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If Bush gets his National Sales Tax "reform," you're looking at 56%.

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Bush_Eats_Beef Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-06-04 08:46 PM
Original message
If Bush gets his National Sales Tax "reform," you're looking at 56%.
http://blogcritics.org/archives/2004/10/25/164856.php

There are different national sales tax proposals floating around, but I will try to give an overall summary. The national sales tax plan would set a flat sales good purchased. There are different ideas of what this would like - do services get taxed? What about homes? Healthcare? Used goods? But generally, we would expect to pay a percentage on everything that we purchased. Fairtax.org states that a 23% rate on all goods would be necessary to meet the nation's current budget. Along with this tax rate, most proposals include a rebate. In the Fairtax.org plan, the rebate would be a flat amount based on the poverty level, which would mean a family of four would receive a $361 monthly rebate, regardless of your income.

The system would supposedly eliminate tax loopholes, plus it would also enable to the government to collect taxes from undocumented workers and other black market industries. Because you do not need to see income, the black market incomes still need to pay taxes on the good that they purchase, though one theory on this says the opposite. That a large sales tax increase would drive more industries into the black market and create more under-the-table deals. The first problem with this system is the 23% tax-inclusive rate. This rate is actually somewhat misleading:

It turns out that the group's purported 23 percent tax rate is misleading and hypothetical. It came up with that number by dividing the sales tax by the cost of a purchase plus the tax. So if the tax on a $100 purchase is $30, the group prefers to call it a 23 percent "tax inclusive rate" ($30 divided by $130). Ever hear of computing a sales tax like that?

The rate is really a 30% tax-exclusive rate, which is a much more accurate way to look at it. The next problem with this rate is that many feel that it is way too low. First, this rate would include the government paying a 30% rate on everything that they buy. That would mean that the government would be paying taxes to itself, which in turn would really boost the necessary rate to over 40%. But even this is too low by many estimates. Some say that the rate would be as much as 56%.

http://www.ncpa.org/pi/taxes/jan98g.html


Americans for Fair Taxation has kicked off a campaign for a national sales tax to replace federal income taxes and other taxes. But how high would the sales tax rate have to be? Higher than sales tax supporters claim, says Robert S. McIntyre of Citizens for Tax Justice.

The AFT says it would take a 23 percent sales tax rate to raise the same amount of federal revenue. However, McIntyre contends:

At 1995 levels, a new sales tax would have to raise $1.36 trillion to replace all federal income taxes, payroll taxes and estate and gift taxes.

Under its plan, taxable spending would be $4.6 trillion -- after accounting for a partial family rebate of the tax.

Thus the sales tax rate would have to be $4.6 trillion divided by $1.36 trillion -- which yields a tax rate of 30 percent, not 23 percent.
AFT came up with the 23 percent rate by dividing the sales tax by the cost of a purchase plus the tax -- which yields a "tax inclusive rate." This is not the usual way of calculating sales taxes, says McIntyre.

Furthermore, almost one-third of the projected revenue is supposed to come from taxes paid by government on its purchases -- taxes it would pay to itself. Without those "phantom" tax payments, claims McIntyre, the rate would have to jump to 42 percent to break even.

Finally, a quarter of the remaining sales tax revenues come from hard-to-tax items, such as free checking accounts -- and setting aside taxes on those items, claims McIntyre, the rate would have to be 56 percent.
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lakeguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-06-04 08:47 PM
Response to Original message
1. only 56%, what's everyone complainin about?
:evilgrin:
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Mojambo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-06-04 08:48 PM
Response to Original message
2. What a spectacularly bad idea
I really look forward to seeing how they go about this.
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Bush_Eats_Beef Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-06-04 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. A friend told me that in countries that have attempted this, it creates:
...an almost IMMEDIATE "barter" system.

People get creative, look for a way to exchange goods and services so that no cash needs to exchange hands.

Example: The plumber fixes the leaky toilet for the local auto mechanic, then goes to the guy's shop for a free oil change...and so on.

The other "undecided" and "not publicized" aspect of this is that they would have to decide if goods AND services are taxed.

If they went for BOTH and your rent right now is, say, $1000 / month, it will be $1560 / month immediately upon approval of the plan.

Uninsured, or paying a co-payment to your doctor? POTENTIALLY TAXABLE.

Folks, keep an eye on this one. If it starts moving forward, write letters, send faxes and e-mails, make phone calls...or plan to live in your car, if you can afford to.
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idiosyncratic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-06-04 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #6
19. Well, if that happens to my rent, I'll be homeless.
What about all the people like my mother who have a fixed income. Even if they get a rebate every month, how will she make the purchases for her needs in the first place?

--------------------------


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Bush_Eats_Beef Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-06-04 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. And you won't be alone.
I know a LOT of people who are living right the edge...waiting for a light breeze to come along and knock them on their ass. Living in fear from one moment to the next. If this National Sales Tax goes through, you WILL see a revolution. I can see a lot of smashed luxury car windows, a lot of guys in Armani suits with bodyguards if they have half a brain. You WILL see the defeated middle class turn their anger on the "1% Club"...the "haves" and the "have mores," as Bush so wittily calls them in "Fahrenheit 9/11"...on a BIBLICAL level.

