For the people who think Kerry is a wussy for conceding....

[Redleg]

I disagree that Kerry is a wussy for wanting this election to end. Think about this: For the last 5 months, John Kerry had to endure daily questions and ridicule concerning his honorable service in Vietnam. Kerry had to endure a systematic effort by conservatives to assassinate his character- turning Kerry into a fucking charicature of a person who flip-flops, windsurfs, reveres the French, and hates America.

Bush and Cheney regularly took Kerry's words out of context, twisted them, and then used them to beat Kerry over the fucking head. Remember the "global test?" Remember the "terrorists as a nuisance?" Remember the statement about Cheney's lesbian daughter in the last debate? We knew what Kerry meant with those statements. Anyone who watched the debates knew what Kerry meant. That didn't matter to the lying fucking liars- they (meaning the administration and it's shills) still twisted, lied and deceived us- and the media helped them perpetrate this crime against Kerry and against us.

If I had been in Kerry's position, I doubt I would have been able to put up with that bullshit any longer than he did. More than likely I would have exploded at Bush and choked that fuckface during the first or second debate- then it would have been game over candidate Redleg. But John Kerry didn't do that. He fought back hard, usually on the issues, and kept his cool. He showed us what "grace under pressure" really is. Contrast his quiet strength with Bush's obnoxious bragadaccio.

I think Kerry fought a good fight and then bowed out before this election could destroy him.

[knowbody0]

1. agree

integrity and the greater good

[Ducks In A Row]

2. I don't give a shit about kerry at this point, I want the lawyers promised

he can give up if he wants, but he should never have backed out of the promise to send lawyers to guard the votes

In florida right now, they are throwing away democratic votes.

[bullimiami]

5. how are they throwing them out?

the ballots are legal documents. it should be illegal to tamper with them.

[Ducks In A Row]

17. throw them out = put them in the pile not to be counted

btw, heard that dem candidate in florida, won again once she and her lawyer stopped the ballots from being thrown out.

but she's just one person and it's just that one race.

where are the other lawyers to watchdog this shit.

btw, fuck kerry and edwards for breaking that promise of watchdogging the election

[sangh0]

19. How do you know Kerry didn't do that?

btw, heard that dem candidate in florida, won again once she and her lawyer stopped the ballots from being thrown out.

How do you know that Kerry's lawyers haven't been assisting this person covertly, so as not to arouse suspicion?

[merh]

31. Because she called Randi Rhodes, the only member of the

media that is screaming about the voter fraud, and told her that NO ON OTHER LAWYERS - only her lawyer, were watching the count! She and her lawyer, one (1) lone guy, were at the election office, making sure the ballots were counted.

THOUSANDS OF AFFIDAVIT BALLOTS are not being counted in Florida because the "don't look right".

[sangh0]

32. How do you know she told the truth?

Maybe she intentionally denied Kerry involvement in order to keep it a secret

Why do you just assume her intent is good, and assume Kerry has no good intent?

[Ducks In A Row]

34. oh sure, she was happy to not have anyone there to watch

to have the votes thrown out.

and gee, once she was there, the vote stopped being thrown out and gee she's won again.

oh sure, that was so great that kerry broke his promise.

bullshit.

[sangh0]

37. You think she needed companionship?

It wasn't a party. It was a legal action.

and gee, once she was there, the vote stopped being thrown out and gee she's won again.

So then is she could stop the ballots from being tossed, why would she need someone else to accompany her?

You're full of shit. You're making all sorts of claims that nobody can prove.

[merh]

39. You know, you can believe what you want!

Folks like you are very annoying. How do I know you really care?

[sangh0]

40. You've wimped out

It's obvious that you CAN'T possibly know if Kerry was involved, or if the woman is telling the truth, so now you're bugging out.

[AllyCat]

42. If Kerry was really interested...

...he wouldn't have been in FL with this lady. Instead, he would have had his lawyers crawling all over OH and FL looking at the recounts. But, uh, gee, they aren't doing that. I can hardly imagine he would instead, spend his time in FL watching this lady's recount. Good thing SHE is a fighter. Is she willing to run for Prez in 08? We need a good candidate.

