DAMN IT.. I was hoping to NOT find this: Old Testament, Leviticus 18:22

[PotatoBoy]

"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."

There goes any arguments I could use against fundies..using the Bible. :( I can't just tell them "well, the Old Testament is bullshit."

[burythehatchet]

1. So I guess they can begin stoning morality criminals to death

excellent

[Tesibria]

37. interestingly ...

.. the OT punishment for men WAS stoning, but this punishmen tdid not apply to women.

go figure.

------------------
"Rage" store: www.cafepress.com/tesibria.com
blog: www.democracyiscoming.com (explains purpose of rage store)

[truthpusher]

54. Engage in as much homosexual sex as possible!! Here's why:

Next time some idiot brings this passage up - tell them that you proudly engage in as much homosexual sex as humanly possible, and here's why:

Leviticus 18:22 states: "Thou shall not lie with mankind as with womankind: it is abomination." The term abomination (to'ebah) is a religious term, usually reserved for use against idolatry; it does not mean a moral evil. The verse seems to refer to temple prostitution, which was a common practice in the rest of the Middle East at that time. Qadesh referred to male religious prostitutes. (See the discussion of Deuteronomy)

Leviticus 20:13 states: "If a man also lie with mankind as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they should surely be put to death....". The passage is surrounded by prohibitions against incest, bestiality, adultery and intercourse during a woman's period. But this verse is the only one in the series which uses the religious term abomination; it seems also to be directed against temple prostitution.

These passages are part of the Jewish Holiness Code which also:

permits polygamy
prohibits sexual intercourse when a woman has her period,
bans tattoos
prohibits eating rare meat
bans wearing clothes that are made from a blend of textiles
prohibits cross-breeding livestock
bans sowing a field with mixed seed
prohibits eating pigs, rabbits, or some forms of seafood
requires Saturday to be reserved as the Sabbath

Churches have abandoned the Holiness Code; it is no longer binding on modern-day Christians. They can wear tattoos, eat shrimp, wear polyester-cotton blends and engage in temple prostitution without violating this particular section of the Bible. Although this code is obsolete for Christians, many clergy still focus on those passages which deal with homosexuality.<1>

I got this from Whosoever.org http://www.whosoever.org/bible/lev18.html

[Lizzie Borden]

2. Why?

IMO most of it is.

[DemBones DemBones]

Presumably, he had hoped to find arguments in

the Bible to use against right wing Christians. That verse will not not help him, no matter what your opinion is, as they believe in literal interpretation of the Bible, not in your opinion.

[kikiek]

3. Quote a couple more..like the one about planting crops and wearing

different fabrics.

[Boomer]

4. You might want to remember...

...that Christians are supposed to refer to the New Testament.

[seaj11]

17. Supposed to, but fundies don't.

They pick the rules they like out of Leviticus (the law-book of the ancient Hebrews). kikiek, you could also note that Leviticus also forbids the eating of shellfish. I'll bet these anti-gay fundies don't deny themselves oysters and clams.

[ignatius 2]

35. I believe there is a pasage in the old testemant that demands a woman

to be virgin on her wedding night or she shall be killed. Wouldn't be too many of we females left if that comes to pass.

[seraph]

5. Read "Revelations"

* is the fucking anti-christ.

[autorank]

25. Thought Scott Biao is the anti-christ. According to Bob Cat.

[Cyrix]

6. Yes...

I'm sure you JUST found this...

[PotatoBoy]

50. Yes, actually I did.. why don't you openly accuse me of something?

Step off. I'm 100% honesty, no games, no implications..I say what I mean. I was looking through the Bible for something saying that gays are an abomination, and I found it in Leviticus. What is your point exactly?

[Cyrix]

59. My point

is that this has been a right wing favorite for YEARS. How odd you've never heard this quote before. I've never read the bible in my life and even *I* know this one.

[Career Prole]

56. Struck me the same way.

My eyebrow is cynically raised.

