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It's hard not to be bitter and sarcastic w/family regarding Iraq war...

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vi5 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-03 06:23 AM
Original message
It's hard not to be bitter and sarcastic w/family regarding Iraq war...
My parents and my brother are fairly liberal but were totally fooled with regard to the war in Iraq. They weren't gung ho at all and had a lot of reservations. But they did think Iraq was a threat, that Saddam had weapons, and that....well....just that they trusted our leaders even when they don't like them personally and they wanted to feel safe and secure. I calmly threw every piece of info I had to counter the spin and while they weren't dismissive they definitely took a "We're going to go in no matter what so we might as well be supportive approach".

Well now when they say something about how badly it's going over there, or how Bush* lied or when we all watch something on the news about the animosity around the world and the hatred being shown us in Iraq it's very hard not to say "Wow. It would have been nice if someone pointed this stuff out BEFORE the war, huh? It would have been nice if someone pointed out that Bush* was using bogus intelligence to puff up the case....it would have been nice if someone pointed out that occupying an oppressed muslim country will be a bitter, deadly quagmire, huh?....it would have been nice if someone pointed out that most of the evidence pointed to saddam NOT having the weapons to attack us or any ties to Al Qaeda, huh?"

Most of the time I do refrain but sometimes it's very hard. Luckily in the end they are on my side about most things so I know there's no bad feelings. It's just not something I want to be "I told you so!" about.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-03 06:32 AM
Response to Original message
1. I know how you feel
when I hear people around here spouting that line, I'd love to remind them that there was a bunch of us out at the courthouse protesting in January, February, and March. But I don't think it is really productive to mention it.
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liberalmuse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-03 07:26 AM
Response to Original message
2. In the course of a conversation...
several months ago, I told one of my bosses that there were no WMD's in Iraq and that the Bush administration would not find a single one. He insisted, 'Oh yes they will.' Needless to say, he doesn't mention the Iraq war these days. How is it possible that some of us can manage to get the right information, while most don't? I think it shows the unwillingness of a lot of people to verify 'facts' before they believe them. It's very frustrating!
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Atlant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-03 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #2
10. There's a well-known phenomenon called "Buyer's remorse"
> How is it possible that some of us can manage to get the right
> information, while most don't?

There's a well-known phenomenon called "Buyer's remorse".
It happens when (essentially), you finally get something that
you wanted for a long, long time, but it then turns out to be not
nearly as great as you thought it would be.

This is what a LOT of Republicans are experiencing right now.
For years, they've wanted to control the whole country; all three
branches of the Federal Government, most of the state houses and
governors chairs, all the corporations. No more "liberals", Democrats,
or other panty-waists getting in their way, no-siree-Bob! Just let
them have full control and they'd show you how it's supposed to be
done!

And in 2000 and 2002, they pretty much got their wish.

And just look how well it's turning out for them. What seemed liked
such a great thing must surely now taste like ashes. As the Onion
so presciently put it back in January or 2001, "Our long national
nightmare of peace and prosperity is finally over!".

So, naturally, they're not too keen on "seeing" the destruction that
they've caused. It's far easier to ignore the facts than to accept
that they were hood-winked, that they made stupid decisions
when they put the Boy King in power. It's not that they COULDN'T
see, it's that they chose (and are still choosing) deliberately NOT
TO SEE
. And as we all know, there are none so blind...

Still, reality must be whacking them all pretty hard these days, and
I really can't believe that they won't have at least some clue by
2004.

At least, I hope so, for all of our sake's.

Atlant

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IkeWarnedUs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-03 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. Buyers remorse along with horror of the reality
I've been in enough ACOA and abuse survivor groups to recognize another pattern. People don't want to believe that someone they depend on for their very survival would do such terrible things.

Like mom who tells herself nothing is wrong when her husband spends an hour in her daughter's room in the middle of the night. The horror of the reality of the situation is so overwhelming that it can't be real. It just can't. So it isn't. Until things get so bad that mom can't live in her denial anymore, although some do.
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Athame Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-03 08:26 AM
Response to Original message
3. Propaganda target practice (long)
My family and I had come to sort of an uspoken truce where we just didn't talk about the invasion and I have not been saying, "I told you so," either. Then, this morning I got this e-mail from my mother. Any suggestions on how to counter it?:

Subject: A Shreveport Judge's Report on Iraq

Last Wednesday night, I attended a lecture by Judge Don Walters, a federal judge who was asked to serve as part of a 12 man team in Iraq to evaluate their justice system. It was most interesting, and afterwards, I asked if he had a book or a recording of any of his lectures. Since he did not, he was generous enough to give me his notes from the evening.

