Fascinating explanation why Christian conservatives are the way they are

[starroute]

This comes from a long LiveJournal entry by somebody who was raised as a Southern conservative, outgrew it, but really undedrstands what makes them tick. Highly recommended.


http://www.livejournal.com/users/wayfairer/456769.html

"Paul has this way of delineating Christianity as a practice so that you can live it out very easily. He basically teaches Christians that they are to live every day as though they are battling persecution. Paul is the classic propagator of the Us/Them mentality. Them is the World. The World is evil and sinful and wants to persecute Us. It is Our job as Conservative Christians to don our armor and wage war against the World.

"When you grow up being raised in this environment, whether you give it any credence or not, what starts to happen is that you see things very easily in terms of whether they fit into the 'Us' category or the 'World' category. Since, um, most things fall into the World category, it gets very easy to compartmentalize in your head, and to, for example, start thinking, "the media is a tool of Satan, I shouldn't believe what people are telling me." And even if you don't think 'TOOL OF SATAN!!!!' every time you hear the media, if you've heard other people around you and in your church say it enough, even subconsciously you start doubting the media. How this plays out is that you begin to filter your environment as a conservative christian based on what you can easily categorize. Once you have identified, say, George Bush, as one of Us, it's much easier to disregard negative news about him because the Media is one of Them, and the two things can be easily canceled out in your mind.

"In the South, the tendency to categorize things, combined with the fact that we are taught to expect persecution as a Christian people, has led us to segregate, commit acts of racism and intolerance, and to be very, very suspicious of anyone from the North or the West, because all of you are part of the World.

"Conservative beliefs do not spread because of ignorance. You must understand this. Conservative beliefs spread because of a need in the conservative church to emphasize that if you are not fighting, you are losing the battle for spiritual warfare. And until you have been out there battling the forces of evil you don't really understand how every day events can be magnified to fit into a larger picture of a tapestry of events being orchestrated by Jesus to lead us on to a higher victory."

[bluedonkey]

1. And I thought

they were all dropped on the head as babies.

[Liberal Veteran]

2. No one is "born" Christian....it's a "lifestyle choice".....

....like any other.

[Nimrod]

4. Whatever you do...

Don't ask one why they decided to belong to the world's most financially successful blood cult. They don't appreciate that.

:)

[Liberal Veteran]

6. Yeah...that ritual cannibalism and vampirism are kinda odds too.

Symbolically drinking blood and eating human flesh....

[Nimrod]

12. Not going to be much of a second coming

The transubstantiationists have already eaten most of him.

:)

[regnaD kciN]

50. Could we please cut the generic Christian-bashing, please?

I hate to break it to you, but the vast majority of Christians, even in this country, are neither fundies nor religious-right "moral values" voters.

As I have pointed out, it is because I am a Christian and try to follow the teachings of Christ that my politics are as they are. Were I not a Christian, I would likely be a conservative Republican (albeit of the libertarian bent).

[Hog lover]

54. Sorry, you don't have to be a "Christian" or even religious to have values

I am very anti-organized-religion because of all the evil that is done in the guise of upholding some religious belief, and because religion teaches people that it is wrong to think for themselves.

I do have very strong moral and ethical values.

[WCGreen]

57. When Jesus was preparing to step into

History way back when, over 250,000 lambs were slaughtered just to get enough blood for the Passover Traditional sacrifice..

So maye, just maybe Jesus was thinking, Maybe if I get them to drink the wine instead of slaughtering the Lamb, maybe there wouldn't be so much blood and have you ever smelled 250,000 lamb carcasses.. And how they rot.. Oiiiyyy

So maybe this idea of drnking wine as a representitive sacrifice was a big huge step forward in the evolution of Western thought not to mention real good for the local wine industry.....

[Nimrod]

3. Impressive

::tries to stop shuddering in the corner::

I think this is an amazing assessment.

