"AA" is making fun of Fundies. I make fun of Fundies at home, but this is

[KoKo]

NOT what we should be doing, imho. I do great accents...I can mimic in my house the Perfect "Betty Bowers" and shout "Praise Jesus" in a way that would make your head split. A perfect "Hog Call YOWL."

But...making fun of them misses what they are about. I got trashed badly here on DU a couple of years ago when I put out a post that the Confederate Flag meant alot to some DU'ers from the South. I said it was our Heritage.

I was called a racist..."Educators" tried to tell me that honoring my
ancestors was honoring my "racist heritage" and that the Confederate Battle Flag was what I was honoring so I was a war monger against Blacks.

I've been on DU a long time. If I was the "racist, war mongerer" folks on DU thought at that time...then I would have been long gone by now.

I DO NOT BELIEVE that CHIMP won this race (if he truly won it) because America is all about "Values"...but I also know that some of you don't get how your trashing of some of us plays into the RW and the anti-Liberal bias in America.

I think Skinner was trying to talk about how can Liberals can get together and agree on a basic core philosophy in his Homepage Post...and I don't fit into any "one" of Skinners categories of those of us who are Democrats...I have pieces of two of his three categories.

But, until we can talk about some issues without trashing each other over our basic beliefs and LISTEN...the Repugs will manipulate us for decades to come.

I got worked up about this after listening to an "Air America" segment where the "guy" was really going over the top about the Fundies...and while I do my accents and joke at home...to hear this on Liberal radio
showed me that both of us are missing the point here with the Fundies.

We are attacking Christians when it's the FAR RIGHT that we should be attacking. :shrug:

On Edit: I am an Episcopalian raised in the South but lived most of my adult life in the Northeast. NYC, NY State, Conn., NJ....

[billbuckhead]

1. Fundies aren't real Christians

[JPace]

23. Oh good lord! what is a good Christian?

no one has an exclusive claim on Christianity
and I resent any remarks that claim to know real
ones from what...."pretending "Christians?".

Fundies are more radical than I am comfortable
with but I am sure their claim to Christianity
is a valid as anyone else's.

[sangh0]

28. Obviously, the people who judge who the "real" christians are

are the "real" christians.

[JPace]

36. Oh hi sanghO...

are you here looking for scars?

[jbm]

37. I think all great spiritual leaders taught liberalism..

I look at the teachings of Christ or Buddha or the greek philosophers or even Mark Twain..and the message reduces down to the basics of liberalism. I think people tend to see a whole bunch of different belief systems out there, but there are actually only two..and than lots of variations. I think that conservatism and Christianity conflict, although I suppose there are so many ways to define words like 'conservative' that we could argue the semantics for the rest of our lives.

[Zhade]

51. They follow Paul, not Jesus.

Here's a hint: the Rapture wasn't one of Jesus' teachings.

[Patiod]

2. Randi Rhodes had a great example today of Christians

who can be evangelists AND real Christians (the kind Jesus might actually recognize).

[KoKo]

7. But, many groups identify with them...thinking they are fringe, but love

that they are out there fighting for them. As an Episcopalian...I'm very different...but I understand that we need to know why they felt so beaten down that they clung to the Falwells, Moonies, Norquists and Bushies, etc., to give them a voice.

We need to view them as terrorists. But on the other hand, shouldn't we ask them why they are so angry that they had to be used by REPUG BIG BUSINESS, BUSHIES and RW THINK TANKS?

Why were they so desperate for recognition that they had to let these groups USE THEM?

[Cleita]

21. She did yesterday, didn't she?

But she basically said that all religions, not just Christianity, were about love. When they cross over into fear and hatred, then they become cults.

It is kind of oversimplifying people's belief systems, but I do think there is food for thought here.

[spotbird]

3. The fundamentalists believe in snake oil.

Their foolishness should be ridiculed. Enough of this respect for religious differences, they have no respect for my religious views, they have not earned my respect.

[LTRS]

4. Why? Are we now trying to win the fundie vote too?

Gee, when will dems learn to be JUST LIKE REPUBLICANS? That would solve everything. LOL!

[sangh0]

29. No, but when non-fundie people of faith

hear that, they think THEY are being denigrated.

[Moochy]

44. THEY should be denigrated

Some folks in Kansas get offended if you tell them about Darwin.. Should we care about these folk's sensibilities?

