I'm a Democrat BECAUSE I'm a Christian. Stop bashing me!

[funky_bug]

I'm sick to death of all these "fuck the religious right" posts. You know, I am a Christian, and that's why I'm a Dem... that's why I'm a liberal. I believe in giving all I have for "the least of these" and I believe in treating my neighbor the way I want to be treated.

I believe in free will, I believe in action and consequence. I believe in miracles and the power of prayer. I believe in God, and I believe Jesus is not a figment or a parable.

I believe in freedom of religion, I believe in ALL faiths... Buddhism rocks, and I think the Amish have a lot of things dead-on right. I've committed many Rumi verses to heart, and I read Kahlil Gibran daily. I can tell you what planet I was born under, and I don't discount the presence of spirits who haunt the earth.

So if I can be accepting of all faiths, beliefs OR LACKTHEREOF, then what right do you have to tell me to fuck off? What right do any of you have to assume YOUR RIGHTS SUPERCEDE THE RIGHTS OF OTHERS? It amazes me that the same people bitching about the religious right and their theocracy, are also extolling their own beliefs as the only ones this party should adopt.

Hypocrasy swings both ways you know.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wryter2000]

It's not that black and white

There are lots of Christians who aren't part of the religious right. I thought we could make intelligent distinctions here on DU.

[DrWeird]

5. The Religious right aren't even real Christians.

The OP was complaining about criticism of the religious right.

[goddess40]

94. you're right - and we have to stop giving them a pass to the fake ones

When some right wing fundies starts their crap of entitlement because the are 'Christians' they need to be stopped in their tracks. Not just by non-Christan's but by the real Christians, especially by the real Christians. Until we stop babying them, they won't ever stop.

[Lizz612]

35. I think Dr. Weird was perfectly clear

Fuck the religious right. I think that describes the group we are pissed off at pretty well. Yes it is up to each person to be a clear writer, but it is also important for the reader to not read too far into things

[funky_bug]

12. Fuck the small minded bullies

There's room for everyone, but small minded bullies need therapy... or whiskey... whatever chills them out.

[DrWeird]

14. Yes. religious right = small minded bullies.

Or haven't you been paying attention?

[Reality Not Tin Foil]

101. Fuck assholes on message boards.

Fucking savages.

But at least their "Savages" are winning elections for them. Ours are losing them for us.

[Selwynn]

184. Ow.

:P

[wryter2000]

2. I don't know why this keeps happening

This is no more an athiest country per our Constitution than it's a Christian country. All I can say is that this agnostic is on your side.

[funky_bug]

10. Thanks - I'm on your side too

Pursuit of happiness and all that. None of US is the "greatest of these." Love is.

[freetobegay]

3. I agree!

I damn sick & tied of it allthese Jesus bashing threads are doing nothing but pissing me off!

Well two can play that game.

[eataTREE]

4. Dear lady, I would not presume to speak for others...

...but I believe they said, fuck the religious RIGHT. And you seem from your post here to be about as far from right-wing as it is possible to be.

I have heard no one say, fuck religion. Just the "religious right", which is a particular group with a particular agenda to which you most clearly do not belong.

[freetobegay]

8. Jesus is not part of the religious right

What about those threads?

[wryter2000]

9. You're right, eatatree

But I've seen lots of posts on DU that insult all Christians. Not just the religious right.

I'll admit to quite a bit of frustration in the past with Christians in that they seemed much more willing to cry "Jesus bashing" than to go after the people who've perverted their faith to begin with. I see that changing, though. And it's time for all of us to stand against those false "Christians." Insulting all people of faith gets us nowhere.

[justa]

168. The far right radicals are the problem.

The main stream Christians sheep are following them to the right because they are told that is what Christians do. We need to show them that true Christians who follow the actual teachings of Christ would not follow such intolerant, hateful, murdering, lying, evil, unchristian, going-to-burn-in-hell-for-all-eternity, repugnant, vile, creatures.