[sangh0]

44. They are in OH and FL

But, uh, gee, they aren't doing that

But, uh, gee, I don't believe you've searched through OH and FL. IOW, I think you're full of it.

[AllyCat]

69. If you really thought I was full of it

...you wouldn't respond to my post. So why is it US, I mean here, on other blogs, and BBV who are doing all the work? There is a letter from a couple Congresspersons asking for an investigation on this. And Nader, NADER, is doing something about it!

I've heard nothing about K and E except that the lawyers wanted to fight and K didn't want to drag the country through it. And the talk about E being DNC Chair.

If you have some other links, please post so we can all see this. I really want to believe they are doing something about it, but it sure isn't visible.

But I guess you won't be reading this since you think I'm "full of it".

[sangh0]

71. WTF are you talking about?

If you really thought I was full of it you wouldn't respond to my post

Sure I would. I just did. I wanted to make sure others knew how full of it you were, like here:

So why is it US, I mean here, on other blogs, and BBV who are doing all the work?

That's just abother lie of yours. I know for a FACT that Kerry has lawyers working for him on this. Some of rhem came from my office and they are still there working on this, So I KNOW you are lying about this.

I've heard nothing about K and E except that the lawyers wanted to fight and K didn't want to drag the country through it. And the talk about E being DNC Chair.

That story came from a paper owned by Rupert Murdoch, owner of Fox. I'm not surprised you trust him. Fox viewers believe all sorts of things that aren't true.

[Cerridwen]

100. I was informed today that lawyers for Team Kerry are currently in Ohio

keeping watch over the coming count of provisional ballots.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Wonder where else them pesky lawyers might be?

[merh]

86. No, I didn't wimp out, I just get bored with folks who want to

fight all the time - especially when they want to fight folks on their side.

I take the lady's comments for what they were worth. Her first hand account. Since I haven't heard from Kerry on it, I can't tell you what he did. BTW - the lawyer with the lady politician was the partner of RR's lawyer and a friend of RRs

[sangh0]

93. Then stop attacking people on OUR side

Kerry is on our side, and you're attacking him while complaining about people who attack people who are on our side

I take the lady's comments for what they were worth. Her first hand account. Since I haven't heard from Kerry on it, I can't tell you what he did. BTW - the lawyer with the lady politician was the partner of RR's lawyer and a friend of RRs

Fine, but if you attack someone who is on our side, expect someone who is one our side to counter-attack in defense. You don't want Democrats to stop fighting, do you?

Well, I'm a democrat and I'm gonna keep fighting those who attack democrats.

[merh]

94. It was you that began the atack. I merely reported facts.

My attempt to clarify a misconception that was posted on this thread that other lawyers were involved with the dem candidate that requested a recount in Florida was not an attack on the dems. It was my attempt to share the facts as I heard them reported by the only member of the media that is focusing on the recount, Randi Rhodes. She shared the first hand knowledge and I relayed it, only in an attempt to clarify the misconception.

It was you that began the attack. I personally believe Kerry is a better man and would have made a better president than Clinton. I personally believe that Clinton caused more harm to the democratic party than anyone before him. He knew the right wing were out from him from his first campaign, yet he got a blow job in the oval office “because he could”. So, instead of tracking down Usama and the Al Qaeda, he was caught up in the impeachment proceedings and the “wag the dog” fears, thus Usama was allowed to run free to plan 9/11. Additionally, the “indiscretion” has been used to beat the democratic party up and allow the repukes to have the power. Instead of fighting the laws that allowed the media monopolies in 1996, he allowed it to happen, thus we have the propaganda monsters controlling our air waves.

Now we learn that Clinton tried to get Kerry to turn on the gays for the sake of politics. Thank god that Kerry is a man of principles and did not. And yesterday, Clinton tells the party to stop whining. You tell me who turned on the party and our principles.

Now, don’t play the attack dem game, you have attacked dems too in your posts on this thread. The tea cup comment was not necessary.