[sangh0]

5. It is true

That's why it makes no sense to argue with them. There is no hope in converting them because as far as they're concerned, anything you say is just Devil's talk.

[PatsFan2004]

19. So true because their only authority is the Bible.

[doni_georgia]

23. Then use the Bible - the Scripture is "sharper than any two-edged sword."

There is ample, ample evidence in the New Testament that this president is not acting in accordance with Scripture.

Just reading through the Gospels tonight was inspiring for me. I admit I've wondered whether I was seeing things correctly or if I was in a fog somehow. I'm much surer now. Read the first few verses of Zephaniah 3 - just as one example - and the parallels to the current American power strructure are amazing. Also, Matthew 23 contains the harshest invective Jesus ever spoke, and it's directed right at the religious leaders of His time. "Blind guides! You strain your water so that you won't swallow a gnat, and then you swallow a camel!" -Matt 23:24, one of many pearls in this chapter. Even if you aren't a Christian, read it. It will hearten you to know what Jesus had to say about those people of his time who most resemble the most vocal Religious Right leaders of our time. And it will help you believe more in what you're doing here, Christian or non-Christian, to have the opinion of the One who's at the center of all this maelstrom.

Mac in Ga

[msongs]

26. doesn't leviticus ban lobsters and shrimp and also

poly-cotton clothes (mixing 2 fibers in one garment) LOL

msongs
liberal t shirts
www.msongs.com/political-shirts.htm

[doni_georgia]

30. Right you are

Homosexuality is decried as an abomination, right up there with polyester.

Mac in Ga

[shimmergal]

55. I asked a (religiously) conservative Jewish friend about this.

Don't know how the fundies interpret it, but my friend says that for observant Jews, it only applies to linen-and-wool blends in the same garment. Cotton-polyester is OK.

After hearing this, I suspect it was originally a trade-protection measure, since many of the early Jews made their living raising sheep. I think linen was produced in only Egypt then.

[Shallah Kali]

56. yep - God Hates Shrimp!

http://www.godhatesshrimp.com/

:P

[yardwork]

35. Their authority are the male figures who interpret the Bible for them

They don't think on their own. Not only do the adults and kids go to bible school on most Sundays, they also attend study meetings on Wednesday nights, and sometimes more frequently throughout the week.

I've been to some of these bible study groups. They read Paul's letters, Revelation, and selections from the OT. There is a heavy focus on how women are to defer to male figures in their lives, and how men in turn defer to God. The word goes from God to the male ministers to the male elders of the church to the alpha females to the young females to the children. And you better do what they say or you will go to HELL!

[riverwalker]

7. what a hideous way to live

seeing "satan" and evil everywhere except in their own putrid minds.
Who would have thought, 15 years ago, that SNL's "church lady" would be running the country? Except they wear suits and ties.

[sangh0]

11. And people wonder why they are so fearful

.

[oldlady]

8. but, I kinda agree with them

the media IS the tool of Satan
*heheehee*

[jdots]

9. and they do no evil yeah !

people can rationalize just about anything.Why don't they clean up thier own act,but they rationalize that too.

[pantouflard]

10. So very true - I grew up this way

These people have a way to invalidate *anything* that makes them uncomfortable. And logic has nothing to do with it, so an argument, as we rational folks think of it, is useless. Arguments, even lively discussions, are based on logical reasoning and critical thinking.

They indeed are not ignorant, nor stupid. They make a *choice* to avoid critical thinking. They are the epitome of "mind over matter."

[yardwork]

36. Welcome to DU, madbee

Please keep posting about this. We need to understand what we're up against, and those of us who were actually raised in these cults have information that we need.

[Maraya1969]

44. There are 12 Step Groups for Recovering fundamentalists

I got messed up with these groups in my teens. I was filled with guilt and fear, (they scare the shit out of you). You are afraid to question the beliefs because you are afraid you will go to Hell. I remember one women telling me that if you do not remember the exact time and place that you were "saved" then you weren't really saved. So I started on this obsession with being saved over and over again because I never thought I did it right. Several times a day I was on my knees praying that prayer. Now I know I was suffering from obsessive compulsive disorder. Not a fun thing to have around fundamentalists.

