Does America Have To Hit Rock-Bottom Before Everyone Else Wakes UP??

[arwalden]

Are we like an alcoholic who's in denial and who will only do something about it once he finally realizes that it's just not normal to wake up in a pool of his own liquor-vomit every day.

How bad will things have to get? How horrible will the economy have to be? How many civilians must die? How many of our troops must be sacrificed?

What's the breaking point?

What one event could break this administration?

I hate to see it happen to our country, I hate to see the suffering of innocents. But, whatever it is, I hope it happens soon.

America needs a wake up call!

-- Allen

[Nordic]

1. my worst fear is exactly that

I said it long ago on DU that I could only see it getting much worse before it can get better.

Look at what it took for a European unification to occur. WWII.

Basically Europe was destroyed before it found peace.

I'm afraid the same will be true of the United States.

Yes, Americans are that stupid. America is an adolescent country, full of itself, a bully, too inexperienced to listen to the wisdom of countries older than it.

Like any adolescent bully, it's gonna have to get its ass kicked, and kicked badly, before it grows up.

[Mz Pip]

2. In a word, yes.

Unfortunately, it may take awhile. We lost 58,000 troops in Vietnam before the war ended and even then there were those who thought we should have stayed longer.

Lagging economy, growing world disfavor, rising deficits but we've got a good Christian man with strong moral values in the White House and for a lot of people that seems to be enough. Go figure.

MzPip
:dem:

[L84TEA]

3. ARgh....

I sure HOPE not!
I am soo scared!

[rkc3]

4. It's going to take a lot.

The bush supporters are still mad at Clinton and his low morals. They seem to be able to forgive bush of everything, despite the overwhelming facts against him.

It seems like any bad thing that could possibly happen (e.g., recession/depression, terror attack, another war in the Mid East, allies speaking out against us, etc.) could be deflected by this group. The problem will always be that the Dems wouldn't fully support the Admin's efforts - so they'll always walk away unscathed.

Even if the Dems supported a move that failed, they'd find a way to push it off on someone else.

[GreenPartyVoter]

5. I fear that is true.

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Help expose the election 2004 voter fraud today!
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[stellanoir]

6. One of my favorite people on this planet. . .

is an outrageously funny friend from CA. He gets a kick out of everything and is a bit of a clown. He's the originator of "Sierra Shorts. . .the show that rides up on you."

http://sierrashorts.com/

He's been living in China for the past several years so his imput has been marginal lately.

Early on in the * administration I was ranting about the bold faced lies they were telling and he said the most negative thing I've ever heard him utter. It was, "(my real name), people will not revolt in this country until they are mostly starving." It put a chill in my bones for fear that he, the most positive person I know, may have been totally accurate in dire prognostication.

[robbedvoter]

7. Having lived through 35 years of dictatorship (same guy)

I am hear to tell you rock bottom is not some point in time or space where you bounce back from - but an infinite black tunnel. This Nader theory is naive and destructive. Fascism is not bunji jumping!
You may not see democracy in your life time - that's what's at stake.

[Magleetis]

8. The sooner we get there the better

IMHO we are well on our way.

[cassiepriam]

9. yes it will have to get very bad for reality to hit

And even then many will still blame others....

[sweetheart]

10. The US is now a big corporation

... and corporations only change when they go bankrupt... otherwise,
the standard response to any issue, is to sell the product, which
in this case is military imperium. To make ends meet, they'll
asset strip everything down to the wallpaper... and only then when
there is nothing left, and the paper whirlwind that has kept the
country afloat in speculative fervor for the past decades will
come crashing down in nationwide chapter 7 bankruptcy.

[PhuLoi]

11. The usual time required for civil insurection is measured in

missed meals. Three to four meals will usually start the process. A full week without a meal and all bets are off.

[PhuLoi]

12. The usual time required for civil insurection is measured in

missed meals. Three to four meals will usually start the process. A full week without a meal and all bets are off.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

14. What it took in other countries:

Conquest by a foreign power (us): Germany, Japan, Italy

Top-down initiatives: The Soviet Union loosening up on its minority republics and satellites in Eastern Europe and looking the other way as they declared independence

An utterly ruined economy after years of repression: Chile

The repressive generals losing a war: Argentina

World-wide pressure coupled with internal resistance and a guerilla movement: South Africa

Death of the dictator with no succssor strong enough to retain control: Spain, Portugal

China has changed tremendously in the past twenty years, but movements toward real democracy (not just capitalism) were crushed decisively at Tiananmen. When we were traveling in China in 1990, we heard that troops were sent to all the universities in China after Tiananmen, just to keep the lid on, and that troops also came out in full force on the anniversary.

[TahitiNut]

15. Such 'bottoms' can only be seen in hindsight.

Yes, that's a pun. (bottom=hind) It's also a truism very much like "you always find what you're seeking in the last place you look." (What idiot would keep searching?)

The Nader Hypothesis: America is going to the fascist dogs. The Republicans go there quickly and the Democrats go there slowly. The faster, the better. (Insert frogs-in-boiling-water analogy here.)

[the Princess]

16. I have asked those same questions

And I don't have an answer. But I wonder why so many of us Dems seem to just want to give up and accept that this election was stolen and there is nothing we can do. Why aren't more Dems ANGRY as hell?????? I really don't get it. I'm not willing to watch another 4 years of this administration. I am not willing to sit idly by and watch my country go down the drain. I'm just not. Where are the rest of the angry people? Why are we being quiet? Why are we not raising our voices in protest? I'm stunned and confused - but most of all DAMN ANGRY!

Am I alone?

[Mend]

17. Probably the Draft

will get things shaken up.....major protests will break out.

