I am mad at Democrats who feel that they have the right to

[saracat]

demand that we renounce our liberal values. I am angry that they demand that we see the election as a message to pander to the moderates and think they have the right to dismiss any other opinion. I do not agree with the DLC or the DNc. We lost because of them not because of the liberals. I am a liberal who feels we were not liberal enough and I refuse to be patronized. Anybody with me? And BTW, all of us who feel that the election was stolen, based on the emerging evidence, are not all wearing tinfoil hats. We deserve some respect for our opinions too.

[DELUSIONAL]

1. Yep -- kick

[w13rd0]

2. The Democratic party...

...is seen, by much of the us pop, as "wishy-washy" and "unprincipled" because the DLC types and Dem bigwigs have been chasing a line in the sand that the right-wing SWEARS is "the middle". And everytime these clowns move toward that line, the GOP just steps back a foot or two, and draws a new one. As a result, these tutu wearing tortoises keep lurching away from principles, thus giving boneheads like Bush the opportunity to say "they'll say anything to get elected", because, frankly, it looks to be true. They'll abandon the base, "re-image" their principles, to get elected, and that's f'd up.

[Paxdora]

26. The Bau-Wau Party Needs to Be Purged or Die

The Democratic Party has clearly been demonstrating for a long time that it's not the political party of The People anymore. Have liberals and progressives become so deaf and blind that they must hang on to anything that is remotely familiar just to maintain a semblance of security?

The damned Dems will neither satisfy nor represent the majority of its taken-for-granted base as long as the leadership of entrenched high priests and gurus continue to worship at the altar of their ideological deity, Bau-Wau (business-as-usual, war-as-usual). If you are a Bau-Wau follower, you are in the proper temple.

If you're not into BAU-WAUism, it's time to pack up your deepest ideals and hit the higher road - step out and away from that hallowed 'pragmatic' road that inevitably steers all traffic to the Big C's of Corruption: Capitulation, Collusion, Collaboration, Cronyism, Crass Comfort and Cretinous Conformity. Find and join a congregation that matches your conscience and political goals.

OR, you can start planning for a counter-usurpation - the high priests and gurus of Bau-Wau, the original usurpers that seized control of The People's Democratic Party, must be deposed from their lofty thrones, by every means necessary, immediately if not sooner. IF successful, the gates of The People's temple (working for a true Democratic Republic that scorns Bau-Wau) can finally be flung open to embrace all Greens, Independents, Progressives, small "L" libertarians, and any other compatible political persuasion that despises the Duopolist parties' Corporatist suppression of We The People.

Internal Catharsis and Exorcism (purging) of Bau-Wau worship is the only thing that would restore The People's party to its former aims. Splintering or dividing up into smaller and smaller congregations would sound the death-knell of a strong democracy within this nation. Diversity needs a large arena, a grand forum, in which to cohabit and interact symbiotically, with reasonably mutual goals for everyone to live in peace and harmony. Big money is NOT a proper political goal; We The UNITED People, was, and still ought to be, the greatest goal of our rebel republic. We must, if we're true democrats, stop scraping and bowing to the elitist Ladies and Lords of the Bau-Wau Party.

I want to see ALL the leaders of all the different and disparate progressive movements come together and sit under one roof, to finally come back to a "Democratic" Party, and begin working together earnestly to depose the reactionary plutocratic dividers of our country, to dismantle the inhuman systems of Corporatism and restore our nation to Direct Democracy via IRV and the abolition of the Electoral College. Anything less will doom our own country as well as the world to a revived feudalism and perpetual global warfare - and possibly destroy human civilization along with planetary ecosystems.

The People can either exorcise the Bau-Wau Party, and restore it to a healthy vitality, or let it slink off to die its deservedly slow death. The phony Dems may as well die for all they've done for democracy lately. A more difficult alternative is to construct another party for The People in a strong coalition of existing but splintered progressive political groups to "Save Our Republic".

But as long as the phony Dems remain devoted to Bau-Wau, I will NEVER go that way again.

Paxdora

The Earth is sacred,
The Universe is divine

http://www.paxdoraunlimited.com/PantheistAge

[democratreformed]

38. Oooh, that's such an excellent analogy.

We have to stop chasing that ever-moving line. We must firmly define ourselves and set it in stone.

