I feel an aneurysm coming on!

[freetobegay]

It's not just one fucking word (marriage)! It's what comes with it. Is that so fucking hard to understand?

On edit: spelling.

[Straight Shooter]

1. Not for me.

OTOH, I've never understood the idiocy of intolerance.

Hatreds and bigotries are the vertebrae in the GOP's spine. That is all that's holding them up.

Project your aneurysm onto someone who deserves it. Hint: Said person is on vacation.

[lynintenn]

2. Marriage is a great institution

and any one who believes that shoould be in one

[idiosyncratic]

3. LOL!

[Fovea]

4. I have married several gay/lesbian couples

But my religion calls it a handfasting.

No, it has no built in civil status. But neither should marriage
and *no* church in America should be tax free, but all should be able to deduct 150% of all they spend on actual food and shelter for those in need...

[RoyGBiv]

5. Hey ...

Now that's interesting. Seriously. I like it.

[prof_science]

6. I , for one have never understood...

...why married people get all that crap that "comes with it." Why do I, as a single person, have to subsidize someone's love/home life.

I'm not saying that marriage should be man and woman. I'm saying that I should not have to foot the bill for married people's tax breaks.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

11. Married people

don't really get much in the way of Tax breaks. Thus the marriage tax penalty you have heard about. It's not until you give birth to one or two little IRS deductions do you get tax relief of some sort. Even then it's not that huge of a relief and now you have extra people to take care of. Which costs a whole lot more than any tax break yu may have got. Why do I keep seeing single people talk about subsidizing married people love/home life? I have been married and have been taxed under that status and I have been single and had that tax status. I am now divorced with kids and my taxes are still eating my lunch every year.

[prof_science]

12. Ok, granted but...

...I don't understand why there have to be different tax rates for single and married people. This is a church/state issue for me. Marriage is a religion thing, period. Taxes are a state thing. Why a religious issue shows up on our 1040s? That's what gets me.

If a church wishes to wed two men or two women, that's up to the church and not the state. It seems to me that because our state affords "perks" to those who are married (and I do believe them to be perks as opposed to penalties) we get into these messy questions of if we should "allow" gay marriage.

How does this argument make me sound? Conservative? Liberal? I can't tell. I think my gay friends would agree with me, though...

[Bluebear]

34. I hear about the "marriage penalty" all the time

I'm not familiar with said penalty but I think that tax rates should certainly be equal.

[incapsulated]

7. Wes Clark position on the issue

Most people don't know...

His position was: gay unions should have all the same rights that straights have, all of them, and what it is called, "marriage" or whatever, is up to the religious institutions or whoever "marries" them. If it is in a State that doesn't allow "gay marriage" the civil union should still have all the same rights as a straight marriage, period.

I agree.

[Bluebear]

8. Precisely my position.

The most hateful "defense of marriage" amendments explicitly forbade such an arrangement. :(

[incapsulated]

9. Hell, they would forbid homosexuality itself...

If they could. Which is really what this is all about. Not the "sacredness" of marriage (hahaha!), it's homophobia.

[sandnsea]

13. And Kerry opposed them

For exactly that reason, and apparently refused to change that opinion even though Clinton suggested he should. His position is no different from Clark's or any other liberal Democrat.

[Bluebear]

14. Not quite...

Kerry's language was always first "I believe marriage is between a man and a woman" in order to appease the Christian Right. (Well, that went well!) Yes, he said was in favor or civil unions but now we can say that is exactly George W. bush's position too!

[sandnsea]

18. That's not true

He always said he was against gay marriage amendments and that it was writing discrimination into constitutions. He also said he personally thought gay marriage was between a man and a woman, but that the states should decide whether to go with civil unions or gay marriages. And don't even go there with that George Bush shit, it's hateful and stupid and doesn't help a damned thing.

[Bluebear]

20. Well aren't you pleasant!

By the way I have never "bashed" the man on gay rights. I worked my ass off for him and I think you ought to narrow your brush a bit.

[sandnsea]

22. Me? Pleasant?

Surely you jest. Comparing him to George Bush in any way, shape or form is bashing in my book.

[Bluebear]

24. Bush a week before the election said he favored civil unions

It set his religious base afire with rage. So I will extricate my hateful and stupid self out of here now and wish you all the best.

[sandnsea]

26. Exactly

And you want to slap that up against a man who fought for gay rights for 20 years? Shame on you.