[robbedvoter]

18. ROCK BOTTOM DOESN"T EXIST! it's a bottomless pitt - endless fall

I lived it once. There's no end to greed, hatred, oppression. Unless we do something.

[el_gato]

20. we may be on a one way trip

You have a good point there rv.

[ilovenicepeople]

19. YEP!!!

"It's never to late to be a pessimist!"

[m berst]

21. we will know soon

The next few weeks will be the last opportunity to turn things around without a terrible calamity and unimaginable horrors.

People are hoping for "an easier triumph" and "result less fundamental and astounding" in the words of Old Abe.

"Neither party expected for the war, the magnitude, or the duration, which it has already attained. Neither anticipated that the cause of the conflict might cease with, or even before, the conflict itself should cease. Each looked for an easier triumph, and a result less fundamental and astounding. Both read the same Bible, and pray to the same God; and each invokes His aid against the other. It may seem strange that any men should dare to ask a just God's assistance in wringing their bread from the sweat of other men's faces; but let us judge not, that we be not judged. The prayers of both could not be answered; that of neither has been answered fully. The Almighty has His own purposes."

-- March 4, 1865 - Lincoln's Second Inaugural Address

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

22. Short answer. Yes.

When enough body bags come home, when enough money has been thrown away and the American people realize that they're going broke paying for the war, then it will end.

Until then, they will remain under the spell of the flag waving, "support our troops", "peace with honor", "spreading democracy", load of crappola to justify the bloodbath.

It took years, 58,000 American dead, near bankruptcy, and near revolution in this country to finally end the debacle in Vietnam.

Incredibly, in the face of all the evidence to the contrary, the American people still cling to the notion that we can win the "war" in the middle east with brute force. A war that is already lost.

Not a single one of the goals that we allegedly went to war in Iraq for, has been met. In fact, the number one goal, "the fight against terror", has been ascerbated by the "war".

We now have more, and more determined, enemies who have been emboldened by our much vaunted, high-tech, military's inability to control a third world nation that was supposedly defeated.

Sorta like treating yourself for head lice with a hammer.

[cmf]

23. They will wake up when

Their TV doesn't work, the malls disappear, and there's no gas to fuel their SUVs. Until then, everyone is too comforatble to wake up.

[bemildred]

24. Yes. nt

[TankLV]

25. Yes - unfortunately.

These next few years will not be pretty.

Liked the last 4 - wait till after 4 more!

[BillZBubb]

26. Yes, it has always been that way.

People in the United States remain in a conservative stupor until something hits THEM over the head. They have little empathy for others, but when it affects THEM, they see the light.

Once that happens we get a progressive era, which soon starts to fade as what has affected THEM gets solved. The conservatives then jump to the fore by blasting progressive policies that help others, but not THEM.

[Triana]

27. Remember the Great Depression?

Well, your Mamma probably does. Things will HAVE to get TWICE THAT BAD before anyone snaps out of it it. People are DENSE...

[harpo]

28. yes because they are misled by the leadership on how great things are

[okieinpain]

29. yep. fat and lazy we are, fat and lazy.

[maxsolomon]

30. $5/gallon

that's the tipping point.

buy guns now, because the suburbanites are going to blame the liberals.

[ImpeachBush]

31. I agree - something devastating will have to happen.

I worry so about my elderly parents, and about myself when I hit that age where I'm no longer valued as an employee and have no means to earn a wage to provide myself housing and feed myself. All this BS about a national sales tax (no income tax) really will bite the poor and middle class BIG TIME. Privatizing social security will be the death of so many. And I'm really concerned about the regime of hatred being geared up against gay americans - it's the gay population now, but who knows who'll be next?

This is what it will take to change the minds of the stupid and ignorant in this country:

1. Drafting young people into the war - maybe then the idle young will wake up and get involed in their own lives.

2. Massive loss of jobs (as if it wasn't bad enough already) and no unemployment benefits.

3. Constant terrorism on our home turf - I fear this will start soon, thanks to our policies towards the Arab countries.

4. Food shortages, thanks to dimished FDA regulations and increased pollution.

5. Rapid increase of violent crime as policemen are laid off, people fight for dimishing food supplies, gun control is ignored, and government sponsored drug dealership in the inner city grows.

6. Decline of public education - only the rich get to go to schools that really teach something. No more federal education grants. No more student loans. No affirmative action.

7. Massive epidemics of diseases once easily controlled by vaccines and preventative health care.

8. The world banks start calling in the markers on this huge debt of ours.

Then again, it may be as simple as increasing government control of the entertainment industry. Stupid people will freak out when there's no more T&A, bang-bang-shoot-em-up movies out on the market - only jesus films and lock-step-love-your-country films. And alcohol laws get so tight the rednecks have to start making moonshine to cop a buzz, but they don't know how to distill the beverage because they can't add or read or think for themselves.

[NewJeffCT]

32. It is beyond the Great Depression

Republican excesses from the 1920s led to the Great Depression and 20 years of Democrats in the White House, and it also led to an extended dominance in Congress, especially the House.

However, if we have another Great Depression or similar - rampant inflation or deflation - the RW control of the media will allow them to spread the blame elsewhere. It will be because the Democrats blocked the Bush energy bill... it will be because the UN, those decadent European Leftists and George Soros have it in for us.

If terrorists blow off a nuclear bomb in a US city or blow up a nuclear power plant, it will be because Bill Clinton did not take Osama's head on a platter when the Sudan offered it to him 3 times... and, it will also be because John Kerry & John Edwards voted against the $87 billion... and because people speaking out against the war in Iraq at home have emboldened the terrorists.

[ladjf]

33. Yes, and while we are at rock bottom, international competition

will exploit our weaknesses, perhaps in ways that will be rather permanent.