So when I got into Alcoholics Anonymous at age 20 I was able to disengage from that horror. (Of course my drinking problem was another thing that made me feel like a cursed Christian).

The whole thing is madness. And the cult somehow attracts people who are suffering from a mental illness. Actually I think they are all suffering from some sort of mental illness or they are just power hungry and feed off of people's fears.

[A HERETIC I AM]

13. One of the fun things to ask people of that ilk is.....

"How many people in the bible did Satan kill?"


Answer?

ZERO

Then ask them how many people in the bible GOD killed.

answer?

untold millions

(Either by direct action or direction of individuals as exampled by the Noachian flood , the pogroms throughout Leviticus and the rest of the old testament, the various blessings of Christ on killing, etc.)


Most Bible literalists HATE to hear that their god is recorded in scripture as actually being a baby killing, woman killing, innocent slaughtering bloodthirsty war god that in reality, has NO position of moral authority when viewed from a dispassionate, reasoned, rational perspective.

[DELUSIONAL]

20. Satan was/is an invented boogie man invested by the

Judea Old Testament tradition and embraced by the Christians.

I find it interesting that many cultural traditions don't have the concept of Satan. Some Native American cultures have tricksters -- in some cases the coyote.

[Nimrod]

27. Lazarus Long

"Man has yet to create a God superior to himself. Most Gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child."

LOVE the handle, by the way. :)

[soleft]

14. Also recommend Battle for God by Karen Armstrong

She explores history of fundamentalism in all three monotheistic faiths, shows how modernism freaks people out, and if you try to impose it on people, it just freaks them out even more

[riverwalker]

15. another thought

the fundies basically adhere to Paul's teachings, not Jesus'. They should call themselves Paulians or something. Remember after 9/11 conservatives demanded that moderate Muslim clerics condemn the teachings of the fundamentalist Muslims? Maybe it's time for moderate Christians to do the same to rapture helmeted loonies and their twisted idolatrous worship of the monkey-king.

[A HERETIC I AM]

17. EXCELLENT POINT!!!!!!!!

Most fundy xtians today are really "Paulians" or "Peterians".

Paul is an OBVIOUS misogynist and peter....well....lets just say that the gospels according to those two is little more than hearsay and interpretation of dogma wrapped in opinion and has little to do with the core message that is of The Christ (a rather Buddhist one at that)

[regnaD kciN]

45. Actually, they're "Bibliolaters"...

...they worship the Bible, not God. Believing that every word in the Bible is literally true means that they've become blind to the story of God's developing relationship with humans, and that they can't understand that some of what appears in the Bible is merely humans trying as best they could, given their times and circumstances, to understand God, and that later events and thought (or, as it might be put, "progressive revelation") clarify matters so that those older understandings are obsolete. In short, by staring so long at the Bible as a whole, they miss Jesus (as well as the Jewish prophets) almost entirely.

It would be as if, say, one were to try to describe modern politics by taking as literally true everything written on the subject in the last 1,200 years. You'd have the opinion of the Federalist Papers mingled in with Thomas Aquinas's medieval Treatise on Law mixed with first-millenium writings on the Divine Right of Kings. Take all of them together, declare that all of them are word-for-word true descriptions of what a state should be like, and you'll get the same weirdness evidenced by so many fundamentalists.