[Bluebear]

33. Well I apologize for offending you for with an offhand comment

But shaming me and calling me hateful and stupid is a little extreme if you ask me. I am proud to have worked hard in my state to turn it blue for the Senator.

[Bluebear]

35. .

[arcos]

36. but remember he supported ammending the MA constitution... n/t

[incapsulated]

16. Not exactly

His position was for "civil unions" which don't necessarily have all the same rights that a straight marriage does, it depends on how they are defined. He was also on record as being personally against "gay marriage" even though he said it should be left to the states.

I don't blame Kerry or Clinton for any of this. I certainly don't blame gay people for going for an issue when the momentum just seemed to be there. Who is going to say "no" to a right that you have been denied when it comes up? I blame the fundie wackos. And their Masters: Bush and Rove.

[sandnsea]

19. He never said that

He always said gay couples should have all the rights of straight couples, ALWAYS. It has been amazing to me all year that one of the strongest supporters of gay rights EVER has been continuously bashed and misrepresented by gays.

[incapsulated]

21. He didn't say it often

He said he supported civil unions, and only if pressed. I don't blame him, and the results are confirmation that it was hardly a popular stance.

He never supported "marriage" between gay people, though. Yes, he said it should be a state issue, but he did not support it, personally, and he did say that often.

[sandnsea]

23. No it wasn't a party platform

Is that what you're saying, he didn't make it a central issue of his campaign? I think not wanting constitutional amendments banning gay marriage because it's discriminatory speaks for itself.

[incapsulated]

25. Look, what is your problem?

I never brought up Kerry or his positions. I don't blame Kerry for anything. I brought up Clark's positions, because he was my choice in the primaries and I agree with his stance, it explains mine quite well.

[Bluebear]

27. In other news, aren't you glad full-feature DU is back?

I missed avatars and stuff!

[incapsulated]

29. Yeah, I gotta get mine back!

Avatars, YaY! You don't know what you've got till it's gone. :)

[sandnsea]

28. Your choice in the primaries

There you go. When are the Kucinich people going to start dragging out how his positions would have won the election? I'm very tired of it. I'm beginning to think we were never really united and had a bunch of people out there saying 10 different things, griping and moaning about Kerry, and presenting an even more confused message. Somebody actually told me they were telling people Bush is a terrorist and worse than bin laden. No wonder we lost.

[incapsulated]

30. Oh, for fuck's sake

Stop taking out your frustrations on us. I worked for and supported Kerry 100%. I don't believe my guy would have had any better chance. The only thing that has pissed me off is the renewed battles in the other forum over the who should be the choice in 2008 (what a waste of time) where Clark has been painted as some kind of DLC'er or something. So, yeah, when I can I slip in his positions, if for no other reason than to educate people.

[sandnsea]

31. My apologies

We're both suffering the same thing then. And I'm thinking perhaps we should have ran Clark. No senate record, no liberal label or any long term label, just a nice guy from the south who has proven his heart's in the right place. Certainly not a DLC'er, I hadn't seen those stupid posts. Again, sorry.

[incapsulated]

32. That's ok

We are all under a lot of stress right now. :)

[LiberteToujours]

10. I like the idea

Of eliminating marriage in a legal sense altogether.

Here is my opinion as a gay Canadian male. This whole gay marriage issue was brought on by the Republicans to move the debate forward to a battleground that they could win on. Gay rights activists have been moving forward VERY successfully over the past decades through things like anti-hate crime legislation, anti-discrimination workplace laws, increased media exposure, civil unions, etc. The radical right has seen this so they have moved the debate forward ten or twenty years where it should be naturally. YES, marriage for all people is the ultimate end goal, but we cannot fight that battle in the United States yet, for we will lose. Just look at what it has done: now several states have anti-civil union laws as well! We need to stop letting the Republicans frame the debate, and move it back to where we have been wildly successful and continue to have success. Then eventually we will be ready to tackle marriage for all. Have patience. It pays off.

[sandnsea]

15. Back during the primaries

This approach was suggested by many, including me. We were told we were proposing that gays be treated as second class citizens, weren't truly supporting gay rights, and a whole lot more. I think the logical choice is a civil partnering license and letting religion decide who to marry or not marry. Then if gay couples want to be married, they can find a church who will bless their union.

[Bluebear]

17. withdrawn