Do not mistake clarifying the facts for an attack on Kerry or the party.

I too am a member of the democratic party.

[sangh0]

95. You should go and re-read this part of the thread

It began when I asked another poster how s/he knew that Kerry did nothing on this. You then defended their claim that Kerry did nothing by saying that that was what the woman said, which really did nothing to answer my question (that fact had already been reported and did not address my question which went to whether or not she was telling the truth) and did act as a support to an attack on Kerry for doing nothing, when it isn't known for a fact that Kerry did nothing.

Now we learn that Clinton tried to get Kerry to turn on the gays for the sake of politics

No, we learned that a newspaper owned by Rupert Murdoch is willing to run an unsourced article with unnamed "Kerry aides" claiming that Clinton said that. We also learned that you are willing to believe an unsourced article in a paper owned by Rupert Murdoch. Those are the facts. Whether or not Clinton actually said that is an opinion.

[merh]

101. You are entitled to your opioion and your interpretation or

misinterpretation of the facts - Clinton is aware of the article and its harmful nature, he is capable of refuting same if he wants to .

Again, my post was very responsive to your post. No Kerry lawyer was present when the Fla dem candidate had the ballots recounted.

[sangh0]

102. Again, that doesn't mean that Kerry didn't help

That FACT is that neither you nor I know what's been happening. Neither you nor I KNOW what Kerry is doing wrt to the voter fraud.

And you also don't know if Clinton is aware of the article. How in the world do you expect to believe that you know what Clinton has read?

[merh]

103. One last time --

Let me type this out slowly, maybe then you can follow it.
The attorney for the particular female candidate in Florida that requested a recount and the female candidate herself both personally told Randi Rhodes that NO OTHER attorneys were present or requesting the recount she demanded. They both were alarmed that no other attorneys were present for the recount, or, from their perspective concerned about the recount, as they too had heard that the democratic party had thousands of attorneys but non were present. Now that tells me that, as far as the recount regarding the female candidate, as referenced in prior posts that I responded to, Kerry was not involved in that recount.

And you can bet that Clinton is aware of the article referencing gays, it is too hot a topic for him to have ignored.

Again, think what you like, my posts were not unreasonable or attacks. They were statements of reported facts. Your posts however or assumptions and supposition, I would venture to surmise that they are wishful thinking.

[sangh0]

104. Again, we KNOW what she said

but that may not necesarily be what happened.

Now that tells me that, as far as the recount regarding the female candidate, as referenced in prior posts that I responded to, Kerry was not involved in that recount.

And again, the only thing this woman's statement tells you is that SHE SAID these things. It doesn't mean that they are true.

And you can bet that Clinton is aware of the article referencing gays, it is too hot a topic for him to have ignored.

And again, you can bet on it, but you still have no evidence that what you say is true. Saying something doesn't make it true. Not when you do it, and not when some woman says it.

my posts were not unreasonable or attacks

It is unreasonable to think something is true merely because someone said it was true, and so far, that's all you got.

[merh]

105. Whatever

:shrug: you just like to fight don't you.

[Cerridwen]

99. I was informed today that lawyers for Team Kerry are currently in Ohio

keeping watch over the coming count of provisional ballots.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x965216

Wonder where else them pesky lawyers might be?

[bullimiami]

3. absolutely disagree.

kerry had a majority of Americans as supporters. If you are going to run you have to accept that the rhetoric may get ugly. That is a reflection on Bush, not Kerry.

I will not say wussy, I think he was premature in his acceptance. He promised us, PROMISED US, he was going to fight for every vote to count and not allow fraud to stand.
I hope, when he sees the reality he will reconsider his options. The revolution has started and it was the Republicans that started it, we need to fight back.

[Eric J in MN]

80. Right. With so many questions about the legitmacy of the 2000

election, why not wait at least a couple of weeks to see what comes to light about the legitimacy of the 2004 election before concedint?

[goddess40]

98. how does giving up make you feel better

I sure Gore wishes he would have fought harder. It might be easier at the time to fold but in the long run to let a crime go unpunished will make you feel worse.

