Exposing churches...?

[DireStrike]

Wouldn't the government just love to revoke the tax exempt status of churches?

What if people bring video and tape recorders into churches, and bring evidence of them just about endorsing a political candidate? Think we can get this snake to bite itself in the tail?

[ScreamingMeemie]

1. Except the government wanted the Catholic Church to endorse the anti-

gay marriage sentiment this year. They asked them too. And with a Republican Administration and Congress, I really can't see anyone giving two poops...:hi:

[blue sky at night]

2. My Brother knows an IRS agent

He tells me they are looking into churches that endorsed the * openly and will go after their tax exempt status. We shall see.

[Cerridwen]

3. Please tell me that includes LDS/Mormon churches who have

been getting away with this crap for decades.

[0007]

4. .....please bop these hateful paranoid greedy selfish money lords, 0h God!

[BamaBecky]

12. Panama City First Baptist Church, Panama City, Florida

A friend from PC told me that his neighbor said that their pastor told the PCFBC to vote for Bush -

[jdj]

15. I hope so. I think I shall be going to church alot in summer of 2002.

I'm sick of it. They are blatantly, blatantly partisan.

And churches have tremendously expanded their "base" since when I was young.

They have women leaders and preachers, women are much more present,they have evangelical leaders on tv like Paula White, etc.

The role of women has expanded tremendously 30 years, ironic when you think they are about to stick it to women in a major way. What is the big deal of being able to wear pants to church if you still get to die in childbirth.

[ElaineinIN]

5. 501(c)(3)

I'm an attorney who specializes in this area... I wish it were so easy. Section 501(c)(3) organizations cannot engage in any "political activities" and can engage in only a very limited amount of "lobbying". Political activities are endorsing or campaigning for, directly or indirectly, candidates for political office. Its my personal opinion that this provision was violated left and right this season.

However, there is a raging constitutional argument with regard to churches right now. In most cases, museums, hopsitals, etc., we say that tax exemption is a matter of legislative grace, and the prohibition on political activities is the price you pay for not paying taxes. However, churches have asserted that they have a constitutional basis for not paying taxes--the Lemon test has a prong about "excessive entanglement" between gov't and churches, which would happen if churches have to pay taxes. Partially for this reason, churches (but not religous organizations) are exempt from certain filing requirements that other 501(C)(3)s must follow.

The IRS does not want to go anywhere near this. The political verus legal mess is incredible. And I guarantee you that if the Southern Baptists exemption were revoked, the legislation pending to remove the political limitation on lobbying will be passed almost immediately. IMHO... don't wake this sleeping dog. The IRS won't do it, and I'm not sure you'd like the consequences if they did....

[DireStrike]

6. Isn't the idea that they're "not a church" anymore if they endorse?

=(

[ElaineinIN]

9. No they are still a church

... they just potentially lose their statutory tax exempt status. But because the Constitution is higher law than any statute, their argument goes that the Constitutional exemption which is based on the first amendment trumps the statutory exemption. Mind you, this is their argument, and they've not really pushed it too hard yet. If the IRS tried to revoke the exemption of a big and wealthy denomination, you'll see a battery of lawyers try to make it all the way to the SC... and given that the SC may soon be very very Republican and very very religious... well, I'm not crazy about that...

[jdj]

17. I want them to shut up. The IRS warns them and fines them

first I think.

I want a whisper campaign that there are democratic trolls in their congregations (like me) who are watching their every move so they better freaking watch their step. I want the behavior stopped, and I want them to get back in their rightful place of being ever so grateful for their religious freedom instead of trying to take mine away from ME.

I want there to be no voter registration in churches, no voting in churches, no politicians' speeches in churches either left or right orientation, because "by their works ye shall know them", I don't want to hear alot of talk anyway.

I want the democratic vote out of bed with the scarlet harlot of politicized christianity NOW.

[ElaineinIN]

21. Smart!

I agree... that's the way to go. Let them know quietly we are out there and we are watching. Let them know quietly that we are writing to the IRS. Let them play audit roulette if they want... but if we are all out and noisy and in their face, we over play our hand. That was just my point.... not that we totally give them a pass!

[DireStrike]

7. Dupe

[Jade Fox]

8. Crimeony, so there's no way to nail these bastards?

Would allowing them to lobby in exchange for losing their tax-excemption
be worth it? Money seems like a more crucial issue. For all intent and
purposes, lobbying is already happening.

Welcome to DU, by the way.