[okasha]

7. Don't give up

What this passage actually, literally, says is: "You shall not lie with a man in a woman's bed. It is a ritual impurity."

Now, this may be a metaphor for man-to-man sex in general, but if it is, it is neither more nor less serious an offense than wearing clothing made out of two different fibers, which is also a "ritual impurity"--"to'evah." If this were to be taken seriously, all wearers of cotton-poly blends would be headed straight for hell.

On the other hand, it may simply be a practical admonition not to have sex with your boyfriend in your wife's bed. Very uncool.

Edited to add: It may also reflect early Jewish notions of female uncleaness. In the OT, Laban cannot recover his household gods' images because his daughter Rachel is sitting on them.

Okasha

[carnicat]

8. It's simple.

Just point to all the passages in Leviticus that they ignore. Like the one that prohibits wearing clothes made from more than one fabric, the one that prohibits eating meat from "unclean" animals, the one that says that kids that disrespect their parents are to be stoned to death, etc.

Why choose that particular one to obey?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

9. But it's also an abomination

to eat milk and meat at the same meal. So tell the fundies to kiss cheeseburgers goodbye.

Check what else is "an abomination" and put it in context.

[Locrian]

10. big deal, it also says a bunch of other crap

from www.evilbible.com



Sexism is quite rampant in the Torah, considering the Hebrews were once a very chauvinistic society when it was written. As a feminist, I find it my duty to site the following verses and remind fellow women of the sexist pig they are told to worship. I can not possibly list all of the injustices that the Torah mentions. Everything from the story of Lilith (who was booted out of Eden for having dominant sex with Adam) to how women are blamed for the fall from grace. I had to settle for merely presenting a sample list as of right now and I shall add more verses as I thumb threw the Pentateuch a second time. In the mean while, please feel free to utilize anything you see here.

Genesis 3:16 Says that all women must suffer great pains during child birth due to Eve eating the fruit of knowledge. (As if it is somehow just that humans should pay for their ancestor’s sins nor is a woman dying in labor some how befitting of a crime she did not commit.) The verse finishes of by saying a husband shall “rule” over his woman, stripping us off all power in between the sexes.

Genesis 19:8 Tells of a man named Lot who offers his daughters to a crowd of would be angel rapers. Later, Lot impregnates his own daughters after God kills his wife for simply looking back at the remains of her city.

Genesis 38:16-24 Tells a very interesting story of a man named Judah whom lived with his widowed daughter in law. His daughter in law was grieving and wearing the veils of mourning which Judah (a rather stupid man) mistook for the clothing of a prostitute. He ended up impregnating his daughter in law and she left the city. On a later date Judah sees the young woman again and demanded she be burned for being a prostitute (I like how only the woman is punished when THEY BOTH engaged in the sexual act). It wasn’t until Judah recognized the woman as his daughter in law and she was with his child, that he decided not to kill her. Basically, Judah can commit incest, use a prostitute (in his mistaken perception), and impregnate a MUCH younger woman, yet he thinks she is the one deserving of death.

Exodus 21:3-4 Says that if a male slave is given a wife by his master (regardless of how long they are wed, how much they love each other or if they have kids) he can not leave servanthood with his wife or children. The woman and children are merely property of the master and their personal happiness or sanctity of family doesn’t matter.

Exodus 21:7 God not only sanctions selling ones daughter into slavery, but he also gives out laws on how it should be done.

Exodus 21:10 God ordains men taking several wives and even sets up laws as to how multiple wives should be handled.

Leviticus 12:1-8 Explains that a woman has to be purified after giving birth because she is “unclean”. It goes on to say that birthing a male is cleaner then birthing a female, hence a mother must purify TWICE as long when having a daughter. This is BLATANT sexism from the point of birth. A woman is dirty simply for being a woman; this is obviously very biased and chauvinistic.

