Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

It was an act of self-defense........

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU
 
Liberal Veteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 02:53 AM
Original message
It was an act of self-defense........
Edited on Sun Nov-07-04 02:56 AM by liberal_veteran
Honestly, it was.

Yes. I might have been a bit harsh on Christianity and some may acuse me of bashing Christianity, but from where I stand, Christianity bashed me before I ever thought about bashing it.

I grew up in the church, as it were. I watched with young eyes as my little community Southern Baptist church went from just a fellowship of people to worship together and help each other and as the years passed it turned into something else.

I started seeing signs of it creeping into Sunday school where we would be told all sorts of interesting tales about how everyone in the world was out to destroy Christianity and how there was some huge conspiracy to make Christianity illegal.

About the same time I started to see a schism form in the church as well, as the older people began to die off, we stopped having as many church suppers and using our church to help others in the community and using it to further isolate ourselves from the world. I also it becoming more and more about teaching about other people's evils and pointing out of sin than teaching about the love of Jesus and forgiveness. I also saw how the wealthier in church began to look down just ever so slightly on the poor in the church.

Of course it was at the time I was growing up, and some of it was likely present from the beginning.

Then I remember one day hearing a guest preacher come to church to teach about the evils of homosexuality and how they were trying to recruit all children. Being a teen who was coming to grips with my own sexuality at the time and not an unintelligent person at that, I began to look at what I was being told in a new light.

What my church did for me was something I won't forget even if I can forgive: They instilled in me a sense of worthless and self-loathing for myself that I didn't deserve.

It took me years to reconcile my Christian upbringing with my homosexuality. Eventually, I decided that I really didn't need a church to believe and learn about Christ. I could do that as well on my own. I knew how to read, cross-reference, and study the scholarship of others. I don't like organized religion anymore. I think there is much to be learned from the bible, but I don't think dressing it up in rituals and singing hymns and listening to droning preachers is helpful. I've gathered quite a bit of wisdom in how to be a decent human being from the words of Jesus and am probably a better person for it.

But there is one thing I am certain. As I look back through my life and how many difficulties my sexual orientation has caused me in life and the obstacles that people toss at me over it, I find they generally have a root source....it's that same church that I left behind years ago in disgust.

I know there are many people who think of themselves as Christians who get very upset when people are critical and tend to get defensive when people say negative things in general terms about Christianity.

It's not easy hearing that there is an ugly side to Christianity that infected the US version of it or to hear people say things that you don't feel pertain to what you believe as a Christian. I can understand that and respect it. I can also understand feeling defensive.

But I want you to also try to understand where the other side is coming from on that as well. When I know that the overwhelming majority of people who voted this week to try to limit my rights as a person in 11 states did so because of their faith and I express some bitterness about that....

Keep in mind where it's coming from....They bashed me long before I ever considered bashing back.

It's an act of self-defense and it's not aimed specifically at you but at the millions upon millions who used their faith an tool of oppression on Tuesday.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
dxdem Donating Member (246 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 03:00 AM
Response to Original message
1. Thankful...
I'm going to a UU church nowadays. I got sick and tired of all of the plain bs I was getting in the other churches. I was a UU long before I ever realized it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
alittlelark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 03:01 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Which one do you go to?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dxdem Donating Member (246 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #3
14. UU
Unitarian Universalist Church of Augusta, in Augusta, GA. http://www.uucsra.org
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
alittlelark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 03:01 AM
Response to Original message
2. I'll bet that MORALLY it feels right
if it feels right in your gut, it is right.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jdots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 03:02 AM
Response to Original message
4. I have seen this happen in Judism
Now there are conservative,reformed and orthodox temples,all bickering and saying the others are wrong is some way.It seems like the soul and understanding have been ripped out.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 03:05 AM
Response to Original message
5. i know several gay people who grew up the same way
in churches that taught them nothing but self-loathing. one in particular, spent several years of her life as a performance artist doing work to reconcile her christian beliefs with her sexuality. eventually she became a minister in the MCC church.
now she's a computer programmer :shrug:
i hear you...i've been pretty pissed off lately myself. we took a beating in this election, one that i am not sure we will recover from anytime soon. as i mentioned in another thread, one consequence of all the gay demonizing will be MORE self-loathing and MORE fear.
if people don't see the difference between * moral crusaders and themseleves...then it's not your problem.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LeftCoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 03:09 AM
Response to Original message
6. I didn't read your other post, but this one is spot on!
Excellent post!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bronco69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 03:10 AM
Response to Original message
7. Thank you for that post!
"They bashed me long before I ever considered bashing back."

I couldn't have said it better myself!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LTRS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 03:18 AM
Response to Original message
8. I don't understand why people who think that....
Islamic fundementalism is evil and a bastardization of religion can't understand that Christian fundementalism is also evil and a bastardization of religion. The problem is fundementalism, period.