[ClassWarrior]

19. With all due respect, Tree...

...many people here bash Christians, period. I know that they mean the religious right or the fundamentalist conservatives or whatever you want to call them. But they don't take the courtesy to say it, and it hurts. Not just me and others personally, because we're Christians, but it hurts our cause. We need to build bridges with our fellow Americans, not burn them! I think it's incumbent upon all of us to be clear in using our language so that we're constantly relating to others and not pushing them away.

For what it's worth.

NGU.

[faithfulcitizen]

36. true, I don't see the distinctions in their posts. We need a separate

forum, sadly it seems. One where Christians are welcomed. Furthermore, it seems we need separate forums for those who support/don't support our troops. This has been a very sad past few days for DU...

[AndyTiedye]

150. A Separate Forum for Theological Refutations of the Wingers

would be a useful resource for all of us.

But you should feel welcome in the rest of the board too.
The people we refer to as the "religious right" are not you.
They aren't even properly Christian. Perhaps we should just
start calling them "the Dominion", like the alien invaders
in Deep Space 9.

[RaleighNCDUer]

183. Never considered that --

was the Dominion an allegory to the Dominionist movement? Hard to define, could be anyone, group-think, all that? I know, this is a lounge tangent, drifting into SF.

Sorry bout that.

[eataTREE]

56. On Christian-bashing

I think many people here (and elsewhere) have no real ill-feeling towards Christians or religion in general. What they do feel is that the civil government ought to be secular and that Church and state ought to be separate. This idea is now in broad retreat in America, which frightens thoughtful people, believers and non-believers alike.

Unfortunately, the group in America that is currently shouting Christ's name the loudest is the Christian Right, who are avowed opponents of secularism and separation of church and state. Unfortunately, the Christian Right has kind of appropriated most of the symbols of Christianity, much like the (more-or-less) secular wing of the Right has appropriated the flag. It is unfortunate but true that the person with an icthye decal on their car and a bumper sticker that declares, "Jesus Saves" is much more likely to be sympathetic to the Christian right than they are to be a thoughtful Christian who follows Christ's mission of love and mercy. And thus the non-religious have begun to associate the trappings of Christianity, not with the love of Christ, but with odious right-wing politics.

I think the left and moderates in this country have begun to do a good job of taking back the flag as a symbol, not of support for the right-wing, but of true love of country. Liberal and moderate Christians would do well to do the same with the symbols of Christianity. Jesus, after all, was history's most celebrated liberal, and was put to death for his beliefs by a group that very much resembles the modern Christian right.

Note: I'm not trying to excuse Christian-bashing, which is ignorant and bigoted as you rightly point out.

Note 2: Just for the record, I personally am a Unitarian.

[Reality Not Tin Foil]

110. How about "Holy Joe"?

I guess they're just bashing him because he's a member of the "Religious Right"??

Oh wait...

[WI_DEM]

6. I'm a Christian too but not a member of the religious right

which is in many cases a bunch of intolerant bigots. To me a Christian is someone who believes in tolerance and looking out for the poor and sick. Many on the religious right don't even care about that.

[BurtWorm]

7. I wish the religious left could get control over your winger brethren

and sistren. They seem to own your religion now.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

18. The problem is

we aren't ABOUT controlling other people.

Why should we have to take control of them? I can hardly stand to be around them.

[BurtWorm]

29. Good point. Poor word choice on my part.

When I was a kid in the 1960s, there was such a thing as mainstream Christian churches. These tended to be supportive of Civil Rights, anti-poverty programs, a strict separation between church and state. In the late 1970s, the right wing loons ascended to "become" what I think of as "Christian." What was the mainstream seems to have become marginalized.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

43. You're right

when you were a kid, that IS how mainstream Christian churches were.

It's too bad they've been hijacked by Pharisees.

I've started going to a UU church. I'm in TX so I'm a minority as it is, I need to be around like-minded people for once.

We'll do it. It's just going to take some time.