[ezgoingrl]

4. Part of me says, you're right.

The other part of me says that if Kerry and Edwards weren't ready to fight once the polling was over, then they were the wrong people for the job. We knew that there would be discrepancies to deal with and questions that would need to be answered. If these concerns aren't addressed and cleared up, then we've lost more than just an election. We have lost everything that America stands for with little hope of ever getting it back again.

[bullimiami]

6. Right if those dogs have no fight in them.

they were truly the wrong men for the job. I hope they will renew my faith.

[sangh0]

12. Where are your scars?

I love how people sitting in comfort feel free to denigrate the sacrifices of others.

[Redleg]

15. Good point. I wish I had made that in my original post.

EOM

[GodHelpUsAll2]

96. Just like

being "misled" into voting for an illegal war. Mere lip service.

[troubleinwinter]

7. It isn't about Kerry

It is about US. OUR rights to a democratic election have been violated. WE have been cheated.

If he is not willing to fight for our rights as Americans, he should not have run.

[MamaBear]

10. That's my take on it, too. n/t

[sangh0]

13. Right on!

I find it incredible the way some are trying to blame Kerry for their own failures. People who would only fight over the last slice of pie are complaining because Kerry supposedly didn't fight for them.

He mortgaged his house, put his career at risk, worked hard for two solid years, not to mention risking his life in combat.

What a wussy, right?

[Old and In the Way]

14. Hmmmmm, you are correct, we have been cheated.

And I think the news is starting to leak through. Kerry has been quiet, but I don't doubt for a second that there are things happening in the background that might surprise us all. Stay tuned.

[Tomee450]

72. I couldn't agree with you more.

Every Kerry supporter to whom I have spoken is very angry that he conceded so early before all the votes were counted. People are so disappointed in Kerry. He is not what people believed him to be.

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

8. I assumed he would be at his most effective at this stage

I really felt his strengths would lie more in fighting post-election than pre-. He endured the circus of lies admirably, and I thought that was all he needed to do. I envisioned him leading the recounts and fraud investigations so steadfastly and eloquently that whatever body ultimately made the decision would crumble.

He never could become the lie-monger or the sensationalist he needed to be to win the people who bought the other side's lies. It is not in the man's character, obviously. I'm not saying we should have run someone sleazier.

A lot of my faith in him came from my feeling that he could and would fight the battle that is not being fought.

[txindy]

49. You know about Kerry and his investigation of BCCI, right?

That wasn't done out in the open with network cameras and talking heads hounding him every step of the way. It was done on the quiet, calmly, decisively, and, most of all, thoroughly.

I'm going to wait and see how this plays out. We have until Dec. 12th when the Electoral College meets. We're not done, yet.

[Tomee450]

73. Sorry,

if left to Kerry and the leadership of the Democratic Party, we are done. I strongly doubt if they will do anything except roll over,as usual.

[txindy]

76. I'm sorry, too, because if you can't wait until December 12th

when the Electoral College meets, you were done long before now. Nothing's changed. If Kerry had won, B*sh would be doing exactly what he's doing now anyway, probably more, in order to get it all in before the inauguration in January. We have until Dec. 12th. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I've lost nothing more by waiting another month.

[SammyWinstonJack]

9. Well nice that he could "bow" out before he was destroyed.

We can't bow out.

[Redleg]

79. We? What did we risk in this election compared to what Kerry risked?

We didn't risk diddly squat.

[ezgoingrl]

11. Who knows...

maybe there is something in the works. It's entirely possible. After all, Kerry made a tough and unpopular stand after Vietnam, so something like this wouldn't be virgin territory for him.

This is about Kerry; because this is about leadership. If we fight to expose any fraud that might exist, but our leaders haven't been up to fighting with us, then are those the people we want to trust if the fight is won? I don't think so.

[Redleg]

16. Maybe someone needs to convince Kerry that the election was indeed stolen.

How will he know otherwise?

[sangh0]

18. Yeah. Maybe one of the "fighters" here can battle their way into Kerry's

office and inform him of what happened.