Leviticus 15:19-30 Explains that a woman having her menstruation must be avoided to the point of not even touching what she has touched. It is quite curious that women are punished for simply having a biological function that “God” claims to have created. What is so just about vilifying what you created?

Leviticus 18:19 Goes onto say that even LOOKING at a menstruating woman is wrong.

Leviticus 19:20 Says that if a man has sex with a slave or betrothed woman he must then “scourge” her. Scourging is a term for a severe flogging or whipping. I find it quite curious that the woman shall be punished to the point of a beating for such an occurrence, yet the man gets to go free for the deed.

Leviticus 21:9 Explains that unchaste daughters of priests must be burnt to death. What about his unchaste sons? Of course this isn’t even answered in the Torah, we are to assume yet again that men have the power to do as they wish and a woman must suffer the punishment for BOTH of them.

Leviticus 27:3-7 God places a dollar value on human life; with women worth less than men.

Numbers 1:2 Is the basis for the sexism that remains rampant today. In this verse Moses takes a poll of all the men who are able to fight in war, women aren’t even counted in the census. Apparently back then, just like today, us women are considered the weaker species and unable to battle. (Let’s not forget that during the time the Pentateuch was written women in Pagan cultures were FEARED and revered as the more powerful species. It is because of this patriarchal religion and it’s offshoots that we have been reduced to cowering sub-humans.)

Numbers 30:3-16 A woman can’t make a vow unless her husband allows it.

Numbers 31: 14-18 Moses tells his men to kill all the males, non-virginal women, elderly and children of the Midianite tribe. Of course, the virgin women are kept for raping. Ifyou read later down in the scripture God states that the Jews can not even marry a midianite woman (with exception to Moses). Hence these women who were captured were repeatedly raped and impregnated and they weren’t even allowed a marrital status in which to protect them.

Deuteronomy 20:13-15 Kill all the men and boys in the cities that God “delivers into your hands,” but keep the women for raping.

Deuteronomy 21:11-14 If you see a pretty woman among the captives then just take her home and “go in unto her.”

Deuteronomy 22:5 Women that wear men’s clothing are an “abomination unto the Lord.”

Deuteronomy 22:13-22 Women, be sure to keep the tokens of your virginity. Otherwise the men of your city may stone you to death. This does not apply to men though, of course. What is interesting to note here is the actual wording, it says : “that if a man hateth his wife he may say she did not have the tokens of her virginity”. Since there is no way a woman can truly prove she had a hymen upon marriage the word rests on the husband and she can be disposed of simply when he tires of her.

Deuteronomy 22:23-24 is one of the most cruel and sexist passages of the Torah. It says that women who are raped and fail to “cry out loud” in a populated area are most likely enjoying the attack should be killed.

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 A rapist must buy his victim from her father for 50 shekels. Is this supposed to be some type of retribution? What about the victim here, what if she doesn’t want to marry a pig who raped her? All that matters is her father receives payment for his “property”.

Deuteronomy 25:11-12 Says that we must cut off a woman’s hand if she touches the “secrets” of a man who is fighting with her husband…“And thine eye shall not pity her.” Once again, there is no punishment for the man she touched, only the woman.

[seaj11]

47. Thanks for that list.

Always good to be able to point to blatantly un-Christ-like messages in
"The Word of God" to fundies.

[TXDemGal]

11. The Old Testament

is the old law. Where in the New Testament did Christ say ONE WORD about homosexuality? He didn't.

These fundie fucks are eye-for-eye zealots. They are not Christians.

To paraphrase Woody Allen's character Frederick in "Hannah and Her Sisters":

"If Jesus Christ were alive today and saw what was being done in his name...He would never stop throwing up."

[Alex146]

The old testment also says you can sell your daughter into slavery

and be excuted for planting the wrong kind of crops. Whip that out on them and watch them crash and burn.

[NMDemDist2]

12. read the rest of leviticus and this lovely letter

Dear Dr. Laura,

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord 9Lev 1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?

i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16 Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help.

Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your devoted disciple and adoring fan.

edit to add link http://www-users.cs.york.ac.uk/~susan/joke/laura.htm

[patdem]

45. AZDemDist6, bransonfu and I all posted the same thing at the same

time...like we believe this person is really 'learning' the bible...yeach reicht..i think we have a fundy who thinks he/she can convert all us heathens?? Ya think?

[mongo]

13. Check out godhatesshrimp.com

And when someone tells you that homosexuallity is an abomination, tell them that you fundies pick and chose what you listen to in the bible anyway.

[PretzelWarrior]

14. WELLLLL noww....maybe they should explain THIS TO YOU

Dear Anonymous Evangelical:
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from you, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly
states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to follow them.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1 ). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21 . In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an
abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die?

i) I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev.24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

[PretzelWarrior]

24. ^^^^^^show THIS to fundies. let them stammer their thoughts^^^^^

x

[rockydem]

29. Yep - that's how you answer them!!!!!

Also remember what Jesus said - Judge not lest ye be judged.

[Spiffarino]

55. This should be in everyone's arsenal

The first time I saw it was as a response to "Dr." Laura Schlesinger. It's a classic. Thanks for bringing it to DU.

:yourock:

[idiosyncratic]

15. That is just one law they took out of context.

There are many, many others that they don't adhere to.

Why are they stuck on that particular one?

[teach1st]

16. Kill them rebellious kids, too...

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear. - Deuteronomy 21:18-21

[autorank]

18. Read the four gospels only, New Testament

Then read something about the Book of Q, the consensus sayings of Jesus from the three synoptic gospels. The Old Testament, the letters etc. are not Jesus. Of course, the New Testament is a radical social gospel so the fundies have to dig deep in other areas to justify their inhumanity.

Corporate America controls the media and we get manufactured news.
Corporate America now controls the voting machines and we get manufactured elections.

http://www.blackboxvoting.org/

[tjdee]

19. Yes you could-- Jesus came to start/be a new convenant, and he didn't say

anything about gay folks as I can remember.

Jesus basically nullified the Old Testament. That's part of the reason Christians aren't Jews. So, why fundies rely so heavily on it is anyone's guess.

[seabeyond]

20. it also says no shell fish or divorce

point one

second. we are to listen to jesus. the old testament was of rules, jesus is the way to live. the only time homosexuality came up with jesus i believe, a roman soldier came to him to ask him to heal his boy. boys were known to take care of all the romans needs including sexually. jesus went with him and healed the boy. doesnt sound to me like jesus is rejecting the homosexual. further

you will find in paul that he mentions the homosexual is sin, but also on divorce. he is way way way tougher on divorce

[ismnotwasm]

21. My friend,

Read Leviticus entire, and you will find several "abominations" that fundies have conveniently ignored. No eating shrimp, for instance. I'll leave to more experienced bible persons to site verse and chapter. The Bible is a BIG book.

[Amaya]

22. Well, then if they wanna go by the old Testament

go by ALL of it. Lets see, adultery is a crime and punishment is to be stoned to death.
Also, they must make animal sacrifices(this was a very strict law).

That was off the top of my head... I'll think of some more in a minute.

[ismnotwasm]

31. And, remember the one about if your son is a drunkard

and a lecher (Can't remember if it's both, or one, or more) he's to be taken before the city elders, and if he doesn't change his ways, he's to be taken outside the city and be stoned to death
Edit: Covered much better by above posters!!!

[patdem]

23. Here you go...you hypocrite...check out these facts about the bible

an open letter to Dr. Laura
J. Kent Ashcraft
May 2000
Dear Dr. Laura,

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?

i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help.

Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your devoted disciple and adoring fan.

[morcatknits]

44. It's a matter of context

There are a lot of admonisions in the Bible that are not appropriate to modern times, some of them are listed above. Some observant Jews still take the food rules as a matter of religion, but they were clearly meant for primitive times.