[blondeatlast]

188. Amen, my sister.

My faith is my own, my politics is a way of putting it into practice to help other people.

I refuse to soil my beliefs for politics.

[Maat]

27. Nope, BurtWorm, that's not possible.

And I'm not a Christian, I'm a Unitarian/Religious Scientist.

The thing is Americans United for Separation of Church and State coined the term 'religious right' to refer to right-wing extremists from any faith. They wanted to differentiate these dangerous people from mainstream congregants (more progressive congregants).

Please do not confuse bashing of the Religious Right with bashing of any Christian.

The leaders of the Religious Right are not really theologians or pastors. They are hard-line right-wing politicians of the vilest sort. They often are members of the Council for National Policy, a vile organization that seems to be able to spend more time with the pResident than key members of the Senate.

When I was initially blessed with my beloved daughter, I was so proud of this Country. Now I wonder exactly what kind of a mess or banana republic I will be turning over to her. Sad.

[Lerkfish]

72. here's an IDEA: why dont YOU control them?

oh, that's right...because you CAN"T, and realistically neither can we.

Here's the deal: The tenacity of their delusion is too strong. You can't attack their point of view, because they thrive on persecution, thinking it PROVES they're on the right track...further, it puts you in the heathen camp in their minds, which even more pushes your relevance to them into a black hole. How you gonna reach them then?

This is how all cults thrive: restrict access to contrary information, make them distrust sources of contrary information, and paint people who disagree with you as evil and their arguments evil seductions. Once you have established that, the ONLY way you can reach the cultist is after they come to their OWN senses, because their leaders have coated them with layers and layers of interlocking lies so that they wouldn't know the truth if it bit them in the butt.

You can't even kidnap and deprogram them, because there are too many, so the effort would be like tossing bricks into the grand canyon...you accomplish nothing and you soon run out of bricks, and it would take too long.

I'm open to suggestions, but honestly, I've tried to talk to religious right relatives, and they treat ME like a spawn of satan for suggesting Christ is liberal and preaches compassion.

when you convince christians to IGNORE the teachings of Christ, you've already got their BS meter disabled to such a degree I don't see how you ever reach them.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

92. We CAN'T control them because we're mostly in different denominations

The rightwingers are mostly Southern Baptist, Assembly of God, and other fundamentalist denominations.

The leftwingers are mostly Unitarians, Quakers, Episcopalians, ELCA Lutherans, American Baptists, and other mainstream denominations.

Catholics, Methodists, and Presbyterians can fall on either side of the line.

The fundies believe that we leftwingers have corrupted the true faith, so they will never listen to us. In fact, they hate us almost worse than they hate atheists.

[Selwynn]

186. They DO hate us worse. :)

I would add the ECNA (Evangelical Conference of North America) to the list of fundamentalist demoninations.

I'd add United Methodists to the list of mainstream demoninations

I'd add the Church of the Nazarene to the list of ones that can go either/or.

[Selwynn]

185. They're not my bretheren

They take the name of God in vain. I wish we could stamp it out too. If I knew one thing more I could do to fight it I would... :(

[alittlelark]

11. I know of quite a few liberal christians

They follow the teachings of Christ, and are therefore dem's.

When someone says "Fuck the religious right" they are speaking of those that follow the anti-christ.

Not you.

Some people are VERY ANGRY, and are not making differentiations.

I'll admit, I am VERY ANGRY as well.

[omnithrope]

13. Are you the "religious right"? Religious right != christian...

nt

[liberal N proud]

15. I too am a christian, but I am fed up with the Right Wing

crap that is shove down my throat everytime I go into a church.
My stand is that the Right Wing has hijacked the Christians and is using them beyond belief and it is because of the christianity they have become gulible.
I can not continue to attend church when the preacher gives a sermon against the very thing the he is about to endorse.

I believe whole hartedly in the separation of church and state. So much so that I did not wear anything political to church in spite of the fact I had to look at bush button every Sunday during the campaign. I will not speak about politics while in a church.
I think the churchs should show some restraint here as well.
It is not christianity that needs to be put down, but the christians who have been sublimaly coerced into the Right Wing agenda.

[ShaneGR]

16. Unfortunately, too many of the left tend to sneer at religious people

It's the reason we lost this election, unfortunately.

[papau]

30. true

:-(

[Tomee450]

139. I strongly disagree. That is

what the right wingers want people to believe. It's the judgemental, intolerant Christians that causes such anger. They want to force their beliefs onto others. I am a Christian and I do not support the actions of the right wing Christian fundamentalists.

[papau]

145. I do not support the actions of the right wing Christian fundamentalists-

also

but the lanuage used on DU rarely says this comment only applies to the actions of the right wing Christian fundamentalists.

[DemCam]

230. Ditto...no agreement here.

The issue is religious tolerance....that's what our country was founded on...though you certainly didn't really have much hope of tolerance coming your way if you did'nt profess to be religious.

I don't know how Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin got away with it. Maybe it was the lack of TV.

[omnithrope]

31. The reason we lost the election?

Uh... then I hope we lose again.
Christianity has no place in politics. Sorry.

[papau]

146. Agree - and Politics is not a place to dump on the faith of others.

:-)

[sister moon]

38. The reason we lost this election

is because the bushies rigged the voting machines, threw away Dem registrations, disenfranchised blacks, intimidated voters, and STOLE the fucking election. AGAIN.
Where is the :sneer: emoticon? Admins, can we get a sneer here please? I sure would wear the hell out of it.

[Rose Siding]

48. What makes you think that's the reason?

-asking sincerely, not confrontatively.

I see the GOP and the pundits pressing it but that 22% in the exit poll that named "values" as their most important issue, is dwarfed by the 78% that named something different.

It makes sense for them to press it because it's very a damaging charge and it puts the left on the defense.

Isn't it even a safe guess that those 22% define "values" very narrowly, to include only a few political objectives? I think they are the fringe and overreaction to *that* element of the electorate would be a mistake.

[Kathryn7]

67. I agree.

[CornField]

86. You've got to be kidding, right?

Please take about 30 minutes to meditate really deep and really hard -- just sit somewhere and clear your mind of as much as possible. Then, when you're done, consider this:

Not once have I ever been personally attacked for who I am and what I believe -- except by a self-professed Christian

Not once have my children ever been personally attacked for what their parents believe and what their parent's are teaching them -- except by a self-professed Christian

There have been times in my life when I had to reach for a helping hand, not once did that helping hand hold food in one hand and a holy book/sermon in the other -- except by a self-professed Christian

Really consider this... really, really do it.

When the rest of the world says "religious tolerance" they really mean it. The exception is self-professed Christians.

When the rest of the populace discusses separation of church and state, they really mean a complete separation of church and state. The exception is self-professed Christians.

When religions stand up and declare that they worship a loving god, they really mean it. The exception is self-professed Christians.

Want to know why "we" lost this election? It's because "we" tend to believe in the goodness and greatness of man.

We watched self-professed Christians bomb abortion clinics; we watched self-professed Christians degrade an already brutally murdered gay man (at the hands of self-professed Christians); we watched self-professed Christians commit untold millions of terrorist acts against this nation... we watched and we listened to other supposed Christian moderates tell us that it wasn't them -- that those weren't their values -- that it was some extreme faction within their religion and that they would deal with it. "We" -- the people who believe in the goodness and greatness of men -- took you at your word.

Guess what? WORDS ARE NO LONGER ENOUGH! We no longer trust you. Matter of fact, we have come to question to the goodness and greatest of you because you have not made strides to remove the virus within you and your own religion.

You want our respect? You want our tolerance? SHOW US SOME ACTION. Demounce these bigots that have taken over your religion and take back Christianity!

[arwalden]

122. Heh-heh-heh. Snort. Chortle.

Bwaa-ha-haa-haa-ha! That's definitely one of the most idiotic statements I've read in a long time.

-- Allen

[AndyTiedye]

126. We Did No Such Thing

Kerry was bending over backwards to get that vote.

What more would you have had us do?

We are being criticized in here for daring to criticize the religious right.
Why?

[arwalden]

129. Because Some Here See An Attack On One As An Attack On All

Perhaps those folks identify with the plight of the bigots... who the hell knows? It's doubtful, but maybe some of them are bigots themselves. I'm grasping at straws here... it's truly a mystery.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

17. Don't take it personally

they aren't talking about us. They are talking about the Pharisees, the false christians.

Not us.

[flobee1kenobi]

34. I, too, dont believe

they are talking about all Christians. Just the idiots that believe the Constitution should be replaced by the Bible. Anyone who is a true Christian is a Dem.

[sangh0]

148. " belief in a deity is a mental illness"

doesn't distinguish between Hindus and Christians, never mind one group of Christians from another

[henslee]

20. WoWF, its identity theft. Just as Muslims are tainted by their fundies,

Christians have been identity thefted by Christian fundies who push an agenda of hate and intolerance. You know it's not targeted at christian mods. Sure wish real Christians would step the hell up and separate themselves from this agenda.

[otohara]

21. Another Sick to Death of "You People" Post

If you do believe in all religions and freedom of religion, does that include "non-religious" types?

The religious right just elected the most corrupt immoral administration in our history. I think that's a valid reason to bitch a bit. Talk about hypocrisy!

[funky_bug]

53. I think I made that perfectly clear

But if I didn't, I'll say it simply:

All faiths (or the choice of no faith) is freedom for all... pursuit of happiness for all...

There's no hypocrasy in saying that I'm sick of being attacked because someone doesn't think my faith has a place in this party.

[otohara]

105. We Just Got Attacked In A Big Way For Not Being Religious

Not by reasonable Christian's like yourself, but those extreme, black/white types.

So sorry if a few people on DU have offended you, but I'm completely offended by what took place last Tuesday when our government got hijacked by the religious right.

I suggest you not take our venting of the religious right so personally since you don't fit that mold. Just as I don't give a rats ass what they say about us immoral types over on FreeRepublic.com.

[GreenPartyVoter]

22. No bashing from me *hugs*

-------------------------------------------
Would Jesus love a liberal? You bet!
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/

[Union Thug]

23. I'm one of those bashers...

...and I know that there are christians in this world that aren't as unbelievably stupid as those righties in the US.

My wife comes from a Russian Orthodox background and I must say that her depth of understanding transcends anything the moronic evangelical droolers in the United States could muster. Funny, she was attacked by the American Xtian knuckledraggers last year because she believed that femininity has a place in Xtianity by virtue of the the role of Mary in the church. The boneheads in America, the american taliban, come unglued over such heresy.

I am an atheist, but i appreciate the depth of philosophical discourse that serious minded xtians are capable of. But here in the United States, christianity is the religion of idiots, bigots and dark-agers (for example, even now, the idiots are pushing their creationist bullshit on our public schools).

[coloradodem2005]

24. Well, when I complain. I complain about the Religious Right.

Because they are the outspoken "Christians". I should be more specific. I wish I was around more liberal Christians and not just the evangelicals that I have been around. I want to find my way back to God, but I don't know how.

[Socialist Dem]

25. First of all

You know that you aren't part of the group that gets bashed around here. The "religious right" has nothing in common with most Christians I bet.

We non-believers see the "religious right" as nothing more that a facist group trying to force it's agenda on all of us. This group doesn't follow the teachings of Jesus, so in my opinion they aren't really Christians.

To me, "neocons", "religious right", "right wing fundimentalist", is describing the same thing.

Finally, Anyone who thinks they have all the answers, and has the right to "look down" on the rest of us is a fool, so treat them like one.

[arwalden]

26. Too Bad... "FUCK THE RELIGIOUS RIGHT!!!"

They are my mortal enemy. You may choose to love them or defend them or apologize for them or make excuses for them... if that's your thing.

Okay... so they are "Christian"... should they get a free pass because of their religion? Should they get a free pass because you share their religion?

Okay, so you are a Christian... and? So? What does this have to do with them? How does my telling THEM to fuck off equate to telling you to fuck off?

Try not to 'own' the insults that are clearly not intended for you and which are not aimed at you. You and others are smart enough to know exactly who is being targeted with ridicule and insults and harsh criticism (and you also know why this is happening.)

Do you consider yourself to part of the religious right? Are you a rightwing religious nut? -- No? So why all the confusion?

I'm sick of so many people trying to paint the zealot fundie bigots as the "victims" of unfair treatment. Fuck that bullshit! And fuck them!

-- Allen

PS: Fuck the religious right!

[Maat]

39. And while this Unitarian/Religious Scientist. never condones..

attacking a person because of his or her faith, I do realize that we are in this weird situation in which there are a bunch of people running around right now with big smiles on their faces bragging about having voted for a fascist (corporatist). They label themselves 'Christian.'

I resist calling them that with all my being. I call them the Religious Right (the Extremists). I have to have some label to refute the contentions that our media whores keeping giving publicity to.

Perhaps those of us on DU could come up with a label - Religious Right Extremists - or something. That way, no specific congregation or belief is mentioned - just the political aspect of this debauchery.

And, again, I always make a distinction between Christians and the Religious Right Extremists.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

98. AMEN ALLEN!

I was raised Catholic and I will say without apologies "fuck the religious right".

It needs to be said, and said often, by those of any faith or no faith who would keep our country from being a theocracy. And I applaud wholeheartedly everyone who does so.

I abhor the Phelps and the Roberts and the Falwells of this world and spit on what they want to do to our country, and what they have done to and in the name of "Christianity".

IT CANNOT STAND.

And if you interpret what I've said as "Christian bashing", so be it.

[Zomby Woof]

233. too bad I can't nominate a post for front page

That was beautiful!

Fuck 'em all. Fuck monotheism and its authoritarian ways.

[revree]

28. NOBODY IS BASHING YOU, YOU ARE THE REAL CHRISTIAN...

We are not angry with you, but with the extremists that have hijacked Jesus. People like you need to really speak up now because you stand for true Christianity, which is being totally ignored by media in favor of right wing fanaticism.

YOU ARE WELCOME AND APPRECIATED HERE!!!

REV. MARIE JONES

[CornField]

32. I'll bash you -- happily

(Please keep in mind that I'm on day 2 without a cigarette)

*YOUR* faith has been hijacked. *YOUR* beliefs are being warped.

Before you come in here attacking everyone who is upset at "Christians" please take a moment and really have a hard look at the people who are leading the "Christian" movement.

You want my applause for your beliefs? You want my 'tolerance' of your religion? Then go clean it up -- take back Christianity.

[omnithrope]

37. Organized religion does not tolerate me, why should I tolerate it?

Good point, Cornfield.

[blondeatlast]

214. I fyou mean what I think you mean, you are wrong.

I'm a Unitarian, and so are many Christians.

And Jews, and Muslims, and whites, and women, and gays, and Wiccans, and...

[freetobegay]

40. We lost the election due to athiests

We are losing morals due to athiests, we are losing America due to athiests.

You you don't understand my post. You never will.

[Union Thug]

44. Oh yeah, the huge number of activist atheists destroyed the election...

Right.

So start a campaign to purge the infidels and heretics out of the Democratic party then.

[omnithrope]

45. I am an athiest. Sorry, you're just wrong.

Keep your religion in your own home, not mine.

[freetobegay]

55. You think your right, I think I'm right.

Those two facts will never change.

[omnithrope]

60. At least mine is based in logic, not faith.

n/t

[freetobegay]

64. Thats your opinion.

Not mine. Thas why my statement still stands true.