[Redleg]

21. LOL!

There is a lot of big talk around here.

[noiretextatique]

20. c'mon...you can't be serious...how would he KNOW?!

and i agree with you about not blaming kerry, but c'mon...kerry is a smart man. he knows what's going on, just as gore knew what was going on. i am still hopeful, btw, that not only does he know, but he's still working on things now.

[Redleg]

22. I do hope he knows and is working on the problem.

I guess we'll find out.

[Chelsea Patriot]

53. Of course he knows! He, himself, used BBV to win the Dem. nomination

Kerry knows fully what's happening.

Iowans used BBV voting in the Dem. Primary, the race where Kerry made his spectacular comeback against Gephardt and Dean.

Gephardt wanted a recount. But, guess what, there couldn't be a recount because there was no paper trail!

How can Kerry complain about BBV voting when he benefited by it?

Am I wrong on any of this?

I would really like to be.

[noiretextatique]

66. perhaps he can't...but WE can

bev harris and the folks at black box voting are working on it right now.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

83. He, himself, used BBV to win the Dem. nomination?

You don't know what the fuck you're talking about. If they were used at all it was only in states with primaries. My state, Washington, uses the caucus system which is more like congress or a legislature in its selection. The candidates and issues are debated and voted on publicly. There are no secret ballots in a caucus.

[Carolab]

23. SWELL

"I think Kerry fought a good fight and then bowed out before this election could destroy him."

Destroy HIM? What about US? It ISN'T about Kerry. It's about US. It's about our DEMOCRACY. Where is the money that was donated to the legal defense? Where are the lawyers? Where is the fight?

This this was RIGGED. The data is there. They need to prove it.

[Snivi Yllom]

24. well, the name I am thinking of rhymes with wussy

meow

[Redleg]

27. Why don't you run for president then?

Let's see what you're made of.

[sangh0]

28. You wanna know what SY is made of?

meow

[Redleg]

29. Lot's of cats in here lately.

Good thing John Kerry isn't one.

[LittleClarkie]

25. I don't need a "Gored" candidate

I'm glad he bowed out before it could destroy him. What is with the romantic image of someone willing to go down in flames being somehow desirable at this point. A man going down in flames can't do shit for me.

I don't need a marginalized crazy uncle that only gets trotted out for conventions. I need John Kerry still politically intact to continue the fight from the inside.

But then I still love the man. Probably always will.

Kerry in '08

(when DO we get our sigs back, anyway?)

[Redleg]

26. Well stated.

Of course there are many others who would say you're full of crap.

[LittleClarkie]

33. Thank you.

They'd be wrong.;)

[mzmolly]

30. I think without evidence of fraud he had no choice. The guy still works

in the Senate, and if he would have claimed "fraud" without PROOF, he'd be laughed out of Washington.

His legacy can't be one of sour grapes. He'll have NO clout in Washington if he doesn't tread gently here.

I am confident he is interested in potential fraud, he and Dean discussed the issue after the primaries and said they were working on it. I am certain people are looking at it, what can be done about it, is another matter.

[Ducks In A Row]

36. how about he LOOK for that evidence, because others have found it

and if he doesn't at least LOOK, it can't be FOUND.

thought the guy was a prosecutor once.

[sangh0]

38. You're full of shit

others have found it

You don't know who found it. All you know is who SAID they found it. They could be lying.

if he doesn't at least LOOK, it can't be FOUND.

Again, you don't know if he is looking or not.

You just keep making up stuff.

[AllyCat]

43. No evidence of fraud????

What is the Gahanna, OH thing? How about the mismatched exit polls with election results everywhere there was no-audit-trail eVoting? What about the reports of people voting for Kerry and it showing up for Bush on the final? What about the counties in FL where 77% are registered Dem, but somehow Shrub got 68% of the vote?

What about the shredded voter registrations? The missing absentee ballots? This started long before Nov 2nd and we all know it. So did Kerry.

Instead, they all decided to lie down.