[Skittles]

3. I won't compromise my principles to pander to f***ing BIGOTS

no indeed I WILL NOT

[whathappened]

6. with you all the way to

the end of my lifetime , will alway stay true to the idea that the founding fathers had in mind when they came together to formthe laws of this land

[cornermouse]

4. Another thing that I really didn't really like about the election

was the way that Kerry would make these grandiose announcements without any specifics. He gave the appearance of Moses on the Mount or something. This is not to bash Kerry, I just felt he was too vague and non-specific.

[ClintonTyree]

5. I'm a Socialist...........

so you can count me in. I hate that we've become "Republican Lite". This is not a popular opinion. Many will say, "we'll never win another election going too far left". Well check in the rear view mirror my friends, we're not winning any elections now.

[Gothic Sponge]

7. I agree!

Great post!

[shraby]

8. If Kerry had been more specific, Georgie boy would

have taken the ideas, copied them and then called them his ideas and that Kerry was flip flopping and stealing the ideas. The media would have jumped on it 24/7.

[Lexingtonian]

9. better to be damned for what we really are

I agree, there shouldn't be any shame about being liberal.

Being liberal isn't a negative dogmatism. It isn't the equal-but-opposite of conservatism. It is the "but we can do better than THAT disgusting smallminded sh-t" approach.

-

As for the allegation that this election was stolen, that's easy to maintain as personal opinion. It's hard to maintain it as a serious public stance. Even if one could eke out a Kerry victory in the electoral college, I don't actually see any credible way Dubya's three million vote margin can be discounted. (Okay, his voters are mostly fools, granted that.)

That there was a lot of malfeasance, much incompetence, some fraud, and a great deal of bungling is clear. But it's also clear that it is most prominent in the places that have the worst reputations for doing much of anything in public life or business competently, cleanly, or efficiently. And so it must be considered that Denial is not just a river that runs through Egypt.

[saracat]

13. This is an example of the issue of fraud being dismissed.

"As for the allegation that this election was stolen, that's easy to maintain as personal opinion. It's hard to maintain it as a serious public stance. Even if one could eke out a Kerry victory in the electoral college, I don't actually see any credible way Dubya's three million vote margin can be discounted."
Why is it so hard for some people to comprehend that the 3 million vote margin is A: not a big deal and B: possible to be false? With the amount of voter malpeasance indicated with precincts registering as many as minus 32,000 votes per precinct in some Fla locales and 100,000 votes elsewhere, the differences could be made up handily. I resent the condesension implied by saying I am in denial.And the implication that W's three million is an indisputable landslide. I really don't care how our dispute looks to the other side. They will say we are fruitcakes anyway. We should at least stand our ground. We don't need to impress them. We need to count the votes!

[Ann Arbor Dem]

45. Thank you!

:yourock:

[acmavm]

10. I don't think that we need to change the way we think or act. In fact,

to paraphrase Elvis Costello: "What's so funny about truth, justice, and the American Way?" (Elvis Costello or Superman, take your pick.)

That's the liberal message. Anything else is just mean-spirited facist crap promoted by the repulican party and being adopted by certain democrats out of weakness and fear.

[markus]

11. Enjoy this snippet, and look at this fellows pedigree

"The locus of power has moved dramatically to the right in the Senate," said Marshall
Wittmann, a senior fellow at the Democratic Leadership Council and former staff member for the
Christian Coalition and Sen. John McCain (news, bio, voting record) (R-Ariz.). Whereas
Democratic and moderate Republican senators often could derail or temper conservative
initiatives from the House, he said, "that now becomes much more difficult."

The Xian Coalition? At this point, the DLC would appear to be a front group for the snake handlers.

[Xenus Sister]

12. It looks to me like some Republicans have infiltrated...

and they're the ones trying to get us to change our "values." Well, to heck with them. Hatred and bigotry are not "moral values." They're the ones who have to live with the shame of slimy, dishonest values. We're ok.

[dbt]

14. For a Liberal, I have a suprisingly conservative take on this:

Every vote should be counted fairly and accurately. The hand-wringing that the Democrats are currently suffering through has its basis in the belief that the election was fair.

That fundamental (all puns fully intended) assumption is leading to a huge amount of flawed conclusions: bu$h has a mandate, the whole country took a large turn to the right, Democrats can never succeed again, etc etc etc.

Democrats who want us to renounce our LIBERAL values need to wake up and smell the Black Boxes.

:freak:
dbt

[rhino47]

15. Kick

:kick: Im with you!

[rhino47]

16. Kick

:kick: Im with you!

[Bridget Burke]

17. Just because somebody posts at DU.....

Does not mean that they're really a Democrat. Or that they actually agree with most Democratic beliefs.

Some have been waiting a long time for their chance to spew.

[saracat]

18. I am not just talking about posting at DU. I am told this stuff by

my own vice chair and my own local party. And Bill Clinton is sure considered a Dem as are the DNC and The DLC. They have been spouting this junk as well!

[GreenPartyVoter]

19. *hugs* The left is going to take this country back, somehow.

We have no other choice.

------------------------------------------------------------
Help expose the election 2004 voter fraud today!
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/electionreform.htm

[Paxdora]

28. DU has lots of Repug moles...

you can take that to the bank! Their sole objective is to muddy the waters for the newbie democrats who are still getting their feet wet...

[Search Party]

20. Here! Here!

Moving to the left is NOTHING to be ashamed of.

Riding the fence, on the other hand, .........

[sangh0]

21. Tell them "Americans are with us on the issues"

Poll after poll shows that the Americna people agree with Democrats on the issues. If there's any problem with the issues, the problem lies with how the party promotes them. Tell anyone who wants to modify our positions "It's the job of the membership to decide which policies and positions the Democratic Party takes. It's the job of the Party leadership to sell those positions. We've done our job, now you do yours and stop blaming US for YOUR failures"

[Maestro]

22. The goal here is to leave no doubt about it with anyone

We are not republicans. We do not share any of their views. Just like products that differentiate themselves from others on the shelf, we need to embrace the left and its values of compassion and fairness for ALLLLLLLLLLLL! So if we want to succeed we can talk about values all we want from the left side of the spectrum. We will have no room in our party for the Zell Millers of the world.

[okieinpain]

23. I don't think we should renounce stuff, just play the game like they

do. geez what's so hard about that.

[MuseRider]

24. 100% with you.

I think Kerry would have done much better (yes, he did win but would have won by more) if he had just been allowed to be Kerry. Once he got the nomination I was stunned by some of the things I was hearing or not hearing. I am a lefty and very proud to be one. We need the moderates, we need the centrists and we need the far leftys to make this a whole party to represent the populace more closely.

[Paxdora]

25. I'm with you, babe!

I can't abide with pragmatists who always betray their ideals just to get an "edge" in a moronically stupid race to the bottom!

[Mandate My Ass]

27. Most people support liberal values and principles

We've allowed the right to make the term 'liberal' a pejorative. THe loonies on the far right have painted us as abortion-loving, unamerican atheists and rather than fight the false image, we cave when we shouldn't and it doesn't help us anyway. It's time to start fighting fire with fire. They give absolutely no ground on what they want, why should we? Their tactics give them away and they should be called on it. The use of scorn and misrepresentation demonstrate that they have nothing beneficial to offer when it comes to the issues.

And yes, I'm convinced with the evidence unearthed so far that the election was stolen. This isn't about Kerry anymore, it's about making voting public property again and returning power to the people, where it belongs.

[m berst]

29. with you saracat n/t

[slackmaster]

30. You have a problem with freedom of speech, or with what they're saying?

I don't begrudge anyone the right to demand anything.

:argh:

[saracat]

33. I begrudge them the right to shove it down my throat

and threaten me with it! You won't be elected. you can't voice these opinions, blah! Blah! Blah! They can say what they want, but they have no right to attempt to force people to accept it!

[slackmaster]

36. It's entirely up to you whether or not to accept it

Unless someone is using physical force or intimidation or blackmail, I don't understand your issue. If they are doing one of the above, you should report it to the police.

[saracat]

37. Don't be ridiculous! Party intimidation can't be reported to the police!

Liberals are just told they won't be elected to party positions. Unless they are reasonable and "moderate' . They must fit in. They don't threaten you physically. I think we are being dominated by the so called "moderated" who want us to sell out our values to the repugs. They guise this under necessary compromise in order to win. I say no surrender. No compromise. They are dividing our party into two camps and I won't join the Repug DLC lite side.

[slackmaster]

39. You need to grow a thicker skin

Liberals are just told they won't be elected to party positions. Unless they are reasonable and "moderate' .

I get all kinds of guff from people for my views on some subjects. If you can't take the heat either put on your Nomex suit or get out of the kitchen.

[saracat]

42. I'm not getting out of the kitchen but I don't have to like the

personnel working it!

[Tomee450]

52. Great posts.

My sentiments exactly.

[Pithlet]

47. So, you don't begrudge someone for being mad about anything

posted on a political message board and expressing those feelings,right? I mean, logically, expressing anger and outrage is not, in itself, repressing anyone's speech. Unlike attempts at repression of viewpoints disguised as accusations of denying free speech. That's an age old trick, particularly on opinion oriented message boards.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

31. I. Totally. Agree.

Thank you.

[Yavin4]

32. See My Post On Previous Dem Cave-Ins On Major Issues

Understand that we gave in on all of these things and we still got the most right wing govt in U.S. history:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2631804&mesg_id=2631804

[cheezus]

34. these "moderate democrats" are the republicans of 30 years ago

"the right wing party is too far to my right, so the left wing party had better become the new right wing for me"

fuck'em

[Qanisqineq]

35. I agree

we don't need to compromise on our liberal values, especially on the social values. I do think we need to sell ourselves a little better, that doesn't mean compromising what we believe.

[Nordic]

40. Hey we just aren't spreading our ass cheeks wide enough!

:nuke:

[Zhade]

41. They aren't really Dems, then. They're Vichy Dems.

Appeasers.

Enablers.

Cowards.

Frauds.

DINOs.

Etc.

[Pithlet]

43. Some people think that because we "lost" the election

it validates their center/right views, in the same way that Bush now thinks he has a mandate. Plus, I think the stealth freepers are out in full force today. We'd gain votes if only we'd come around to their way of thinking.

[Danger Duck]

44. We don't have to change our morals, values, ect....

We just need to stand by them. No more goose hunting, and civil union lip service. Stand and be counted, the American People are us(Grammar is not My strong suit). Regardless of the spin being thrown out there, I don't think "values" determined this election. To say, people did not vote for Bush because they disliked Kerry's values. Rather, they were unsure what they were. Bush, well, he love killing brown people. He's quite good at it, and we'll always know where he stands.

I think we need a candidate who embraces his beliefs, and does not try and engage the opposition on their turf. This was an incumbent, and he never went on the defensive.

I always go back to Clinton, but that man could campaign, and be himself, and win hearts and minds. Kerry could get the minds, but not the hearts.

But in four years, I hope we can brush the dust off, and win this thing. It's ours to win.

[Ann Arbor Dem]

46. You hit the nail on the head! n/t

[MisterP]

48. kick!

someone else said something along the lines of "It's hard to win the hearts and minds of the heartless and mindless."

[Orlandodem]

49. We need both wings of the party for the Donkeys to fly.

Whether it is environmental issues, gay rights, or taxes, I would rather get SOME of my agenda than none. Right now we won't get anything. It's not because America doesn't like our values. It is because we haven't framed them properly.

The fact is we need a better way of packaging our message. We can't be against the other side. We need to be for something. The good news is that the "jobs, education, healthcare" message is starting to break through. It is something we can all rally around.

[saracat]

51. Sorry. Who gets to decide what to dump overboard?

What if they dumped you? I won't give up anything.And you can shove your "good" news because If I have no rights as a citizen, what is that to me?

[Orlandodem]

55. If you're referring to gay marriage, think about it this way.

Many in this country are on the verge of accepting civil unions, even if not full marriage. This is progress. Change doesn't happen over night. You have to keep up the good fight and you won't get anything if the Reps are in power.

[saracat]

56. What makes you think I am referring to anything specific/

What about choice? Should we dump that ? Maybe just a little? Only allow it for rape? Is that what you mean? Compromise? What about SS ? Let some people that want to invest? What elsewould you chip away at? What about voting? Maybe it should be a privelge conferred by the states on property owners? Is that such a bad idea? We used to do it that way! GAG!

[Orlandodem]

57. Abortion is something that will eventually kill the Reps.

We must expose them. Their party leaders don't want to end it. They want to use it to get people to the polls in hopes of ending it. If they get Roe overturned they'll unleash hell and open up a pandora's box of problems. Long term we win on the issue.

[doreme]

50. Nothing will change

as long as we keep running candidates who don't even have the guts to say "Hell yes I'm a liberal and damned proud of it." Instead we're running people who feel it's necessary to dress up in camo and go kill some poor creature just to help his image with people who are not going to vote for him - ever!

We are in many ways as unprincipled as the bastards we rail against. I hope we can hold on to our values through the lean times so as to have some credibility left when the pendulum comes back our way.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

53. It is NOT pandering to MODERATES. WE are the moderates. It is pandering

to Right Wingers.

[merh]

54. I am with you - if anything, Kerry chose a platform that was too

similiar to *. Folks asked me, "what's the difference between the 2, sounds like K has the same plan in Iraq as * and we know what to expect from *, we don't know what to expect from K."

The platform was too "centralist" - not liberal enough. (imho)