[ElaineinIN]

11. I think its a matter of scale...

Go after individual churches, not denominations...
Go after egregious and repeat violators, not boarderline cases
Don't make it look like a witchhunt so that the Fundies get a marytrdom complex and contact their legislators
The idea of increased audit activity without actual examptions (there is an excise tax they can impose)... My mom used to threaten to spank me, but she only did it once... enought so I never wanted to go there again :)

The IRS denied exemption for Bob Jones University and won. They denied exemption for either Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell's "educational" organization. They can do it, they just need to be very cautions.

[Jade Fox]

14. So whom do we contact/email....

to "encourage" the IRS to do this?

I don't understand this sentence: The idea of increased audit activity without
actual exemptions (there is an excise tax they can impose)

Thanks for your great info here. :thumbsup:

[ElaineinIN]

16. I would contact

If you have specific evidence of a violation, The district director's office for examinations, or if you can't find that the, the IRS office in Cincinnati/Covington KY, which is where most exemption applications are processed, and make a note that it is a "referral". I think you can find the addresses at www.irs.gov--in Chicago, its at 230 South Dearborn Street. These guys are professionals and they take enforcing the law seriously.

However, the policy issue comes from DC. There you would right the Director of Exempt Organizations and Governmental Entities-- TE/GE, or the Assistant Directors for Tax Policy or Examinations. Again, check the IRS websites for addresses. I belive many of these guys are not political appointees, but career civil servant--doesn't mean that they won't be immune from political pressure, though.

On the sentence quoted above... sorry part of that is that I left our some words (can't you read my mind?).

If churches think that they will be audited and that the IRS is actually willing to revoke exemptions, by maybe doing one or two clear cut ones that the community hears about or, in lieu of revoking tax exemptions, imposing a statutorily authorized penalty excise tax on prohibited political activities, then the other churches are going to be more attunted to compliance issues. Its the threat of getting caught, but that threat doesn't deter bad behaviour unless they think that getting caught is a realistic possibility.

[Cerridwen]

10. I think I'm being dense this morning.

Would you expand on this, please.

"The IRS does not want to go anywhere near this. The political verus legal mess is incredible. And I guarantee you that if the Southern Baptists exemption were revoked, the legislation pending to remove the political limitation on lobbying will be passed almost immediately. IMHO... don't wake this sleeping dog. The IRS won't do it, and I'm not sure you'd like the consequences if they did...."

Also, what about the other poster's question about having lost church status when they endorse (Providing you haven't answered it by the time I spell check and post this.)

[ElaineinIN]

13. sure!

Imagine, for the moment, that the IRS revokes the Southern Baptist's exemption? They fundies will go absolutely ape shit. Imagine the 700 Club... I've already (unfortunately) seen Pat Robertson complain about the political prohibition. The So Baps have cash, and lots of lawyers willing to give pro bono time, and there will be a legal battle of the scale the IRS has not seen in a long time--they tried to take on the Scientologists a while back, and this would be bigger and messier. Shrub will be out there with his masses decrying the evil IRS, citing it as more evidence as to why we just need to do away with them altogether and have a flat tax. Some of the lunatics in the House have already introduced legislation to allow churches to engage in political activities and not endanger their 501(c)(3) status--its been pretty much dead and inactive at this point. I would predict that the 700 Club and every fundy with access to a pre printed post card will be writing their legislators about how the IRS is discriminating against them as Christians and violating their 1st amendment rights--whether that is legally true, is of course, irrelevant. With the Congress solidly repub, and with six Supreme Court justices on the verge of death or retirement in the next four years, I just don't like the way that scenario plays out. I think we've got to be smart and play it slow and quiet for a while on this front.

[Cerridwen]

19. Got it. And nicely, for me, said. You've done a great job of

explaining it to my non-legal mind.

Thank you.

:hi:

[mitchum]

18. I AM SICK OF THESE PULPIT-DWELLING WELFARE QUEENS

[formernaderite]

20. What do you think goes on in black churches?

Why do you think white guys like Kerry parade through the black churches every election? I don't disagree with you, I'd love to see all religious pandering stop....but our side does it on television.

[ElaineinIN]

22. I agree.. and it might be good for us

I do think that the amount of organizing that went on in fundy churches this year is appalling and blatent. There are ways around it for those who are careful, and most of the candidates (I'm thinking Gore in 2000) know them. But the fundies this year didn't even try.

I would bet that if the IRS tries to revoke one fundy church, they might also try to find one Dem church as well, so as to look even handed. Undermines the you're persecuting Christian argument, but disprportionately hurts the repubs in deterrance effect.