[cavanaghjam]

51. The problem comes

when one reads the Bible as one reads a cookbook. The Bible was written (or more accurately, the stories were passed down orally) in the manner of the times, i.e. fraught with metaphor, allegory, and symbolism. Were one to read it otherwise, it quickly is evident that it is filled with inviable contradictions and logic fallacies. How did God create heaven and earth in seven days? Till the earth was created there were no days. Who did the children and Adam and Eve marry? People from the land of Nod? Where the hell did they come from? And so on.
The greatest failing of faith is that it so often ignores that in its essence doubt must exist for there to be faith. Without doubt one knows, there is no need for faith. Yet these zealous faithful act as if there is no doubt - "Jesus is the only way!"
But ultimately, one must admit that the philosophies of the Galilean (though fine for the individual seeking guidance for a right path) are poor tools by which to govern. What nation would endure by continuously turning the other cheek?

[Philostopher]

43. Hey, I said this in a thread earlier --

They should stop maintaining the fiction they follow Jesus Christ and start calling themselves 'Paulists' -- the thread I posted it in had to do with homophobia. Paul actually believed that marriage, especially if it was to consecrate the desire to have sex, was a moral failing -- if we were truly moral, we wouldn't be driven by our 'carnal urges.' Anybody who wonders what evangelicals and fundies are all about should take this into consideration when they hear something inexplicable coming out of the Talibornagains' mouths. Marrying to consecrate the sex you desire is a moral failing.

Paul said a lot of other screwy stuff, too, but I get flashbacks when I really think about this stuff, mostly to a Dobson film they made us sit through as teenagers that tried to convince us masturbation was an abomination on the soul and ... well, a moral failing. Applying that Paulist wisdom about carnal urges, of course.

We wouldn't go blind or grow hair on our palms. We'd just rot in hell.

[DoYouEverWonder]

46. There were three major groups of christians

in the early days of christianity. First you had the Jewish chrisitians and from them came the gnostic christians. Then Paul of Tarsus came along and hijacked Christianity and blended Jesus with his god Mithras and it's been downhill ever since. The followers of Paul are called Pauline Christians. I think it important to start to make the distinction between Pauline Christians and other christians who do try to following the teachings of Jesus.

Has a gnostic, I do believe that if Saul hadn't become Paul the world would have been a much better place.

[KayLaw]

16. Please, dear God

As a woman who has some spiritual beliefs, can I please divorce myself from these people and reveal the true Christian beneath the lies?

[Sara Beverley]

18. Sorry, that is what the conservative Christians SAY Paul said.

Too much to go into here but take the time to read Paul's letters for yourself. One thing about the Bible, it really explains itself very well. Man has corrupted scripture to build God in his own image and to browbeat others into submission, fear, warmongering, and everything that is against true Christianity. I'm not trying to convert anyone but it's worth a good thoughful read. Be sure to distinguish where Paul says he is speaking for himself and not for Christ. He does this in many places. Paul was himself somewhat like the RW but his message is tempered with the vision of Christ. His battle between the message of Christ and his own prejudices was constant but the spirit of Christ was controlling in his teachings.

[doni_georgia]

31. Good point Sara

To reject Paul for his shortcomings, when the man was obviously human, is to throw out the baby with the bathwater. You have to understand the man himself and his place in space and time to understand why he says many of the things he says.

In our day and age, it is much harder to comprehend him. The Rome of Paul's day was about the size of Toledo, Ohio, if I am remembering correctly. The journey from Rome to Jerusalem was quite perilous and took weeks or months to complete. The churches in most places were nothing like some of the enormous worship houses we see in our world. Finally, in many places Christians risked death (!) if exposed, which makes the modern Christian Right's claims of religious persecution seem delusional at best and cynically manipulative at worst.

Mac in Ga

[sandnsea]

39. And about Jewish Law

When I started paying attention to Orthodox Judaism, Catholicism and who Paul was talking to and why; then it all made alot more sense to me too. I'm too tired to go into much, just wanted to throw that out there.

[Only Me]

21. ...Some Southern Baptists are NOT that Judgemental..I live in

the south. Here in my area, they are not quite as radical, or atleast they weren't until recently.

