Should gays leave the U.S.?

[siliconefreak]

The slippery slope

As hopes for equal rights for gay and lesbian Americans melt away and the antigay forces muster power, will we know when it’s time to leave just to save our own skins?

By Rod Abid
An Advocate.com exclusive, posted November 5, 2004

Back in the mid and late ’90s I was assigned to work in Bosnia and Kosovo, where I learned several things.

(1) The Bosnians and Kosovars who didn’t leave and were there for the war wished they’d paid attention to the many signs of their nation falling off the precipice. They didn’t imagine that the cultural differences in their nation would result in an all-out war.

(2) The people who didn’t leave couldn’t imagine that things could turn so bad so quickly.

(3) The people who didn’t leave knew that the Serbs could hate them, but didn’t imagine that the hatred would come to them in the form of their neighbors turning them over to homicidal paramilitary groups

These people saw signs of a clearly gathering threat. But they didn’t, or couldn’t, get out in time.

More...

http://advocate.com/html/stories/926/926_abid.asp

[eleonora]

1. eeek..this sent chills down my spine!

[Newsjock]

2. If I could, I would

If there were a job waiting for me in the Great White North (or, at the very least, a nice husband!), I would be up there in a second now. Alas, there isn't much demand for American newspaper designers and editors in Canada, what with there being enough of them up there already, unless I wanted to learn Inuktitut and move to Iqaluit, which would be interesting but not quite my cup o' tea, but I digress.

Us gayfolk are in a world of hurt these days, and I'm still stunned that 23% of us apparently voted for the Thief. I'm trying to figure out who they'd be -- the independently wealthy type, the type who spend half the year flitting around the world from one circuit party to the other, the type who work in places and industries where the fight for equality would appear to be over.

But that leaves the rest of us. And back on Wednesday, I was giving serious thought to just ditching everything and trying to make a go of illegal-alienhood in Canada. I've backed away a bit from that position, but I'm still at a loss to see how my life as a gay man in America is ever going to be any better than it already has been. And without that hope, there's not much else.

Unless, of course, you're that Canadian husband I'm looking for. Anyone? Bueller?

[Meldread]

3. I'll never leave.

If they come for me, I'll be ready to put a bullet in each and every one of them. If they want me, then they won't get me alive and I won't be the only one who goes down in the battle.

I'm thinking back to a speech made by Malcolm X called "The Ballot or the Bullet". It's one or the other, now.

[Ol Sugar Coat]

54. I, too will not go quietly

Let them pass their stupid laws. If they eliminated every gay alive in America today, there will be just as many once again in the next generation ... because homosexuality. like heterosexuality resides in ALL of us. If you're biological, you're bisexual.

[Florida_Geek]

4. Not the 20% that voted for Bush

He provides them with protection from the bad guys.

[LTRS]

6. Oh yes, the 20% who voted for him

They will not be spared the derision and persecution of the right. That's what makes that 20% the stupidest people of all.

[Hamlette]

5. oh for god's sake, grow a friggin spine!

your straight sisters and brothers have been fighting along side you even though some of us wished the issue had been timed better, like after the 2004 election.

If you leave now you will so piss me off.

[LTRS]

7. LOL! Well, if it will piss you off

... we'll obviously have to stick around to the bitter end. I do so much appreciate the verbal support so many of our straight brothers and sisters have shown us here on DU as we get scapegoating for the cause (once again).

But I wonder if any of you might consider supporting us in real life as well. Like NOT voting for amendments that make us second class citizens, and maybe even actually fighting along side with us as we work to secure some actual equality.

I'm not pointing at you, Hamlette, I don't even know you. But plenty of dems voted against us on Tues with those amendments, and as a gay activist I will tell you that actually get out there and fight support from straights as we try to secure our rights is pretty much non-existent.

[sangh0]

10. You ask if gays should leave the US

and then complain about how your "straight brothers and sisters" are abandoning YOU??

It takes two, brother.

[siliconefreak]

12. duh...

It's a rhetorical question, my friend. I didn't write the opinion piece.

[sangh0]

18. The opinion piece and the response call for gays to leave the country

and you did post it. Just because someone else wrote doesn't mean it's immune from criticism

[LTRS]

13. Oh geeze

Please help me find where I posted asking "should gays leave the US?"

This is a recurring pattern with you, isn't it? Just make shit up and pretend people said it. What a jerk you are!

[sangh0]

16. Did you read your subject line?

Did you not think it was inflammatory?

Do you think describing "equal rights for all" as a right that belongs ONLY to gays is something that go uncriticized?

[siliconefreak]

19. dude...

LTRS didn't start this thread. I did. And as I said, it was meant as a rhetorical question. There's nothing wrong with having this discussion. If it makes you so upset, you might want to just ignore it.

[sangh0]

23. dude, if you want to discuss this

then stop trying to personalize this by claiming I'm "upset". I haven't called anyone any names or attacked anyone's character or personality. My remarks have addressed the issue and the responses that have been posted. I would appreciate it if you would show the same respect for those who disagree with you as I have shown to you. That doesn't mean you have to praise my comments to the skies, but you could at least refrain from commenting on my personality and emotional state, something I havent done to you.

[LTRS]

31. Oh please, you attack in every thread that

has to go with GLBT rights. Who are you trying to kid? You're so damn fixated on attacking gay people here that you strike me as a typical closet homophobe.

[sangh0]

33. Actually, I was a bisexual but now I abstain

and once again, you are personalizing this and engaging in name-calling.

[LTRS]

37. That's what you done for the cause?

You've BEEN a bisexual in the past? Excuse me if I can't help but chuckle. Gee, thanks for all the help! That was a huge contribution to the quest for equal rights. LOL!

[TankLV]

51. It's a waste of time to even talk to some people.

This dude's ass has been in a sling for awhile here on DU.

Mostly pops up to criticize others, and then complains when we DARE to criticize him.

Best to leave some alone.

He's certainly NO FRIEND to the GBLT or other progressive causes.

If it were up to him, "lie-beral" Holy Joe would have been the acfceptable choice of the party last time.

[LTRS]

22. No, I don't think it's "inflammatory"

What's inflammatory about it? Believe me, plenty of gays and lesbians are considering it and have been for quite some time. Why shouldn't they? Anyone here doing anything except saying "we support you, but not really - not in deed."

What did you do while 11 states systematically voted to take away rights we didn't even have? What did any of you do?

Straight people in Canada stood up for the rights of gays and lesbians in their country. What have democrats done here? Nothing that I can see. Sure, we appreciate your verbal support, but how about getting off your tukus and helping us the way gays and lesbians have always helped the party? Is that too much to ask?

And this crap: "Do you think describing "equal rights for all" as a right that belongs ONLY to gays is something that go uncriticized?" - no one said anything of the kind. Just more of your fevered imagination!

[sangh0]

24. The blame does not fall on heterosexual Democrats

And this crap: "Do you think describing "equal rights for all" as a right that belongs ONLY to gays is something that go uncriticized?" - no one said anything of the kind. Just more of your fevered imagination

It was said that this was an issue that related to the rights of gay people. That's wrong.

It's related to ALL our rights

[LTRS]

26. Well if that's the case, it's kind of funny

that we are the only ones fighting for them, isn't it? Thanks for all your (non) help. We sure are beholden to you, massa!

[sangh0]

30. No, you are not alone

in the fight for equal rights for everyone.

We sure are beholden to you, massa!

So now it's democrats who want slavery. But no, you're not blaming democrats.

[LTRS]

34. I repeat, what have YOU specifically done

done to help secure equal rights for gays and lesbians? What did you specifically do to work against these 11 state amendments being passed? Did you do a single thing? By your non-response to this repeated question the answer is obvious to me - you have done nothing. Yet you DEMAND our loyalty to the dem party. Yeah, right.

[sangh0]

40. Here's a few

1) Given yearly contributions to gay rights organizations

2) Did volunteer work for GLBT orgs

3) Work for a charity, and way under market pay, for a charity that fights for equal rights for all in the courts

4) Delivered meals for AIDS shut-ins

5) Spent about a thousand dollars phone-banking in the states with those amendments.

6) Gotten my ass kicked on several occassions

[LTRS]

43. I kind of doubt that based on your posts

[sangh0]

49. It's not like

I expected you to acknowledge any errors on your part.

It's always someone else's fault, and you've always done more. But if we ever meet up IRL, I can show you the scars.

[TankLV]

52. Same here.

[Only Me]

15. I second Hamlette's response! n/t

[Behind the Aegis]

9. understandable

I can see you point to some extent...now, see if you can see ours. It will be OUR rights dissolved, our freedoms taken away, our jobs/homes/lives in jeopardy. Perhaps you are one of the few who would jump in the trenches with us, but when push comes to shove, most will leave us 'high and dry.'

Also, let's say we did wait for the "issue" after the election and The Fascist STILL stole the election? Would you want us to wait another 4 years? When will the timing be right for us to claim OUR civil rights?

Thank you for your service.

[sangh0]

14. No, it will NOT be YOUR rights that are dissolved

It will be OUR rights too. YOU are a part of US, and it's the constant focus on our differences that are tearing us apart. What's killing us is how various parts of the dem coalition are blaming EACH OTHER instead of the criminals who are actually committing these crimes.

Would you want us to wait another 4 years?

Where have you been? We've been fighting since BEFORE 2000. None of us are going to wait around for four years.

WE are NOT the enemy. You are not the enemy, and I am not the enemy. You and I are we, and they are OUR rights, not yours.

[Behind the Aegis]

21. Where have YOU been?

Have you not read ANY of the HUNDREDS of posts that say it was the "gay thing" that hurt us at the polls? People saying.."couldn't you wait?" Hell, look at the damn post I replied to!

It is great YOU think we are a part of the US. There are quite a few that would disagree! We, gay people, are treated as SECOND-CLASS citizens. Are we still citizens? In the academic sense of the word, we are.

I am not blaming other Democrats (except those who are bigots). I blame the right-wing and its fear factor! I blame the misAdministration and their cheating with our democracy! I blame the media who refuses to report and acts like a tabloid!

So unless you are gay, having the sodomy laws reestablished will not affect you! You will NEVER be fired for being straight! You will never lose your home because you are STRAIGHT! So I am worried about MY EQUAL RIGHTS! Until gays have EQUAL rights, you and I do NOT have the same rights!

[sangh0]

28. I don't pay much attention to Freepers

Have you not read ANY of the HUNDREDS of posts that say it was the "gay thing" that hurt us at the polls? People saying.."couldn't you wait?" Hell, look at the damn post I replied to!

Have you noticed it's almost entirely from new posters? Are you familiar with the posting history of those who aren't new but are blaming gays?

So unless you are gay, having the sodomy laws reestablished will not affect you!

Wrong. My gay family members will be just as affected as you are, and what affects my family, affects me.

You will NEVER be fired for being straight!

As a 45 year old heterosexual male whose never been married, abstains from sex, is loudly sympathetic to gays and theor struggles, has many gay friends, and is small, thin, and effeminate, I am at risk for losing my job for being gay.

So I am worried about MY EQUAL RIGHTS! Until gays have EQUAL rights, you and I do NOT have the same rights!

As long as your rights can be denied because you are supposedly "immoral", so too are my rights being denied

[LTRS]

25. You have been fighting for us since 2000

Really? What have you done to fight for us. Please be specific. Because frankly, as a gay activist it seems the "fighting for" has been a one way street. Gays and lesbians support democrats, but democrats haven't done jack to support us.

How many of you stood up for, worked, volunteered, or donated money to the fight against these 11 state amendments? A few, I'm sure. But not very many. Who has abandoned who here?

"Our" rights, my ass. Last I checked you had all the rights we don't and they number 1067. That's right, you have 1067 federal rights we do not have.

[Behind the Aegis]

35. Hell YES SISTER!

You said it!!!! There are a few straights out there who are REALLY allies and we love them for it. But the rest can shut the fuck up! They blame us for "losing the election," they blame us "for getting mad," they blame us pushing too hard for equality! Well, this gay man has had it! March ON!

on edit: double checked and saw you were a "sister" and not a "brother"...sorry! :)

[sangh0]

36. Well, I've gotten my ass kicked several times for having gay friends

is that enough fighting for you? Should I bring along my friend who had his jaw wired? He can testify on my behalf.

[LTRS]

42. Oh brother!

Now you've reached the point of being ridiculous. And I'm not so sure you got your ass kicked "for having gay friends." I have a sneaking suspicion there may have been other more pressing motivations.

Have a nice day.

[sangh0]

50. A gay freind of mine was being beaten

by two men he had just serviced. I came to his defense.

What was your "sneaking suspicion"?

[Ol Sugar Coat]

55. You're too much. There isn't a gay person on this thread who's buying

what you're selling, mister. So you got beat up because a gay friend of yours was "servicing" a couple of dudes? Bwa HA ha ha ha ha! What a tremendous hole you're digging. Keep going! I needed a good chuckle today!

[Hamlette]

38. I see your point

I'm a thrid generation godless commie pinko born and raised in Utah. I'd be an idiot to think they were not coming after me next.

And...in response to another post, I DO stand up for you in non election years. I was very active in the effort to stop the amendment here, gave both time and lots of money. I've also attended every protest (not many have been held) here. (It was an issue a few years back locally over gay clubs in high schools. You might remember. I went to EVERY protest in favor of gay rights.)

Not to give you crap or anything but as a woman I look back at our history and recognize what a friggin hard battle it has been just so we can get to a place where we can earn 70 cents for every dollar a man earns.

and, as a student of history I know that slavery was a hotly contested issue before 1776 and blacks are STILL treated as second class citizens, if that.

We make progress one baby step at a time. If we leave and abandon the fight we make no progress.

[Behind the Aegis]

45. points are seen

My dear, if you are an atheist, they are ALREADY gunning for you! It is amazing that a preacher can behead his wife (in Tulsa, OK) but he has morals because he is a Xtian! While a godless atheist, is moral-less, even though s/he gives to charity, is kind, and helpful. The religious zealots in this country have to be tamed! They need to learn..."your rights end, where my nose begins!"

Thank you for your support. It is appreciated and welcomed!

[TankLV]

53. Yeah, right - go to the back of the buss.

Seems we've heard this crap before.

No buyin' what you're sellin'

Thanks for the "enlightenend" "support".

NOT!

[BlackVelvetElvis]

8. They would love it if we left.

Therefore, I'm not going anywhere.

[siliconefreak]

11. "the issue"?

It's not just about same-sex marriage.

Here's a good question: Why the hell is the U.S. still the ONLY democracy in the world whose military doesn't allow EVERYONE to serve, no matter who they are? Hetero American males are such wimps that they can't even bare the thought of another guy looking at them?

At this point, we're probably lucky to have the idiotic "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy. I won't be surprised if even THAT policy will be seen as too liberal sometime within the next 4 years.

And I hear a lot of people say, "At least gays don't have to worry about being drafted." Well guess what - there's actually a provision in the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy that says gays WILL serve when there's a draft, but as soon as the draft is over, the policy gets fully reinstated. Nice, huh?

[LTRS]

17. You know what's funny? They suspended it

for the duration of the war. No Don't Ask, Don't Tell rules now, because they are afraid people will "tell" to get out of the military. In other words, gays and lesbians are okay in the military, so far as republican's are concerned when they need us to die for their wars.

[siliconefreak]

20. I didn't hear that.

Funny that it didn't make the news. <sarcasm>

[LTRS]

27. It was in the Advocate though! LOL!

[Meldread]

32. Damn it.

I was hoping to use that to get out of any drafting. I figured I could use the damn policy to my advantage. Figures that the Right Wing would drop it. I just feel sorry for anyone who comes "out" while in a combat zone -- expect to be on the front lines with no body armor.

[Behind the Aegis]

41. Yes they did!

Isn't amazing that during a time of peace they are more worried about "unit cohesion" than during a time of war?! It is their legal way of using 2nd class citizens any way they want! They scorn and ridicule us, then say...why are you so unpatriotic and don't want to serve?! Who's a flip-flopper?!

[NightTrain]

29. FUCK NO!

And here's why:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2619645

[PittLib]

39. If y'all leave now...

who'll design the spring line? ;)

[siliconefreak]

44. lol...

Canada will become the headquarters for all fashion and design companies. ;)

[PittLib]

46. parkas and muckalucks?! eeek!

I don't want anyone leaving ... I have so few causes of my own, I need to fight for everyone's right to equality - not just my own.

edited to add:
no offense to our fine Canadian friends

[siliconefreak]

47. Yep...

And all hair salons will go out of business. Your only choices for a haircut will be Supercuts and Fantastic Sam's. :+

[PittLib]

48. That's it ...

I'm moving to Ibiza. They're pretty gay, right?

[69KV]

56. No. Conservative Repukes should leave the U.S.

(n/t)