Is this too much to ask for??

[truhavoc]

All I want is a paper receipt for all forms of voting, including paper ballots. It struck me on tuesday when my mother in law who voted in her first election (immigrant from India) was upset when she didn't get something showing who she voted for, like she did in India. If India can do it, there is no reason that the US can not! The paper receipt solves most of the problems we saw in FL in 2000 and would solve the problems we are having this election with the opti-scans and touch screens.

please check out:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2631016&mesg_id=2631016

And help me out!

[Flagius]

1. OF COURSE IT IS!!!

How the hell else are they supposed to steal elections? Jeez...

[AndyTiedye]

2. THAT KIND of Paper Receipt Results in Intimidation and Vote Selling

[truhavoc]

5. Please help me figure this out...because it could come up!

In my efforts in OH to put this on the ballot...please be thorough and give me some justification. I want something that most people agree with...not something that people could call "intimidation and vote selling"

[AndyTiedye]

21. Not Being Able to Prove to Anyone Else Who You Voted For...

...means you can't sell your vote, and it means if your boss is a
"vote Repub or else" type, he can't intimidate his employees into
voting a particular way.

Paper ballots go in ballot boxes.

[truhavoc]

24. My answer to situations like this is....

to then raise the penalty for someone who attempted to buy or sell a vote. If your employer requires you to show them the receipt, you can fine them a year's salary and look for another job or something of the like. I refuse to let the ill deeds of some effect the entire plausability of a proposal.

[AndyTiedye]

28. That Wouldn't Stop It

If you have a system that makes vote-selling and intimidation easy,
it will happen. The penalties you proposed are probably less than
what current law provides for, and certainly wouldn't be much of a
disincentive.

A receipt you take with you is no protection against electoral fraud
anyway. The paper has to be in a ballot box where it can be counted.

[Thegonagle]

26. I agree; however. . .

I agree; however if there must be all-electronic voting with touch screens (in fact, there need not be; but I digress) then a paper back-up ballot, preferably scannable so as to not discourage recounting due to (hu)man-power issues, is 100%, without question, an absolute necessity. Even without foul play or ill-will, electronic technology can and does occasionally fail. That is why we make back-ups of our important computer files, and that is why we must make back-up copies of our ballots. I know from experience that optical scanners can also fail, but when they do, the result is a nuisance for election workers (most of whom are honest and dedicated to seeing every single vote counted regardless of politics), not a catastrophe for the voters.

[AndyTiedye]

27. That is a BALLOT not a RECEIPT

Electronic voting machines are fine, but they should produce a
paper ballot that goes into a ballot box.

There ARE systems that do that. PART OF Nevada has this,
and the elections in Venezuela have it.

We can even have preliminary results from the machines,
but count the paper anyway, just to keep everyone honest.

[lovedems]

3. I always think of my ATM card and when I go to the bank and withdraw

money I get a little piece of paper that has my account balance, the date, the time, the amount of money I withdrew and how much I have left.

It can't be that expensive nor that difficult for a printout the same size that has my votes on it. It is one of those, "it is so simple it is stupid" thingys.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

4. It's not that the U.S. can't do it, it is that they don't want to do it so

that they can successfully perpetrate fraudulent "elections". I mean, if you had an agenda as grand as these guys do... would you let us win fairly, or would you make sure we lost unfairly?? It really is quite simple... this is all by design and it does truly suck beyond anything else I can imagine. It paints us as nothing more than a banana republic.... through and through....

[truhavoc]

7. Then please help change it

If we realize there is a problem it is our duty to fix it...or am I being to damn utopian???

There are direct initiative measures in the state constitutions of many states that would allow us to put this stipulation in front of the voters...regardless of what the politicans may say about it.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

10. I am afraid all I can offer is to help keep things stirred in here for now

hopefully things will change for me financially speaking in the near future and I will be able to donate here and there to help push this forward, or at least help the people such as Bev Harris push it forward... life is sucking in shrub's economy.

[truhavoc]

13. I don't need money....only free time and effort

I just need help with the details...I will organize all the manpower locally and then expand it. I would never ask for money for something like this...I feel that if I am willing to volunteer my time, I can hopefully find others like me. If you could help with some of the research (internet only) it would be a TREMENDOUS help!! I am a poor college kid myself, paying my way through school...so as of now we are in the same boat!

[HysteryDiagnosis]

17. What would you have me to do?? I have peeelenty of time. n/t

[truhavoc]

20. Anything you are willing to help with

What I need is what is listed in my original post (link above). I really need to find out what the cost would be for the options we are all discussing. The legislatures are not going to listen to a thing, and essentially blow us off if we don't have an estimate of the overall cost. I would have to say a lot of the options have to be somewhat cheaper than the current setup.

[GRLMGC]

6. Yes! It is !

How dare you you request proof that you're civil right has been respected? Who do you think you are?

[zmdem]

8. It's a bigger problem than a receipt

Say the voting machine is rigged, you vote for Kerry, but the machine registers it for Bush. You get a receipt showing you voted for Kerry.

IMHO, the actual vote should be a real paper/pasteboard ballot that the voter can look at and see a hole or checkmark next to the chosen candidate. In otherwords, a manual recount is possible.

[truhavoc]

11. I would agree...and I would be interested in considering that

for my direct initiative. The problem is the human cost for counting..how many of us would be willing to volunteer to count paper ballots. I know I would for the guarantee of a fair result. I think all ballots should also be numbered so that if one is missing you know something is wrong.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

16. Imagine if it was done "sanely" you only have a ballot something like

a time card... with a choice of presidential candidates on it.

Let's say there are 4 choices. You put it in a machine and it knocks out a big gaping hole over the name of the candidate of your choosing.