The Freewill,Old Regulars and Southern Baptists in my area...didn't seem to believe that we came to this country just for Christianity, they didn't believe in fighting for Christ. They believed in fighting for souls for Christ. Most around here would never keep people out of their churches...

Bush and his administration is taking them to another place.
They are changing, they are becoming paranoid, judgemental and determined. As if they feel they are being attacked or atleast waiting to be attacked. They put up little signs that call certain people sinners and to repent. Before Bush, most church people would tell you we are all sinners pastors, decons and the congregation..because we are of the flesh. They real thing was to keep up your personal fight to do as Christ would have done. It was not a fight against anyone...but a fight for personal salvation.

Like the journal writer, many Southern Baptist see other Christians as less than Christians. But around here, and out in the mid west, were I used to live, that didn't seem to be the case. They don't seem to realize they are all VERY DIFFERENT from the DEEP Southern Baptists. But I think the Deep Southern Baptists KNOW they are different from the rest. Only this administration has clouded these differences and are linking them using one cause, Christian morality, and the war to obtain it all things.

In truth he is only ripping our churches and our country apart. Pit religion against religion and people against people....I seriously wonder when people proclaim Bush is of God. I didn't fall of the turnip truck yesterday, I have seen quite a few, truly christian men, and to me he doesn't look to familiar.

[doni_georgia]

25. Wouldn't it be a riot if

...Bush really did turn out to be the AntiChrist? Here are all these ultraconservative Christians looking hither and yon, pointing at everything they think is evil or Satanic... and they missed it completely?

Actually that's not funny. I really, really hope he's not. The Apocalypse is by any standard horrifying in the extreme.

I've actually given this some serious thought, though. It would explain a lot of the corrollary phenomena - the falling away of believers, the great deception, the Middle East turmoil, the natural phenomena - that we're watching. Four hurricanes in Florida? All in heavily Republican areas?

If Bush betrays Israel in the next six months, look out indeed.

Mac in Ga

[Only Me]

28. I have thought on this same thing many times... if he isn't which

is very possible, what he is doing now mixing religion with government is setting the stage for someone else more evil that him to come in an divide and decieve the world. Scary stuff indeed.

[sandnsea]

40. personal salvation

I saw an article on that somewhere, that's the difference between cults/terrorist groups and proper religion; whether it's presented as a path for personal salvation or a method of governing the people. In Christianity, Jesus died for personal salvation and had absolutely nothing to do with governments. Any time people stray from that basic principle, you can be sure you're going to have problems, no matter what religion.

[Only Me]

58. I agree. n/t

[Only Me]

22. Dupe- my enter key is sticking. Sorry!

[highplainsdem]

24. Read the Frank Peretti novel THIS PRESENT DARKNESS to understand

just how some fundies see themselves as "spiritual warriors." A fundie relative of mine recommended his books, and I read just that one, his first. It's better written than the Left Behind series (anything's better written than that), but it's a frightening read -- not because it's a fundie version of a horror novel, but because of the warped mindset it reveals. People actually being followed around by invisible demons with subtle names like Lust. Angels talking like cartoonishly macho Special Forces. Even the most powerful angels needing "prayer support" from the "saints" aka the fundies. (You didn't know they all think of themselves as saints?) And everywhere around them, even more dangerous than the demons, those evil liberals, who aren't godly enough even when they think they're Christian, and who can really lead the unwary straight to Hell through such dangerous practices as -- oh, the horror of it -- meditation and guided visualization.

If you want some idea how seriously the fundies take this garbage, check out the book review at http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/exposes/peretti/dark.htm , where the reviewer, though quibbling with some details of Peretti's mad universe, agrees with him on much of it, and also writes:

I don't say this to burst the balloons of all those who enjoyed reading This Present Darkness. Nor is it necessarily a criticism of Peretti's authorship. It's just that because of the success of his book, Peretti is sought after for speaking engagements on spiritual warfare in churches all across America, especially those predisposed toward dominionism. It is therefore important that we make a distinction between spiritual warfare based on reality from one based on fantasy.