Fuck the religious right, Democrats dont need to become xtian fundamentalists in this country to compete. These are people who don't believe in a secular democracy. They believe in setting up their vision of a christian America in the model of the Handmaiden's tale.

The Left cant take baby steps toward a fascist theocracy and expect the "undecideds" to eat it up. They know when Kerry is getting tough on war, that he won't authorize the widescale kind of wanton destruction (read: tough on terror) that gives the undecideds their war boners and the militaristic middle their thrills.

Mock them for what they are, medieval-minded bigots and xenophobes.

[sangh0]

67. I asked about non-fundies

Why do you speak of fundies when the question was about the non-fundies?

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

5. Absolutely. I supported you on the Confederate flag, if you

remember, and I think that is a "hot button" issue used to split us just like some others.

Christianity is not the problem, it is just a coincidence that some of these people claim that as their religion for social purposes. True Christians have nothing to do with what we call fundamentalism, and are quite liberal in reality.

I have often wondered how vicious attacks and liberalism can co-exist, it seems sometime the only difference between us and them are the ends. The means seem very similar.

[KoKo]

13. No one but a few like you at that time tried to understand what I was

saying..that I was trying to bridge a gap and talk about how many folks in the South or with Southern Heritage felt about flying the Confederate Flag (battle or whatever).

They didn't understand that there was NO WAY I was racist, but that in the end I understood how painful it was to our African American DU'ers that the flag was still there...and put out during the Confederate Memorial in the 1960's. I understood what they said...and backed down.

But it did mean that we never could get a dialog going that the "Flag" didn't signify a Racist Symbol to many of us...but it was a memorial to the bloodiness of the Civil War and for many of us it was a way of honoring our dead even if they died for a lost and corrupt, racist cause.

I can understand. Maybe Germans who lost their fathers and grandfathers to the Nazi's in WWII might want to honor their dead but know they died for an evil cause. But, if we don't alow some kind of compassion and reflective thinking about the "individual who died" as opposed to the "cause" they died for then we create "ill will" which is used by Neo-Nazi's and Falwell types the world over.

The ancestors who died that we honored may not have supported "A CAUSE" They might have been "conscripts" or "National Guard" like those going to Iraq or who went to Viet Nam.

How do we know? And how do we know the real racists and Nazi's from the ones conscripted? Who should we be honoring. Or, because they were our family should we just hope they weren't on the darkest side but mere victims of war...:shrug:

[movonne]

6. Well I think that is exactly what we should do..Attacking Christians

is one thing but these evangelical nut cases are another...

[Pithlet]

8. Since you brought it up

There are ways to honor your ancestors without using symbols associated with hate and oppression. Maybe you should have listened to some of those DUers.

I didn't listen to what you're talking about, so I can't comment. Sometimes people go over the top in their broad generalizations and judgment, but there are also a lot of people who can take no criticism at all of Christians and fundamentalists. Just look at all the accusations of Christian bashing here at DU.

[KoKo]

14. You make an excellent point. We either honor them or we forget them...

but see my post below. How do we know what their true feelings were? What if they were "innocent conscripts" like our National Guard who are having go overseas to a war they never signed up for, or those in Vietnam who were drafted and didn't know what the hell they were fighting for.

How are we to know what was in their brains. So I should Spit on the graves of any of my ancestors...or should I be given a grace that I might not have approved of them, but they were my heritage?

It's very complicated. I don't know if there really is an answer. I go back and forth with what you say...and my own upbrining to honor my family no matter who or what they were, but never to "BE" who or what they were if they were immoral, or involved in what I would consider immoral or against the principles we humans try to define as the way we should treat each other. :shrug:

[KoKo]

16. Pithlet, it needs to be discussed here, but it never get's past bashing

and name calling and folks who think one's motives for posting are less than honorable. I expect this post of mine will put me in another yearlong exile on DU as a Racist...but I'm so sick of Chimp using this against us.

Until we on the left recognize our fellow lefties who want to hash this out...we will always be fighting with each other. And, it allows the Falwell's, Moon and all the other tools of the Repug Conservative Agenda to use us over and over again...

[SoCalDem]

25. Koko01, the problem (IMHO) is about the coarseness and aggression

more than anything else..

I liken it to "Cops" & "Dukes of Hazzard"... Anyone who has ever been a cop knows that shows like that present law enforcement in a bad light, and does little for the poor (income-wise) people who get rousted weekly.