Why is that so difficult to understand?

Oh yeah, because they are crazy!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DELUSIONAL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 03:20 AM
Response to Original message
9. Of course it was self defense -- the other course could have been
suicide.

I was doing research on suicide -- we have an abnormally hight suicide rate in this semi rural county. And in the course of trying to determine was a "normal" rate of suicide would be -- you know how many suicides per hundred thousand -- I discovered a whole lot of research on "hidden suicide".

There is a high rate of suicide among juvenile age children -- right around the time that many realize that they are homosexual. The cause of death or the reason for the suicide are often hidden -- but it is estimated to be much higher than shown in official statistics.

I started thinking about some of the suicides of young people I've heard about or have known -- how they showed many of the signs, they gave away treasured possession shortly before the killed themselves, and after being depressed they were suddenly bright and cheerful. No problem, people would think --until the kid was found dead.

It seems the most dangerous time for abused women is when the leave their abuser -- that transition period. And so it seems that for young gay kids -- the most dangerous time is that transition period -- when they realize that they are different.

Oh how I wish this culture had the wisdom of some of the "primitive" cultures where homosexuals were shown respect and in some cases revered and in most cases being homosexual was considered to be no big deal.

The fundies do NOT have the moral high ground -- we liberals do. The true christian principals are liberal.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NamVetsWeeLass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 04:33 AM
Response to Original message
10. I really hate to Bring up "Dogma" at this point,
but Kevin Smith and his writers had the perfect Idea. "The Idea is to have faith, No one denomination has nailed it yet." To me, being a Pratitioner of Witchcraft is faith, my own style. I was raised "lapsed" Roman Catholic, meaning Mother was raised in a VERY Catholic way, I went to church with Gran, and I stopped one day to talk to the Priest. He knew my ENTIRE family (the Italian Side, the Scots were Protestant/Catholic split about down the middle.)My cousin was the Church's Organist, My Great Aunt and Great Uncle were Church Elders, She was highly active in the Church Auxiliary. My Gran didn't miss a Sunday, You get the Idea. Well, I was 12. I was having Issue with my Father's Death, (suicide.) I was having a hard time with a lot of things and I sought guidance from the man that the Diocese had placed to take care of our Small Country Very Italian Church. I sat down with him explaining that I hadn't been baptised, since Mother didn't make that happen, but I needed good sound guidance and needed to talk to him. He consented and started judging me from the fact that I wasn't baptised. I told him of my Father, and his death, explaining to him every detail I knew, explaining that he had sought treatment for the Nightmare that was Vietnam that kept haunting him. I explained his death. I simply asked him one simple Question, Not knowing the Answer, not knowing any answer, I wanted to know that my Dad's Soul was somewhere that he was being taken care of. (if you have read any of my other posts, You know my Dad is the Closest thing to a Guardian Angel that I have.) He looked at me and asked why I was asking HIM such a question. I replied that It was a matter that I was really struggling with, he simply responded with "Your Father is in hell with the rest of the Sinners and it is the place you will end up since you aren't purified by Baptism". I guess I sat there for a few minutes, just staring at this man blankly while he explained that anyone who takes their own life commits the biggest sin of all, and that they all should burn in hell where they all deserve to be. He also told me that while it wasn't too late for me, that I needed to be confirmed, baptised, Etc, to make myself "fit" enough for Heaven. Now, My Gran was standing in the Church Vestibule, waiting on me. She loved my Dad, He was a Good Catch for My Mother, Gran knew that, and she knew what I wanted to talk to Father "BillyBob" about. she said the strangest feeling came over her, that I was in desparate emotional Distress, She said it felt Like I slapped her to get her attention... She couldn't hear the coversation, she did say she could tell I was crying, but I did that when anyone spoke about my Dad. Well, I finally had enough of what this fool was telling me about My Dad not only being in Hell, but DESERVING to be there. I stood up, and I looked at him as eloquently as a young Teenager can and I said "I will not Believe that, and I will not Believe you." He started to assure me that I was following down the same path, and I told him that I didn't care "if I was in hell with my Dad, I would rather stay there than with the Judgemental idiots in Heaven", and for Emphasis I flipped the man off... My Gran came to get me, asking him what he had told me to make me so upset, I had started to break out in hives I was so distraught. She knew me, she knew I was a hard ass even back then, and he really had to go out of his way to make me have this reaction. He told her what he said and she looked like someone had smacked her again. She reported him. She decided that she had to take me to my country Doctor, and He gave me something to "calm me down." and told Gran to keep an eye on me. He told her that I would benefit from either Calamine or an Oatmeal Bath if I was still so "shocky" when I woke up. He told her that he had given me a half of a 2.5 mg Valium, and asked her what all happened, since I was one of those kids that could Smile through anything. He SAW me wreck my bike one time, and break my thumb, he was shocked because I barely Cried. He took care of me since my Birth, he KNEW this had to be something Monumental to have me in the shape I was in. He also reported "father Billybob". My Great Uncle, who was in the 101rst Screaming Eagles Airborne Division in WW2 came down and asked Gran what was going on. Gran told him, and he promptly went down to see "father Billybob". Oddly, Father Billybob was moved from our church within two weeks. He cited Personal Reasons behind this swift departure.(more than likely fear of "god" Placed into him by my VERY pissed off Uncle Herman, who rather looked and Sounded like John Wayne and a Young Robert DiNero combined, Big guy, tattoo on his forearm of that Screaming Eagle.... imposing man, but a huge teddy bear till you pissed him off.) That was the End of being a Catholic for Me. Now the church changed a lot after that, The new Father was Father Paul. He grew close to my family, and he was told of what happened with Father BillyBob. Father Paul expressed a lot of regret over the incident. He came to all of our Family Functions, and talked to me on a regular basis. He told everyone in My family that he thought I was a bit wild, but closer to being a Truly Beautiful Human than anyone he knew. I pull no Punches, I tell things the way they are, He still talks of the day I walked over to him at a Family Reunion and asked him how much in Royalties the Beatles were giving him, cause he was obviously the Missing Beatle with his new hairdo, after he asked me what I thought of it. He never tried to talk me into going to Church, he said he knew that it was jaded for me, and that he wasn't there to make me mental. He knows How I feel about things, he knows that I have Faith albeit my own. That is enough for him. Now, Seven years after the Father Billybob incident, He called my House to ask that I come to Midnight mass for Christmas. It was to be in honor of my Family, Uncle Herman had passed on by this time, so it would be for My Great GrandParents and for Uncle Herman. I told him yes, As long as he added one name to that list, and he said to hang on, he was getting the list of names that he would be reading. He came back and Started to read all the names, in Italian, until the Very Last one, he said the last one in English, Because it was never meant to be said in Italian. He read my Dad's Name, in all it's Scots Glory. I nearly fell over, and was silent. He told me that reading my Dad's name wasn't officially for the Church since he wasn't Catholic, but it was to make an old wrong right. He also knew it would Burn my Mother's ass, which it did. But there I sat in midnight mass between my Gran and My Boyfriend and smiled. I still talk to Father Paul, who Still is Head of that small church. He still calls me Wild thing, and I still say he looks like the Missing Beatle. He knows I am a Witch, and he accepts it, knowing that the family doesn't really know and wouldn't accept it if they did. He has kept tabs on me and both kids, and in phone conversations has blessed both of them in his own way. He's Father Paul, the Missing Beatle, what can I say? I know this is hugely long and rambling, But in Short I can understand why you feel the way you do and the way you felt. Find faith in yourself, find it anyway you can!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. I liked reading this. But I have a simple request
Breaking it into paragraphs would make it easier to follow.