The issue of homosexuality is one of such magnitued that there isn't one recorded word on it from Jesus. That tells me how I should think about it.

Not everything in the Bible is intended to be a good example, there are plenty of bad ones, and one thing to remember is that King David, guilty of all sorts of moral wrongs, was still "A man after God's own heart." Evidently, God doesn't hold out for perfection.
morcatknits

[Deja Q]

26. More crisp, delightful Bible quotes here

http://home.sprynet.com/~owl1/biblequotes.htm

:wow:

[teach1st]

27. We've got to out-Bible the Bible Thumpers...

...whenever they use scripture to tell us how immoral something is, we've got to insist that they adhere to the entire Biblical code or they are nothing but blasphemers.

[realisticphish]

28. you can just tell them

that the new covenent with Christ trumps the old one, and he didnt say shit about homosexuality. ask if they want to follow the same laws as judaism, maybe thatll make them stop and think. it probably wont work, but its worth a try :shrug:

:hippie: The Incorrigible Democrat

[tjdee]

34. I just said that....

great minds and all that.

I mean, if they are so in love with the Old Testament, maybe they should convert to Judaism.

[Red_Viking]

30. Read the rest of Leviticus!

It's some freaky-freaky stuff.

If your Christian Taliban buddies want to use that as an argument, you have plenty of ammo. They can't have their selective morality. If they plan to live by the Old Testament, they better plan to marry their brother's wives, stone disobedient children, never touch a menstruating woman, never wear mixed fibers, never eat shellfish, and make their regular burnt offerings. Slavery and genocide were OK, too, by the way.

I choose not to participate in organized religion any more, but I grew up Presbyterian. I remember sermons where the minister talked about putting aside the old "fire and brimstone" version of God when Christ came. Christ accepted all that came before Him but He brought a new message. And, remember what He said about the Ten Commandments...

Master, which is the greatest commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."
Matthew 22: 36-40

And, by the way, Jesus never said "boo" about homosexuality.


RV

[roguevalley]

32. simple indeed: The New Testament is the book for Christians.

The Old Testament is the story of the Jewish people. Tell them that as a Christian, you are bound by the teachings of your rabbi, Jesus. He had nothing to say about it and therefore its irrelevent to your life. Since the square heads are only interested in Jews to convert them, then their teachings are irrelevent. Only Jesus counts to them. D isn't in the new testament. If they are so interested and reverent of the Old Testament, then what about the Holocaust and Inquisition and all the rest. How can you reverence their history and their testament and kill them?

Or, you could tell them to fuck off. :evilgrin:

[shamrock]

33. try this

I'm not trying to give a sermon here (just in case), but the following verses expand on the laws of the Old Testament. We can't be saved by simply following the "laws". Everything changed after Jesus came and gave his life for us. Please don't try to find your answers in the Old Testament. We are Chrisians because we follow the Christ (Jesus) of the New Testament. We are saved by the grace of God, because we can't do it by ourselves. And he loves us ALL and we are all sinners.

Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

[bowens43]

Sure you can. I tell them that all the time .

[KitSileya]

36. While I know the original has been posted at least twice on this thread,

I figure, once more doesn't hurt. It's from the West Wing -


President Josiah Bartlet : Good. I like your show. I like how you call homosexuality an abomination.
Dr. Jenna Jacobs : I don't say homosexuality is an abomination, Mr. President. The Bible does.
President Josiah Bartlet : Yes it does. Leviticus.
Dr. Jenna Jacobs : 18:22.
President Josiah Bartlet : Chapter and verse. I wanted to ask you a couple of questions while I have you here. I'm interested in selling my youngest daughter into slavery as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. She's a Georgetown sophomore, speaks fluent Italian, always cleared the table when it was her turn. What would a good price for her be? While thinking about that, can I ask another? My Chief of Staff Leo McGarry insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly says he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself or is it okay to call the police? Here's one that's really important because we've got a lot of sports fans in this town: touching the skin of a dead pig makes one unclean. Leviticus 11:7. If they promise to wear gloves, can the Washington Redskins still play football? Can Notre Dame? Can West Point? Does the whole town really have to be together to stone my brother John for planting different crops side by side? Can I burn my mother in a small family gathering for wearing garments made from two different threads? Think about those questions, would you? One last thing: while you may be mistaking this for your monthly meeting of the Ignorant Tight-Ass Club, in this building, when the President stands, nobody sits.

[Cleita]

38. There are other things in the Old Testament as well.

Like when Lot offers his virgin daughters to the mob, when he knows that the destruction of Sodom and Gommorah is imminent, who wanted to have relations with his male angel visitors. Apparently, rape of women wasn't as bad as rape of men being that this was the wickedness they committed that God had decided to destroy them. Hence our word sodomy.

The ancient Hebrews were quite conservative really. It didn't make them right.

[Amaya]

49. The old testament is full of raping

and killing women. Killing enemies of Israel and so forth. The old testament is hard core violence. I've read it from cover to cover. It ain't pretty folks.

Please....no offense to anyone who believe in this. I respect that. Just don't ask me to believe in it.

[Cleita]

61. Me too.

I find it interesting as the written culture of a people who actually really were trying to find the right path. That's why there is so much contradictory stuff in it and so much beautiful stuff in it, as well as the ugly, but you can't really use it as a guide to be obeyed without question.

[2Design]

39. that was so the fundies would stop fuc* ing animals - after that

they just used their kids or became priest and used altar boys

[Mandate My Ass]

40. Oh please give your stinking trolling a rest

Or not. The thread ignore feature will be back on again soon (I hope) and you and your raging homophobia will be so much cybersewage flushed down the digital toilet.

[Cyrix]

43. Good to know

I'm not the only one who saw through this.

[Mandate My Ass]

53. It has been all day long, one homophobic thread after another

I see the spud can't even be bothered to post on his flamebait thread.

Typical troll behavior, drop a stinkbomb and then run and hide.

[PotatoBoy]

You didn't see through shit

I am completely honest and sincere in everything I do. So go to hell.

[Spiffarino]

60. You're not

This jerkoff has been doing it for months. I don't know why the mods aren't on to him.

[Bluebear]

64. Oh you're not

Pllllleeeeease help me, I need to talk to fundies, PLEASE give me Bible verses! Oh I will have to study it on my own to find the truth. Oh DARN, I just "found" a pesky verse. Ha ha ha ha.

[American Tragedy]

41. Keep reading

Leviticus is the one they tend to skip over in Bible study groups for new converts that they're trying to not scare away. They quote it when it suits the argument, but most Christians are very uncomfortable when you really delve into it.

[Cyrix]

42. So pathetic

I don't GIVE A DAMN what their bible says.

There is a VERY good reason the founders seperated church and state - and THIS is it.

I swear to god I am starting to understand why the founders didn't trust the masses to directly elect senators and the president.

If you are voting with your bible (to elect OTHER people that will also vote with their bible) instead of current issues then something is SERIOUSLY wrong with the system.

Screw these idiots.

[leftofthedial]

46. and don't forget to crusade against shellfish and eating pork

also abominations in the same book.

[erniesam]

48. Hey, potatoboy the dominionist strain a gnat

and choke on a camel. As the bodies pile up in Iraq the stench of the sepulcher rises off all of the dominionist hypocrites.

[LTRS]

Oh please - fundies pick and choose their way

through the bible. Are they also going to sacrafice their kids on the alter, grow long beards, make women cover their heads, not eat pork, stone people to death for theft, poke people's eyes out, only have sex for procreation, and on and on and on? No, not hardly. But they will find one sentance in there that allows them to justify to themselves their hatred of gays and lesbians.

Hypocrite, they name is Christian fundie!

[mzmolly]

51. Not only do I doubt your sincerity, your wrong about not being able to

challenge them:

Some liberal Christian Interpretations: Some English translations of this passage condemn both gay and lesbian sexual relationships. This is a mistranslation. It refers only to male-male sexual behavior.

* This passage does not refer to gay sex generally, but only to a specific form of homosexual prostitution in Pagan temples. Much of Leviticus deals with the Holiness Code which outlined ways in which the ancient Hebrews were to be set apart to God. Some fertility worship practices found in nearly Pagan cultures were specifically prohibited; ritual same-sex behavior in Pagan temples was one such practice.

* The status of women in ancient Hebrew culture was very much lower than that of a man and barely above that of children and slaves. When a man engaged in sexual intercourse with a woman, he always took a dominant position, as a penetrator; the woman would take a submissive posture. When two men engage in sexual intercourse, one of the men, in effect, takes the role of a woman. When a man takes on the low status of a woman, the act makes both ritually impure.

* Many would regard "abomination," "enormous sin", etc. as particularly poor translations of the original Hebrew word which really means "ritually unclean" within an ancient Israelite era. The Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Scriptures (circa 3rd century BCE) translated "to'ebah " into Greek as "bdelygma," which meant ritual impurity. If the writer(s) of Leviticus had wished to refer to a moral violation, a sin, he would have used the Hebrew word "zimah."

* This verse says nothing about consensual same-sex activity today. It only condemns same-sex religious prostitution.

...

Read on:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibl.htm

Cheers.

[Hunter_1253]

52. It also tells you...

"Can you not realize that the unholy will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Do not deceive yourselves: no fornicators, idolaters, or adulterers, no sodomites, thieves, misers, or drunkards, no slanderers or robbers will inherit God's Kingdom" (1 Cor. 6:9-10).

I believe even Chimpy the boy King fits drunkard, thief, slanderer, and robber.

Crashcart fits miser for sure.


My personal favorite to smack the fundies with is and will always be "Judge not, lest ye be judged"...stick their morals where they hurt.

[Sin]

57. here you go Fun facts

They dont want you to read.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ :)

[sweetheart]

58. So its wrong to lie... and bush should be tried and hung

I agree, lying is bad with both men and women... tell the truth
and walk with god.

Keep in mind, that the bible was edited for 500 years after christ
died, and not even written during his lifetime... nor does it include
material from other witnesses of christ's life, that disagree with
the account the catholic church used to repress and divide for
1000 years.

Here is a book edited out of the bible, by one of christ's original
scribes: http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/gop.html

[Dookus]

62. of course you can tell them

the Old Testament is bullshit. Why not?

Read ALL of leviticus - tell me how many of those "rules" are followed today.

And by the way, the New Testament is bullshit, too.

[DemBones DemBones]

63. Although the replies about prohibitions against shellfish

and against wearing mixed fibers are all correct, it is next to impossible to get fundamentalists and other Bible literalists to give an inch on their beliefs. They can and do take note of the prohibition against a man lying with other men and ignore the dietary and clothing taboos. The "Christian" Reconstructionists and Dominionists want to take over our country and institute a theocracy in which adulterers and homosexuals would be put to death by stoning. We really need to worry about them and try to prevent too many people from joining them.

It is better to use the New Testament and talk about what Jesus commanded. Still, they are trained in their churches as to what Jesus said and have rarely, if ever, questioned the church's version of what Jesus taught. If you can encourage them to read for themselves and make their own interpretations, it would help. Otherwise, you are just arguing a position opposite to that of their leaders so their eyes glaze over and their ears close up.

[Siyahamba]

65. If you're gay you lie differently with men than you lie with women, right?

:shrug:

[Thtwudbeme]

66. How sad that your mind has not been able

to evolve from 4,500 years ago...or so.

When you are actually interested in the Old Testament, I suggest that you head over to your local college and take a class. Learn something as opposed to picking out one small part and then using it to hurt and hate an entire group of people

Fear and ignorance based hatred is pretty bad.