Notice the reference to dominionism, which has been mentioned in other threads here.

You really ought to check that book out (preferably out of a library; you don't want to support these beliefs). You will not believe how crazy that worldview is.

[doni_georgia]

29. Oh yes I would

Check out the International House of Prayer in Kansas City. By the time you've exhausted all the trails from that site, you'll be flabbergasted (and may need oxygen). The major OT prophets took years or even centuries for their prophecies to be fulfilled. But the IHOP is often acting on individual prophecies made in the last twenty years or so at most. If that doesn't scare you, it should.

I was in a church for a couple of years that is closely aligned with this group. Very nice, kindly, even gentle people taken individually; frightening indeed as a group. Judgment Day sounds great if you believe you will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. However, if you still have mercy and compassion for the lost, LIKE YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO, judgment is a horror that you should be begging on your knees to postpone for the sake of mercy. The desire for judgment is a human suspension of mercy, not a divine one. Only God knows when it will starts - even Jesus said explicitly that he did not know the day or the hour. To ask for it, therefore, is to presume in a way that asks for eternal damnation for the lost. This mocks Christ's sacrifice and is, in its primacy of individual desire over the will of God, Satanic and heretical. It's the desire to stop working a thankless job and letting God do everything for you while you stand by and live in complete comfort and bliss. Tell that to Jesus on the cross. Maybe He'll listen. But I would hide my face from what I would expect His expression to be. No wonder that when He returns, He will return in anger.

As a result, I have a pretty thorough understanding of where the dominionists are headed. When you read what is actually in the Bible on the Christians in the last days, however, there is a paradox with the dominionist theory that has led me to reject it utterly.

The good that came out of it is that I have this understanding and can use it here to help people comprehend the disconnect between Biblical teaching and the dominionist theories, and maybe point you toward some avenues that people might miss otherwise. Trust me on this: IHOP is a big one.

Mac in Ga

[A HERETIC I AM]

47. The above is one of the most extraordinarily well written posts i have ..

ever read on DU.

"Judgment Day sounds great if you believe you will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. However, if you still have mercy and compassion for the lost, LIKE YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO, judgment is a horror that you should be begging on your knees to postpone for the sake of mercy. The desire for judgment is a human suspension of mercy, not a divine one. Only God knows when it will starts - even Jesus said explicitly that he did not know the day or the hour. To ask for it, therefore, is to presume in a way that asks for eternal damnation for the lost. This mocks Christ's sacrifice and is, in its primacy of individual desire over the will of God, Satanic and heretical."


This is so incredibly insightful and accurate it bears cutting and pasting!


Judgment day not only SOUNDS great, but that day and it's subsequent residence is best served with box seats, for there is no joy to be attained for those who consider themselves to be on the favorable side of the Divine if they are not allowed to ably view the eternal torment of those they perceived as so deserving of such suffering when they were mortals.

This is truly one of the rewards of monotheism.

Revenge in the guise of piety. Vanity cloaked in spite.

It is the worst of human ego,
and it is what religion preys upon and thrives with.

It has succeeded thusly for centuries.

It disgusts me.

[regnaD kciN]

49. When it comes to Christian fantasy...

...I prefer Madeleine L'Engle (A Wrinkle in Time).

[yardwork]

32. He's right and it's not just the South

I grew up in rural Ohio and this is how way too many people think.

Most fundamentalist churches focus a lot more on SATAN and HELL and SIN than on Jesus and Heaven and Forgiveness and Love.

Every day is fraught with dangers to these poor souls. Any misstep, any "wrong" thought, any "wrong" word, certainly the wrong choice at the polls (!) can land you in HELL for eternity.

Let me tell you a story. When I was a kid I had a good friend who was a Nazarene. Years later she told me that she never knew where babies came from until she got married, in her early twenties, to another Nazarene.