The flag and the pickup truck full of good ole boys out "crackin' heads and boozin' has become the emblem.. Intelligent people know that's not the norm, but our media, in its infinite stupidity just cannot let go of the "Bo & Luke Duke" image of the south..and lots of (mostly) young men like that macho image and reinforce it every time there is a camera nearby.. Bush & Co. KNOW this, and love to stir the pot..

A fact of life too, is that "the side that loses" ANY war or conflict, never gets to write the history of what happened, and their leaders and warriors are never glorified like those of the "winners".. The truth about the Civil War? NO ONE "WON".. Both sides lost lots of people, and in the end the people who stood to gain the most, still had to wait ONE HUNDRED years to make any serious gains, and to do it THEY had to fight another "war"..a war that they are still waging in many ways..

War wounds never heal...no matter what side one fights for.. and perception becomes reality.

The modern south's PR people want it both ways, and the everyday people in the south continue to pay the price.. Look at almost ANY ad that portrays the south, ...they all use the same icons.. the spanish moss, the swamps, the "good ole boys and that damned pickup",the "Ah do declayah" southern belle, the Tara-like plantation houses.. Now..the CW has been "over" a LONNNNG time, yet the south still wants to be connected to that ERA, because its heyday was then.. and icons are visual soundbytes that most people instantly recognize.
The modern South is also skyscrapers, suburbs, sports teams, glitzy hotels, and so much more, but a snapshot of those items does NOT instantly scream "The South"..

The connection to eras bring up good and bad, and one never knows what will follow that instantaneous moment of recognition..

I am a Kansan, and when people hear "Kansas" , they automatically flash on the combines, the wheat, the extreme-flat...and they are right....there is more, but it's the icon-image that we all see first..

As long as the contentious leaders can stir up the aggressive/obnoxious ones with the stars & bars, they will do it, because it's "good soundbyte/newsclip material"... My guess is that if any one of those yahoos waving that flag as an "in-your-face" gesture to black people and liberals, was asked some history questions about their own state, they would fail the test....miserably.. They drank the koolaid and bought into the propaganda..they are being used, but they are not smart enough to realize it.

[KoKo]

31. Now that's a great reply with good insight...thanks SoCal...you really

got to the heart of the matter. There's more..but your description of TV and Movie Images of Southerners and the South...is what we fight against..though of us "more enlightened" former and present Southerners.

It's very complicated but seems to be back in the media and in the angst here among DU'ers that Dems must move to the Right.

If we don't understand or make an attempt to understand the "Southern Right" how do were really entice them back to the Democratic party.

Thanks!

[Pithlet]

49. I wasn't talking about modern southerners.

You cannot get around the fact that the confederate flag is the symbol of slavery and oppression for a great number of people in this country. It is what it is. Rather than rallying around that flag, which will do NOTHING to disabuse anyone of misconception about southerners, rally around what is good about the south, particularly now. There are plenty of ways to celebrate the south without hurting people. And that is what the Confederate flag does. I live in the south, and I KNOW that the Confederate flag is not the embodiment of the modern south. Those that cling to it, for the most part, only want to cling to the past.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

32. But that is _supposed_ to be a strength of our side of the fence

that we don't accept icons and soundbytes as reality, nor do real Christians or Leftists give a rats shit about appearance, race, ethnicity, or gender. Or at least, I thought that was what it was all about.

You are from Kansas, she's from Missouri, okay so argue about the football rivalry which is just a continuation of the border war that started the ACW.

He's a transgender bisexual with AIDS and this one is a Lutheran, married with kids... who cares?

IF we all have the same goals, then it should not matter. What is wrong is that there is not a common goal, IMHO.

[SoCalDem]

41. The key word in your post........"argue"

Our media (from which all current knowledge:eyes: flows)MUST have "argue"..

Think back... When has there EVER been a central theme put forward that did not have a "my-side-your side" feel to it?

In every day life, most people probably don't care about or even KNOW about the things that make them "different" from their friends and neighbors..

Politics and adversing NEED those differences.. We are ALL being played here..

In my personal life, I do NOT argue.. I listen, and if I disagree, I just tell whoever "Well you have your opinion..I have mine"..

I also have friends whom I have known for 30 years.. I have NO idea what religion they are..I just don't care..

My gay friends TOLD me they were gay..makes no difference to me..


I realize that I am not the norm, but then I always cast a skeptical eye at what the media wants me to think :)

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

46. You are right. I am out of the mainstream because I watch so

little TV, I guess. And since the advent of news on the internet I have not even picked up a physical newspaper more than once a week over the past 10 years, whereas I used to read 5 a day.

I am the same way. People say to me all the time... so and so is such and such... and I say "really?, who cares?" that blows their little minds.

I don't care what the media wants me to think. I ignore it to a large degree. If more people would do that, we could reform the media to its true purpose, which is to serve the public over the public's airwaves.

[Pithlet]

52. There is a difference

Between "arguing" and standing up for what you believe in. That is what DU is for, after all. There are some messages and ideas that need to be "argued" against.

[SoCalDem]

56. Oh.. I DO let them know the facts and what I stand for, but

I will NOT waste MY time arguing "swiftieliar stuff" or any other myths that the rightwing has tossed out..

I am a "this or THAT" person.. When someone tells me that they just love the TAXCUT, I just remind them (plant the seed of doubt) that when their property taxes go up, or the roads do not get fixed, they should start keeping track of the extra money they are paying out, and see how much that tax cut really helped themm. I also remind them that when public services to poor people get CUT, it only means that their kid might be sitting next to a kid with TB or impetigo, or the flu..

but I will not do the "argue" thing..

[Pithlet]

58. Maybe we're talking semantics

:shrug: Or maybe I misunderstood, and thought you were referencing my argument with Koko. I felt I was doing the very thing you say, because you were responding to a post that was a response to mine, if that makes any sense :)

[SoCalDem]

59. It's been a long day

:eyes:

[Pithlet]

50. The problem is there are those that want to cling to the past.

I live in the south. There is plenty to celebrate without using a symbol from the past that represents the slavery and oppression that took place then. I'm not talking about modern southerners. I live in the south, and have for years. Most of my family is from the south. And they do not defend the Confederate flag, nor do they display it, and for good reason.

[SoCalDem]

57. The media is shallow and goes for the easy/quick..

and there are always plenty of buffoons who will gladly give them their video-clip.. The people who have power and continue to push the "old ways" are the problem here.. I don't know how you guys can un-elect them without some EXTRA blue blood moving south (but retaining what they came with...not morphing into good-ole-boys)..Maybe that will do it :shrug:.

In SC, if the politicians had not started the shitstorm over the flag at the capitol, the people would probably have not made a ruckus..

They could have just as easly opened a Southern Heritage museum, and used the statehouse flag as a centerpount of the museum..but INSIDE.. Most people would have not objected to,. or even noticed..

[Pithlet]

60. Do you really think that some people are offended

by the Confederate flag because of the media? Honestly, I don't think that's the reason. I think your last sentence speaks to what I'm saying. The people who use it KNOW its effects. If someone knows that, but uses it anyway, they cannot complain when people are offended and react.

[SoCalDem]

61. The TV TELLS them they "need to be upset" and they just follow orders

The people are not told to be offended..(that's a given, if you are a black person in the south)..the media gives "permission" to the wackies to take to the streets.. then rush home and watch themselves on "the teevee".. (Just like Reality TV)

The Truman Show is seeming more real every day:(

[Pithlet]

62. Segregationists never used the Confederate flag as their symbol?

I don't think the negative reactions to the flag are a media construct. I think your assertion that people are only offended by the Confederate flag because the TV told them to be is ludicrous and ahistorical. It was specifically revived by segregationists in the 50's and 60's. It's like telling me I'm only offended by misogynist statements because MS magazine told me to. I think that's giving no credit to people with an understanding of history. Particularly those who were and still are affected by it.

[SoCalDem]

63. True.. the segregationists specifically revived its usage, but

there was a mass "promotion" of their nonsense. Probably every town in the south had their share of bigots, but they got "permission" to do it, because they got coverage of their "events", and all the extra attention only helped attract other loonies to join in..

How you get rid of them?? I don't know.. The shame is that young people join them and keep them viable.. I do not live in the south, so I don't know what schools teach about the civil war, but if these young (mostly guys) are being taught that it's ok to do this, I don;t know when it will end..

Racist republicans have mastered the "codespeak" and are very slick in their interpretation of so many things.. I feel for the ordinary people down there who just want a decent life for themselves and their families.. It must be difficult when the magnifying glass is dragged out because of a few loonies who refuse to live in the current..

[Pithlet]

69. Yes

The conception of southerners outside of the south is often wrong and bigoted. I'm definitely not arguing that.

Here in the south I often hear how the Civil War was about taxes. You'd be surprised how many people believe that. I hear it from people who should know better, and they are often the same people that defend the Confederate flag. I realize that it's not only southerners that believe that, but it seems an especially popular notion here. It is a woeful ignorance and misunderstanding of history. It's not always rooted in bigotry and hatred. It's just a part of history that is often glossed over. It raises my hackles every time I hear someone defending the Confederate flag, in the South and elsewhere.

[SoCalDem]

70. In their heart of hearts, when they search their souls, they know

it was not about taxes.. People need to convince themselves that they and their ancestors could NOT have done anything so terrible.. there MUST have been a better reason.. taxes?? yep..that's gotta be it.. No southerner can imagine their grandfather's grandfather whipping slaves.. That's not sonething any person would want to admit.,.


Like the swiftieliars, and the LOUD protestations.. Did they really think that those hootches they napalmed, did NOT have scared women,, babies, and old men huddled inside them?? Or the pilots who strafed roads with peasants fleeing the napalm..did they think that no innocents were killed? or the B52 pilots who dropped tons of bombs from miles up..those bombs hit people on the ground, but the pilots had "clean hands"..or did they?

The stuff we do not want to admit to, we just pretend did not happen..or we assign a "justifiable reason" to it..

[justjones]

9. Real Christians should know they aren't talking about them.....

When someone is talking shit about me and I know it's not true, it doesn't bother me one bit. But if I'm insecure about what they are cracking on, well, that's when I get offended....

So if they get offended, perhaps they recognize some truth about themselves that they don't like. IMO, if you are following true Christianity and aren't some crazy freak fundie, they wouldn't be offended. They may just find themselves joining in on the bashing, b/c afterall, we all commit sin, the only difference is that they will asking for God's forgiveness in the end.

[sangh0]

34. So now it's not just the religious right's fault

"Real" christians should just know what you mean, even when you're not clear about it

I won't modify my beliefs or actions because I believe myself to be a good and productive citizen.

Well, you must be a very special person. But for the rest of us, I remember when Ashcroft called us terrorists. Most DUers don't share your equanimity. I don't know why you think "real" Christians should be any better.

And DUers care PLENTY about what the right says about us. That's why you see daily threads with titles like "Limpballs just called us...." and "You'll never guess what Tweety just said..."

[justjones]

71. Yes, real Christians should.

I'm not even sure if we are talking about the same thing, so let me clarify. If you aren't a fundie radical evangelical hypocritical freak, you should recognize WHO the criticism is aimed at and understand that it's not you.

For example, the religious right supports this warmongering freak, which is the antithesis of real Christian values. If we ridicule a fundie for such hypocrisy and you happen to be Christian and don't support Bush or war, then you should know the criticism isn't aimed at you.

I've never read anyone on DU ridicule a Christian for their belief in God or in Christian values. It's when they selectively use those beliefs to further their selfish agenda or try to impose those beliefs on others is when I see the claws come out in defense of allowing others to make their own choices and carry the burden of their own sins and pay for them in the end if Christians happen to be right.

If you still find yourself offended, why not try to reign in your radical Christian counterparts instead of just criticizing us for criticizing them. Just a suggestion.

Edited for typos.

[enki23]

10. re: the confederate flag thing

if my ancestors were nazis, it would still be indecent of me to fly the swastika in new jersey. southerners have the "right" to fly their own swastika, but they're assholes for doing it. it's a hard, direct, and absolutely valid analogy.

as for making fun of fundies, well that's just good clean entertainment. when you're the ones being persecuted *by* the assholes, your moral obligations aren't quite the same. praise jesus.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

35. Well it depends on how too, don't you think?

If it is in a cemetary on Memorial Day specifically for the dead that is different than in a parade down main street trying to provoke a reaction.

[sangh0]

39. And doesn't that apply to religion also?

There is a difference between making fun of the religious while at home, and doing it on a public bbs, and doing it on a liberal radio show.

IIRC, that was exactly the point KoKo01 was making.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

47. Oh yes, absolutely. I did not hear the program, so I can't comment

but if the discussion was as described, it seems to be in poor taste, not that they should not be allowed to do it, but be prepared to accept the results of such programming.

Yes, I agree with KoKo01 on that.

[Carni]

11. Screw em-

They don't give a damn what I think...

I have a neighbor who directed a big sign at my house saying I was going to hell for celebrating the devil's hoilday because I decorated for Halloween (lit by two torches no less and I am not making this up)

[Say_What]

19. I laughed out loud when I read that...

Not to laugh at you, because if that happened to me I'd want to choke the bastard but these people are like the Moonies --a cult!! ;)

[Carni]

22. I was pissed LOL

If I live here next year believe me they will REALLY get a display!

[Jade Fox]

12. They are the far right.

Listen, I work with these people. If they had the chance they would turn
this country into a Christian theocracy at the drop of the hat.

[stlsaxman]

15. Huh? Alcoholics Anonymous poking fun at Fundies?

- it's Air America Radio (AAR)- NOT AA! Get it right next time, please.

[KoKo]

17. ROFL! Thanks for point that out...sorry...but enjoyed what you said!

:D

[stlsaxman]

20. Read the subject line and thought of a bunch of recovering drunks...

(of which i am one) sitting around the tables bashing fundies was about as absurd as that painting of the dogs playing poker...

Fundies, ecch- don't get me stared... ;)

[KoKo]

33. I know,I did read it ,and get the irony of my subject line with your post.

:D

[sister moon]

24. LOL! I thought it was American Athiests but I don't think they have

a radio show. Now that would make sense!

[The Magistrate]

18. A Mild Disagreement, My Friend

We must be clear about what it is that is necessary in this question. What is necessary is not to appeal to the hard-core fundamentalist voter. What is necessary is to isolate the hard-core fundamentalist from more moderate and sensible Christians, who are present even in the various "born again" and evangelical sects. Laughter and ridicule are useful tools to such an endeavor.

"Who has no enemies has no friends."

[Pithlet]

53. Well said, as usual, sir.

:)

[prodigal_green]

26. Then moderate Christians need to call out the fundies.

We insisted that moderate Muslims speak out against fundamentalism in their faith after 9/11 and to a certain degree they did.

We don't hear too much from the mainstream Christians in this country. Part of the problem may be tht it isn't sexy enough for the media--extremism always makes better television, but folks have got to take control of this themselves.

Until that time, I have no problem mocking willfull ignorance of rapture-ready, creationist, Bush-is-talking-for-God, fundamentalists.

Give them no quarter.

[sangh0]

38. So again, it's not just the religious right that gets blamed

It's always someone else's fault. Never ours. We don't have to change anything. After all, we won, right? We must have done everything right, right?

Then moderate Christians need to call out the fundies.

They have. They've spent millions on their campaign. They even had a full page ad in the NY Times. They have a petition with thousands and thousands of signatures.

We don't hear too much from the mainstream Christians in this country

We? I've heard plenty. Maybe you haven't been paying close enough attention.

[JPace]

42. I'm glad they have put a full page ad in the NY Times

but most people who are fundamentalist don't read the Times.
I don't know how they are going to get their voices heard
but I do hope they will. The fundamentalists have the repug
party....that means they have it all now. It will be hard
to get a voice loud enough to be able to project another
view or engage in an exchange of ideas.

[sangh0]

65. Huh?

Are you suggesting that moderate and liberal christians go and debate the fundamentalists?

That would be a major waste of time. They don't listen to anyone but their pastors.

The fundamentalists have the repug party.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough about this, but I don't want to convert any of the fundies. That's nearly impossible. What I think we need to do is make it clear to the other Christians that our problem is with those who want to impose their beliefs on us, and not those christians who respect our rights to believe as we choose.

[sangh0]

27. Thank you for saying that, KoKo01

.

[JPace]

30. There is another way to "frame" the issue and "frame"

is what the repugs did. They have Democrats looking like
Godless pagans who cannot be trusted with running the
country.

We are a nation of religious tolerance, the very reason for
separation of church and state. Already anyone who is not
of the fundamentalist faith is feeling a bit nervous about
what is happening. The takeover of a government by religion
of any kind is going to be a disaster for everyone.