Now... let's go one step further... THE CARD IS MULTILAYERED. Two layers to be exact. You keep one... the govt keeps the other. The machine tabs your vote when the card is punched, end of story.

Now... you have a receipt, the govt has a receipt, and the machine counts the votes. Recount anytime you like, it's your option.

Put all the other candidates on another ticket... or just do them electronically whatever... but for the single most important choice facing the country... card ballots, nothing more, nothing less. We are paying for the freakin elections... we should say how they are to be accomplished.

If that is too complex a concept for the people in power... then get India's system... I hear it is effective and tamperproof... then again.. why would we want anything like that in a country full of banana republicans.

http://www.indian-elections.com/electionfaqs/electronic-voting-machines.html
Q10. In our country a sizeable section of the population being illiterate will it not cause problems for the illiterate voters?

Ans. In fact, voting by EVMs is simpler compared to the conventional system, where one has to put the voting mark on or near the symbol of the candidate of his choice, fold it first vertically and then horizontally and thereafter put it into the ballot box. In EVMs, the voter has to simply press the blue button against the candidate and symbol of his choice and the vote is recorded. Rural and illiterate people had no difficulty in recording their votes and, in fact they have welcomed the use of EVMs.

[zmdem]

18. Manual counting not a big problem

Where the ballots are easily read by a human as to the vote, any fraud attempt becomes much more dangerous to do, i.e., the chance of getting caught is high, hence less likely to happen. Plus we would not be talking manual recounts in every precinct in the country, only those where the votes in the contested precincts could change the state wide result.

It makes little difference if there was some vote fraud in Wyoming for Bush, as he won the state overwhelmingly - a few thousand fraudulent Bush votes doesn't change WY's electoral college results.

[GregD]

9. well, according to 151 congresscritters, it is not

Over the past 18 months, Rush Holt tried to get HR2239 passed. He had the support of a TON of activists who pushed it. Out of 151 cosponsors, 7 were Repubilcans.

Robert Ney (OH-R) blocked the bill from leaving the House Administration Committee.

So according the R's, yes, your request is completely and entirely out of line.

Next question?

[truhavoc]

12. I need to get in touch with him..he is from my state!

Hopefully he could help on the local level via direct initiative.

[PoiBoy]

14. Let's start our own company...

..to compete with Diebold, ES&S and Sequoia...

TruVote was a highly acclaimed company, founded with a simple honest mission of providing a true and accurate count of our votes. Since the founder of the company was killed in a car crash, the company is in limbo of sorts, looking for a President and investors.

The technology is there, the product is developed. Is it an opportunity for an end run around the repug steal the vote machine?

from March 2004:
http://www.tennessean.com/business/archives/04/03/48811616.shtml

from October 2004:
http://www.tennessean.com/business/archives/04/09/60549101.shtml

We Progressives have raised money for Howard Dean, Wes Clark, John Kerry, MoveOn PAC, and now BlackBoxVoting.Org. I'd like to think that we the people, a Progressive investor, or both can help out this company before it gets bought out and buried deep by the repug money machine.

Having an honest, reliable and verifiable alternative to immediately offer our legislators and our communities can only help the cause, IMO...

Your thoughts?

[truhavoc]

15. I think you are on the right track

however I remain skeptical about the e-voting machines...regardless. I want this to be something that both sides of the aisle want to accept..not something to divide us because it is a "progressive company". I would even like to require exclusively paper ballots that are numbered so that they cannot be discarded without documentation for each one. There are a number of things we can do, but the major problems are making sure we voted for who we meant to vote for, and then making sure that vote is counted and especially counted the proper number of times (1!!!).

[PoiBoy]

19. It seems to me that e-voting is here to stay..

and we seem to be divided already because we all know that Diebold, ES&S, and Sequoia are openly repug, and are committed by words and actions to support their party of choice. I think we will have to live with the labels of Progressive, Liberal and Repug for the next several decades... :-) But that shouldn't stop us...

I found this in another article on the TruVote system:

http://www.technologycouncil.com/news.ez?viewStory=701

<snip>
Sterling offers his view of TruVote's advantage: "The TruVote system offers a voter-verifiable paper ballot that is printed under glass. The voter does not get to handle the paper ballot. The system allows the voter to verify the information on the paper ballot before the vote is actually cast. As such, we always have an independent paper audit trail for manual recounts. In addition, a second (optional) take-home receipt is printed that allows the voter to verify that their vote was indeed received, recorded and counted as intended. In addition, the TruVote system offers a state-of-the-art ADA interface allowing a voter to vote using voice recognition, numeric keypad or a touchscreen interface, all with an audio ballot. Setting up an election is extremely easy with the integrated ballot creation tools which come standard with the system."
<end>

IMO, a lot depends on exactly what is contained in the second (optional) take-home receipt "making sure we voted for who we meant to vote for, and then making sure that vote is counted and especially counted the proper number of times (1!!!)". I couldn't agree with you more...

Like you, I demand a verified and accountable audit trail, and stronger criminal penalties for voter intimidation and suppression tactics that we've seen in play since 2000. We have the momentum in every part of our country to put verified ballot initiatives and anti-voter intimidation legislation on the ballot for next year's election cycle. But we must move quickly and decisively.

Thank you for your thoughts! :hi:

[Borgnine]

22. The GOP is just thinking about the environment, after all.

Paper receipts would mean more trees have to be cut down, and Republicans love Mother Nature too much to take that step.

[truhavoc]

23. I would go out of my way to require 100% post consumer recycled

paper to be used...just for the GOP lol

[Eric J in MN]

25. You can check the plans of each STATE with the

STATE dropdown on the left of:
www.verifiedvoting.org

Ohio and California will have verified-voter-paper-ballots in 2006.