Let's put this all in perspective, as it pertains to PNAC

[GregD]

I think we all agree that PNAC is entirely unambiguous about their goals.

This is directly from page nine of their Sept 2000 statement:

<<<At present the United States faces no global rival. America’s
grand strategy should aim to preserve and extend this advantageous position as far into the future as possible.>>>

What's the subtext to this? Well, to maintain a global stranglehold on the world, first they have to establish a complete and fatal stranglehold on the US Government. If they are out of power, they cannot continue the goals of PNAC. And that is precisely what they have done. And those are precisely the stakes against we are now aligned.

Q: Would they use BBV to steal the election?
A: Yes, and no less than they were willing to do ANYTHING ELSE to capture this election.

It's PNAC, or US. This is not just about the soul of a nation. This is about whether BushCo will continue with their plans of global conquest.

[DireStrike]

1. This is a huge policy failure for them.

They seriously underestimated the capacity of the true majority in America.

We are going to kick and scream and drag these fuckers from power. We are going to fight them with attrition and truth and every morally acceptable weapon at our disposal.

Best case scenario for us: we expose these people and take our country back within 5 years.

Worst case scenario: By the time one or the other of us has been beaten into submission, the US will not be a world power anymore. The EU and/or China will probably be the superpower(s).

I think we need to hedge our bets and start shoring up against these folks abroad. They need to be discredited in every circle.

[Wonk]

2. Hey Greg, did you catch this news yet, re: BBV?

I know you're already quite familiar with Walden O'Dell and his promise to "deliver Ohio for Bush", but here's what may very well be a smoking gun.

(snip)

COLUMBUS, Ohio - An error with an electronic voting system gave President Bush (news - web sites) 3,893 extra votes in suburban Columbus, elections officials said.

Franklin County's unofficial results had Bush receiving 4,258 votes to Democrat John Kerry (news - web sites)'s 260 votes in a precinct in Gahanna. Records show only 638 voters cast ballots in that precinct.

Bush actually received 365 votes in the precinct, Matthew Damschroder, director of the Franklin County Board of Elections, told The Columbus Dispatch.

State and county election officials did not immediately respond to requests by The Associated Press for more details about the voting system and its vendor, and whether the error, if repeated elsewhere in Ohio, could have affected the outcome.

more...
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041105/ap_on_el_pr/voting_problems_4

Here's an earlier DU thread on it
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2608146&mesg_id=2608146

[GregD]

7. yep

there are stories all over the damn place.

I hear that EFF is starting some stuff, Nader may do something, Conyers/Wexler and others have jumped into the fray, and maybe - just maybe - something positive will happen here.

Where ya been? First I've seen you in ages. Is tonight the last night for Moyers?

[Cleita]

3. Once you go down the slippery slope of accepting the

premise that the ends justifies the means, then you are capable of anything to achieve those ends. I put nothing past them, even ethnic cleansing and genocide.

[The Minus World]

5. We're wearing the white hats.

It is Utilitarianism versus Categorical Imperative.

It is saying "We can spare 3,000 of their lives now if that means 10,000 of ours may be saved later on." instead of saying "As the strictest rule, human life cannot be traded - regardless of future cost. The worth of a single person is infinite."

This is a basic battle of ethics here, and the bad guys are winning.

[The Minus World]

4. If... then...

Even if we lock the up PNAC and throw away the key, we will still have to survive the inevitability of Peak Oil and the ensuing population contraction. However, fear of such a fate is most likely the impetus behind the creation of such a group; the risk of widespread hysteria is the reason it remains relatively secretive about its intentions.

The PNAC agenda expresses the necessity for America to position itself strategically as an unchallenged force now so that its self-preserving ambitions cannot be challenged later.

I tend to believe that the course of events in this world should not be dictated by a global superpower controlled by a handful of zealots. Their utilitarian way of viewing human life as a means to their ultimate end is a direct threat to us, and the 2004 election is direct evidence that these people only maintain the ruse of "democracy" when it's convenient for PR.

[pretzel4gore]

6. the 'coup' happened on Nov 7/00

and it necessitated the WTC disaster (and all the rest of the bs filling newsmedia) with iraq afganistan etc just continuation. The busheviks are dead men if they're ever caught: this was true on Nov 8/00 and sept 10/01 and sept 12/01 and so on....it's true today. The busheviks, aided by the managers of the mass media overthrew the LEGAL GOVERNMENT of the USA....not in '04 but way back in 2000. Somehow, visiting DU etc, even I had hope that free voters would overwhelmingly reject criminal scheming, but the crims are totally in control of the news...they are fools because they're literally going to have to destroy a society, in order to save their shitty lives...
for winners the nazipoos sure look like a disease or something, they can't celebrate cuz it's impossible....they are evil, and need to be put down like sickened dogs....