For those of you interested, I will give you a slightly abridged version of his lecture which I found difficult to cut down due to its wealth of information.

THE LECTURE:

I really am not into public speaking as I am sure you are about to find out. But my adventures in Iraq taught me something that I would very much like to share with you. I have been fortunate over the past 5 or 6 years to get to such exotic places as Bosnia, Jakarta, Indonesia, and Morocco. But, Iraq is my swan song. First, I am too old for such adventures, and second, Charlotte (my wife) won't let me. In mid-April, I got a call from DoJ asking if I would be willing to go to Iraq for up to 3 months to evaluate the justice system and make recommendations.&nb sp; When I went home, Charlotte said without a pause, "how could I possibly tell you, no?"

Let me begin with a disclaimer, I was in Iraq for fewer than 40 days, I was in Baghdad for a little over three weeks and in the three provinces of the far south for two weeks. I am limited in what I saw and heard. Needless to say, the opinions are my own. I want to make it clear that, initially, I vehemently opposed the war.

The team of 12 that went to Iraq was to access the judiciary and to make recommendations for the future. We were sent too soon and without
sufficient planning and forethought. Accordingly we were forced to play our part by ear. Ultimately, we were successful. No thanks to the civil authorities in Washington or Iraq.

We were divided into 4 teams. We were the southern team: Mike Farhang, an AUSA from Los Angeles, Harvard Summa Undergraduate, Harvard Law Review, Linguist, 5 languages including Arabic; Rich Coughlin, Federal Public Defender from New Jersey, who abandoned his wife and 23 month old daughter to volunteer for this; and me. We were accompanied by an interpreter and protected by what I called our "minders," four Iraqis well-armed with 9mm hand guns and AK47's.

During the first two weeks, we talked to a few hundred Iraqis and
interviewed about 60 judges. Our help came from our Danish colleagues and the First Armored Division (UK), not from the civil authorities - OPCA, Office of the Provisional Coalition Authority,
(formerly ORHA), Ambassador Brenner's group.

Despite my initial opposition to the war, I am now convinced, whether we find any weapons of mass destruction or prove Saddam sheltered and financed terrorists, absolutely, we should have overthrown the Baathists, indeed, we should have done it sooner.

What changed my mind?

When we left mid June, 57 mass graves had been found, one with the bodies of 1200 children. There have been credible reports of murder, brutality and torture of hundreds of thousands of ordinary Iraqi citizens. There is poverty on a monumental scale and fear on a larger one. That fear is still palpable.

I have seen the machines and places of torture. I will tell you one story told to me by the Chief of Pediatrics at the Medical College in Basra. It was one of the most shocking to me, but I heard worse.

One of Saddam's security agents was sent to question a Shiite in his home. The interrogation took place in the living room in the presence of the man's wife, who held their three month old child. A question was asked and the thug did not like the answer; he asked it again, same answer. He grabbed the baby from its mother and plucked its eye out. And then repeated his question. Worse things happened with the knowledge, indeed with the participation, of Saddam, his family and the Baathist regime.

Thousands suffered while we were messing about with France and Russia and Germany and the UN. Every one of them knew what was going on there, but France and the UN were making millions administering the food for oil program.

We cannot, I know, remake the world, nor do I believe we should. We cannot stamp out evil, I know. But this time we were morally right and our economic and strategic interests were involved. I submit that just because we can't do everything doesn't mean that we should do nothing.