Moderate Churches, Mosques and synagogues need to unite into
a movement that has a voice loud enough to make an impact
in the country stating why there needs to be a separation
of church and state. I truly believe that many Christians
don't understand that forcing through laws based on religious
principles is a terrible idea. It would evolve into a form
of American Taliban whipping into shape all those who defy
its commandments. It is scary. I don't think it is for the
Democrats to become openly professors of faith as much as
it is for those who do not think we have any to look closer
at the Christian values we truly have. Feeding the poor,
educating everyone equally, seeing that everyone makes a
living wage, seeing those different than ourselves as valuable
and just a worthy of respect according to their beliefs.
Already we are being taught to see the world in good and evil
terms (religious values) and so its easier to kill the "evil"
ones. It is frightening what is happening and I almost
cannot believe it.
I call myself Christian but I believe in many religions, this
is not true for some fundamentalists who believe I am going to
hell because I have not been "saved". This core belief makes
them what I call predatory in nature...they must grow because
they feel it is their duty to assimilate you. Its what Jesus
wants, no matter who you are you are seen as either with them
or lost and damned. I don't know what is to become of the whole
thing but the thought of our government becoming this way is
unnerving.
I have great respect for religious people, they have wonderful values and live good lives, but I just wish fundamentalists were more tolerant of those who are different from them. Because we don't want to be saved does not mean we are doomed or bad. That is an
awful way to look a people who believe differently than yourself.

[sangh0]

40. Yes, that is true, but unfortunately

we have helped the repukes frame it this way by expressing hostility at people who believe in God.

[JPace]

43. Some people in the party are not religious,

some even detest religion, but I would bet that
most Dems are people of faith and most have not
mocked religion. That is something the repugs
have capitalized on but it is not true.

[shugah]

45. have you ever heard the saying "you set 'em up

i knock 'em down?"

"fundies" are fodder for humor, and i think you can relax - most of them won't get offended because they will never understand why we go into hysterical fits of laughter when we are "making fun of them."

as far as attacking christians, or any other set of religiously minded folk - i'm pretty sure that religion has been a staple of comedy for a long time - for instance, "a priest, a rabbi, and an athiest walk into a bar and the bartender says 'what is this? some kind of a joke?' " did you happen to see the middle eastern comedians on the extras that came with the farenheit 9/11 DVD? those guys were funny! the fact that thier humor was based in truth simply made it more funny.

and really, what is up with you can bash them in the privacy of your own home, but shouldn't bash them publicly? i, as one who has spent the last four years being told to shut-up, and recognizing that the next 4 years will be a continuation of that request, but much louder, find that i just won't shut my loud liberal mouth. and i probably never would have opened it in the first place, if there hadn't been someone telling me i couldn't.

the fundamentalist christians (with some exceptions) are the far right, or at least they are the base that is supporting the neocons in destroying democracy and our country.

nero reportedly fiddled while rome burned. i'm just going to laugh. "laughter," as the conservative reader's digest assures us, "is the best medicine." and while i don't buy into most of the other religious, wing-nut shit they spew, i do beleive they have that one honest thing in thier rag.

i don't know about you, but humor keeps me sane. nothing can't be laughed at.

[LoZoccolo]

48. I think we should talk about separation of church and state...

...and like, that's about it. Anything else can be construed as using the government to play the opposite side in a culture war, or to get rid of freedom of religion (which we've directly been accused of) and that will just steel the opposition (which is why they lie and say we want to ban the Bible and stuff) and this kind of conflict is just what separation of church and state is meant to prevent. I don't like what the religious right has done, but we need to acknowledge the ways in which we end up almost creating the religious right. For example, people don't like how we put "In God we trust" on our money, but don't acknowledge how it was done amidst of fear that communists would force people to give up their religion.

[Raenelle]

54. Great. Now you're going to censor what we say too. Ashcroft

didn't do enough of it for you.

[6000eliot]

55. The Romans were right

to set the lions on them! Fuck them! I'm sick of them having so much say over what's right and wrong. They've been smug and self-satisfied from the very begining.

[truthpusher]

64. They made fun of Kerry for looking French for Christ's sake!!!

...when liberals make fun of fundies, they can't stand it because they aren't funny and we are!!

[are_we_united_yet]

66. I agree

The Confederate Flag does not embody the institution of slavery for everybody and that is hard for some folks to come to terms with.

Personally, I still have a visceral (negative) response to it but it annoys me most when a Northener displays it. Like what the f#ck do they know about the South and the Confederacy and why do they feel the need to display it so prominently? My 1.5 cents.

[Blecht]

68. That Confederate Flag Belongs in One Place

And one place only -- in the cemetary for all the people who died in that horrible war.

Any other use of it is fucking racist, ignorant, insensitive or a combination of all three.