She told me that she didn't know the meaning of the word "sex" and SHE WAS AFRAID TO LOOK IT UP IN AN ENCYCLOPEDIA OR DICTIONARY BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE A SIN THAT WOULD SEND HER TO HELL.

[doni_georgia]

33. On second thought

don't bother with an Ohio recount. :)

Mac in Ga

[yardwork]

34. LOL! There are a lot of them, but there are more sane people

We the sane are in the majority.

[OneBlueSky]

37. illuminating and compelling read . . . thank you . . . however . . .

"If I were still a conservative Christian I can tell you exactly how this election would look to me right now. Kerry is an immoral man of the World, and I thank God that Bush, a man of clear moral integrity who is out to defeat Satan regardless of the forces that stand in his way, has been blessed with victory. He didn't win the election--God chose him as the leader of this nation.

"That is how I would view this election. And that is not a stance that would make me ignorant, stupid, bigoted, or homophobic.

um . . . yes it is . . . no matter how you couch it, or how you rationalize it, such a stance is indeed ignorant, stupid, bigoted AND homophobic . . . believing this stuff as a child or even an adolescent is one thing . . . believing it as a rational adult is something else altogether . . . when your adult political positions are one and the same as your religious dogma, you fail to appreciate that one of the things that makes this nation work is the separation of church and state . . . you belong in a theocracy, not a democracy . . .

considering Kerry "an immoral man of the World" and Bush "a man of clear moral integrity who is out to defeat Satan" are infantile positions that fly in the face of reality . . . removing yourself from the "reality-based world" in favor of conservative Christian dogma is a sure recipe for more wars, more injustice, and more enviromental degradation . . . in perpetuity . . . it's ignorant, stupid, bigoted, and homphobic on its face . . .

[Blaq Dem]

38. NOT ENOUGH SEX!!

If they were getting some, then they wouldn't be worried about what everyone else was doing. LOL

[burythehatchet]

41. Can anyone point out the difference between this

philosophy and that of the Taliban.

[LibertyorDeath]

42. Complete fucking whack jobs IMO

[leesa]

48. Read it. They sound pretty damned ignorant to me.

This is not rational thought. Too much poverty and hopelessness? Too much refined sugar? Something is making their brains malfunction.

[JI7]

59. i feel the same way

[Hamlette]

52. read Karen Armstrong, she's been explaining this for years

and she if very worried.

When you are a fundamentalist, whatever the religion, you can fly airplanes into buildings.

[cavanaghjam]

53. Several things

have swum up to surface in my consciousness, ideas come to me before which have found no avenue for expression until now (may the undifferentiated power bless DU).

Jesus was an anti establishment rebel. The Pharisees looked a lot like the power elite of today.

The only time he got angry was against the usurers defiling the house of worship.

The quote of His most often not cited - "It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the gates of heaven."

He saw the need to separate religion and the State, remember - "Render unto Caesar..."?

Stated most simply, Christ was a great leap forward, the transformation of "eye for an eye", and its endless cycles of revenge, into "love thine enemy".

In all the blather about Gibson's movie and the "Jews killed Jesus" nonsense, several things were left unsaid. Among them - were Christ not crucified, there would be no Christian religion; and it was the tyranny of public opinion that condemned him to death, so beware democracy unbridled by the rule of law (in our case, the constitution).

Finally, all zealots need to realize Abraham was not a Jew, Jesus was not a Christian, and Mohamed was not a Muslim. That said, all these religions have more commonalities than difference.

[baldguy]

60. So, they're insular, inbred, ignorant & hostile to the outside world.

Just the type of people you want in control of nuclear weapons.

Sort of reminds you of another country, eh?



He's even got the same Evangelist handsigns.

[Sugarbleus]

61. Exactly right! I'm particularly interested in the St. Paul phenom.

"Paulians" I think I've heard some Christians described as. He was certainly the most "militant". good post.