly]

20. Beautiful.

n/t

[niwi]

25. great post

thank you!

[americanwomanone]

22. We Just Want Truth and Honesty. n/t

[Kahuna]

23. Right Molly. We do have values. We just get too shell shocked when

the subject comes up to say anything about them. That is how the repukes have managed to co opt the issue. Our guys just sit there with dopey grins on their faces and basically concede the issue to the repukes. Dummies.

[forgethell]

24. See, it's not that we

don't have 'values'. It's not even that the voters did not know that. We do, and they did. The problem was, enough of them disagreed with our values to vote for *.

It's the same thing with all the threads that I see wondering how we can ditch the liberal label. "They stuck liberal on (fill in the name of your favorite politician who went down in defeat here)", is NOT the reason said politician lost. The reason the politician lost is either he did not get knowledge of his values out there, or he did and the voters disagreed. And, if they know what the values actually are, it WILL NOT MATTER what he is called. If they agree with the set of values called "liberal', then he will win. If they don't, he won't. And until we realize this, and do something about it, we will keep treating the symptoms instead of the disease, and the patient, aka, 'the Democratic Party', aka 'the liberal agenda', aka 'the non-stupid voter', is going to continue to go down in flames and then have to engage in conspiracy theories (which may be true, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean you don't have enemies) to explain their unexpected defeats.

So, what are the options? First, I think we need to know exactly where we stand in the electorate. I think we would have had a much clearer idea if Howard Dean had been the nominee. We might, probably would have, been defeated, maybe much worse than we were. But at least we would have a clear intelligence of where we stood.

So, I think we need to stop trying to sneak into the White House by disguising our positions and posing as moderates (unless we nominate a moderate such as Joe Lieberman). Put our positions out there. Otherwise, we get Bill Clinton, who didn't do all that much to advance the progressive agenda, IMO.

Then, listen to the criticisms from the right. Stop thinking they are all mindless haters, so their opinions can be ignored. THEY EACH HAVE A VALUABLE VOTE. Talk to them, educate them, and be educated by them. They may have a valid point or two, and at least you can know why they think as they do. that is the very first step necessary in undermining their arguments.

Then, if we lose the election, stop trying to do end runs through the federal courts. I live in a conservative area of the country, and I have a number of conservative acquaintances. That may be one reason that I have never been as angry as many people here. I know these people, personally. But here's the thing: a large number of them ARE opposed to abortion and gay marriage, etc. BUT, a significant minority is not so much opposed to our positions on these issues as they are to an arrogant use of judicial power to impose these 'values' on them. In other words, these people are persuadable, if we use persuasion.

Yes, it may take longer, but it will be done right. As of now, the work of Roe v. Wade is in serious danger of being overturned. It was never accepted by vast numbers of citizens. Now, they have their turn at bat. This one issue, and now gay marriage, has energized them in a way never seen before. If this had been done state-by-state through legislative, not judicial action, they might not have been happy, they might be able to reverse a state or two, but history would have marched on them and it would have been accepted by now.

We often say that we don't want their values imposed on us. As near as I can figure, they don't want OUR values imposed on them. There ought to be a way we can both get what we want.

Anyway, that's my opinion. Hard work, learning from our defeats, moving on will get us where we want to be. Anger & hatred blind us to the possibilities.

[mzmolly]

26. But they DO want their values imposed on US which is why the Gay Marriage

and Abortion issues were on the ballot.

What they did was calculating. They found out what wedge issues most Americans did not find appealing about the Dems and polarized the issues, motivated their base to the polls by putting the issues on the ballots, and eeked out a win.

What I'm getting at is somethink like this: What about putting our own measures on the ballots ie. "do you think health care should be a right or a privlege" etc ...

[forgethell]

28. Well, in actuality, their values

are not being imposed. They are the values that have always been the standard. That's what our side is trying to change. that's why they call us 'progressives', because we are for progress.

So, they are trying to impose nothing. They are just protecting the status quo. Mypoint is that we should take partial victories instead of trying to get it all at once.

As for your comment about them being calculating, so what? They are trying to win an election. So were we. We tried to motivate our base, I think with some success, so did they, with more. They gave their base a reason to vote against our candidate. And a vote is a vote whether it is for or against.

As for your last statement, well tha's what I was trying to get at. Let's do it through the legislature and the popular will. It may take longer, but it will be done right, and won't fall apart with a change in administration.

[mzmolly]

29. Were in partial agreement.

"Mypoint is that we should take partial victories instead of trying to get it all at once."

I totally agree.

"They are just protecting the status quo." The status quo wasn't threatened. We didn't have a gay marriage innitiative on the ballots they did.

I agree that they were trying to win an election, "calculating" is not a bad word when it comes to politics.

[forgethell]

30. Well, I think you

are looking at it too simplistically. Until about a year ago, when the Mass. Supreme Court found a constitutional right for gays to marry, there was no gay marriage in any state in the Union. So that upset the status quo.

The plan, of course, was then to have the federal courts rule that all states had to recognize that right. Well, the conservatives, having been beaten before that way, were ready this tiime.

Look, installing gay marriage is upsetting the status quo. The ballot initiatives are a defensive measure. Even Nazis can take deensive measures.

By rushing this before the public was ready, we actually brought this on ourselves. Patience and education. that is what is needed.

[H2O Man]

31. Much like rushing the civil rights business

did long term harm to the democratic party by driving all of the dixiecrats into the republican party. We brought it on ourselves, supporting "those people." Patience and education would have worked. It might have taken a couple more centuries, but there was a poll in Newsweek that proved "those people" were satisfied with the rate of progress. We need patience and education so that even the nazis won't feel defensive.

[forgethell]

32. If you wish to look at it

that way, go right ahead. Changing the subject will not change the defeat that we suffered Tuesday. In case you have forgotten, we WON on civil rights. There were no ballot initiatives at that time. And the majority of Americans were with us. Civil rights act 1965, voting rights act, these were all legislative actions, not judicial

Hey, but go ahead. You can keep butting your head against a stone wall, or stop, use your head a different way, and walk around it. Up to you.

[H2O Man]

33. "we won on civil rights"

perhaps you should take a closer look at what LBJ's support for civil rights did to the democratic party ..... get back to me when you find out....

[forgethell]

34. Do you have a point?

Or are you being deliberately obtuse?

Civil rights laws cost LBJ the South, but Vietnam denied him a second term, as it did Hubert Humphrey a chance at the WH.

But, if persuasion had been used, and a law passed before the SC made its rulings, I think race relations would be much better right now. And the South might still be Democratic.

Water over the dam now, anyway. But gay marriage is not really on the same level as the race relations problem of the 50s and 60s. Leave aside any moral or philosophical differences. Some people think there are some, some don't. In the race problems, the vast majority was on our side, in the gay marriage problem, they are not. You might notice that the conservatives have just won (stolen whatever) the election and GWB will be appointing the justices. So, I seriously doubt we are going to win in the courts.

If you think differently, say so, say why, say how. Otherwise you're just blowing off steam.

[H2O Man]

27. Rev Jesse Jackson was just on Crossfire.

He did a wonderful job addressing the "values" questions.

One of the problems we faced was that far too few ministers were shown in the news discussing values. It was not because they were not out there. For example, the media covered the fact that some Catholic bishops spoke against Kerry. But there were more priests speaking out in favor of Kerry, and against Bush. I posted information on DU about this that was published in the Irish Echo, America's largest Irish- American newspaper.

If there was anything that I felt the democratic campaign failed to do, it was simply this: to promote some of the newsworthy stories like these priests, or Robert Kennedy Jr speaking out like an old testament prophet in his advocacy for the environment.