We must have the moral courage to see this through, to do whatever it takes to secure responsible government for the Iraqi people. Having decided to topple Saddam, we cannot abandon those who trust us. I fear we will quit as the horrors of war come into our living rooms. Look at the stories you are getting from the media today. The steady drip, drip, drip of bad news may destroy our will to fulfill the obligations we have assumed. WE ARE NOT GETTING THE WHOLE TRUTH FROM THE NEWS MEDIA. The news you watch, listen to and read is highly selective. Good news doesn't sell. 90% of the damage you see on tv was caused by Iraqis, not by US. All the damage you see to schools, hospitals, power generation facilities, refineries, pipelines and water supplies, as well as shops, museums, and semi-public
buildings (like hotels) was caused either by the Iraqi army in its death throes or Iraqi civilians looting and rioting.

The day after the war was over, there was nearly 0 power being generated in Iraq. 45 days later, 1/3 of the total national potential of 8000 MW is up and running. Downed power lines are being repaired and were about 70% complete when I left. There is water purification where little or none existed before...this time to everyone.

Oil is 95% of the Iraqi GNP. In order for Iraq to survive, it must sell oil. All the damage to the oil fields was done by the Iraqi army or looters. The 14 story office building of the Southern Iraq Oil Company in Basra was torched by Baathist, destroying all of the books, records and computers of the company. Today, the refinery at Bayji is at 75% of capacity. The crude pipeline between Kirkuk and Bayji has been repaired, though the Baathist keep trying to disrupt it.

If we are doing all this for the people, why are they shooting us?

The general population isn't. By my sample, 90% are glad we came and the majority doesn't want us to leave for some time to come, but there are still plenty of bad guys, the Baathists who lived well under Saddam. The thugs of the old regime still hope to return to power, and there are plenty of them, mostly located in Sunni areas. Then too, Saddam, in the Ramadan amnesty, let every murderer, butcher, rapist and violent criminal loose on his own people. There are interests, including organized crime, with a desire for anarchy and profit. There are disruptive forces from Saudi Arabia, Iran and Syria.

We saw poverty on a scale that I have never witnessed except in pictures of Haiti. I saw one little girl: she was slender, very pretty, about 5 or 6 years old, in a tattered dress with a broad red hem, part of which was torn and dragging in the dirt. She would touch her heart and make hungry gestures. She was duplicated a thousand times during the journey.

The poverty in Iraq is a sharp contrast to the lives of Saddam and his
sons. Saddam alone, not counting Ouday and Qusay and the leading
Baathists, had 43 palaces. We are using several for civilian government. The one where OPCA is located is the main republican palace occupying over 2000 acres. It is a monument to narcissism, four 25 foot tall heads of Saddam decorate the front of the palace, and his portraits and statues are everywhere.

We went to a second palace by the airport. It is surrounded by a lake
which was created by diverting the Euphrates water which limited
agricultural irrigation downstream. His palace in Basra was used by him only once I am told.

Basra functions fairly well except for the power. There are 6 lines into the city, but it does not have a standard power grid. Saddam used power and other essentials as a method of punishing a city of 3 million! He would cut power for days to punish them. When I tell you the temperatures there, you will understand how bad that was. I am told that in high summer, it will hit 155 degrees, even 160! He has made no investments in this area which is overwhelmingly Shiite. He has few friends there. Consequently, it is easier for the Brits to govern, unlike Baghdad. And they are doing a good job of it. They are doing it at the moment by using pre-war personnel, perhaps contrary to Brenner's de-Baathification order.

The problem with Brenner's policy is that it removes almost all of the
people who ran the country. The Brits have been pragmatic: they have
largely left the judges and police in place and are removing them as they see the need and they are able to train and replace the bad ones. That was our problem in Haiti, we trained a police force but did not put the judiciary in place so that the jails just filled up and then overcrowding forced criminal s out. And the Haitian police have largely quit. (Ouday had a solution to overcrowding, when he received a complaint of overcrowding, he went to the prison and personally shot every 3rd prisoner.)

We want to keep Iraq a secular state, and that will present some
difficulties as there is no real concept of separation of church and state in Islam. Attaturk was a true revolutionary where this was concerned. The tribal and sahria (religious) courts are functioning, and if we don't get a move on, they will replace the civil and criminal courts.

I find it difficult to explain how differently they think. I remember
telling Mike, "I don't think we are on the same page with this fellow." Mike said, "Don, I am not sure we are in the same library." For a large percentage of the Iraqi people, and they are most adamant, famil y and tribe are everything, religion and state are one and the same. That they don't understand us is our biggest problem in the middle east. They perceive our way of life as a threat to theirs,...and it is. They fear the modern world is about to run over them, destroying family life as they know it, educating and freeing their women, forbidding honor killing...coca colas, jeans, lack of parental respect and respect for the old ways and religion. And to defend their way of life and their religion, they will die with the same fervor with which the Christians marched to the lions. In their fear of western life, some will fight and kill us; but I remain
convinced that the majority want a secular society and the best that the west has to offer. We are not hated by everyone. Of the hundreds I talked to, the overwhelming majority thanked us for being there. Hundreds of adults and children on the roads waved and smiled as we passed by .

We went to the law school with about 300 students, about ten of whom were female. There we were, three Americans and they wanted us to fix their school and they thought we could. They thought Americans could do anything. They were like children expecting the genie from the bottle to immediately gratify their needs.

The law students were the finest example of hope that I encountered. They told me that the future was theirs and that they needed and wanted our help. I believe we should be paying more attention and giving greater effort to restoring higher education. These law students are the immediate future. When we met with them a week later, they had formed a protective association, a bus for transportation, found a disused grammar school for classes, and got their assistant dean to round up some professors who were teaching them. Still they need help and I am trying to get some help for
them from our law sch ools. LSU has refused, Seton Hall and Rutgers have promised to help; I have not contacted Tulane, Loyola or Southern yet.

Upon returning to Baghdad, I went to the Ministry of Justice to review the situation in the south. I took advantage of the situation and said the following: "I have read a little of your history. I know you are a proud people who have risen from the ashes in the past, so I must tell you that I am saddened and disappointed. I have talked to hundreds of you over the past five weeks, almost everyone educated and privileged. What I have heard is what you want from us, how the Americans have to fix this and give you money and equipment, protect you from you own. The only adults planning on the future were those law students in Basra who had lost everything - their books, their desks, their records, their school. And they were doing something about it on their own. You need to do some of these things for yourselves. If you are depending on us to do everything,
you are going to be sadly disappointed."

I got a few nods from the judges, but the translator said to me: "Thank you. I have been waiting for someone to tell them that."

Our soldiers, God love them and keep them; they smiled every time I got a chance to talk to them. They want to come home, but I did not hear one word of complaint nor a question as to why they were there. This is boring, HOT, dirty, and dangerous work. They stand in 120 plus degrees in full body armor. They are amazing. Their entertainment was largely self-generated; boredom doesn't stop when they stand down. Write a letter, send a note or email; send a book, cd, tape, or magazine; do something.

Thank you.

Pass it on to those who believe the BBC, Peter Jennings and the New York Times.
* * * * * * * * * *


PURE PROPAGANDA!! And pretty good, too. What do we do with this stuff?
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OKNancy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-03 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. Sounds made up to me
Edited on Tue Sep-02-03 09:34 AM by OKNancy
Did your mother actually go see this judge ( it's kind of hard to tell)or is she passing on something she got.

Just for the hell of it, I googled all over the place and didn't find one reference to Don Walters, a judge, going to Iraq. Sounds like a job for Snopes to me.

On edit: googled some more and there is no federal judge named Don Walters.
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-03 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. Found something here...
http://www.uscourts.gov/ttb/may03ttb/judges.html

I'm saying nothing about the speech he gave, but there apparently was a 90 day mission to Iraq with a bunch of legal types, one of which was a Don Walter from LA.

See the box at bottom of the page.

Sid
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OKNancy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-03 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Thought I was on to something there, but
looks like his name is Walter, not Walters.
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Athame Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #9
21. Very interesting article
Edited on Wed Sep-03-03 12:53 AM by MaRadix
Could be Don Walters (either the e-mail or the article could have misspelled his name) but the project doesn't sound at all the way it is described in his "speech."

on edit: I see that Richard Coughlin of New Jersey is also mentioned in the article, so it must be the same project. Great catch, Sid!
Though, I imagine there were criteria for the DoJ's selection of judges for the team.


A little off topic, I found this quote to be especially hard to take:

"They {the Iraqis} were very much intrigued by our system {of justice}," said Pro. "They clearly recognize the importance of an independent Judiciary, and that the separation of powers is fundamental to really ensuring their independent Judiciary." :grr:

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Athame Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #7
20. Thanks, Nancy
I posted that long thing and then had to get off to work. Wanted to Google the judge--mainly because telling second hand stories of thugs plucking the eyes out of 3-month-old babies didn't seem very jurisprudential (made up word). The whole thing just smelled like one of these right wing manufactured tear jerkers. And no, my mom was passing it along, but she sent it to me as proof that all my "internet news" is a crock and I should just be glad our wise leaders were able to see beyond the liberal lies. She didn't use those words, exactly, but you get the idea.

I already called her on the cell phone/static electricity gas station hysteria when she sent me that one last week, but I'm hesitant to go too far in calling my own mother a fool. :eyes:

The thing is, there are so MANY like her, who will read this stuff and accept it without a second thought. I truly don't know whether to throw up my hands and let it go or make an obnoxious nuisance of myself and keep putting every one of them down with facts.
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Kamika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-03 08:34 AM
Response to Original message
4. same here
I remember talking to my uncle, he asked me what i thought.. i said i didnt think saddam was a threat. But my uncle went on and on how saddam had nuclear weapons etc etc.. i love my uncle so i just left it at that. Never brought it up aftter that
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Plaid Adder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-03 08:50 AM
Response to Original message
5. Yeah, I get that feeling a lot these days.
Because the thing is that now, it is TOO FUCKING LATE.

Before, we had some control over the situation: we could decide not to go. Now, we're just screwed. We no longer have any way of determining the outcome. If we pull out, OK, no more American soldiers dead...until the civil war that is apparently brewing in Iraq mestastasizes to include the entire region and we end up back in there, with a draft, in a full-out World War III.

I hope for another outcome, but I just feel like what happens in Iraq now is no longer up to us. We can withdraw our troops, but we can't determine how long the conflict will go on or how far it will extend or what the consequences will be. Thanks to all the people who thought "Well, what the hell, there must be a good reason," we are screwed, Iraq is screwed, and no doubt many of the surrounding countries are screwed. It is too late to unscrew ourselves.

it's nice that people have figured out this war is bullshit; maybe they'll be less excited about signing on to the next one. But it is way, way too late.

Sigh,

The Plaid Adder
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-03 08:57 AM
Response to Original message
6. OH, F*** IT
I'M IN THESE PEOPLES' F***ING *FACES* ABOUT THIS SH**. I'M NOT ABOUT TO LET UP. PEOPLE ARE F***ING DYING BECAUSE THEY WERE SO EASILY FOOLED.
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Hamlette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-03 09:48 AM
Response to Original message
8. you don't need to say it
and it's better not to. When you have made a horrible mistake the lesson is very painful. You let them off the hook when you yell at them as they transfer their guilt and hatred of Bush to you for saying "I told you so."
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Solomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-03 10:46 AM
Response to Original message
12. I'm glad for you but unfortunately for me, the war has really screwed up
my family and my relationship with them. I do the same thing. I don't say anything about the war or Bush anymore because I don't want to rub it in. The strange thing now is though, when I'm around, which is increasingly rare now, they all bitch and moan about how bad Bush is screwing up. I don't say anything because if we start talking about it, ultimately an argument will spring up.

My family used to be liberal and I thought, generally level headed. However, just as the war got underway, they switched from a church we had been going to for 50 years, to a fundamentalist church. I went once and saw what was up and refused to go back. As a result of listening to this new pastor, they began to take positions I could not countenance. Positions such as "muslims are going to hell because they have no savior". "And human authority is divinely ordained so we have to support and pray for Bush". One sermon I heard on tape said that God is a god of war as well as a god of peace and compared Bush to David when God told David to go smite the elamites or some such group that was pissing God off. When I said Iraq had done nothing to us and what about "thou shall not steal and thou shall not kill"?, we were back to the "muslims are going to hell".

The fact that I would not follow the clan to this new church was a source of consternation to my family, and every chance they get, they nag nag nag about me not going to church. (I'm 48 years old mind you)

Things reached a head last easter and I left after a shouting match.
After that, I stopped saying anything around them. Yesterday we had a labor day get together and things went pretty smoothly until late in the evening. I continually ignored the bitching and moaning about Bush so as not to provoke anything. But then my dad asked me whether I thought they were going to put the ten commandments back in the courthouse. After saying "no" that's a done deal because they didn't belong in a courthouse in the first place, all hell broke loose. He complained about taking prayer out of the schools and I said nobody was stopping anybody from saying a prayer in schools. (I'm of the pray to yourself variety, not the force everyone to participate in group prayer). Then my mother, my sisters, their husbands, all jumped in. Needless to say, things got so bad that I slammed the back door as I left and embarrassingly broke some glass slats in the door. (I lost it when my sister told her husband to stop casting pearls before swine)

The whole period of Bush's administration has been terribly stressful on me, and I don't think I'm the only one. I think the whole country is suffering from collective stress as a result of Bush.

As far as I'm concerned, religion needs a complete overhaul in this country. It needs to evolve because it clearly ain't fitting the circumstances anymore. Its archaic and outdated for these times.
I can understand believing the bible is the word of god and contains no errors, if we were a couple of hundred years in the past, but anyone insisting on that in today's world is nuts.

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Butterflies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-03 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. Boy, can I relate!
My family is that way too, and I haven't seen them for 10 years. I got so tired of being the "sinner" that the last time I was kicked out of the family - I stayed gone. I made the decision to stay away when I was 30 years old because I could see that it wasn't going to change even though I had become an adult. Since your family has been fundamentalist for a short time, maybe there's hope that they will get over it. Good luck!
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-03 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
14. *whistle-ass
is such a uniter! Are we having fun yet?
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StandWatie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-03 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
15. I do a shitload of "I told you so"
Edited on Tue Sep-02-03 12:19 PM by StandWatie
They deserve it and much more. Their fear and hatred has killed thousands (hundreds of thousands if you count the sanctions) and if there is a hell they deserve to burn there.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-03 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
16. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
StandWatie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-03 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. bahahhah..
good name, wear it well..
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Atlant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 06:49 AM
Response to Reply #17
25. Apparently, he wore it out. (NT)
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Atlant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-03 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Don't you wish the tombstone...
Don't you wish the tombstone had a "birthday" and "deathday"
on it, preferably accurate down to the minute, so that you
could tell just how long some of these folks "lasted"?



Atlant
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proud patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 12:56 AM
Response to Original message
22. All us of who tried to stop it , know how you feel
The saddest part for me is the soilders . I remember them
thinking before the war the way home was through bagdad .
This is when they were sitting for months in Kuwait waiting.
How dare bush put them their to wait , making the war more
inevitable (sp?)
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Isome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 01:11 AM
Response to Original message
23. The more I know...
Edited on Wed Sep-03-03 01:13 AM by Isome
The less tolerant I am of those who don't want to know... anything. Before the war, my family got a good laugh from my participation in the anti-war effort -- marches, leafletting, petitions, etc.

During an email exchange among my sibliings & I, my brother even came out and said that "all wars are based on lies" so "why should this one be different". He's since gone to Iraq as one of those who help train Iraqi security.

My second oldest sister doesn't understand why I keep up with all of this "mess" -- her catchall term for politics. With regard to political awareness in general, she says that none of "them" are going to "do anything" for her, so she minds her own business. When I pointed out to her that her job situation (she was an MBA-holding call center manager at ADP) is a direct result of political machinations that allowed those jobs to be sent overseas, she quickly agreed but then moved on to something else. When I pressed her about local politics and the need to understand the referendums up for a vote, in her rapid-fire way of speaking she said that "you have to learn stuff for yourself" and that's why she "reads them" for the first time, while she's "in the voting booth".

It's not at all comforting to be around family members that just don't have a clue. On my more cynical days, I wish real hard that the wingnuts (the apathetic and the stupid, too) get the exact type of government they voted for. Then, when it all comes to crashing down around their ears I can get real smug and tell them, I told you so! But that's only on my bad days.
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copithorne Donating Member (551 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 01:48 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. What I would say to that email is...
I believe the president of the United States should pursue policies that are in the interests of the United States and this war has been a catastrophe for the United States. If George Bush wants to lead the Iraqi people, he should run for election there.
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