[noiretextatique]

54. proof...wasn't 2000 proof enough?

let's not forget: we are talking about the very same people who did steal the election in 2000, with the blessing of the supreme court.
i can understanding him treading gently because of the power of these folks, but he'd better damn well have a big stick. his legacy won't mean anything at all if * is allowed to take office again.
washington is a JOKE because of bush, inc...no one there will have any credibility until they are ousted.

[catbert836]

35. It's not Kerry's fault he lost.

It's America's.

[AllyCat]

41. It's not the fact that he conceded...

...it's the language of the speech that asked me to find 'common ground' with an uncommon criminal. He sold out to his fellow Bonesman.

[Cat Atomic]

45. If you don't want to fight, don't get in the ring.

Sorry- but Kerry accepted the nomination. He had alot of people working for him, and alot of people counting on him.

You're saying it's OK that he bailed out because... what? He was being attacked verbally? Boo fucking hoo.

I'm not saying that fraud has been proven, and I'm not saying he shouldn't have conceded. But he shouldn't have conceded before the votes were all counted. In my opinion, he shouldn't have even suggested we find common ground with the conservatives when he finally did concede.

[sangh0]

46. Why don't you show us how it's done?

Or is fighting something you demand others do?

You're saying it's OK that he bailed out because... what?

Because until the proof of fraud is found, there is NOTHING that can be done to change the result.

[Cat Atomic]

47. He conceded before the votes were even counted.

The odds were awfully slim that those ballots would've won him the WH, sure. But it's the principle of the thing. He should've waited until every vote was counted, THEN conceded if he lost.

All the "I'll fight for you" rhetoric looks absolutely laughable in that context.

[sangh0]

48. So why dont you fight your way into Kerry's office

and demand that he renounce his concession?

But it's the principle of the thing.

If it's the principle, then why aren't YOU out fighting for YOUR principles? Or do you only demand that OTHER people fight?

All the "I'll fight for you" rhetoric looks absolutely laughable in that context.

Complain about how Kerry didn't fight while you do NO FIGHTING either.

[Cat Atomic]

50. sangh0, you don't know what I do.

And I wish you'd stop making everything into a personal attack.

I was not running for President. John Kerry was. All I'm saying is that he should've waited for the votes to be counted- is that really such a wild idea to you?

[sangh0]

51. I know what you didn't do

I know you didn't FIGHT your way into Kerry's office and I know you DID demand that Kerry fight.

And I wish you'd stop making everything into a personal attack.

If you blame someone for not fighting, then it's appropriate for me to ask what fighting YOU have done.

I was not running for President.

You have principles, don't you? Why should Kerry fight for YOUR principles if you won't?

All I'm saying is that he should've waited for the votes to be counted- is that really such a wild idea to you?

It's a BAD IDEA, and the ONLY GOOD it would do is to make you and others FEEL better. But it wouldn't change anything. Kerry isn't there to make YOU feel good.

[Cat Atomic]

52. You aren't making sense. You're just ranting.

I volunteered for Kerry's campaign after volunteering for Kucinich in the primaries. I was lucky enough to work in a field that was needed by the campaign (advertising), and I donated everything I could in that arena. What did you do?

I stand by my previous posts.

[StClone]

55. Maybe Kerry realized

that there was nothing he could do. Al Gore tried to fight and look where it got him.

Its interesting how everyone who is close to the campaign is mum on the topic of voter fraud. None of them are even talking about it. I think they realize that their involvement would weaken our case.

They didn't abandon us, they left it to us. We are strong, and we won't give up this time. Everyday we are finding more proof, getting more support, and this story is gaining momentum.

[sangh0]

57. But you didn't fight

but you'll demand that others fight.

[Generator]

82. I'm fighting by putting you on ignore

[noiretextatique]

56. (((sangh0)))...i understand how you feel

but it's not cat's fault either.
this is my mantra: there is something BIG in the works. all sorts of people are working on it, even it is only spreading the word.
it cannot end like this, not even in the awful, unjust world, because there is far too much at stake. kerry and edwards did their part, and they did the best they could, but they can't do everything. others are working right now to uncover the truth of the fraud in this election, this time in time to stop the wrong outcome.
i am going to believe that until...until i can't anymore.

[sangh0]

58. I didn't blame anyone

except for the American people, as a whole.

It's cat that's finding fault here, and she's blaming Kerry for not doing something that she herself has not done.

this is my mantra: there is something BIG in the works. all sorts of people are working on it, even it is only spreading the word.

I tend to agree with you. I don't what will come of it, but I can't see how they're NOT working on it. That just can't be.

i am going to believe that until...until i can't anymore.

Me too, which is why I'll continue to defend MY President

[Cat Atomic]

59. I'm a male.

*edited- to not be a jerk*

But sangh0- you're ignoring my entire point. I said that Kerry should've waited to concede until the votes were counted. I did not say he should claim voter fraud without evidence. I did not say he should refuse to concede. I said he should've waited to concede until the votes were all counted.

[sangh0]

61. Sorry bout that

And I'm still waiting for you to tell me what you did for the Kerry campaign

I worked for a local campaign this year. ANd I never questioned whether or not you WORKED for a campaign. I questioned whether you FOUGHT for you principles. IMO, if you're going to criticize someone for not doing something, then you should be willing to do it yourself.

I said that Kerry should've waited to concede until the votes were counted. I did not say he should claim voter fraud without evidence. I did not say he should refuse to concede. I said he should've waited to concede until the votes were all counted.

And I think that's a fantasy. After 24 hours, the media would be HOUNDING him day and night, asking whether or not he was conceding. He would have been FORCED to either REFUSE to concede or to actually concede. There was no way he could delay conceding without refusing to concede.

Furthermore, delaying that would have done NO GOOD. Not for Kerry. Not for the nation. Not for me and not for you. Nothing would change.

[Cat Atomic]

64. Damn you and your timing.

I had just edited my post. :P

We'll just have to disagree on this point, sangh0. I think it's time for Democrats to dig their heels in and not give an inch to Bush. I think Kerry would've made a strong statement by ending the campaign that way. I'm sure you're right when you say he would've been attacked relentlessly by the media, but I think it would've been a powerful and firm statement.

[sangh0]

67. A powerful and firm statement

that achieved nothing.

[Cat Atomic]

70. As opposed to racing out with a white flag.

Ahead of the final vote tally. That accomplishes less than nothing.

[sangh0]

74. So now there was a white flag?

Cat Atomic, your reliance on non-existent flags, along with your talk about how Kerry didn't "stand up for principle" makes it clear that this is more meaningful and emotional than a mere difference over timing. The fact that you place so much importance on something that even you can't explain the benefits of indicates that this is an opinion that is based more on your emotional reaction than a carefully thought out conclusion. You can talk about how conceding accomplished "less than nothing" but you still haven't stated clearly what was lost and what might have been gained.

[noiretextatique]

63. i hear you...and i'm with you

glad i misread you...i thought my old buddy was getting discouraged :D
yes...i fault the american people as well...i feel completely betrayed too.
keep up the good fight then :hi:

[sangh0]

68. I'd kill myself first

before I gave up.

[roseBudd]

65. But now the provisional ballots are being counted in Ohio

[A Simple Game]

77. Exactly,

and what happened when Gore demanded a recount in Florida? He got none!

Kerry may not have given up.

[Tamyrlin79]

60. This is crazy.

You first start out by saying that he is NOT a wussy, that you disagree with that proposition:

I disagree that Kerry is a wussy for wanting this election to end.

Now, you summarize the point of your argument in the final statement:

I think Kerry fought a good fight and then bowed out before this election could destroy him.

Thus, you ultimately conclude by saying that Kerry IS, in fact, a wussy. What else would he be, if he can't endure the mudslinging? What else would he be, if he couldn't deal with the realities of an election? He would have to deal with plenty more as president, no?

[Redleg]

78. Bowing out does not make one a wussy.

Should Kerry allow himself to be destroyed? Why don't you allow yourself to be destroyed? Have you given your all to defeating Bush? Have you given your livelihood? Have you given your reputation? Have you given your blood, your life? I didn't think so.

[Flammable Materials]

89. If Kerry became president, the GOP would have destroyed him also.

I just wish he could have bowed out before the primaries if he thought he couldn't deal with the Republicans' politics of personal destruction.

[Redleg]

91. Perhaps he wasn't prepared for the level of hatred to be directed at him.

I'm not making excuses for Kerry. He is but a man- not a superman. We better realize pretty damned quick that our candidates are just humans- we won't find the perfect candidate. If Kerry felt the costs of not conceding were too great then so be it. I wish he had stayed longer but I'm not going to crucify him.

[Politicub]

62. He kept his integrity

And that is an annuity to use next time.

I don't know how he kept his cool all that time, either. I hope a miracle happens with the vote count, and President Kerry is more than just a dream.

[WINEWOMAN7]

75. John Kerry is a Patriot

John Kerry conceded so that the recount could go on. This is a tactical response. Wait and see what happens when others challenge the fraud and the recount shows that Kerry won.

Dian

[Eric J in MN]

81. Am I suppoed to feel sorry for Kerry because his words were

twisted?

Whoop-dee-do.

Many of us, including me, put our all into this election, though we aren't rich and powerful like Kerry.

Kerry owed it to us to fight at least as long after the election as Al Gore did.

[Redleg]

85. It's more than that. His service to this country was questioned.

He was accused of faking his wounds, he was accused of betraying us POWs, he was accused of working with North Vietnam, he was accused of doing nothing in the Senate, he was accused of placing our national security in the hands of France and the U.N., he was accused of being a flip-flopper, he was accused of being weak on terror, of wanting Saddam to remain in power.

If you don't appreciate what Kerry tried to do then you didn't like Kerry in the first place. Perhaps you can run for president and subject yourself to that kind of fucking bullshit since you are so much more studly than Kerry.

[Eric J in MN]

87. Kerry was also cheered by crowds of thousands.

Kerry knew what he was getting into, he promised to fight, and he quit the day after the election.

The Democrats should be sueing in every state where minorities had to wait in line for hours to get an injunction for the same number of polling booths per citizen for 2006.

[Redleg]

90. I agree with that last statement. There is no reason people have to wait

that long to vote. In my precinct, many of us waited 1.5 to 2 hours to vote. Many people left because they couldn't wait that long (they might have been on their lunch hour or something) and only a few came back later to vote. It is a national fucking disgrace.

[Vadem]

84. I disagree!!! When Kerry fought to become the Dem nominee...

over Dean, Edwards, Gephardt, Cucinich, Sharpton, etc., he, in effect, agreed to take on all the sh*t from the Bush people that he knew was headed his way. There is no excuse for backing down! He MUST fight this harder than he has ever fought before....not only for himself, but for all of us who supported him.....Look...I am pissed!...because I know that this election was stolen, just the same as the election of 2000 was stolen by the same assh*les from our Dem nominee Al Gore. We must show the American people that this election was stolen, that Bush has NO MANDATE, as they are mouthing on every news program.....We must take it back!

[Flammable Materials]

88. Can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

<< I disagree that Kerry is a wussy for wanting this election to end. Think about this: For the last 5 months, John Kerry had to endure daily questions and ridicule concerning his honorable service in Vietnam. Kerry had to endure a systematic effort by conservatives to assassinate his character- turning Kerry into a fucking charicature of a person who flip-flops, windsurfs, reveres the French, and hates America. >>

If Kerry couldn't handle the heat, he should have stayed out of the kitchen. What's more important right now, his feelings or the future of this country? If he had won decisively, would he have quit because his feelings would be hurt for the next four years?

Forgive me if I still think he wussed out.

[Redleg]

92. Maybe you should run for office since you are so damned tough.

I thought Kerry handled the heat with class.

[Cerridwen]

97. Oh, so THAT'S how you spell wussy. I always thought it was

woosy or woosey.

Hmmm, maybe time to go medicate myself.

:silly: