Dems against gays - no wonder we can't win elections

[LTRS]

As a gay activist, let me tell you guys something - the gay community is totally demoralized right now. Not only did 11 states decide to make us 2nd class citizens under the law on Tues, but in some of those states those ballot measures may even disolve the legal partnerships we do have like wills, trusts, power of atty, and so forth with our LIFELONG partners. Next on the right wings agenda is taking away our adoption rights. Our children are going to be attacked next.

Then, if that isn't enough, we get treated to 3 days of non-stop media about how those nasty gay people cost Kerry the election, which is total bullshit. Those folks would have voted for Bush anyway. Did it drive them to the polls? Maybe. But Rove would have found another way, just like he did in 2000 and 2002, where we also lost.

And to top it off, now die hard dems who happen to be gay and read DU have to see non-stop crap on here about "well, gee, maybe we should sell out equal rights" Hell with those nasty gays.

Here's reality - no dem politician has every done a single GD thing for gays on a federal level except vote NOT to vote on the FMA. That's it -- in 20 yrs of our fighting. Nothing, nada, zilch.

Yet we turn out for them election after election after election. 3.5 million of us every time and those are just the ones that admit they are gay. It's probably more like 6 or 7 million and we vote at a rate of 85% turnout every election. You think you can win without us? You can't win without us anymore than you can win without the black or hispanic vote.

You people who say "screw gays" in not so many words with your posts should think about your stance again, or maybe gays will say screw you right back next time you want us to vote for a dem.

[ronnykmarshall]

1. You bet your ass!

I will NOT EVER vote for a candidate that will tell me to sit at the back of the bus.

[eleny]

2. I agree with you and will never ever say "screw gays" to get votes

If you can't stand for anything, then there's no sense to it.

I haven't read the other thread(s) because I was afraid I'd see what you found. I'm sorry there was even one word about it.

[SCRUBDASHRUB]

4. I'm straight but not narrow as the saying goes. I will never, ever vote

for a candidate in our or any party who bashes gays or supports legislation that discriminates against gays or any other group. As a Jewish person...as a human being... this horrifies me. I think I'm going to join the ACLU after this election. I'm disgusted at the hypocrisy of the so-called 'morals' of the people who voted for Bush. It's not moral to vote to discriminate against gays. It's not moral to vote against stem cell research, something that could potentially save millions of lives. It's not moral to not provide health care for all Americans. It's not moral to not create jobs. W stands for We're (really) fucked (now).

[Toucano]

3. I know I'm at the back of the bus

because I'm tired from doing all the pushing.

[AndyTiedye]

5. You Will Never Hear That From Me

We must not let this diabolical Rovian plot divide us.

[SCRUBDASHRUB]

12. Agree completely w/ your sentiment, Andy.

[lancdem]

6. I agree that if it weren't gay marriage

Rove would've exploited something else.

Your post is very eloquent.

[hollywood926]

7. I agree totally...election fraud aside, this is the problem...

Tom Daschle hugging the Nazi Shrub in his ads...give me a break. Dems need to stop pandering to the right. It doesn't work. None of the toothless hillbillies are going to vote for you, anyway. You'd better embrace your people; the gays, the women, the blacks, the sane.

[HappinessPie]

8. Thank you - this has been disgusting me too. I totally agree.

[SCRUBDASHRUB]

10. Welcome to DU, Happiness Pie.

[MuseRider]

9. You are either

a bigot or you are not. To me, and this is just my humble opinion, if you can't support equal rights for all people then you might as well be a bigot. I understand why there is the talk because everyone is so worried and upset but when it comes right down to it, after all the freaking is over, you either support everyone or you may as well not be a Democrat. Big tent people, that is what this party has always been about. Again, this is JMHO. I am not calling anyone here (who is still here) a bigot.

[kdmorris]

11. I keep trying to think of something to say,

but, quite frankly, nothing really seems to work. Everything that you say is true. I'm frankly appalled at some of the crap I've seen posted. In some ways, I feel toward homosexual people today as I did the rest of the world on Wednesday. Like I should apologize, even though I didn't do anything.

Ah, hell with it. I AM sorry that even people who profess to be "progressive" can be so bigoted, hateful and have such a win at all costs mentality.

:hug:

[Crago]

13. Re: "Dems against gays - no wonder we can't win elections"

Yet we turn out for them election after election after election. 3.5 million of us every time and those are just the ones that admit they are gay. It's probably more like 6 or 7 million and we vote at a rate of 85% turnout every election. You think you can win without us? You can't win without us anymore than you can win without the black or hispanic vote.>>

First, I must say, I am sorry you are hurting. But, remember "we" did not win. Look, I don't care, but the very thought of two gay men walking down the street wearing wedding bands SCARES THE IMMORTAL HELL OUT OF AT LEAST A THIRD OF THE COUNTRY! And they came out and voted.....for Bush! That is a fact!

[Bluebear]

And where is that FACT from? CNN?

Why do you accept that "moral issues" were the deciding point? Exit polls? The exit polls say Kerry won. But believe what the Rovian machine tells you if it makes you think you will win the next football game.

[LTRS]

18. Those people aren't going to vote dem anyway

And anyone who thinks they would is just dreaming.

[foreigncorrespondent]

34. NO!!!!!!

What is a FACT is all the stories coming out about the voting problems in Ohio, Fla, etc, etc, etc. The facts are, the numbers are NOT adding up, and that is the problem. But what have some narrow minded idiots on DU done since Tuesday? Nothing but bloody well complain about the queers costing them the election.

Now isn't the time for us to begin fighting with one another. Now is the time to get out there and make sure people know the numbers do NOT add up. And we should not stop until all the votes have been counted, all the problems fixed, the voting machines thrown in the dump, and Kerry in the White House!

[Laughing Mirror]

81. One-third of the country voted on touch screens

owned and operated by private, Republican corporations. That is the only fact we have.

If two men walking down the street wearing a wedding band is more scary than two men walking down the street in uniform carrying a machine gun, then they just better learn to get over it.

[area51]

85. Greg Palast

According to Greg Palast, we did win. It wasn't gay people/bogus "morals" issues that makes people think Shrub won, it's vote fraud.

[Jersey Devil]

14. I think all this bushit about losing due to gay marriage is a Rovian trick

designed to drive a wedge between the Democrats.

I'll never vote for a bigoted party or candidate just to win an election.

[Bluebear]

15. The most anti-gay shit I have read has been on DU

And even when people were urged, begged, to stop or at least tone it down, here comes another essay. This board is interesting but fast becoming clear where we stand with a big portion of "Democrats".

[bicentennial_baby]

16. I'm appalled by DU this week

As a bi female, I'm getting hit from both sides, and this place is blowing my mind. There is one thing in this universe that I have no tolerance for, and it's bigotry. Equal human rights for all, regardless of race, gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation, or religious affiliation. :mad:

ps- hehe...I just realized that I'm bigoted towards bigots. Ouch! I guess that's some hypocrisy I can live with. :P

[Liberal Veteran]

17. Yeah...I actually had someone on DU blame 94 on gays....

And my only thought was wow. The party leadership went to bat on that one....we got a whole question removed from an enlistment form in the military and the number of gays and lesbians kicked out WENT UP in decade afterwards.

We backed down with a compromise that really wasn't worth jack shit, but that person right here DU was throwing it in my face like it was the fucking Emancipation Proclamation or something and raving about how much it cost us.

Glad to know he is the minority at this site.

[queerart]

19. Amen!

Thanks For Saying it!

[kayell]

20. Too true. I never liked Kerry's wishy washy stance on gay rights.

It was barely better than *s stated stance. But I rallied behind him and the party simply because the alternative was so horrible. And I spent time and money I didn't have working for Kerry's election.

But you know, IF I survive the next 4 years of *s hell, I'll know they can't possibly throw much worse at me. Why would I possibly want to expend my efforts or vote on a proposed campaign that would consider my rights even less than the candidate did this year? Why would I want to associate with anyone calling themselves a dem that looks at me the same way that a repuke does? In a "kinder, gentler" bigoted way of course. :eyes:

[LTRS]

21. Thank you! I feel the same way....

I work my butt off for dems, I give money and time. And I even do it in between elections. So yeah, I feel just a tad bitter to be villainized not just by the people I knew were villainizing me to win this election, but also by the people I have been loyal too as well. It's truly a bummer.

[Not Me]

22. This morning on Unfiltered (AAR) Rachel and Liz

were advancing the meme, "Mandate, my ass!"

Toward the end of the show, I got to thinking, we should never give up on our principles...if anything we need to celebrate the divide.
Not only are we on the moral high road, but we know the younger people are coming of age with our ideals.

And even more immediately, Bush** is going to implode in this 2nd term. Absolutlely no question about it. And when that happens, what the reds repudiated is going to start to make sense to them.

The fight is hardly over.

[LTRS]

24. You make a great point - 18-29 age group is FIRMLY

in our corner, by massive numbers (something like well into the high 60%'s when surveyed)

That's why national survey's show 62% of the population as a whole supports either civil unions or marriage. Only 38% think we should have neither. Screw them! Like I said, those folks aren't going to vote dem anyway.

[BeFree]

23. Gonna leave the dems, eh?

Where ya gonna go?

Look, gay people are an aberration to most of America, and will be for a long long time, and the dems are not gonna shove gayness on the American sheeple, no one is.

You say dems have never done anything for gays. That's bullshit and you know it. Clinton went well out of his way and got slammed pretty good for doing the "don't ask don't tell".

Look, the gay issues on the ballot cost dems 2 or 3 points, at least. Now, I dunno if it was planned that way or what, I don't care, but it did cost us. If you can't admit it, well...

Look, I used to fear/hate gays, so I know how most of America feels, and it's just a fact of life, like many other bad things. People are not as evolved as we would hope, and they ain't changing any time soon, so get used to it.

Actually, were I gay, I'd form a corporation with my partner, that's the American way. A corporation is nothing more than a marriage anyway, eh?

[LTRS]

27. I'll stay home, and I can tell you the rest of us

will too. We donate 20 - 25 million dollars a cycle to dem candidates as well too. I'm perfectly happy to stay home and shut down my wallet too.

Trust me, I could turn into a single issue voter pretty soon. If you think that's silly, let me tell you why. I have child, and I want him to get social security if something happens to me, and he wants his parents to be married like everyone else's parents get to.

And I don't think I should have to pay taxes on the house we own together if something happens to her simply because I'm not exempt from those "gift / inheritance" taxes like married people are.

We have health care benefits through a SSDP plan, but most people don't. I think we all should be able to get family insurance if we are a family. AND WE ARE a family.

I don't think I should have to explain to every doctor or nurse why they should let that person see me or be with me when I am in the hospital.

And lastly, I don't think I should have to pay more taxes than you because the value of my health care benefits is treated like wages, unlike straight married people.

So yeah, I could sit home, and so could 3.5 million others. Easily.

[BeFree]

33. Sit home and that's all you'll ever do

Ya know, America is not just about you and right now. There is a history and many possible futures. Sit home and you've given up, and your lot, or your kids lot will never improve.

I think everyone should have the same rights, but there are people, not just gays, whose rights are trampled every day. Gay people are not special, and if you are ever to get your rights, you'll have to fight.

As it now stands, dems are the best vehicle to get everyone's rights established and walking away because your feelings are hurt is NOT going to help you, your kids, or anyone else who believes in Justice for all.

[LTRS]

37. Really? How is that....

When no dem politician has ever advanced a single bill for us in congress -- not in 20 yrs. What makes them the great hope, exactly? Let me tell you some reality - dem politicians are "for" a lot of things they don't fight for, and likely never will.

That's why people don't vote for them.

[Sapphocrat]

42. Well, one has, LTRS...

But I'll bet 99% of the LGBT community isn't aware of it, because it affects only a tiny fraction of us: The Permanent Partners Immigration Act, introduced in the House in 2000 by the great (and, AFAIK, straight) Jerry Nadler (D-NY).

Of course, it's gone nowhere, despite much impassioned begging from those of us screwed by anti-gay INS policy.

Other than that, zip, zilch, nada, niente. Fini.

[LTRS]

43. I meant gotten passed

PPIA has what, 130 co-sponsors? A fraction of dems. And I talk to the about it - I lobby for that kind of thing. Half of them say 9/11 when I bring it up -- can't sponsor any immigration. As if that had anything to do with 9/11. Are terrorists gonna pretend to be gay so they can get into the country? I kind of doubt it, right? But that is what they say. Can't touch anything with immigration.

And even if that doesn't affect me it breaks my heart. I helped put on a town hall about it once -- it's a big issue in Seattle, with Canada so close -- and the stories from the couples ripped apart when the visa ends will break your heart.