Thanks.

--IMM
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NamVetsWeeLass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 02:06 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. I thought about that AFTER I posted it.
Sometimes it is like I have to just get it all out, and then I forget to break it up. Just a me Thing. I will try to remember.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 02:17 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. Nah
Words from the gut have to come out in a shot. It was wonderful and paragraphing is a personal pet peeve.

I'm so glad that you have a Father Paul. If there were more of them, we wouldn't be in this mess. Isn't it peculiar that Jesus came to tell us love in our heart was more important than adherance to dogmatic law, and that we're right back where we started anyway.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Abelman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 04:41 AM
Response to Original message
11. You know what?
It just occured to me, and I don't know why it hasn't before.

I don't think Jesus really cares about two dudes holding hands. So long as no one is made a victim, so long as no one is unloved, I don't think he would really care that much.

I wish modern Christianity would be more accepting of sexuality and all it encompasses. I think all Jesus wants us to do is embrace sex on a spiritual and emotional level. I doubt he'd much care for sex just to get off, because that really isn't that great. I've been there.

But making love...well, now I've wandered off topic.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Liberal Veteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Well, the important thing many Christians forget....
...that despite the fact they consider homosexuality such an abomination , Jesus didn't say a word about. Not a single one.

He had plenty to say about hypocrits and the greedy and overly righteous, but not a single thing to say about gay people.

Isn't it odd they would focus so much on something that Jesus didn't even think was worthy of a quick word or two?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Liberal Veteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
13. Bump for the morning crowd who missed my midnight rant....
:)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 03:20 PM
Response to Original message
15. "You will be hated, just as they hate me" The poor beleagured,...
beseiged, persecuted believers need to actually read their book of fairy tales and dubious biography
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Tue Apr 23rd 2024, 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC