Wow--a Brand New Poster Just Said a Mouthful--a lot of truth

[Starpass]

I'm going to repost here a reply I just read to a post concerning how stupid the American public was. The Poster is Reachout and has only four posts; but I think this brings up some real truths and it sure makes one think how we are ever going to be able to "overcome".

Posted by Reachout

I'll be honest, I don't think these people are stupid. Even with all the garbage they get fed by Fox and Rush, I don't think they are that uniformed.

The more frightening truth is, I think Bush is the outward expression of what is in the hearts and minds of millions of Americans. We will see next year whether that is really a majority of Americans.

I've lived all over this nation, and I can tell you there are a lot of cruel, vengeful, selfish people out there to whom George W. Bush would seem like a perfectly acceptable president.

I don't buy that he's fooling the American people about anything. His lies are laughably transparent. Rather, I'm willing to contend that a lot of people out there are giving the administration a wink and a nod, and that they understood perfectly well that Iraq was never a threat to this nation but were willing to allow the cover story of WMDs, al Quaeda or whatever continue to be floated as justification.

I talk to right-wingers and most of them admit they never thought there were WMDs. What they won't say, but what seems to underlie their reasoning, is that 3,000 people were killed on American soil on 9-11 by Muslim Arabs, and they want to see much more Muslim and/or Arab blood spilled as a result. We know for certain, that at least three times as many innocent people have been killed in Afghanistan and Iraq than died on Sept. 11, and I think that sets perfectly well with people.

It's like the South during the Nadir years. African-Americans were regularly lynched, and we like to pretend it was a few extremist Klansman. The fact is, lynchings were done with the knowledge and private consent of whole towns of white people.

Read the polls. Just as in the South, the killing and chaos in Iraq still has the consent of the majority of the American people. As well, not many other than a few shrill commentators or rightist comedians will say it aloud, but a lot of Americans think it is perfectly fine to take Iraq's oil if it benefits American interests. I had a conversation with a medical doctor the other day who said his view is that the world is ruled by the strong and the greedy and if we don't take the oil someone else will.

As to other issues such as civil liberties, I don't think as many Americans are really that concerned with their rights as we'd like to think. A recent poll, found that over forty percent of respondents thought the First Amendment "goes too far." If the people of this country really wanted to protect their rights, they would stand up and do it. However, as long as they believe these violations will be leveled against people who don't look or act or worship like they do, it isn't really a big issue.

Many of these same people thoroughly believe in a Darwinian model of economics, even when it is they who are being eaten. Cut taxes and let the Market sort it out. If they are smart and hard-working they'll be rich someday too, and they don't want a bunch of bleeding hearts giving away their money to welfare moms in the ghetto. It's not pretty to hear, but go to a bar where working people hang out and ask around to see how much of this you hear from them. Or for that matter, just take a look at how many unions are blatantly anti-immigrant. Never mind that those unions were mainly formed by poor immigrants fighting for their rights. They are now the haves and don't intend to share with the have-nots.

With the election looming, I think it is more important than ever to stare some cold, hard truths in the face. There is a darkness, a certain cruelness out there in this country. I want to believe that the American people are just being fooled by Bush, but more and more it seems that they know exactly what he is and are making their choice for him and his brand of politics with their eyes wide open.

Bush is charismatic to them because he speaks to a very primal place in them. He spiels out jingoism and vengeance. He may not be able to wrap his mouth (or his mind) around some of the more complex words, but he performs like an old-time tent preacher. He speaks with anger and passion and they love him for it.


I'm sorry to ramble on here, but I don't think closing our eyes to this possibility serves us very well. Perhaps I'm wrong. Maybe living in the heart of red America has skewed my perceptions. I just haven't seen much to convince me that Bush isn't exactly what a big swath of America desires.

[rjbcar27]

1. Wow! Cock on.

That's about the most amount of sense I've heard here for quite a while.

Fair play to you Reachout.

[The Backlash Cometh]

12. You have heard it before...

If you think about what Reachout is saying, there have been people in this country who have been trying to point out the racist underpinings of the Republican party for a long time now. I only started listening to them a few years back, but started believing it since 2000.

Welcome, Reachout. And thank you.

[Kbowe]

134. This is something the Clintons did not FULLY understand and

was the basis for most of the hate against them. They were comfortable with, befriended, and genuinely liked diverse people...blacks, asians, hispanics, Jews, and Arabs. The initial respect Clinton showed to Castro, Mandella, and even Arafat toasted him with the "anti-s" of all stripes. You can be sure that the bigots and old racists in this country really hated him for that.

The really sad part about this kind of thinking is that these dim wits will really believe that folks like the silver-spooned Bushes and their ilk really care about them. The elites have been able to play this game ever since this country came into existence. They were even able to get the poor fools to fight the civil war for them while they sat on their mounds of cotton and railroads. They were able to make poor whites believe that their sorry condition might get sorrier if blacks were freed. They are still getting poor fools to fight their wars... It's relly sad but true.

[Love Bug]

2. Wow--hit the nail on the head

That's why it's so hard to discuss PNAC with some people--they don't see a problem with it.

Basically what we're fighting for is the soul of America--we want to see this country "walk the talk" about freedom and liberty.

Guess they don't call us "bleeding heart" liberals for nothin'.

[MuseRider]

3. Damn

I have been trying so hard NOT to believe that but I do believe there is a lot of truth to it. I do think that they see Bush* as making things alright for them eventually as we, the good guys, rule the world. What we see is that Bush* has no intention of taking care of anyone but his friends and supporters. Maybe that is what we need to put out there. I know, we have been. To think of that is such hard work and so worrisome that many will choose not to entertain the thought. Damn.

Still (I am trying to ignore this as hard as I can) there are many who do see it. Ok, got me. A good point.

on edit If this is the case just where DOES our party fit? We need to answer this.

[alfredo]

16. that gives us a place to begin

yeah, you like the idea of getting the oil for us, but there are more ways of getting it than through war. Remember, "live by the sword, die by the sword." Clinton was also working to gain control of the oil, but he went about it in a different way, with diplomacy. A well reasoned argument is a lot cheaper than a cruise missile. He would rather cut a good business deal than have our kids come home in a body bag. Sure it would have cost money to buy the oil from the Arab nations, but in the long run it would have been cheaper for us tax payers than war without end.


Some of the people mentioned in the first post also believe that Bush is helping bring on the return of Christ by killing the enemies of Israel. Rational arguments will not work with them.

One commentator said that Reagan made us comfortable with our prejudices. Maybe that is what Bush is doing.

[MuseRider]

24. Well, that is NOT what

we need to become comfortable with our prejudices! Great, I had not heard that but it makes some sense. You are right about rational arguements with fundies. They have already given up their choice and responsibility. Somehow I do not understand how people would rather sacrifice their children, or the children of others rather than working things out. Is it all about feeling powerful? It does not compute for me.

[not systems]

4. Agreed

Many people just want to get even with Arabs any Arabs.

Lots of other believe that the USA have a god given right
and mission to control the world.

Many think control of oil is fine and rightous objective.

These people simply "wink and node" with the humanitarian and
security reasons for war and occupation. Believing that
a moral whitewash of the real reasons will let us sleep
at night and feel we are ever the victim of evil others.

[DuctapeFatwa]

5. Some good points. Stupidity is not the same as brutishness

Stupidity is inherent, brutishness, greed, and ignorance are choices.

[WatchWhatISay]

6. That is an extraordinary post

which addresses a most depressing possibility. I'm a red state inhabitant too, however, and I constantly run into some people who just have absolutely no clue what is going on. And they are almost proud of it, as if they don't sully themselves with political matters. Yet they need to believe that as good citizens they should vote, and so tune in to CNN and the like a week or so before an election, where the find very little relevant information on which to make a decision.

[Emboldened Chimp]

7. Americans aren't stupid

Well, some are. But the mantra around here is that most, if not all, Americans are as dumb as dirt and will buy anything hook, line and sinker. What the poster points out is a more complicated and harsher truth: we simply don't care. I care, as many on this board do; but we must realize that many out there in this great country really don't. People are still racist, homophobic, ethnocentric, what have you. The poster is correct in pointing out that many people want to see Arab blood spill. This is the sad fact that we must confront, and sadder still, I don't think there is much to be done about it.

[arcane1]

8. hard to refute that....

the "they're gonna get what's comin' to 'em" mentality is as hold as the hills, and I'll admit that I saw glimmers of alomst joyful relief from many people after 9/11, simply because they knew we would have a good excuse to bomb some people

:grr:

[PAMod]

9. This decribes most of the conservatives that I know...

but still, we have to ENERGIZE our base and REACH OUT to the apathetic uninformed & those who have been deceived by the leaders of the right.

I refuse to believe that the American ideals are a lost cause.

[MuseRider]

17. It is not a lost cause

but we need to find a way for our party to fix this. There is no longer a sense of community in any large sense, it has been replaced by nationalism and that does not bode well. It has become an us against them on a very personal level. To me that is where we need to work. What about the greater good? For many this greater good is the USA being the most powerful. Kinda sounds like many things we see that irritate, my car is larger, my time is more important, my kid is better etc. We don't function that way but society does now. It is almost like a fire sale attitude, grab what you can and screw the little old lady you just batted out of the way.

[grasswire]

18. I will agree...

....that a good part of America fits this description.

However, the election of 2000 and the polling on policies and issues consistently show us that Americans lean toward Democratic ideals more than Republican ideals.

I would venture to guess that perhaps 42 percent fit the description above. And so it is a bit off the mark to say that "Americans" feel this way.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

10. Thanks for the re-post.

Comparison to the South is especially compelling.

[MadHound]

11. Good analysis, but

You've got to remember that even with many millions of people(and the best estimates I've seen is that die-hard conservatives make up about fifty million people) we are still the majority. Poll after poll proves that this nation wants a very liberal agenda, including;
abortion, universal, single payer health care, keep Social Security out of private hands, against vouchers(in fact wanting to improve the quality and pay of public education), and on and on.

So don't despair. The minority you see is a vocal one, and unfortunaltely they control the media. But it is still a minority of people who push the conservative agenda. Time and truth will cure all.

[berry]

130. You may be right on social issues, that the majority is liberal.

But on the military and war, I think there are still a lot of Democratic hawks out there. (Remember, Perle got his start working for Henry Jackson. And though Jackson is gone, there are others still in office, or advising the party.)

[JanMichael]

13. The ugly truth is that we're a well armed, semi-civilized, nation...

...of self absorbed and willfully ignorant people.

Mixed up with an equal number, or so, that actually care about Human Progress.

A recipe much like Spain had prior to their dust up.

[July]

166. Would you explain this, please?

I don't really get the comparison to Spain, particularly with the "well armed" mention. Could you flesh out this point, please?

[bobd]

14. Thanks Starpass I was Gonna Do the same Thing

As a matter of fact I was getting ready to copy Reachout's post and paste it into a new posting.

Reachout was responding to my OP. He/she expressed EXACTLY what I've been try to say but couldn't get the words out.

The issue raised here needs a thorough discussion. It is, in my view, the bottom line on why the conservatives are as sucessful as they are.

Thanks to Reachout for his/her incredible insight and eloquence and to Starpass for giving it the attention it deserves.

I sure love my DU, yes I do!

Bob D.

[T Roosevelt]

15. I am inclined to agree

I have friends who are not stupid, who can think critically, and who (I thought) understand right and wrong. And yet I cannot have a reasonable political discussion with them because they are so enamoured by * and what is going on - I can't get through to them. And they are both personally experiencing the problems with today's economy - forced overtime, threat of losing their jobs, problems with health insurance...it's incredible that despite all this, they still support this administration. And the truly interesting thing about them - they are both religious (not extremists, but...).

[ignatius]

19. Valid points. I work with a guy who kept repeating

just bring on the cheap gas. His wife, a gradeschool teacher, was aginst the war, talked to him about the depleted uranium and its effects on the soldiers of the first Gulf war as well as the effects of sanctions and DU on the Iraqi citizens. But all he could think about was the cheap gas prices.(which obviously we haven't seen.)

He is a college educated, staunch republican. The fact that many innocents have died, the pResident has lied time and time again, matters not to him.

I agree that many are like him, but I have to believe that the majority of Americans are better than that. These are the people who need to be reached by showing the deceit, greed, and sheer boldfaced lies of this administration.

[Dhalgren]

105. I disagree that the "magority" are more center-left than right.

If they were we would not have Repug majorities in both houses of congress and repug governors in most states. I think "Reachout" is on to a hard nut that many of us just don't want to crack - America is not (and has never been) the progressive country we would all wish it were. When we think back on all of our "liberal" heros, most of them have closets full of not-so-wondrous history that often make us cringe.

Just look at the way unions have dissolved and evaporated over the past forty years - against the best interests of the workers who were, themselves, instrumental in the ostrasism of said unions. We may still be able to win against the Bushites, but it will be by addressing the peoples greed and self-interest and not in their "better angels".

[Generic Other]

20. Some issues never get addressed by the majority of Americans

because they get so damned defensive if anyone dares to raise them.

[carolinayellowdog]

21. Dehumanization and insularity

Hey,

We like to think of our role in WWII as noble, self-sacrificing for the good of the world, etc.-- but Germans and Japanese were just as dehumanized in the popular mind then as Arabs are now, and as Southern blacks were in the era of lynching. Recently I read that a huge majority of congresscritters don't hold passports. Dubya, with all his advantages of class, money, and access, never showed the curiosity to travel abroad until the presidency forced it upon him. There's a kind of infantile self-centeredness about many Americans, born of our insularity. No other country in the world can have a citizenry as blithely ignorant of everyone else's existence.

Despite all that, I think Dubya is going down. Not because the US citizenry will ever get worked up about all the evil he has done, but out of self-interest. Every dozen American deaths causes another point drop in his approval ratings-- whereas a thousand Arab deaths make it rise a couple of points.

So yes, perhaps we are as bad as this poster indicates, but no, it won't save Dubya.

CYD

[Aristus]

22. Good post, but I've believed this for a while. I only have to look to

my in-laws to see the example. There are plenty of people out there who honestly believe that B*sh is behaving the way a President ought to. Throwing his weight around, unleashing the war machine on people who are too destitute to defend themselves, plundering their resources for our own benefit, making the country better for rich people, hanging the poor out to dry (after all, they don't contribute to the country or anything), letting the corporations do whatever they want, with no restrictions. It's sad, but a lot of people actually believe that shit.

[Catherine Vincent]

23. Wow! He was responding to my post.

I can't believe I inspired him/her to write that post.:D

<just kidding>

[Karenina]

25. WOW!!!

Bada-bing! Bada-BOOM! :bounce:

Is that a Libety Bell I hear Reachout ringing???

[kentuck]

26. Eyes wide open ??

That may very well be true. Their eyes are open and they are not stupid or uninformed. However, they are not getting the full picture. Although their eyes are open and they are listening carefully and forming opinions from what they observe, they are not being given the full menu. They trust what they hear from the TV and other mediums... That is the nature of Americans, in my opinion.

They believe Bush is supported by more than 50% of the people because that is what they are told and they become part of that group when they are asked about it. The majority of them do not hear or read what the average reader of DU hears and reads. They hear FOX-TV and MSNBC and the middle-roaders like ABC, NBC, and CBS who sometimes appear that they are going to go "over the line" and say something extraordinarily different from what they normally hear, but in the end, they don't challenge the status quo.

Many of these people are too busy trying to provide for their families to search for more information that might challenge George W Bush and the status quo, and many don't give a damn because they don't think it makes a difference who's in office anyway, bacause they have been told in more than subtle ways that it doesn't make a difference.

In the end, we do not have control of the propaganda system in this country, and we never will. If we want to get out the truth, we must find a different way to do it. It is not going to be over radio or TV as we now know it. I think that is part of the equation that we have to accept also. People may be fully aware of why they support George W Bush but they are not fully aware of opposing viewpoints.

[w4rma]

27. Our positions are the positions that will help our country in the long run

and we must make these folks realise that we can't waste our resources away fighting unwinnable guerilla wars in far away lands. This is not only the ethical, moral and honorable position it's also the militarily strongest position. Good generals do not waste resources on corruption and on military quagmires.

If I were Bin Laden and China, I'd want Bush in office and more invasions. Enough war and waste and then America will be so weak militarily and diplomatically that our country will be susceptible to invasion by the huge amount of cannon fodder that China has to throw at us. And then, that's all folks.

[berry]

132. You're right about the military and how it should and should not be used,

but please rethink your fears of China attacking the US. This is something that we could maybe MAKE happen by behaving aggrssively ourselves, but this idea that China=enemy is part of PNAC and other wrong-headed hawks. Please read up on this, and don't just buy into the hysteria.

[indigo11153]

28. Yep

I have been thinking the same thing. This has always been Bush's cult appeal. So how do we fight it? "A Billion Dollars a week" Keep repeating it. That's how you fight it. When American finds out that they have been duped and they are being ripped off then they might care. Talk about the money. These greedy folk went along with all this because they think there is something in it for them. If we can connect hard times in American with a Billion dollars a week in Iraq Higher gas prices, Job loses, we might turn these cochroaches around.

Our new poster is right but that doesn't mean we still can't win. We just need to use his wise words. What appeals to these folk and what makes them mad? Let's find this and go there.

[MuseRider]

29. It would help

if we knew where this money was going. Is there an accounting? Is it all going into Bush* buddies companies? How much is going towards the Iraqi people? Where is it?

[indigo11153]

33. This looks like a good site

http://www.costofwar.com/

[MuseRider]

51. Well, that shows us

what we could do with the money but I want to know who is getting it. I think we deserve an accounting. I have yet to see one. Why is no one questioning? 4 billion a month? I have never heard anyone ask where it is going.

[indigo11153]

54. The bill is coming

As you can well imagine Bush&Co. doesn't want us to see this information but he is going to have to ask Congress for money soon and I expect this will be out in the next few weeks. I damn good question, MuseRider. I'll be looking for the answer as well.

[MuseRider]

62. Somehow I doubt

we will ever hear the answer to this.

[undergroundpanther]

43. The same dynamics

This is the same dynamic I see over and over,like a loop


First you got the bully,the socialized sociopath who is greedy boorish,hypocritical and lives by carrot and stick.An authoritarian, pushy and willfully ignorant,likes thier predjudices and doesen't get inbto introspection.
Than you got people with a lesser degree of this

Than you got more empathic people who are more into sharing and equality.


I think kids are TRAINED to be THE RUDE SELFISH NARROW MINDED ADULTS THEY BECOME.School is a normalized slave factory not a place to fufill ones mind and soul in the way that encourages independant thought,innovation or creativity,especially if it challenges authority and the way they do things..Kids get abuse in school unless they learn to obey and fear authority ,thier peers and trust the opinions of other people, in school they learn conformity and insecurity.

At home parents are overworked and self absorbed at best.At worst kids are abused and because the family is idealized and made sacred it is hard to intervene in this atomized culture where no community exists so the state is called in.We dare not get involved.
We all live in seperate little homes and we do not know our neighbors community trust has evaporated. We have no time because work is made into an all important all encompassdsing activity replacing our own family with the corporate "family" slowly..The state has stepped into our communities where we have stepped out.


As a society we are turning sociopathic.
We as a species I do think we suffer from a form of stockholm syndrome, because we identify with those who abuse us,and desire thier wealth,connections,image,power and authority.Yet we will work for them obey and give them control even if it hurts us..we are a terrorized people.Trapped by beliefs deep inside that hold us in chains we can't see.


Like another poster said here on DU,Solomon I think...about living with racism when it gets to be a normal feature of the landscape..it's like we are fish swimming in water,so we are not aware of the medium in which they swim..really because it is everywhere and barely visible because they know no other environment.Take a fish out of water than it realizes what it has been living in.


Likewise living with the insitutionalized mechanics of society that creates sociopathicness in us with our me first competitive way of life ..This 'medium' is the expectations of this society.It's reinforced in the way we live and interact with each other competitively,hierachically ,abstractly.This dehumanizing competitiveness and fear of others because of traumas inflicted by authorities to maintain control when we are kids is part of what makes us sick in the soul and stunts our empathy for one another.

This problem in our way of relation is warped by authoritarians ,power and threat.. it is made invisible because it is everywhere from cradle to grave. We have normalized our own suffering and unhappiness.Everyday we are fed through other people a way to live that makes us produce, obey and buy but makes us crazy,apathetic and unhappy too.We are emotional social creative dynamic creatures.But our society demands we stifle who we are and our spiritual explorations to"make it" and be a productive memeber of a sick society that is hurtling twords species wide suicide...Especially this applies to the unquestioning republicans and thier scared selfish enablers.I think as a society we are so used to this expectation of living in a selfish, competitive,future oriented,sociopathic,authoritarian way of interacting,thinking we can't see the medium that encourages us think as we do that we perpetuate upon each other that makes us all sick .

We aren't aware(or we refuse to let ourselves become aware) of what we are being manipulated into becoming by the currents of our group mind(culture)(socialized sociopaths).And we aren't aware of why we choose to identify with certain people or icons either when we are too submerged in a interactive sensorium medium intent on eradicating empathy in us for the weaker less profitable people among us..It's darwinism internalized Survival of the fittest.Specialization will not save us from our own illness.Winners and losers.What can you get away with today?
This social dynamic is killing us slowly.And it has been around a long time.



* "They begin in Bondage. They then go from Bondage to Spiritual Faith. With that Spiritual Faith they develop great Courage. That Great Courage leads to Liberty. Liberty then leads to Abundance. Abundance then leads to Selfishness. This Selfishness then leads to Complacency. The Complacency grows into Apathy. Apathy then degenerates into Dependence. This Dependence brings them full circle back into Bondage."
-- Tyler wrote of great civilizations:

[MuseRider]

57. Interesting

you put it very well. Thanks.

[Starpass]

65. undergroundpanther---that, too, is an excellent post!!

I expecially liked the quote at the end---because that is exactly the end we are at in this nation. We have become sick with what we have been forced fed that is why this "happy, fulfilled" people live on legal pills, booze, and illegal drugs.

[MuseRider]

66. And TV

to tell us what to think.

[Zhade]

150. You sum it up well.

We are a terrorized people.

We are, indeed. A terrorized people living under, essentially, a military dictatorship that many lack the courage to see.

[Ladyhawk]

170. You're talking about the Ayn Rand camp.

That whole "greed is a virtue" nonsense. My brother has bought into this completely. I guess part of me would like to believe he is being deceived, but I know better than that. He likes Bush because Bush is doing what he would do.

The rest of my family is the same way. How many of those who vote Republican really feel this way?

[LoneStarLiberal]

30. The Ugly Face of Selfishness

That's one damn good post.

I personally feel that there is more of this calculating, self-serving agreement with the ends of Bush's actions even if the means are fouled up. Admittedly part of this impression is shaped by the fact that I am a liberal in a sea of a few politically indifferent people and an endless swamp of politically conservative people in North Texas.

One of the most potent weapons that the Republican Party has at its disposal is their version of the American Dream. Their message is exclusionary, heartless, unforgiving, and addictive. In truth, the American Dream the Republican Party pushes is not too terribly different from a heroin addiction.

In the Republican view of America, inequality is just another feature of the landscape. In their view of America, we don't need to try to do anything about it because it is simply all part of the natural order of things. Having an unprotected underclass also helps to keep the workaholics above them suitably terrified so that they don't get too "uppity" and start demanding better working conditions, more insurance coverage, or anything that would get in the way of squeezing greater profits out of them.

Their cynically-shaped American dream is that any policy attempting to assist the poor that requires taxes is a hinderance to everyone's opportunity to "make it," even though very, very few ever do make it. The cynical, selfish, and malicious part of this is that people buy into this all the time even though they know deep down they will never have it; it is all about the opportunity versus the reality.

Great work, reachout.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

149. The Republican Emotional Sickness gripping this dysfunctional country

can be summed up by this NAZI MASTER RACE PARADIGM: "YOU HAVE WHAT YOU HAVE BECAUSE YOU DESERVE IT" which is sold as the big lie of 'Free Markets' otherwise known as the lie of meritocracy in a democracy when neither is real. That is the root of all Fundamentalist Inhumanity, that is the source of Might Makes Right, that is the source of My Country Right Or Wrong, that is the source of I Got Mine-What's Your Problem? That is the source of the Rebirth of Divine Rule in the age of enlightment, that is the source of God Told Me to Hate You, that is the source of Manifest Destiny, that is the source of Apartheid America, that is the source of Women Belong in the Home, that is the Source of Homophobia, that is the source of Who Needs Poor People and Other Losers?, that is the source of You're With Us or Against Us, that is the source of JESUS-SANCTIONED NAZI AMERICA. Read this article in the Guardian about the psychology of Geprge W. as an abused child leading a dysfunctional nation of ignorant bullies called 'So, George. How do you feel about your mom and dad?:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1033904,00.html

[CWebster]

31. Despite all

the years the neo-conservative movement has been positioning for this moment - after dragging Clinton through the mud and Gore running a handicapped campaign due to bad DLC advice from a powerful element within pulling from the Right, prompting a split off the progressive wing to the Greens, Gore still won. Since the cabal stole the election, the country has been spiraling downward while Bush and the boys looted the treasury, alienated the world diplomatically, increased security risks and furthered destablization of all the regional hotspots. Soldiers dying everyday and no end in sight - Environmental safeguards trashed, education gutted, jobs lost and a national media with a corporate agenda.

But the people are still there - that is what the burgeoning Dean phenomenon represents--the vast surge of voters whose presence is intentionally overlooked and denied that is the alternative to the group-think that so many feel compelled to submit to.

It is dangerous for the powers that be to see that consciousness break the surface into greater awareness, but in the end there is no denying it.

[teryang]

32. But they are uniformed

But it isn't concious choice. People don't choose to accept the projection from Carl Rove, Faux news or their their Southern Baptist preacher, they uncounsiously acquiesce. They follow the mass mindset created for them to fill the gaps in education, experience, knowledge and awareness that they can't fill themselves because the effort is to great.

It is also too disturbing. The alternative to defining the objects of our aggression, avarice and disdain as "evil ones" is considering that we ourselves may also be evil. It also involves considering oneself in the role of victim. Who me? I'm not a victim, I am a winner.

Fortunately, bar flys don't vote as a rule. Nor are they representative of the entire public. They certainly are not representative of a majority of registered voters. Only drunks, the young and the rich can delude themselves with social darwinism. The poor, the uninsured, the ill, the handicapped, the elderly, the unemployed, the underemployed, the victims of discrimination, corporate exploitation and fraud know social darwinism can't be a legitimate policy for a nation.

I agree that we are presented with a grave threat because the cultivation of the totalitarian mindset is the object of the political and corporate leaders now in power. They have by any measure been wildly successful. Nevertheless, the projection of the propagandists' virtual reality breaks down in the face of small business failures, unemployment, uncovered illness, bankruptcy, the loss of life savings and the threat of economic and social decline experienced by the individual voter and his family. This is why the usurpers in the executive branch are now paying lip service to economic issues because those who may be characterized uncharitably as zombies are involuntarily being forced through the thin veneer of politicaly expedient lies and propaganda by the rude hand of economics and a corrupt failing government. The lies now have to be expanded to cover new ground or face political losses. Lies are no substitute for the rent money. People who can't pay their family bills shake off the United States of Amnesia.

The greater threat than the ignorance of the American public is fraud at the polls. Without fraud we will win.

[ComerPerro]

34. Not all of them are uniformed

Some of them know whats going on, and they know about the lies. The only thing is, they don't care because they are so happy to be on a winning team. And it feels so fucking good to be right.

[Zhade]

152. Remember...

Even with fraud, we still won. The fascists wiped as many as 90,000+ voters in Florida (and who knows where else they cheated) and Gore still won. Chimpy had to be installed to sieze office.

They can't win even when they cheat! That's gotta be a sign of hope, right?

[July]

167. I think you are right about our winning if there's no fraud

Possible fraud is the big if, but I'm cautiously optimistic about our chances. How many articles have been posted here about different groups (or parts of groups) becoming disillusioned with the "plunder and blunder" gang (got that from one of YOUR posts, teryang!)? Election analysts talk about how good the Republicans are at getting out their base, which means that they're more or less maxed out at the polls unless they can draw from new groups. Instead, we're learning that (some) Muslims, Arabs, Cubans, veterans, active military, seniors, and others are becoming disaffected. Then there are the people directly affected by Bush policies -- civil servants, Head Start parents, park rangers, and so on. Many people here have posted anecdotal evidence about changing opinions among friends, family, and people they meet. If we get the Democratic-leaning unregistered to register and then to vote and get those changing their minds to vote -- and maybe encourage the troubled single-issue voters like anti-choice types who don't like Bush to stay home, we win. Unless they cheat. Which has already happened. That's why I'm only "cautiously" optimistic. But if there's fraud, there had better be a reaction, or moribund democracy will expire.

[chesley]

35. Revenge

against Arabs is not the motivation for the war on terror, including the battle of Iraq. The motivation is, these people hate us, why does NOT matter. They say they hate us. they say they are going to kill us, or convert us all to Islam. For 20 years, they have been killing us. Nobody seems to want to believe that they mean what they say. Finally, America has taken notice.

Iraq is just the beginning. Syria should be next. Iran can be taken care of by our good friends, the Israelis. This will be the duty and responsiblity of the next president, be he Bush, Dean, or somebody else. The President of the United States cannot leave Americans at the mercy of radical Isalmists

[Catherine Vincent]

36. Not all muslims say that.

Please!

[chesley]

63. enough do

that action has to be taken. Once your enemy stops trying to kill you, then you can talk to him about his "issues"

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[chesley]

80. I'm not really worried about

them taking over the world. Just killing more Americans

[StandWatie]

83. uh-huh..

What's your final solution for these dangerous folks?

[chesley]

110. Have you

read my other posts? It seems pretty obvious, the terrorists must be eliminated, killed, captured, or convinced to use more peaceful means.

What is your solution to the problem of terrorism???

[StandWatie]

127. ahhh...

First off, I'd quit out on all US forces operating in the other hemisphere. Next I'd tell Israel they were on their own, good luck and have a nice day. Next I'd probably get assassinated but assuming I lived I'd issue an apology and wait and see if that didn't fix our little "terrorism" problem instantly.

[Zhade]

154. A wise person once said...

The easiest way to end international terrorism is for the United States government to stop supporting and funding international terrorism.

[indigo11153]

38. Bush is helping the extremists!

Syria and Irag gained independence from the extremists. They did it with the gun and no mercy. The truth is most of the extremists are in Saudi Arabia. Want to go get them?

[chesley]

64. Yes

[indigo11153]

So tear your

ass. But, Why Iraq?

[prolesunited]

45. Obviously, you identify quite well

with the type of person the initial poster was referring to.

Arabs and people who practice Islam are not all of the same. Were you aware that there are many factions of Islam, just as there are many divisions within Christianity? Within the Arab world, you find secular as well as theocratic governments.

"These people hate us" All of them? So the best solution is to kill 'em all and let God sort them out? Do you realize that you're advocating genocide?

We are superior to "them" and they are a threat to us so we have every right to imprison and/or kill them. You do realize that this was the same type of reasoning that the German Nazis used to justify the slaughter of millions of Jews? Was that a good thing? Or is this somehow different?

I agree. We need to deal with terrorists, but it doesn't bother you in the least if entire countries are devastated in the process and thousands of innocent women, children and men lose their lives in the process.

How many people do you think we'll need to kill before we'll be "safe"? Do you kill the sons, daughters, brothers and fathers of terrorists so they don't try to take revenge on the U.S. Perhaps we'll just end up in the same situation as Israel, with a never-ending level of violence.

[chesley]

69. so what??

Not all of them hate us. I don't hate them. do you think you are telling me something that I don't know when you say not all Arabs or Muslims are alike? Where did I say I thought that?

Terrorism is sponsored by various governments. These governments have to be reformed or destroyed. I prefer reformed because, like you, I don't like to see preventable deaths. But if not, the people will suffer because their government, whose responsibility they are, are chosen to put them in harm's way.

No, I do not agree that this has anything to do with Nazis. I said nothing about being superior to "them" so don't put any words in my mouth. This has to do with survival. They attacked us. Not all of them, but the ones who did cannot be allowed any refuge. The ones who might be planning something cannot be allowed any refuge. anyone who helps them cannot be allowed any refuge.

If innocent people lose their lives, sure it bothers me, but again, it is the responsibility of their governments to protect them. Our government's responsibility is to protect us.

How many people do we need to kill to be safe. all of them. Every last terrorist. Every one. As for Israel, they can end the violence when they actually get serious about it. Is it going to be tough on the Palestinians? You betcha!

[Kool Kitty]

128. And who gets to decide exactly who these terrorists are?

And who decides when the job is finished, and all the terrorists are finally killed? Seeing as W's idea of who the terrorists actually are changes damn near hourly, that is a big order to fill.

[Zhade]

155. Hmm.

"But if not, the people will suffer because their government, whose responsibility they are, are chosen to put them in harm's way."

By your reasoning, the government of Israel should have been targeted for "regime change" after the death of Rabin, because he was killed by a Jewish extremist - someone who, you seem to be saying, the Israeli government would have been responsible for.

Should the Clinton administration have been subjected to "regime change" due to the Oklahoma City bombing?

Oh, wait. The Republican Right did target him for that, and many other things. My mistake.

[DrWeird]

46. Sounds like bigotry too me.

You're lumping all muslimerists into a blood thirtsty gang of murderous, swarthy terrorists based on the actions of a few. You dismiss inexcusable past actions of the united states in the ME as "it doesn't matter." You advocate the killing of people based solely on their religion.

Frankly, sir or madam, you are guilty of what you accuse these innocent people of, and honestly I'd be perfectly happy if we bombed the real terrorists. It's our duty and responsibility as real americans.

[chesley]

71. Nonsense.

I ;ump nobody together. I just don't think the situation can be handled with criminal justice procedures. I think the society that breeds these monsters, and cheers them in the streets when they kill Americans needs to be reformed.

[StandWatie]

79. a "new order"?

[indigo11153]

91. When is your plane leaving

for Saudi Arabia?

[chesley]

111. What kind of question is that??

I certainly am not a vigilante or bounty hunter. what could I do alone. that's what the US military is for. And, yes, I served in the US Army.

[truth2power]

Chesley

Did you take a wrong turn somewhere?

[chesley]

72. Nope.

I don't think so.

[mrsteve]

47. Oooh...so much BS. Where to begin...

"The motivation is, these people hate us, why does NOT matter. They say they hate us. they say they are going to kill us, or convert us all to Islam"

Listen to Ann Coulter or Jerry Falwell. The tell the Muslim world again why they shouldn't be afraid of every Christian.

There are hate mongers on both sides. They are NOT the majority. And the great masses of people should not be terrorized, bombed, shot, or imprisoned just because a few lunatics preach hatred.

"Iraq is just the beginning. Syria should be next. Iran can be taken care of by our good friends, the Israelis. This will be the duty and responsiblity of the next president, be he Bush, Dean, or somebody else. The President of the United States cannot leave Americans at the mercy of radical Isalmists"

PNAC anyone?

And Israel taking on Iran is absurd. Iraq couldn't take Iran when it had the world's fifth largest army and air force. Short of using nukes, Israel would be massively overstretched in launching an invasion of Iran.

Although, throwing Dean in there was a very unconvincing ploy to hide some very freeper sentiments.

And quite frankly - I'm more worried about Christian fundamentalists with the world's largest nuclear arsenal in hand then in Islamic fundamentalists with car bombs.

[chesley]

75. What??

"And quite frankly - I'm more worried about Christian fundamentalists with the world's largest nuclear arsenal in hand then in Islamic fundamentalists with car bombs".

[chesley]

78. As for Israel taking Iran

They just need to take out their nucleur reactors.

[Zhade]

156. AMEN.

It's kinda hard to eradicate the entirety of mankind with simple car bombs. I mean, it takes a lot more time to set them up than for a "dry" drunk messianic-complex illiterate "president" to push the button.

[NNN0LHI]

49. You fell for the lies n/t

[chesley]

77. Which lie was that?

That there are Islamist terror groups? That one of them bombed the * out of us on 9/11 ? Perhaps it was the lie that Saddam supported terrorists. Perhaps it was the lie that these terror groups all want two things, the destruction of Israel, and the destruction of the United States. Before you make such a nonsensical statement, add a little detail.

[Zhade]

158. Heh, I like that term.

"Bombed the * out of us" - they bombed the bush outta us?

That's priceless! A keeper, it is.

[MuseRider]

52. WHY DOES NOT MATTER?

Really? I think it not only matters but is the answer.

[chesley]

76. What do you propose?

That we should alter our foreign policies to please mass-murdering extortionists?? Will we do that for the next group of whackos to come along, too? why should we?

[DrWeird]

88. We are the mass murdering extortionists.

but that doesn't really matter, does it.

[MuseRider]

94. It matters, yes it does.

[chesley]

112. Who are we extorting??

n/t

[DrWeird]

126. Well, we extorted Iraq, for one.

Let in the inspectors or we invade.

All though I guess that's not really extortion, since we invaded anyway after they let inspectors in.

We extorted any country that wouldn't support the phony invasion.

[MuseRider]

93. Not at all

but I think we should know why the anger is there. We can't control everything, that I agree with but I don't think that looking inward and outward for solutions is a problem nor do I think it is "appeasement". Why do we assume the problem has nothing to do with us? Anyone who murders is a "wacko" to me and that includes us. Sorry, I think I have heard all of this before on the Sean Hannity show.

[chesley]

113. There is

a difference between murder and war.

[MuseRider]

120. I fail to see the difference.

Semantics. BTW, war killing civilians? What would you call it?

[indigo11153]

99. We already did

Osama wants us out of Saudi Arabia... we left.
Osama wants us in a war in the middle east... he has got it.
He wants us fighting his enemies in Iraq... he gets it.
You don't win anything by giving into your enemies.
You just don't know who the enemy is.

[chesley]

114. Oh,

I think that I do.

[Starpass]

73. chesley--do you know that the right wing fanatics have been

throwing out just such "their going to get us--we're going to die" tactics for decades upon decades?? Did you know that as years past and the "truth" could be examined, that they were always wrong?? They have constantly miscalculated everything and pumped it to the level of insanity and had everyone looking under a rock and around a corner for the big bad "thing" that was being neglected by the "damn" other party, but was of emment danger. It's the model for the lunacy we see today. Yes, we will have other attacks on American soil. Welcome to the real world---and there is nothing we can do to stop it but it's not going to destroy the country.

[chesley]

84. yes

I "know" all that. I also know that there is something that can be done. Kill the terrorists. Remake the governments that support them. Give the people a taste of liberty, and some hope. But you people who think that giving in to extortion and blackmail will buy anything but trouble do NOT live in the real world.

[never cry wolf]

90. you talk as if there is a finite number of terra-ists

and that our killing them does not breed more or that our previous killing of them and support of those that did not breed the ones that attacked us. viloence begets more violence in every instance. we will NEVER kill the terrorists, we will just multiply their numbers. it is a never ending cycle of carnage.

[chesley]

116. Think William Tecumseh Sherman

n/t

[never cry wolf]

125. William Tecumseh Sherman

Did not have a billion followers getting more pissed off at us on a daily basis nor over half the world's oil reseves to support them. Besides, has the south given up, even to this day??

[MuseRider]

97. HOPE?

Do you think the Iraqis are feeling a lot of hope? This is bullshit. We can't and should not be remaking countries just because we are so great. Oh yes, the GOOD GUYS. Diplomacy is NOT giving in and sorry, my world is very real and I prefer it without blood.

[chesley]

122. I personally don't

care how they treat each other in their own countries. Or rather, I do, and would be glad to help financially, and do. But I don't see the need to overthrow any government that is not a threat to the USA. for that rerason, I oppose any action in, say, Liberia. Let the fearless French handle it.

But, there is a long history of Arab terrorism against the USA. It is time that it was stopped. Iraq is first,but as a number of nations in the ME do not seem to have gotten the message, there will probably be some others. It is not that we are "great". What a racist sentiment you seem to be expressing. It is that they support the outlaws that attacked us.

Does this seem "simplistic" to you? Try "simple", like 2+2=4. Simple and right. 9/11 clarified a lot of things for a lot of people, including me.

[MuseRider]

123. ME? Racist?

Where did you get that? The fearless French? Who are you and why are you here?

Look, I am done talking to you. You are not here to further the ideals of this board. I love a good discussion but I hear this all on the RW radio and don't come here to "hear" it. I am sorry I even engaged you in the first place. If you want to engage in something worthwhile lets talk later but it is clear I am not going to change my mind, your arguements are old and stale.

[never cry wolf]

129. Yeah , a long history

starting like about when we started messin with their affairs. Iraq HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH 9/11!!!!! The terrorist group al quaida did it in reaction to the US military being in saudi arabia and our continued support of israel. if we'd just leave em all the fuck alone i have no doubts they would do the same to us, that's all they want. we, and our allies started this crap.

[TacticalPeek]

100. Would you agree that more al Queda have been killed

by foreign Muslims than by American's?

[chesley]

118. I don't know

and don't see any relevance to the question

[TacticalPeek]

135. The relevance is heavy because you make it so.

You expressed support for killing terrorists that threaten the US. Although you start from a premise of "revenge" (#35), most of your posts also focus on prevention of future attacks. I'm with you so far, since I would very much like to see every al Queda member killed, except where intel may take priority. I apply that same prescription for any terrorist group or country that threatens the US.

Your problem is leaping from revenge for 9/11 to attacking Iraq, Syria, etc. Surely you concede that all we know indicates that Iraq was UNINVOLVED in 9/11, likewise Syria. In fact, to the contrary, Syria has been very helpful to the US in preventing terrorist acts against us (intel described by an unnamed spook as "golden"). Since Syria has not attacked us and can help us against al Queda, your desire to attack them contradicts your desire for revenge and prevention.

And attacking Iraq should have been the last thing on our checklist in the war on terror. True, they probably were behind the car bomb intended for Bush I, though I think that is not absolutely settled. Certainly the perps were not Iraqi security, SpecRepGuard, or RepGuard. Cutouts, maybe. That is the only possible instance of Iraqi terrorism against the US, unless you care to cite others of which I (and the world) am unaware.

We are a finite country with finite resources, and must prioritize in order to meet the worthy goal of destroying al Queda. Bush's absurd adventure in Iraq, and his poor excuse for leadership in time of war, have unquestionably damaged our efforts to destroy al Queda. Not to mention, alienating numerous allies we need to help kill terrorists, which, I must remind you, is the point after all, killing terrorists who threaten us. Any round, any ordnance, any troop expended otherwise must, to me anyway, be scrupulously justified, and I find no logical justification in your posts, let alone compelling case. No offense, but it comes pretty close to PNAC cakedreams.

You cannot deny for one minute that invading Iraq has hurt our cause against our real enemies, al Queda:

snip
The figures are striking. There are about 160,000 United States military in Iraq but only 11,500 in Afghanistan and the shadowy Task Force 20 - the original "Osama bin Laden hunters" - is now tightening the noose around Saddam after killing two of his sons.

A year ago at the height of the hunt for bin Laden, 800 of them from Delta special forces, navy Seal commandos and the CIA were deployed in mountainous tribal lands on the Afghan-Pakistan border. Many speak Arabic and run their own sophisticated surveillance operations.

Most valuably, during a year on the ground they gained a pool of local knowledge and expertise and developed contacts.

But late last year the Pentagon began to give the cream of TF20 a few weeks leave before their new top priority mission: the hunt for Saddam.
snip

http://www.thewest.com.au/20030811/news/latest/tw-news-latest-home-sto108266.html

So, no offense, but my problem with you is that your approach gets in the way of killing terrorists. Enlighten me, or get out of the way. You or Bush may have forgotten Bin Laden, but I haven't.

[Starpass]

101. hey, chles----we are doing a neat spiffy job "remaking" that Iraq

government aren't we?........if we could only stop all those fuckers we are trying to give deee-mock-rah-cee to from blowing up everything in sight..............wait, I know. Why bother sorting them out. Let's go the whole way to protect ourselves. Let's nuke the lot. PROUD TO ME AN AMERICAN---AND STUPID AS HELL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[chesley]

119. are you really??

[MuseRider]

121. I don't know about Starpass

but I certainly am not proud right now. What are you trying to do here? I doubt you are going to convince a lot of us that wanton killing is a good thing from either the terrorists or from us.

[coda]

162. " Remake the governments that support them. "

http://www.cafeshops.com/lt_fullofit


You are woefully ignorant of our long history in the Middle East.

WE supported these governments. WE were instrumental in creating some of them. WE have had a hand in "remaking" others and/or maintaining a status quo in them. The West has had decades of extreme influence there.



"...you people who think that giving in to extortion and blackmail will buy anything but trouble do NOT live in the real world...."

You people? Have YOU ever heard of Iran/Contra? Why don't save your "you people" for the people who indulge in that blackmail and extortion?

I'm guessing the Taliban harbored those exact same feelings when the Bush "state department" during pipeline "negotiations" told them:

"...a carpet of gold or you'll get a carpet of bombs."

You see they were willing to "work" with the Taliban. Our main foreign policy tools have become bribes, blackmail, and extortion. That's the real world, bub.


You couldn't have more than a cursory knowledge of the West's long involvement in that region, to be able to say the things you do.

[Arkady]

133. "chesley--do you know that the right wing fanatics have been

"throwing out just such "their going to get us--we're going to die" tactics for decades upon decades"

The difference here is, Islamic terrorists murdered 3000 Americans on September 11th. By their own words, they would love to kill 3 million, or 30 million.

Islamic fundamentalism, like Nazism, is an "armed ideology" that can only be stopped through the application of violence. I just don't see any other way to deal with this. I am open to suggestions, however.

[Zhade]

153. Uh...

"Good friends"?

Ever heard of the U.S.S. Liberty?

[Ani Yun Wiya]

160. "They hate us"

You say:
"Iraq is just the beginning. Syria should be next. Iran can be taken care of by our good friends, the Israelis."

Perhaps you should join the IDF.
Ariel Sharon and his crew would just love your thinking, maybe they would even let you be an officer!!

Or are you just the fearful sort that the curent criminal in the White House depends on?

[5thGenDemocrat]

37. Great post -- but here's my take

Longtime DUers know that I have a good friend named Andy the Right Wing Republican.
Andy has Fox News on 24/7. He listens to Rush daily and parrots the Fat One's rantings to me two or three times a week. We literally have to swear off on political discussions because, in acknowledged point of fact, I am never going to change his mind about anything nor will he change mine.
Andy doesn't like the French. Or the Germans, or the Canadians or the UN, or "environmental whackos" or "you (meaning me) socialists" or...well, you get the idea. Andy thinks invading Iraq was a good thing and doesn't much care about the weapons of mass distraction or the thousands of dead "foreigners." As far as he is concerned, 9/11 changed everything -- we're going to go do what we have to do and fuck the rest of the world. And, if this whole conflict IS about oil -- well, that's okay, too.
Andy thinks Ronald Reagan was the greatest President in US history, and wouldn't mind seeing the US as the lone reigning imperial superpower.
That's why we don't discuss politics and why Reachout has it right as far as it goes.
Anyhow, Andy doesn't like pResident Dopey either. He is beginning to realize that (a) that $480 billion deficit is a whole buttload of money, which means taxes, which means money out of AtRWR's pocket; that (b) John Asscrust and the boys have been playing it fast and loose with what remain of our Constitutional rights. Andy, unlike Bill OReally, would never tell one of us to "shut up," though he might try to shout over us. He believes that the First Amendment applies to "left-wing losers," too, and though he might like to see the USA a bit more like Nazi Germany, he doesn't really want to see it TOO much like it; and (c) he may have to start driving to Ann Arbor (80m/128k) soon to work in his pipefitting trade (yes, he's union on top of all of this). This is also more money out of his pocket.
So, the majority of the American public (making the rather specious argument that Andy represents the majority in any way, shape or form) might not agree with us on a lot of things. But they are still unhappy for their own reasons. You have to let the pot boil -- The Unelected One is getting more unpopular by the day...even among the rockheads and the ignoscenti. Junior, whatever else he is, is not really much like St Ronnie to Andy and his ilk.
He isn't going to love liberals anytime soon. But I wouldn't be too surprised if he simply chose to sit this next election out.
John
I'll pay him $20 if he does.

[MuseRider]

40. I also

see many like your friend. They don't like us but Bush* is screwing them and they like that even less. If they stay home and not vote or switch over to give us a try we will be set. I don't know how badly the voting machines can be messed with. It would seem that it would have to be mighty close for them to get away with it.

[truth2power]

48. "ignoscenti"

<snarf>

[Devils Advocate NZ]

39. You wanna know what is REALLY scary?

And take this from someone who is on the outside looking in:

Many on the American left believe the same things!

I bet I am going to get flamed for this, but you know what, it's still true.

I have been trying to point to this sort of thing for a while, although not as eloquently as reachout, and also with the idea in mind of not "insulting" my hosts (ie left wing Americans who populate this board) but the fact remains that much of the rest of the world would agree with me.

Take for example the arguments on this board before the Iraq attack. Many people that I have no doubt at all are genuine leftists still could not imagine the possibility of the US losing the war. Now that it may in fact come to pass (although I am sure people will try to redefine victory to the initial invasion only) these same people seem to have forgotten their belief that the US couldn't lose.

Another indication of what I am talking about is the idea that the US is the "leader of the free world" which I am sure many on DU would agree with while overlooking the fact that the US neither leads the world, nor is free itself.

What I am talking about is the nearly unanimous belief amongst Americans that no-one can do it (it being anything you care to name) as good as Americans, and that anything bad the US does can be blamed on the political opposition (Republicans blame Dems, and Dems blame Republicans) while ignoring the fact that BOTH camps have been equally to blame for much of what has happened and is happening.

Here is a trivial, but for me as a New Zelander, personal, example. I was watching a documentary a couple of weeks ago that was talking about K2. In it the claim was made that K2 was in fact a harder climb than Everest, and that the REAL challange was K2. When this claim was made, I turned to my girlfriend (and without any actual knowledge of the fact) said "I bet that an American was the first to climb K2", my reasoning being that it seems in American "history" if an American did it first it was a great accomplishment, and if a person of some other nationality did it first, it was no big deal.

Imagine my total lack of surprise to find out that K2 was in fact first climbed by an American. Of course the fact that it was accompished in the 30's in no way indicated to the makers of the documentary that it might in fact have been easier than climbing Everest which was not accomplished until the 50's - by a New Zealander I might add.

It is this sort of thing that people around the rest of the world are talking about when we say that Americans are arrogant. Not foreign policy (although that is also based on arrogance) but the bare bones "The US is the best and no other nation can even come close!" beliefs of most if not all Americans.

I was once walking down the street behind a group of American tourists here in Rotorua, to be shocked and insulted, although NOT surprised, when one of them said "They have McDonalds here!" with a sense of wonderment that a backward nation such as NZ should have such modern amenities as fast food joints.

What reachout is pointing to is the darker aspects of this arrogance, but the same arrogance infects all Americans (or so it would seem) - the idea that America is the best, and thus even when bad, America as a whole can not truly be faulted, because its bad sides acts come from one or two rotten eggs rather than a corrupt and immoral system that infects all its inhabitants with the same affliction, although admittedly to greatly varying degrees.

[carolinayellowdog]

41. No, not all Americans

"What reachout is pointing to is the darker aspects of this arrogance, but the same arrogance infects all Americans (or so it would seem) - the idea that America is the best, and thus even when bad, America as a whole can not truly be faulted, because its bad sides acts come from one or two rotten eggs rather than a corrupt and immoral system that infects all its inhabitants with the same affliction, although admittedly to greatly varying degrees."

Americans who are well traveled and well educated suffer from no such illusions. The more one knows of the rest of the world, the less one is prey to American exceptionalism. However, it is political suicide for any politician ever to admit that "America is the best" is open to question in any way.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

67. To bastardise a famous qoute from Lincoln:

All of the American people are arrogant some of the time, some of the American people are arrogant all of the time, but all of the American people aren't arrogant all of the time.

At least that is how it seems from here.

Actually, I will agree that some of the American people are arrogant none of the time, and in fact that may be the majority of DU, but your entire culture is based upon arrogance. From books to movies to art to music, in politics and sport in fact in every human endeavor, at one point or another, an American has pissed off the rest of the world with his arrogance.

Take that athlete at the world champs recently who chucked a hissy fit when he was disqualified from the final due to jumping the gun. I agree that he was hard done by, but can you imagine an athlete from anywhere else in the world acting the way he did that day?

I sure as hell can't, and the only similar acts I can think of also came from Americans - John McEnroe leaps to mind. In fact he became famous for being an arsehole, and it seems that not only is he proud he was an arsehole, but many Americans seem to revel in the fact that he was an arsehole.

Hell, Denis Leary pointed this out in his song "I'm an asshole" - the almost typically American idea that America's "greatness" justifies just about any act.

So yes I agree that not ALL Americans are like this, but they may as well be, because the American culture itself is based upon it, and the few who aren't are merely the exceptions that prove the rule.

[MuseRider]

70. This may or may not be

a popular attitude here but I love the insight from other people and from other countries. I may agree with your assessment but it is hard to hear. WE are the world, ya know? Thanks, even if it is hard to hear we need to hear it.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

103. I love America!

I love the America that was talked about and dreamed about by your founding fathers, I love the America that seems so neat and joyous and just and honourable as seen on the sitcoms, and in the movies and in books, I love THAT America, it just seems that THAT America never existed, and is getting further away by the day.

When I was young, and I hadn't been exposed to anything but the good stuff, I too believed that America was the greatest nation on Earth and that anything American was the best. In time I learned different, and that saddens me.

It saddens me even more to think that Americans HAVEN'T learned differently, and that this lack of education is the only thing preventing America from becoming the America that I love.

That is why I am here on DU - This place represents the closest thing to my "American Dream", even when this too is more of a preplexing and frustrating dream than the idealised version of my youth.

In fact that could be the underlying reason for the feelings of most people of the world - a profound disappointment that the reality is far from what we are told America is about. That the "American Dream" truly is a dream, and that our sometimes imperfect nations can be and often are better in some respects than the American Reality.

[MuseRider]

107. HEE HEE HEEEE

We were also brought up believing we were the best and greatest. Imagine how hard it was to learn different for us as well! One thing you said that really makes me sad is that growing up in another country you were still brought up to believe that America was the best. Idealized America is wonderful but unfortunatly we have not been able to attain it yet. Yes, I am a bleeding heart and an idealist. As unrealistic as that may be it is the way I CHOOSE to be. Maybe we can achieve our dreams but I don't think it will ever be without the rest of the world. DU is a pretty amazing place. I am glad you are here.

[MuseRider]

44. That is a painful nail you just drove home

but it is oh so true. I have traveled a lot of the world. Sometimes just my family but a few times with groups. My husband and I hate to travel with groups because as you pointed out, we can be so ugly. I still love my country but we can be real butt heads. Funny point, the first place we were taken when we arrived in Moscow was the one and only McDonalds. My family was sickened, we were looking forward to local food (turns out it was awful then) but the majority of the group was so excited that they would have one there. We stood in the rain for an hour just to get into "our" McDonalds. Your point is well taken but not all of us are like that, many here are not. It is probably the root of all these problems we are talking about. Good point.

[Clete]

56. You and I don't always see eye to eye,

but I have to half agree with you on this. Why half? Well, most of what the world sees, and even Americans see as Americans, are white people. And yes, too many white people of European extraction really believe this, not all of them though. A small majority of white people do know the difference.

White Americans dominate the scenario. It is them you see mostly on the media, tv, and screen. I too have traveled around the lower 48 states in the last ten years and I too have run across this attitude. Years ago it was Iranians. You know they held our Americans hostage, a terrible thing, but then those who looked or sounded Iranian were also the target of hate crimes.

I worked with many Iranians at the time, who were also victims of their own government because their religion was not the strict muslim variety that the Ayatollah preached. They were in fact given political asylum in this country, yet, they were often targeted by white working class Americans as being the enemy. Many Arabs and even Israelis were targets of hate crimes because they were mistaken for Iranians.

This attitude has been transferred to Iraqi's because of the first Gulf War and the war just carried on now. Be of heart though that most non-white Americans do not carry this attitude, nor the majority of whites. Unfortunately there are too many of the other kind who do. I think we have a lot of work to do in breaking down racial prejudice in this country.

Now our government, whom I don't trust, has told us that ME men carried out 9-11 and I guess we have to accept that assessment right now until there is an independent investigation of it. I wonder though if these are convenient scapegoats and excuses to colonize the ME as the PNAC documents indicate.

So I guess the point of this too large post is that because the conservative politicians in charge of our government are 99% white Americans, put in office by white Americans, who agree with their policies, it doesn't mean that the rest of us do. As a matter-of-fact the majority don't. Remember that Gore won the popular vote in this country by a wide margin.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

89. Hey, disagreement is good! If we all agreed, there would be no point...

posting would there? :-)

Although I agree that the culture I am talking about was created by Caucasian Americans, and in fact the roots of it lie in colonial attitudes transplanted to America by European immigrants before the US even existed, that does not mean that it is purely white now.

I have seen African-Americans acting with the same arrogance, as well as any number of other long term (ie intergenerational) ****-Americans. In fact it sometimes seems from the outside that only the recent immigrants to the US actually act with the kind of true greatness that was represented in the US' founding documents. It's almost like Americans have forgotten what America was supposed to stand for, and have degenerated into arrogant arseholes that feel that anything is OK as long as is wrapped in a US flag.

I have painted with a very wide brush - probably too wide - but you have to understand that this is the impression that most of the people of the rest of the world get. This is why "they hate us".

It is not one thing (foreign policy, or freedom or any other thing you care to name) it is everything - the little things, the inconsequential things, just as much as the big things.

The Iraq war was a bolt of lightning in a storm - yes, it was loud and bright, but the weather has always been bad, even though at times it is merely a gentle rain.

Some nations - those that have felt US gunboat diplomacy at first hand HATE the US, others are just mildly pissed off. But you can be sure as hell that although the idea of thousands of people dying was absolutely disgusting, there was just a little aspect of karma being felt by most people in the world. No, we didn't like to see people being killed, and we sure as hell didn't want to see what the US would do in return, but to see just a little of that arrogance be deflated did feel good. No matter how horrible that may seem.

Just think what many Americans would have felt had the Eiffel tower been bombed at the beginning of this year. It is kind of the same thing.

[jobendorfer]

74. a minor quibble

K2 was first climbed in 1954 by an Italian team.

And by almost any objective measure, K2 is a more
difficult climb than Mt. Everest. The climbing routes
are similar in the sense that on both mountains climbers are
out for long periods exposed to extreme altitude and
bad weather. But on K2 the climbing routes take the
climbers through technical rock and ice, as opposed to
the steep snow and ice slopes that characterize Everest's
south side. This makes for slower upward progress and
impedes retreats. Due to the geometry of the upper mountain,
the avalanche hazard on K2 is extreme. It's the kind
of mountain where you have to be world class, do everything
right -- and then be very, very lucky. This is borne out
by the statistics -- your chances of dying on an Everest
climb are about 1 in 400. Your chances of dying on K2 are
at least an order of magnitude higher.

However, as an American, I do agree with you about the
arrogance that underlies our (i.e., American) view of
the world. I have said many times, mostly to the deaf
ears of my countrymen, that 9/11 was a clear signal that
we had really, really pissed off a big chunk of the world
and that some introspection is called for. We need to
be working on building friendships around the world, and
all Bush & company seem to be doing is enraging everyone
further.

Sigh.

J.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

96. I stand corrected...

Although, I must now look out for that documentary again, because I'm almost certain that they said the man who reached the top first was American, although it seemed that he was an Italian-American.

Maybe, what I took to be a documentary about the first time someone reached the summit was about an earlier unsuccesful attempt. I must admit I did not watch the whole documentary.

Anyway, my apologies.

I guess I have let my cynicism towards American media boil over a little. Let's just say that it wouldn't surprise me to see the US claim somehting like this even if it wasn't true. Take for example U-571. That movie was about a US mission to capture an Enigma machine, and gave the impression that the US saved the day by doing so. It wasn't until the very end of the movie, that an explanation was made that the US was not the first, nor even second to get their hands on an Engima machine, but it still tried to give the impression that without this particular mission the other two would have been worthless, which is not true.

The fact that this piece of explanatory text happened right at the very end, when many people in movie theatres get up to leave in order to beat the rush, was also telling.

Still like I said, that is no excuse, just an explanation of why I let my prejudices get the better of me.

[coda]

165. No flames but

"American tourists...said "They have McDonalds here!" with a sense of wonderment that a backward nation such as NZ should have such modern amenities as fast food joints.



in your quote above, are you sure it isn't oversensitivity to American arrogance, that's planting the notion that they think of New Zealand as backward? Being an American, I could see their remark as falling into the catagory of ignorance just as easily i.e.: Is there somewhere that McDonalds ain't?


As far as the war, yes I though it was impossible that we would lose (the initial invasion) but I doubt that has much to do with my being American. It merely seemed practical. Even with chemical weapons considered, it was so lopsided that I doubt that many outside the Middle East doubted the eventual outcome either, though many probably thought it would last somewhat longer.

All of which is to say, I think it isn't just Americans that believe the "myth", but a lot of the world does and obviously not out of arrogance.

For instance, I don't think many 'mercuns doubt the superiority of Japanese quality in car manufacturing. The resale value of used Japanese vehicles over American makes that a glaring fact. But then again it was an American, Dr. Deming, who taught the Japanese EVERYTHING about manufacturing so.....

Ooops.

Well heck, maybe you do have a point. :-)

[Devils Advocate NZ]

171. To be honest...

in your quote above, are you sure it isn't oversensitivity to American arrogance, that's planting the notion that they think of New Zealand as backward? Being an American, I could see their remark as falling into the catagory of ignorance just as easily i.e.: Is there somewhere that McDonalds ain't?

Yes, it could be. However, I must say that this was not the only things they were saying about it. The conversation was basically: "Look they have McDonalds" "Wow! Let's go have some lunch". In other words the impression I got was that firstly they were amazed to see a McD's, then they were relieved, as they were unsure of the quality of the local food. I know it doesn't come through when you read it, but you just had to listen to the inflections in their speech as well as what they were saying to get this impression.

So yes, it may be oversensitivity, but I do believe it has some basis in truth. I really believe that these particular tourists were amazed that we would have McDonalds here, and that they were relieved that they would be able to eat some good wholesome(!) American food.

Of course there were other things that made me feel they were rather arrogant, such as the fact that the group (about ten of them) basically took up the entire sidewalk and just stood there talking, forcing those of us going somewhere to step into the street, or sort of barge our way through (of course with the usual "excuse me - pardon me") the middle of their group.

Lets just say I got the feeling that my little town (population 66,000) was rather like a theme park to them, rather than an actual community of people who had more important things to do than be performers in some sort of cultural festival.

As far as the war, yes I though it was impossible that we would lose (the initial invasion) but I doubt that has much to do with my being American. It merely seemed practical. Even with chemical weapons considered, it was so lopsided that I doubt that many outside the Middle East doubted the eventual outcome either, though many probably thought it would last somewhat longer.

The question I have for you is, do you still think it is impossible for the US to lose? Or have you restricted your definition of victory to only mean the initial invasion? In other words, can you admit that the US can not and will not successfuly occupy Iraq and that it seems the result of this invasion will be an even worse threat to US security than you started with, once the US is forced to pull out?

All of which is to say, I think it isn't just Americans that believe the "myth", but a lot of the world does and obviously not out of arrogance.

I sort of disagree with you here. The rest of the world does not believe the myth, they KNOW it is not true - they just wish it was. It is Americans that believe the myth and don't recognise that it never was.

As I said in another of my posts, I havbe intentionally painted with an overly broad brush. I know that many Americans are NOT like this, not even remotely. I also know however, that your culture IS like this. Some may reject the American culture, but it is still the American culture, and it is this culture that reverberates around the world, and is rejected.

Not all Americans are hated, in fact very few Americans are hated, but "America" is hated and it is this that causes the US problems. You see, people like Bush think that the rest of the world just doesn't know enough about America and thus don't understand how great it is, when the truth is the rest of the world knows TOO MUCH about America, and knows that no matter how much it may claim to be great, or even believe it IS great, the reality is far different.

We in the rest of the world LOVE the America that Bush talks about, but HATE the America that Bush acts like. And that extends to people like Clinton as well.

I know this will be unpopular, but "Clinton the man" was loved, hell when he came here there were mobs is the street welcoming him, but "Clinton the politician" was hated. Remember that under Clinton was when the real anti-Globalisation protests started. It seemed to me that we wanted the man, not the policies, and when Clinton was around we could seperate the two. Now is a very different story. Back then we felt that Clinton was just trying to be all things to all people, including the corporate globalists. But in Bush all we see is the culmination of that swing. The globalists have taken over, and have dropped all pretense of doing what was best for all of the people.

[Kbowe]

169. You are among the wisest to post here.

It is a real scary fact that many of those posting on this board really have a difficult time sorting out their own true biases and motives.

[onecitizen]

42. While I agree with most of............

the posters' points, I'd add also that, they just do not care. As long as everything in their own little world is OK, to hell with anyone else. As bad as we know things are, most of America IS doing OK. Until it hits them directly, they'll keep their heads buried deeply in the sand.

[AlabamaYankee]

50. Alabama - Model for the Nation

We're faced with an issue that illustrates the point beautifully. In one week there will be a statewide referendum on a large, very complex, and very Democratic (as in the Party at its best) tax reform and accountability measure that was sponsored by an ultraconservative Governor and passed by a very narroew and bipartisan majority. It will provide broad tax relief to low income fmailies, and greatly increase taxes on corporations, and large landholders, mainly the timber companies. Incredibly, although they would benefit both financially, and in the quality of their children's education, some of the strongest opposition is coming from poor whites, who need only hear the word,"tax" to be opposed. The facts of the case are irrelevant.

Alabama is indeed being used as the model for the Republican vision for the United States. Its politics are personal, local, and dominated by a couple of large interest groups and corporations who control a few key men. The bulk of the voters have been cowed into a state of apathy and cynicism; they firmly believe there is no hope for improvement.

[LeftHander]

53. I agree

There are alot of selfish, callous, stupid and worse apethetic people in this country. There is too a lot of anger and saddness from people here. (I am so guilty of this from time to time...)

The only thing we can try to do is to continue to be kind, caring and to engage, to listen and try to convince with truth and reason. Stop denying who we are. We are the heart and soul of everything that is good and true about America. Despite it being very difficult we need to continue to look for the inherent worth of all people.

[IrateCitizen]

55. I refuse to believe this defeatist tripe

While the initial poster may have hit on some themes with a certain amount of truth behind them, I think that the overall view isn't truly indicative of "America".

Bush DOES use language to influence people by keeping them in a continual state of fear and disempowering them. The Nation ran an article a while back about this very phenomenon, and how Bush uses empty language to make him out to be the savior to all of these problems facing us, without really offering concrete solutions. Hell, people are so scared they're willing to wrap their homes in plastic and duct tape to the point that they'll sufficate!

There are many people who have a desire for vengance after 9/11, and I definitely count myself in a minority as a person who looked at it as a call for self-introspection rather than revenge. But these attitudes were most definitely egged on by the media coverage and the simplistic "good vs. evil" pronouncements from the tinhorn cowboy in the WH. And as such, these kinds of attitudes can be swayed.

There are people in this country who are selfish, and there always will be. But to say that this is the prevailing view, I don't necessarily think is true. Deep down inside, people long for a sense of community -- and are more than willing to help each other out. Just look at the US during the past power blackout for proof. The crime rate in NYC was actually much LOWER than normal. If the overwhelming number of people were really completely selfish at heart, then this would not have been the case.

As for the social Darwinism model of economics, it is a result of a continual assault on the New Deal and Great Society reforms of the RW without a similar counterbalance put up by the left. It is easily seen in just the language that the author chooses -- describing "welfare queens" and the idea of "giving away tax dollars." What do you think would be the reactions of these same working class folks if you were to ask them if they liked having decent roads to drive on, or good schools to send their children to? The simple follow-up is to state that these things cost money, and that is why we have taxes. I would bet that their attitudes would be very much different -- and then the door is opened to changing their minds.

The author's overwhelming theme is one of intense defeatism, an attitude I refuse to give in to. While it may be a daunting task to fight back the tide of the RW "every man, woman and child for themselves" theory toward social engineering, it is far from impossible. More than anything it involves our need to seize the framework of language, and to begin clearly articulating (and repeating!) our basic liberal/progressive beliefs in ways that capture the attention of the general electorate, and help reinforce their more communal and cooperative tendencies rather than playing on their cold and selfish side.

[MuseRider]

60. I certainly did not see this post

as defeatist tripe. I found it an interesting take on a segment of society and something we need to think about and work on. Speaking for myself I find it interesting to hear the different takes and gnaw on them but I certainly don't feel defeated by this. It was an important view of part of the whole.

[Carmerian]

81. As someone who lives in Klan Kountry

I have to agree that I don't see things as being nearly as dire as the initial poster does, either. I think it's an incorrect generalization to think that just because there are people like this out there, that somehow their numbers must be great. I do meet plenty of bigots with some little-ots thrown in, but I just don't see them as widespread as the poster up there thinks. Heck, even here in Texas Gore got 39% of the vote in 2000, in *'s home state. The national election was pretty close, too, and this was despite the torrent of media brainwashing from RNC-TV.

[davekriss]

136. I find it very hard to be optimistic these days...

However...

If you assume that there's no hope, you guarantee that there will be no hope. If you assume that there is an instinct for freedom, there are opportunities to change things, there's a chance you may contribute to making a better world. That's your choice.
--- Noam Chomsky

...words to live by. Amen to freedom of choice!

[Ripley]

58. Cruel smart people 50%/Idiots 50%.

There ARE lots of stupid people...just look at test scores of American kids, and the fact that employers HAVE to hire Indians or Asians because so many American workers lack skills.

I also have to differ with the south-bash...lynching happened in every state of the union. There was a large exhibition in Atlanta last year that showed pictures of lynching EVERYWHERE. Indiana I believe had nearly as many as Alabama.

[NashVegas]

59. Two Thoughts

1. Reject cynicism. Nothing more to be said on that note.

2. This illustrates the need to use humor and other subtle means to get to the cynical ones. Appealing to their conscience, directly, is only going to make them even more uptight than they already are.

[Skittles]

61. AND MOST OF HIS SUPPORTERS CLAIM THEY ARE CHRISTIANS

:puke:

[camero]

148. Key word

claim- most people who are really Christian don't boast about it.
Those who do are not Christian.

[LalahLand]

82. downright scary thing to believe, I truly hope you're wrong

I'm still hoping the overwhelming support for Bush due to ignorance rather than cold cruelty. Even my own parents were taken in with Bush after the 911 tragedy. Americans are just not very interested (or too busy) to pay attention to news and politics. I'm the only person (in my age group) I know who cares.

[mitchtv]

85. sorry, I don't buy that"many unions are blatanly anti-immigrant

rather many non union americans are anti union, and don't realize the benefits they have, whether represented or not, come from unions.while there maybe some of the higher paid,more exclusive unions may guard their turf. it is usually guarded against ALL comers 'cept relatives. Cerainly not restaurant& hotel& laborers . to say anti immigrant is unfair .

[Clete]

87. Knocking your head against a brick wall.

I have the same problem with the younger women in my family. They don't realize the good jobs and good wages they have today is because of us old broads who burned our bras for them.

[Starpass]

102. Clete and Mitch---Amen

n/t

[TacticalPeek]

86. The parallel with the Southern lynchings (and elsewhere)

that today rings loudest in my ears is the yellow journalism, a key enabler then and now.

Another parallel, which I realize I bend to my purpose, is "Know-Nothingism", from the 19th century political party. The name was more about their original secrecy, when they were the secret Order of the Star Spangled Banner, which members would "know nothing" about. But I always associate their "knowingnothing" with an incapacity for self-examination, or really any examination or accounting. Like chesley #35 above, "I dunno. Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out."

http://gi.grolier.com/presidents/aae/side/knownot.html
http://concise.britannica.com/ebc/article?eu=394616


And that parallels another recurrent American political theme, anti-intellectualism. I trace some of today's incarnation to former professors Gingrich, Armey and Graham.

from Todd Gitlin:

snip
Probing for historical roots of a mood that was sweeping (if somewhat exaggerated by intellectuals), Hofstadter found that "our
anti-intellectualism is, in fact, older than our national identity." He cited, among others, the Puritan John Cotton, who wrote in
1642, "The more learned and witty you bee, the more fit to act for Satan will you bee"; and Baynard R. Hall, who wrote in
1843 of frontier Indiana: "We always preferred an ignorant bad man to a talented one, and hence attempts were usually made
to ruin the moral character of a smart candidate; since unhappily smartness and wickedness were supposed to be generally
coupled, and incompetence and goodness."
snip

http://www.biology.eku.edu/RITCHISO/antiintellect.html

[Bake]

92. Indubitably, there are many like that

But they are not the majority -- as has been pointed out above, witness Election 2000. Even more, look at the number of of likely Dem voters who were turned away from the polls, and the number who are likely Dem voters but whether due to apathy, fatigue, or just lack of motivation and/or despondency, didn't even try to make it to the polls.

What we're seeing is a very vocal, loud-mouthed, publicity-grabbing, media-promoted minority. They may be a LARGE minority, but still a minority.

I still believe in the GOOD PEOPLE who live in this country (silly me!). Our job is to encourage them, to motivate them, to energize them, and to empower them.

Bake

[Not a robought]

95. You have discovered the secret key to the magic holy grail:

"...but he performs like an old-time tent preacher. He speaks with anger and passion and they love him for it."

BINGO!

[TheBigGuy]

98. sounds like common sense to me.

Ive always pretty much thought what this guy has said, which is one reason Im pretty pessimisitic about progressive politics.

[neuvocat]

104. Wrong.

Al Gore is the expression of what was in the heart of millions of voters when the election was stolen.

'Nuff said.

[IrateCitizen]

108. A small disagreement...

Al Gore is the expression of what was in the heart of millions of voters when the election was stolen.

While this may be true, what was in the hearts of more potential voters than Gore and Bush put together was, "The system doesn't represent me, so why bother?"

And yet, for all of this voter apathy that is summed up by simply stating, "People don't care about politics;" membership in activist organizations has increased significantly over the past 10-12 years while voter turnout has declined.

What does all of this say? I'd interpret it as a growing number of people completely disillusioned by the system, while seeking recourse OUTSIDE of it.

[Terran]

106. I have an alternative view

I have lived in two opposite extremes, geographically and politically. I spent most of my adult life up to the age of 34 in the San Francisco Bay Area, the last seven in S.F. itself. And then I moved to Central Missouri, which, apart from a couple of towns ranging from 30,000 to 50,000, is almost entirely rural. To most people here, where I live, in the State Capitol of 30,000 people, is the Big City.

I too have talked to a lot of Republicans who live here, and they are in the majority, even though Missouri is a majority Democratic state thanks to St. Louis and Kansas City. I have found that these people, at least the ones I know, don't have this dark cruelty the poster spoke of; nor are they stupid. What they are is something that lies in between: a very bad combination of ignorant and intellectually lazy.

Despite this being the age of instant communication and full-time news and entertainment from around the world, people here still have a mindset dating from before the invention of radio, I think (and I think this idea may be extended to any place in the country that was formerly isolated by geography from any big city). Despite all the information that is available to them, people here continue to indulge in the idea that nothing much that happens "out there" is of any importance, nor has any immediate relevance to them.

I have encountered appalling ignorance of basic knowledge about how the federal government works, about major national and international news stories, and about current thinking regarding social issues and social mores. I have encountered thinking about America's ethnic minorities that is half a century out of date--not because the people involved were bigoted, but simply that their ideas on the subject had utterly failed to be updated for literally decades. Some of the biggest news stories of the past forty years--our defeat in Vietnam, Watergate, the civil rights movement, have barely made an impact here. Of course, larger social forces at work have had their influence; a lot of households here now have two working parents, but I bet the proportion is far less than in any big city. Other trends, like the Internet and having 500 channels, have overtaken these people whether they like it or not, and will eventually have a significant impact. But those are still all relatively new here, as weird as that sounds.

So, in my opinion, it's not that there's a pernicious preference for George Bush in America; what's going on here is that these people prefer to remain uninvolved with what's going on here, because that is how it has always been for them. They don't want to KNOW because it doesn't matter to them. It's simply easier, from any way they look at it, to just accept what is at face value.


Dirk

[MuseRider]

115. One comment

from the "big city" in Kansas. Hi Missouri! One thing you might not have taken into account is that rural people do not have the constant access to the computers that they may have in their homes. I am not making any excuses but these folk are out working on tractors from sun up to sun down so it is no wonder they don't keep up. All they want to know when they get home is who is going to help them make ends meet after a drought and a flood and the HUGE company farm down the road who has slashed prices. It may be that they would care if they ever had a chance. I have a farm, work with a lot of these people. My farm is not my livelihood so I am here all day on my computer today (it is muddy, yuk) so I spread a lot of this news. I find they are quite responsive but they still need to put food on their families.

[MODemocrat]

109. Sure, they love it be cause he's lowered the bar

and makes them feel "equal or superior."

[Kbowe]

117. BINGO!!!!!!!!!

Been saying this all along. Many of the same reasons they voted for a jerk like Reagan. He made them "fell comfortable with their prejudices." (Rosalyn Carter)

They don't believe that these policies are hurting them also (how else to get 19% of Americans to believe that they are in the top 1%?). They gladly cut off their noses to spite their faces so long as they know they are hurting people who don't look, think, or act like them. YOU HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD

[Emillereid]

124. The American myth rests on American Exceptionalism --

we are fed the specialness of America from birth (as is much of the world) so much that we come to believe that we are the center of the universe. Even those of us who criticize American policies and ache for us to live up to our principles and the myths of own making re: liberty and equality for all -- still filter everything through American centrality. Most of the world pays attention to what America's does not because they love us or want to be us, but because we are such a behemoth, that it is in their interests to observe us carefully, lest we move and step on them. We believe ourselves unique in history, god chosen, the great experiment, etc. etc. We proudly boast that we are the greatest nation, the beacon on the hill etc. I cringe at our lack of modesty, our lack of self examination and self reflectiveness. I'm horrified in how we expect the world to mourn and attend to our tragedies such as 911 or MIAs in Vietnam, but not do the same when horrors happen to other people , ie., where's the outpouring of American grief for the French dead this August or the Muslims killed by terrorists acts or the millions dead in Africa or the Iraqi soldiers who were unceremoniously buried (some alive) in the desert, etc. etc. etc. Like a spoiled child we expect everyone to attend to us all the time. Even my conservative brother in law admits that he's embarrassed when he travel's abroad at how 'ugly' Americans have become -- and yes he's one of those so called Darwinian 'realists' who believes it's a matter of survival (of our lifestyles) to steal Iraqi oil and that's it's ok to take care of one's own at the expense of others -- it's how the game of life is played. It's a winner take all game. It's other name is fascism. And poor, stupid Americans fill their empty pockets with tribal pride instead of money -- suckers.

It's hyper racism -- down deep we believe we are better or more important than other people --even when we attempt to be a force for good. As Chambers Johnson points out -- we're in everyone's face, interfering in their business, driving them all crazy. The irony is that although we lead the world in some good areas, we also lead the world in being the worst or not so good in a lot of other ways. And like individual racism, America needs to collectively work on its ego problem; it's xenophobia; its fear and paranoia of the other -- get our heads our of the fantasy clouds and realize the shit we're standing in; we need to stop our pompous, imperial posturing and join the real human race. As Brian Wilson says: "We are not worth more, they are not worth less."

Nonetheless, a part of me holds out with optimism that Jim Hightower is right that there are enough good, ole fashioned, rebellious cusses in this country to take it back from the plutocrats -- God I hope so cause we sure are building up some real bad karma.

[devinsgram]

131. Just finished reading Al Franken's book

and it is fabulous. I think everybody needs to read it and see the lies and lies and lies and lies that have been told. Now here is my question?
Why are people believing anything that those clowns in the White House say?
It amazes me how literally stupid some Americans can be. Evidently the Invasion of Brain Snatchers has begone. Every day I become more scare. I am so frighten of what is going to happen to us if we do not get Baby Bush out of the White House.

[Kbowe]

168. Go back and read this original post...there's your answer.

eom

[Don_G]

137. You Don't Have To Have A Thousand Posts

To speak in an intellegent manner. Maybe he/she just discovered DU.

I'm looking foreward to reading more from Reachout and everyone here.

[RedEarth]

138. Reachout....it couldn't have been said better

I think you are exactly right. The discussions I have had with repubs gives me the same feelings...cruel, selfish people. Thanks for the post Starpass!!!

[Kbowe]

139. Just kicking for the west coast....they need a reality check!

This is the real America!

[TacticalPeek]

140. Kick. n/t

[undergroundpanther]

145. Long post

Lone Star Liberal said:"In the Republican view of America, inequality is just another feature of the landscape. In their view of America, we don't need to try to do anything about it because it is simply all part of the natural order of things. Having an unprotected underclass also helps to keep the workaholics above them suitably terrified so that they don't get too "uppity" and start demanding better working conditions, more insurance coverage, or anything that would get in the way of squeezing greater profits out of them.

Their cynically-shaped American dream is that any policy attempting to assist the poor that requires taxes is a hinderance to everyone's opportunity to "make it," even though very, very few ever do make it. The cynical, selfish, and malicious part of this is that people buy into this all the time even though they know deep down they will never have it; it is all about the opportunity versus the reality".

I got a long comment here on Lone Star's thought; Please bear with me.
I read the latest issue of National Geographic yesterday. Not only did it have a good article on Zebras,it had another article on modern day slavery.It had an interveiew with a former slave.It had stories statistics ect.I reccomend the article.
In the Interveiw this former slave said what made people get hooked into slavery was *The hope for a better future* than the desperation they currently faced.(Oh the American dream and where this persuit of happiness leads us!)In slavery she could not stop the beatings by herself she had to endure..she tried to escape and was caught and beaten..She said some of her fellow slaves feared freedom.
She finally escaped because someone empathized with her. She was lucky.
Slaves are taught in traumatic ways to not desire freedom.Aversion therapy at the hands of an abuser who profits in the sale of human beings made into property.

I also read Scientific American's latest issue.The brain Issue.They were talking about the problem of anxiety,stress and depression.
They discribed a particularly barbaric experiament with rats where the rat cage had a bottom that shocked the rats. At first when the rat was shocked the rat pressed a bar and the shock stopped immediately .The Rats brain was flooded with endorphins..(the glow of sucess and feeling in control and on top of the world )(is it the same feeling a Ceo gets when he sees his profits soar?)(is it the same feeling one gets on speed or cocaine)
Then the barbaric scientists made the bar work half assed, they made it unpredictable. The Rat when shocked went frantic,like usual pressing the bar like crazy, on and on until the shock stopped.. He showed alot of stress damage in his brain..he was spent..Then endorphins returned tho.
Then they shocked the rat again..This time the bar wouldn't work at all.The rat pressed the bar to no avail,he clawed,cried,leaped off the floor to escape the pain.tried again and again.frantic..
Eventually when the rat realized he could do nothing to improve his lot the rat gave up,he lay there in a stupor getting zapped, he acted depressed after the shocks stopped for a long time because his endorphins were depleted from the stress and not being able to help himself. Nowhere to run,no one to fight no way to make it stop.He suffered serious brain damage.

The article seemed to conclude stress induced brain damage could occur when a child picked on in school,a child abused by adults..or a person who's safety and stability is threatened day in day out..
I look at America,I see how sad we are,how afraid ,how alone,I see how keeping up with work or presenting the right appearances is a constant threat,terrorism the news,or police on every corner cameras at the stop light.It's enough to turn anyone into a depressed ,hostile asshole.

The more I think about it the more I notice how we are like the rats,in a psychological shock chamber..and we cannot figure a way out of this current way of life because it is all we know.If the economy crashed what would we DO? Oh no..(it might be what enables humans to survive as a species BTW)So we press the bar in our own way .Which often amounts to giving bits of our own power and dignity away,giving our rights away,giving away the time with family for work,giving away our communities,because we are too spent to think of consequences, or get involved or care after the daily zapping is done.Collapse in front of the tube after work and decompress!

We give ourselves away day after day for the hope that it will stop the stress in the future..We give away our kids to daycare because we have too much to do to survive.We go on hoping for a better future in our dreams when the bill collectors are paid off,the mortgage is done,The kids are gone and we can REST. We have no guaruntees this will happen no matter how much we try. When alot of people face traumas they will sell the world and themself down the river for our own escape and sucess RIGHT NOW or we can comprimise if we get a promise this will to occur someday in the future.

Anxiety is caused when the stress reaction in the brain is locked in and cannot stop itself. Often retired persons cannot stop working,people feel anxious on vacation,like the other shoe will drop.
When the rat feared a zap he pressed the bar,almost like pavlov's dogs.
The pain are we avoiding is a form of social/psychic pains like debt..deprivation..shame...failure..(figments of collective social imagination and fiscal belief based hogwash)..People so easily are horrified by the idea of homelessness.The Threat of being homeless alone gets some corporations free overtime out of some people.It has some folks feigning loyalties even to thier own detriment..We desperately do not want to be the unfortunate ones on the floor of the social cage zapped endlessly by those who we trust to feed us and bring us what products we consume and desire..
What are we conditioning into ourselves with these carrots and sticks?

Yet that is exactly what is happening to us.

We Pretend, evade and play games,placate authorities,set up heros and representatives, act like assholes,buy useless crap..anything to escape the pain of now and then.So when I see the hostility and selfishness in America,I also remember a recent statistic about depression that said 1 in 4 people in thew US are clinically depressed. When you are hit with depression you reset priorities,and if you can't you might die.How many more people are addicted, have eating disorders,in abusive relationships,got sociopathic issues,anxious,got PTSD,or schizoprenia?
How many people feel trapped pressured and unhappy today and afraid of the future?Ever notice when someone is peddling a religion or political belief or some product to you they eventually always ask you if you are you unhappy? Assuming a change of framework, a new zit creme, a belief or 'leadership' can simply erase the ingrained trauma that burns our braincells away and physically stunts our very neurons,Is sad and delusional and it generates endorphins.

Trauma distorts our ability to remember and learn the lessons from past traumas (The details that led up to the trauma so they will not be repeated).Traumas occur to all living things in the act of of existing.And it is made worse by living in such a sick culture as ours.When you go into a nursery and one baby bawls..it's cry spreads and all of the babies start to cry..As we gruow up and become civilized we are taught to not do this,to not empathize like babies do with the sound of human distress.Why? We are taught to turn away,to not get involved,to let other people fixit,..by something..
For some a change of religion offers a numbing, distrating addictive salve and it helps them cope and they drop out of the religion when it no longer is needed...It's well known religious/financial/political groups target,the disoriented, lonely outcasts who feel downtrodden.Average membership in a cultic group is 2 years.

Looks like Hope is marketed most heavily to those who feel too much like the rat on the bottom of the cage who cannot stop the jolts.Escapist optimism does nothing to adress the entire idea that underpins our human cultures that jolting vunerable human beings or rats for that matter with media,threats,peer pressure or whatever..to make them conform ,buy,believe and not empathize with human distress is insane.Yet it happens all the time.Is a new belief just a way to cover the pain of this human condition and mask the slow suicide of humanity and forgive ourselves for this compulsive murder of a planet for the love of money,power and prestige.

There was once a time when these things were not so important...
I fear with all the pollution,the traumas,delusions,ignorance,arrogance..our collective excesses and the overpopulation issue we can't survive our most insane invention,this way of life in this kind of civilization.

[Emillereid]

157. And we want to export this wonderful lifestyle to others --

so they too can run themselves ragged, dog eat dogging it, late for some mind numbing work, stuck on some freeway, breathing in toxic gases, mutant cells growing beneath the surface, charging up the life credits buying stuff they don't know what to do with! You better believe stress kills, slower than a bullet, but long enough to mortgage your soul and your first born grandchild, going to first one doctor then another, searching for the magic elixir to make it all better.

[zeemike]

141. I missed it the first time

But this forum is so vast that is to be expected. But the poster knows what he is talking about.

[Cronus Protagonist]

142. Bang! Drove that one home in one hit!

That should be an article on the home page. It needs wider dissemination.

Click Here To See Fair & Balanced Buttons, Stickers & Magnets!>

[imhotep]

143. Has my vote

for the best post, EVER !

[Pobeka]

144. 99% bullshit, 1% truth

Pardon my "french". I challenge anyone to find a cuss-word in any of my posts, so take me seriously when I say:

WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU ALL THINKING?

This is bait, of the worst kind. And we are the fish.

True, people want the best for themselves.
But also true, only a progressive society can delivers that to the entire cross-section of citizens.

Our problem is marketing, getting our message out. Getting the facts out.

WE CANNOT POSSIBLY SUCCEED IF WE INSULT THE OUR TARGET MARKET!!!

The target market is those swing voters (the 99%), who also want the best for themselves, but will turn their back on us in an instant if we tell them they are greedy, mean sons-of-bitches.

We absolutely better start figuring out how to talk to those target market people, and fast, in order to spread our message, or we are going in the tank.

I'm going to bed. Hope you all think about this awfully hard tonight.

[undergroundpanther]

146. Sell?

Sell? what!!!?

Why should I bother to flatter the blsated egos of selfish ,hypocritical,arrogant people with no integrity and tell them they are OK when they are not ok?
Maybe they should feel guilty and ashamed of thier habits.Honesty might not make you popular but at least you got your integrity and aren't a liar too.

Isn't that marketing mindset the exact sort of mindfuck that got us into this mess?
When people forget character and think like salesmen and grab for a piece they tend to coddle the bullies,flatter the arrogant, and excuse the exploiters,and suck the ass of the wealthy.

Notice that Bush Whistle Ass has an entire marketing clean up crew paid for with our tax dollars and the coroprate class to excuse him when he treats people like scum and trips over his own feet and pisses off other nations.

Maybe it's time to quit marketing illusions to each other and look at reality.You know the one we made together,the one that's slowly killing us all and making us crazy..

[opstachuck]

147. I sympathize with your remarks; however...

Having been born in and having lived most of my life in the South I am well aware of the insidious nature that permeates the politics and governance of the Southern society. I am well aware that the people are less cognizant of the respective causes of social problems and that they focus their attention on motivations fueled by fear and greed rather than hope; however, we canot dismiss the circumstances that might foster the situation. Most Southern and rural states are economically deficient of resources to nurture their society. I'm from New Orleans and there is an incredible amount of racism and prejudice still brewing there. Do I blame it on the people? many of whom I know and love and respect? No. They too are victims of our unjust system. Granted, they have more wealth than under-represented minorities who are the most blatant victims of the economic structure, but that should not discredit the reality of their situation. In my city, New Orleans, the first thing I was told by my mother and step-father when I received my driver's license was "if you suspect anyone of car-jacking you, do not be afraid to run a red light." My uncle saw someone get shot in the face point-blank only one block away from our house. Me, my mother and my cousin were held up at gun-point on our front porch, as was my friend's mother who lived across the street from us. As a six year old child i was run over by someone who was in the process of stealing a bike from someone in our Audubon Park. Our house was broken into several times and I knew many people who had similar experiences. And we lived in a good neighborhood! But what is the lesson to be learned here? I think it depends on where you are in life. These things happened to me as a child and it was simply the life I knew. As I grew up, I saw it more and more as being less fortunate people grasping at straws and desparately searching for an escape from their situation. My parents, my family, and many of my friends, however, were too fearful of their situation to recognize that. They had lived in these areas most of their lives and had known relative comfort and safety for a long time. Fear is a major motivating factor in politics and it pulls people who are in compromised situations under its influence (i.e. the KKK). But people in these situations are just as idealistic as anyone else. The problem they have is that they don't have anyone to show them any different because all they see around them is depravity and hopelessness. Why else would they be so much more religious and dogmatic about their beliefs than the rest of us? They ARE NOT LESS INTELLIGENT than the average urban, well-informed citizen. They ARE LESS FORTUNATE and they should be respected for having grown up in a compromised environment where their schools are not good enough, in addition to most of their social services. The point of all of this blabbering is to point out that while one may recognize the symptoms of a given situation, to truly understand how to deal with it (i'm not saying i do - hopefully someone will) that you have to walk in their shoes for just a bit and try to be compassionate with the people you wish to "enlighten". We are not dealing with idiots. We are are dealing with people who have seen no hope. if we don't provide them with hope then we're riding a slippery slope to nowhere. We need to find a common purpose that we can ALL respect - this will take some finese in more rural places, but don't blame it on them, if you do then we really are lost because they are just as American as the rest of us. We need them to see that they are one of 'US' before we can make any real progress, and then, when we are finally on the same page we will be a stronger society for it.

good night.

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

161. yeah yoo rite

noo orleans
Grew up there bra.

Moved to L.A.
Hope you find a better neighborhood.
All of N.O is not like that

peace.

[Merlin]

151. Thanks for reposting this.

This should be required reading for all of us, about once each week until we get it through our thick heads, and begin to truly understand the electoral mileau in which we are ensconced.

Wow!

[eablair3]

159. thanks for the post and the kicks

I think the poster is correct, but I think there is way too much generalization in the post. It's a good post, and I think it may be right with respect to many people -- they know many of the facts and truth and are still in favor of the Repub/wealthy objectives to promote the wealthy interests.

But, there are many many others who just don't know the facts and have the information. Once they realize it (and it takes a long time with repetitive, reasoned, factual positions that can't really be refuted), then I've experienced some Repug stalwarts start to re-think things, and even acknowledge that it drives them crazy that what they believed may not be right. I've seen some just seem to be in a state of disbelief and perhaps shock at the awakening. I've seen some Dems experience this as well.

[shatoga]

163. Re-Posted at another forum/ Thanks for the wise words!

I couldn't think of better words to express what Reachout wrote.

Posted as:
"a perfectly acceptable president"

http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/ubb/Forum6/HTML/001373.html

[Brewman_Jax]

164. That's a good point--we have an uphill battle

http://www.ajc.com/print/content/epaper/editions/sunday/news_f315391f608162af0001.html

This article was in Sunday's AJC about the demographic group "NASCAR dads." The very mentality noted in Reachout's post. If this is who we'd like to convert, we've got an uphill battle. There are none so ignorant as the willfully ignorant.