[foreigncorrespondent]

52. Yeah!

Haters will use 9/11 for any excuse to get out of actually doing something good.

If that is the case then they need to stop old man Billy Bob from the back woods being able to sponsor his mail order bride for immigration as well. Terrorists can pretend to be mail order brides too!

Oh it does break both Sapphs and my heart. We live this nightmare every day, but even hearing from the countless couples it still breaks our hearts to no end.

Plus we also know of couples who have broken up after long relationships through traveling back and forth, because they simply couldn't handle it any longer.

[PretzelzRule]

62. "As it now stands...

...dems are the best vehicle to get everyone's rights established and walking away because your feelings are hurt is NOT going to help you, your kids, or anyone else who believes in Justice for all."

Well, neither will throwing a whole group of people in front of a speeding bus. :grr:

[BeFree]

68. Is that an accusation?

that dems have thrown gays in front of a bus?

WTF?

[Sapphocrat]

36. You're pretty darn sure of yourself, aren't you?

Keep daring us to leave, and I'm sure more than a few will. If you truly believe the Dems can afford to lose our votes and our money, you just go right ahead singing that popular little ditty, "Oh, Yeah, Where Ya Gonna Go (I Dare Ya, I Dare Ya, Nyeah, Nyeah, Nyeah)."

Taking anyone for granted is cocky, foolish, and -- as you should have learned by now -- a grave mistake.

[BeFree]

57. Hey, leave

Where would you go, the republican party? They are the ones totally against you, not dems.

It's odd that ya'll attack me. Very odd. Maybe there is something about gays that is aberrant? I dunno, keep attacking maybe we'll all figure it out, eh?

[Sapphocrat]

59. You think THAT was an "attack"? Oh, that's rich! ROFLMAO!

And while it's obvious that you'd love me and all my "aberrant" brothers and sisters to leave the Dems, I'm not going anywhere. (Gee, where did I ever say I was?)

[BeFree]

65. Sorry

The post was misplaced, it was not directed at YOU.

I don't want ya'll to leave, it just seems like some of you are threatening to do so, and my response is: Where the hell will you go? The puke party?

Actually, I am trying to reason with ya'll to stay with the party for your own good. It has been supportive of gays, at great cost, but a cost that must be borne. If yall can't see that, well, leave.

[foreigncorrespondent]

61. Hmmm!!!

Let me see if I have this right, you tell us to leave the democratic party. A party for which the queer community in large numbers has stood by even though they have had to take the back seat on the bus time and time again. And then you have the nerve to call us aberrant, then accuse Sapph of an attack? That is truly low, even for you BeFree.

[BeFree]

63. No, you have it all wrong

But you would never admit it.

I have been attacked by some of you, just as you've attacked the only political friends you have, that's the aberrant part.

[LTRS]

64. Honestly, if you are a political friend then...

gays and lesbians should have long ago left the dem party. Better not to be involved in the process at all if you are what we should consider a political friend.

I don't think we will be there for you next election. I don't think you understand how sick we are of all this. Scapegoating us is a huge mistake for the democratic party.

[BeFree]

66. See? An attack

Blaming me for your problems, where, if you read my words, I'm trying to help you, and the dems.

[LTRS]

71. No, I am blaming you for your attitude

that as much as dems simply lip synch about equality but never really do anything about it, we should just support dems anyway because repugs are worse.

We have another alternative. We can decline to support either one of the parties. And really, what would be the difference in terms of equality if we did just drop out of the process of supporting federal legislators? Nothing. Because dems aren't doing anything for us anyway.

Get a clue - your attitude is exactly why fewer and fewer minorities support dems in every election.

[BeFree]

75. It's your attitude that is the problem

And after this little go around, if I were bigoted, I'd never lend a hand. There are other battles to be waged, battles that have a greater impact on a greater number of people, and gays are not a priority for some people. I know that pisses you off, but that's how it goes, that's life, get used to it.

Keep alienating folks and it will only get worse.

[LTRS]

77. What hand are you lending, exactly?

What have you done to help advance the cause of equality? What dem legislator in any of those 11 states stood up for us and said these amendments are wrong? Please do tell.

[BeFree]

78. Help

I support ideas, actions and legislation that affirms every human being is afforded equal rights.

I know nothing of those 11 states and those amendments. I do know that the dem party has supported equality for all, the specifics I am not too aware of. But generally speaking, dems are on the correct course as opposed to the pukes, eh?

I get the idea that you are attacking the dems, and I wonder why. What is your real motivation? Are you really even gay, or do you just act like one on DU? Whatever, I doubt you've won any new support, IMO.

[foreigncorrespondent]

72. That wasn't an attack!

Stop doing a boy who cried wolf routine!

No where in this thread do I see you trying to help us and the dems. All you are managing to do here is split the dem party even further. Well done!!!

[BeFree]

73. I'm splitting the party?

That's fucking aberrant!

[foreigncorrespondent]

80. Oh!

No, what is fucking wrong here is you are continuing to push it, what do you wantto do, alert on me, so you can get me banned from DU? Go for it!!!!!

You are the one that crossed the line, and when you come under fire for calling queers something other than normal you are the one who cries wolf and pretends to be the victim, not me, and certainly not one single queer on DU.

[foreigncorrespondent]

70. BeFee...

...you don't know me from a bar of soap, so you don't begin to say what I will and won't admit.

If I saw an attack I would admit it, but no where did I see Sapph attack you. What I saw was you come out and accuse her of attacking then further calling us queers aberrant. Do you know how much of a hot word that is for us?

And now you backpeddle because you realize how far over the line you took this. I'm sorry, but I refuse to sit back and watch you call us something that is a deviation from what is normal, and then say it was us attacking our political mates is what it is. That is pure bullshit!

[BeFree]

76. Hot under the collar, eh?

You've practically called me an enemy, me, and the dem party. It's obvious you don't really want to discuss this, you just want your victim hood. Well, just about everybody is a victim in one way or another, gays are not all that aberrant in that regard.

Native Indians, Irish, Blacks, Women in general, have all been severely victimized. Yall are not that special.

[foreigncorrespondent]

79. Mate...

...if Iwanted to claim to be a victim in something it certainly wouldn't be something to do with my being a lesbian. So did you assume to know me, and then assume I am claiming to be a victim, because I'm not. I am proud of who I am, and the woman I love.

[queerart]

47. Slow Down On Your Coffee Intake.....

Opppssss......

I Messed Up!

;-)

I need to reduce my coffee intake:-)

Sorry!

[Ms. Toad]

49. Clinton did not go out of his way for gays.

He signed the first DOMA, the first major kick in the teeth by the dems for no reason other than to pander to the fear mongers.

The gay issues were put on the ballot by the right wing, not the dems, not the gays.If it had not been that issue, it would have been a constitutional amendment to ban partial birth abortions state by state or some other issue designed to drive the these folks who do not usually vote to the polls.

You also need to educate yourself as to the law before you spout legal nonsense about the similarity between corporations and marriage.

[Laughing Mirror]

82. How am I supposed to "form a corporation with my partner"

when I am not in business with my partner, and my partner (I say Husband) is a foreigner and is not allowed to come and live with me in America as straight married couples do?

You see your corporation plan doesn't work. Not everything in America is business. The American way, as I know it, is the pursuit of happiness. Says so in the Constitution. Your happiness, My happiness.

America may not be changing any time soon as you claim, but neither are we gay people. We are not going away and we've come too far to back down now. Get used to THAT!

[BeFree]

83. Gays have some rights

Yall are not totally excluded from everything like say Black people were. Some of the problems yall have are economical problems: inheritance, etc.

Corporations are soutions to economical problems. If you form a corporation and hire each other, then you have more rights under the law.

It is not a solution but a possible way to get around some of the blocks in your way.

[Laughing Mirror]

84. I told you I am not able to form any goddam corporation

nor should I have to. You do not need to tell gay people and black people about our rights. You need to fight in our party so that we can have them, the same as we fight for your equal and civil rights. We are all in this together.

[queerart]

25. This Is An Honest Question Free Of Any Drama

Would it be better to form a "Gay Party", or the like just for us?

Keep in mind that in Italy they have something like 67 different parties.... and for "ANYONE" to win... they must share goals, and the like with other parties if they plan to win.

I never believed it before... but now I'm thinking just 2 parties simply is not enough. Both Dems, & Rep. are treating us "nearly" the same. Now I am not talking about picking up our ball and going home.... But to simply smile, say Thanks..... and have our own program.

I hope all of that made sense......

[LTRS]

28. Or maybe we could just join the Green Party

They firmly support equal rights.

[queerart]

45. Indeed!

I may look into that further............

[foreigncorrespondent]

41. Queerart...

...that would be the perfect answer to the problem with in the LGBT community.

Our problem is we can't motivate enough of us to take an interest in their very own rights.

My partner and I have been working for the last five years with binational gay and lesbian couples, and we can't motivate them to take an interest in working towards getting immigration equality. And trying to motivate the larger community, has been an even bigger joke.

Forming our own political party would be the answer to motivating the community. People just don't realize how much of a driving force we would be if we all came together.

As for the posts that have been around here lately. Both Sapph and I really appreciate what Skinner did yesterday. He really came to bat for us. But regardless of that, the posts are still there. And it is because of the heavy fire the queer DUers come under every few months that Sapph and I created a safe haven for queers, bisexuals, transexuals, and all our straight allies to gather and work towards the same goals in a place where we won't come under fire for doing it.

But if you are serious about trying to form a new political party for us queers, then the forum we set up can be used as a base to begin to work out everything. The link is http://www.goqueer.com/forums/index.php?act=idx

And no we aren't trying to recruit anyone away from DU, they should consider what Sapph and I have done more of a suppliment to DU for when things begin to get too rough.

[queerart]

44. You Made Good Points! n/t

:hi:

[Plaid Adder]

26. Absolutely GD right. Every election cycle we have to take one for the team

This time around, we weren't supposed to be pissed off at Kerry and Edwards for not supporting same-sex marriage. Before that, we weren't supposed to be pissed off at Clinton for signing DOMA. Before that, we weren't supposed to mind that he welched on his promise to lift the ban on gays in the military. And we're also not supposed to mind that ENDA has yet to be passed and undoubtedly never will be.

Here's something y'all may not get about the anti-gay initiatives on the ballots, too: that is not necessarily proof that the RW fundies turned out in force. The sad thing is that once you put something like that on a ballot it usually passes because apart from, you know, us and the people who care about us, nobody wants to vote against them. That's why you have to fight to keep the fucking things OFF the ballots, because once it gets to that point, defeating an anti-gay initiative takes a fucking miracle. It's even harder in the case of gay marriage, where it's possible for well-meaning straight people to tell themselves it isn't hurting us to vote against same-sex marriage. It is, but you know what, I'm sick of trying to explain it to people.

My point is that we have never yet got a presidential candidate who was really willing to stick his neck out for us. Kerry came closest, and it really was not that close. And yet, apparently, it was too close for comfort for a lot of our fellow-Democrats.

Sigh,

The Plaid Adder

[LTRS]

30. Exactly! Couldn't have said it better

Thank you for that post. I'm saving it and memorizing it for the next time someone brings this up with me in person. Right effin on!

[jjanpundt]

29. Isn't the Democratic Party supposed to be the Big Tent

with people of every religion, sexual orientation, skin color, gender are all welcome? So now in order to be rethug lite it's a big tent except for gays? Isn't that total abandonment of our primary principles? Which group would we then sacrifice if we lost another election? We have to stick to our basic belief of equal rights for everyone. If that alienates a block of voters than we just need to get more of our people to the polls.

[Zhade]

31. THANK YOU.

NT!

[foreigncorrespondent]

32. Woooooooo hooooooooooo!!!!

You go girl!!!! You have my full support with this thread. :)

[are_we_united_yet]

35. Agreed.

Democratic party should be for Civil Rights. If they abandon the Gay community, that means they'll abandon the rest of us for votes as well.

This moral values shit is another Karl Rove (a.k.a Shithead ) sound bite invention some loser fundie can recite. What a prick Rove is!

[ever_green]

38. exactly!

Dem candidates claim to be antiwar, for gay rights, and for the poor, but does anything actually get done? These people don't think so.

[Robeson]

39. The bigots in our party are far smaller in number....

...than the gays in our party. And if there's any group in our party that needs to be jettisoned to the wayside, its the bigots. Let them go to the Republicans, they'd welcome more bigots.

[LTRS]

40. I'm seeing that in this thread - thanks!

... to all of you!

[NightTrain]

46. Here's what I wrote in a thread similar to this one.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2613319&mesg_id=2613514

[gulliver]

48. Gay marriage was pushed too hard, too fast.

I sympathize with your cause, but we all have to sacrifice and be patient for our causes. I thought the gay marriage push was poorly timed. It could have waited.

Gay marriage is nothing like the moral imperative that black civil rights was and is. Black "equal rights" are far less equal than those of gays to this day. Really think about that.

Gay anger at being denied full social equality complemented and aroused non-gay anger at the prospect of having the bedrock tradition of marriage forcibly redefined. Both sides tried to resort to force this time. Gays lost, and so did their friends.

Screw the gays? No. But that doesn't mean that in the spirit of friendship, they can't be told that some of them acted like assholes.

[LTRS]

50. 25-30 yrs of supporting Dems with nothing in return

... is plenty of patience. We acted like assholes to pursue our rights? I'm sorry, I disagree.

Yes, there is plenty of social and racial injustice in the world, but last time I checked blacks could not be discriminated against (at least legally) in housing and jobs, and they also don't have pay taxes at a higher rate than white people, and when their partner goes to the hospital, they don't need a legal writ to visit them in intensive care. They also get social security.

I don't know who has it worse since I am not black, but I can sure as hell tell you they have more LEGAL rights than I do.

[sandnsea]

56. Nothing?

Okay, I understand your frustration with the last few days on DU. I share it.

But when you say you've gotten nothing in 25-30 years, well then you're just being full of shit. And when you say you've gotten nothing from John Kerry in 20 years, you're even more full of shit. You may not think it was a big deal that he introduced equal rights in the workplace back in the 80's, but maybe you've forgotten the AIDS and gay hysteria at the time. You may think it's nothing that he fought for Ryan White legislation too, but there's a whole lot of gay people who benefited from the drugs and other assistance. And there will be alot more folks benefitting from the AIDS legislation he wrote in 2000.

We wouldn't even be talking about gay marriage if it weren't for the Democratic Party standing beside you all these years. And John Kerry as well.

So go ahead and be pissed about people wanting to throw you to the wolves the last few days. But you can get off your high horse when you start saying people haven't fought for you at all for the last 30 years. In fact, I just dumped a 10 year friendship over gay marriage 2 weeks ago.

[BeFree]

58. You tell 'em sandnsea

They'd best listen to you. They've got supporters in the dem party and what do they do? They attack it and denigrate the party.

Complete idiocy, if you ask me. Sure, they have reason to be upset, but they want it all, right now, without much realization of how big changes take time. I personally know several people who voted against Kerry because of his support for gays. Not that these people were all there to begin with, but had Kerry taken the helm, things would surely have gotten better for gays. Now, they are in trouble.

[LTRS]

60. That's right - nothing!

Name me a single piece of federal legislation passed on the issue of equality for gays. Even when they held the majority they did not do this.

John was one of only 13 Senators to vote against DOMA when it passed anyway, and then Clinton signed it. Not only have they not faught to pass legislation for equal rights, most of them have stabbed us in the back on them.

They talk a good game, but they do nothing for us when it comes to gaining equality.

In exit polling and other polls, better than 60% of the public support SOME form of legal recognition for gay partnerships. Why haven't the dems, including John Kerry, who SAYS he supports it, introduce legislation for federal civil unions?

It's all talk, no action.

[Ms. Toad]

51. Sorry, but unless you are the one being kicked in the teeth

you don't have the right to make the decision about how long to lie on the ground smiling. It is never "acting like an asshole" to stand up and refuse to be kicked anymore - whether you have been lying on the ground for a day or a lifetime.

When the Lovings asked the courts to require Virginia to recognize their interracial marriage, was that using force? It is precisely the same question. That's how we resolve tough issues - the courts are designed to protect the rights of the minority that would otherwise be trampled by majority vote.

As far as gay marriage not being anything like the moral imperative that black civil rights was and is - you need to spend some time in heart to heart conversations with men and women who have been refused permission to be with their loved ones as they lay dying because they had no legal relationship to each other; with those who have been evicted from the homes they have shared with their life partners for decades because the biological family took all of the property the couple had built together with the blessing of the court; with a mother denied the opportunity to even visit with the child she raised from birth because either the other mother moved out taking the child or the other mother died and the child's biological relatives refuse to permit the child to see her non-biological mother; or with the woman who was raped and her partner left dying because they dared hold hands in public.