See, here's the part that's not being discussed: this is a so-called "reform" of the INCOME TAX. Which means that if you are living on a "nest egg" you hoped you would never have to touch because you're out of work, you EARNED that money the first time around. You paid your tax...let's say 33%...and put the rest in the bank.

But a "National Sales Tax" won't RECOGNIZE the fact that you paid the initial tax. It only recognizes CONSUMPTION. So you go to the store with your dollar, which is really 66 cents because you have already paid "Income Tax" on it. You buy something at 156% of the sticker price.

FORTY TWO CENTS. That's right. If you buy something for forty two cents and pay 156%, it will cost you 66 cents. Multiply that across your "nest egg" and you can see how much of that the government will get. But hey, on the bright side...they can't take it until you spend it.

Regarding fixed incomes being offset by rebates...you're right, it won't help. I assume what will happen is people on fixed incomes will "network," pool their resources, and buy things like rice and beans which are cheap and will keep you alive. Everybody chips in and they can get a big bag of each and divide them up.

GOD help them if they get sick, especially if they get sick. Another cornerstone of the Bush-Cheney "simplification" is to eliminate items which qualify for tax deductions...things like charities are on the short list. Things like medical expenses could go under the "taxable services" banner and are NOT being flagged as deductions.
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Cobalt Violet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-06-04 08:48 PM
Response to Original message
3. So I can order as much as possible from Canada?
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Siyahamba Donating Member (890 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-06-04 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. Yeah, the GST is only 7% in Canada
:)
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billyoc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-06-04 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
4. Finally! I'll be cured
of compulsive shopping.

For food. :(
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-06-04 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. There goes the million dollar diet industry in this Country
since we'll all be skinny from not being able to afford food! Americans will no longer be the fattest people on Earth.
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koopie57 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-06-04 08:53 PM
Response to Original message
5. I think that
it should be implemented in the red states for the first year just to see how it goes. I'm sure they will jump at the chance to serve their president and prove how smart he really is.
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BayCityProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-06-04 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. LOL I
Edited on Sat Nov-06-04 08:57 PM by BayCityProgressive
I LAUGHED OUT LOUD WHEN I READ THAT! A MARVELOUS IDEA! Let the Red states do it!
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Nay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-06-04 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #5
14. HA! Perfect! Let those dumbasses try it!
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-06-04 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. Time for me to move back to my home state
Blue Cali!
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Booster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-06-04 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Oh, man. How do you stand it there? I'm originally from
Texas; hated everything about it; moved to Cali in 1966 and wouldn't leave this state to move to Texas for nothing. I'm retired now and living here is much more expensive for retirees, but I'm still willing to pay the difference - so far.
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w13rd0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-06-04 09:00 PM
Response to Original message
8. Wow...
...what a fabulous idea FOR THE INVESTMENT AND INHERITANCE CLAN. Does the purchase of say, a bearer bond, count as the purchase of a good? How about stocks? Would those be subject to a sales tax? What about land? Guns? My lord this is a bad idea...
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Bush_Eats_Beef Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-06-04 09:05 PM
Response to Original message
10. John Kerry spoke out against this on August 13th:
http://www.washtimes.com/national/20040813-123219-5930r.htm

CARSON, Calif. — Democratic presidential nominee Sen. John Kerry yesterday said President Bush is supporting a massive tax increase on the middle class by supporting the idea of a national sales tax.
"Just yesterday the other side talked about a national sales tax. At least that's what they call it. I call it one of the largest tax increases on the middle class in American history," Mr. Kerry told an audience at California State University Dominguez Hills.

Mr. Bush, answering a question at a forum in Florida on Tuesday, said a national sales tax is an "interesting idea that we ought to explore seriously." That comes on the heels of House Speaker J. Dennis Hastert, Illinois Republican, and House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, Texas Republican, both endorsing the idea. But Mr. Kerry said switching from income taxes to a national sales tax will hurt small businesses, job creation and middle class families.

"To switch to a national sales tax without increasing the deficit, which is what they said they'd do, you'd have to have at least a 26 percent add-on on top of the state and local sales taxes that Americans already pay. And we know exactly who that's going to hurt," he said. Mr. Kerry said he, instead, wants to raise taxes on the top 2 percent of earners to the level it was under President Bill Clinton, end the situation that allows American companies to move overseas for tax benefits, and offer targeted tax credits for college tuition and health care.
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PartyPooper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-06-04 09:06 PM
Response to Original message
11. Just a few days ago Junior was still sayin, "Kerry will raise your taxes!"
Can you fucking believe this shit?!?

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AmandaRuth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-06-04 09:09 PM
Response to Original message
13. well if we are going to be taxed at 56%, the least our dem leaders
can do is make sure every cent i spend in federal taxes comes right back into my local economy. after all, it is my money and i don't believe in subsidizing other states , not anymore, anyway.
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pa28 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-06-04 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
16. I'm sure it will be structured to hit the middle class hardest.
Edited on Sat Nov-06-04 09:46 PM by pa28
Initially they might say it is fair because the rich would be paying more for luxury items. Ultimately though they'll put a cap on taxable dollars. Say $15,000 because "money spent on luxury goods stimulates growth."

And if any of my neighbors complain it's going to be: "who did you vote for?"

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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-06-04 09:46 PM
Response to Original message
17. That's the OWNERSHIP Bush was talking about!
They want to OWN us all!
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