Nope, no moral imperative there. </sarcasm>

[foreigncorrespondent]

53. And who pushed it???

The repukes, not the queer community!!!

And on top of that, who the fuck fell for this little repuke trap, the countless dems (including ones on this board) who shit themselves at the thought of queers actually having some equality for a change.

And don't you start comparing the queer fight with the black fight, because we have been over this too many times on DU. They are both civil rights issues! No fucking difference.

And who was acting like assholes? The ones that actually got married? They were fucking taking what they got handed to them, because they wanted to feel equal even if it was just until they finished saying their I do's.

[Bluebear]

54. I have friends who are going to lose their house.

They have been together 23 years. One is chronically ill from an autoimmune disorder. He has no health insurance. The other is physically fit and has been with the same firm for 18 years. Yet he cannot claim his partner on his medical insurance. They have postponed trips, done without things in order to afford medical treatment, and may lose their house soon. The ill partner "owns a house" and is not eligible for public medical assistance. Yet, at the working partner's job, a new administrative assistant who is 23 and was hired last December just met a guy (like two months ago) and they are marrying soon. And both will be insured. I'll be sure to tell the gay couple that gay marriage is nothing like the moral imperative that black civil rights was and is.

[IrishBloodEngHeart]

69. If they've been together 23 years

why don't they own the house jointly?

[RBHam]

55. THE ELECTION WAS STOLEN

Get it?

Gay people are not the reason the Dems lost - the FRAUD is the reason.

Say it again. Get used to it. It's the FUCKING truth.

FRAUD!!!

[IrishBloodEngHeart]

67. Ralph Nader is ideologically pure. Maybe we should follow him?

Just kidding, but you have to be practical.


Nobody is saying screw gays, what people are saying is we have to deliver a disciplined, consistant message regarding gay rights and frame it in a way that seperates it from religous issues. Most people consider marriage to be a religous institition and not a civil institution. Until that changes, we will have to be satisfied distinguishing civil rights with language that doesn't imply religion, and protecting gays in that way, giving them full civil rights.

[PittLib]

74. I support you completely...

and I will not compromise that. I went to work yesterday and just when I thought I was done crying, I had to face gay friends (male and female)who had lost more than I could imagine. The fact we had to work with Bush supporting co-workers, who pretend to be friends, was more than I wanted to bear. One of them cornered me to gloat ... and I snapped "Go brag to (name) and (name) about you sold out their chance for equality ... tell them that you voted to make them second class citizens". He stammered, "I wouldn't go that far" to which I said "Of course not, chickenshit". Sorry, I'm venting a bit. I just read this in my paper ... it applies whether you support gay rights implicitly or not.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04311/407474.stm

[buckettgirl]

86. personally...

i have said this many times in the past four years to my family - who although they are pretty liberal, just aren't sure about gay rights.
I have told them: "How would you like it if someone asked you why you wanted to get married? Love knows no bounds, no race, no gender - it is universal and eternal."
I have also told them: "What we really need in office is a black or hispanic lesbian single mother."
I am not bein sarcastic, I am completely serious. I would love it if minorities could be represented in such a fashion. I have to wonder what the fundies would do then.
I am pro-gay rights all the way... the only problem is I live in Kansas, which makes it difficult to speak up for anything that is not for the white christian (straight)male.

[okieinpain]

87. sorry, gays got there asses kicked. black's got their asses kicked

and the white leadership of this group will get a nice big fat paycheck. we lost because we suck, and yes I know they cheated with the machines, and other dirty tricks.

but the fact is we knew it was coming and we still did not have our shit together. it was still chaos coming into the final week. we should have had all of our people registered, everybody should have know where their polling places were. hell man, we should have had this shit down to a science. we should have had a lawyer at every polling place. the should have been court ordered inspection of every freakin machine. kerry raise 300 million freakin dollars man, 300 million dollars. fuck man. we need to get us a new fucking leadership, this shit is ridiculous.

this shit should have been run like clock work. there should not have been pictures of naacp members on news stories about crack for votes. the real reason we lost is because our shit was not together. we had the votes, bad machines or not, and I know this because all you have to do is look at the faces of the repugs the weekend of the election. look at their faces the morning of the election, they know they do not have enough votes.

[amazona]

88. the media is trying to divide us

It would be insane for the Democratic Party to turn its back on civil rights for all, it is a cornerstone ideal.