[Union Thug]

79. It goes beyond logic..

Atheists understand that we are here on a one way, one time trip. We don't have these stupid pie in the sky dreams that takes our focus off of the earthly prize. Instead of saying, we'll be rewarded in heaven for our suffering, we, as atheists, confront the suffering head on. I have no tolerance for the RW or their ideas. I have no tolerance for those that are anti-labor (my pet issue).

There will be no reward in the afterlife, so we'd better take these bastards to task right now and without hesitation.

Once upon a time, many years ago, I was spiritual. Now I hate the concept of religion. Marx was right. OPIATE.

[arwalden]

102. Opiate Indeed!

[arwalden]

47. Three Words: God Hates Fags

Look how YOUNG these kids are. I guess their parents teach them well, eh?

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[arwalden]

70. Yes... And They Demand Tolerance Too!

And apologists and whiners who perceive every harsh word against the bigots as a personal attack on someone who's NOT a bigot just MAKE THINGS WORSE FOR US... and EASIER FOR THEM!!!

Ought not they be outraged at the folks like that? No... they are too busy being personally insulted at criticism and ridicule that's CLEARLY not intended for them in the first place.

THEY ARE FIGHTING THE WARS OF THE ENEMY, FOR THE ENEMY... leaving the enemy to attack on other fronts.

People like that are TRAITORS themselves and are equally worthy of my contempt!

-- Allen

[Union Thug]

58. Ah, look at the future cannon fodder. Aren't they cute?

I can't even believe what I'm seeing here. Their parents should be locked up for abuse.

Pricks.

[arwalden]

78. Bigotry Disguised As Christianity... Contemptible!

Hey... "Fags Are Worthy Of Death". How nice! And what a cute baby!

[Rich Hunt]

175. hey look!

That baby has a rainbow hat on.

[funky_bug]

116. I'm sorry you feel it necessary to use hatred to support hatred.

It's quite obvious these are the very lunatic fringe. Every society, every town, has their "crazy Joe." This is sensationalism at its best, and I'm quite disappointed you chose lunacy to support your argument.

My professor always says, "Weasles breed weasles, and kind always finds kind." It never ceases to amaze me when that statement falls true over and over again.

[arwalden]

181. Oh Good Grief, Wife_of_a_Wes_Freak.

These folks ARE representative of the crazy wild-eyed hateful fundy Christian RW bigots who have taken over the Republican party.

Please stop denying the obvious. Please don't attack me for pointing out the truth. This isn't about me.

-- Allen

[CornField]

57. Pardon me, but you've made a huge assumption

I'm not an atheist.

Just FYI here... I was raised as a Protestant Christian. It took me getting steamrolled by my own congregation before I left.

Have any more stones to throw from the top of that glass house?

[DrWeird]

75. Really? I thought it was homosexuals.

Because gay pride = christian-bashing.

At least to some people.

[arwalden]

90. Ding-ding-ding! We Have A Winner!! Give That Man A Cupie-Doll!!!

[funky_bug]

117. Again, you misunderstand me

I'm do not think gay pride = christian bashing... if you are insinuating that I'm speaking out against gays by citing my concerns about christian bashing, then you quite obviously have never read one of my posts. I'm on the gay-pride side, as anyone will tell you.

[arwalden]

187. It Appears That The Side You're Taking Is Against ANYONE Who

speaks harshly against ANY Christian faction... no matter how accurate the criticism is, and no matter how deserved the harsh words are... it appears that your position is "an attack against one is an attack against all", right?

No, I don't think you're opposed to equal rights for Queer Americans. That's absurd! Most folks around here know better. You're not like that at all!

It just seems to me that in our quest for equal rights, you'd prefer it if we just sat down and shut up about the bigotry from that particular faction of Christianity. It seems to me that you feel the scorn I/we heap upon the RW zealots is somehow 'undeserved' and 'unfair' and 'divisive' since their particular style of bigotry springs forth from righteousness. Your argument seems to suggest that bigotry in the name of a deity is A-OK.

One would think that most reasonable people would be even MORE offended that they are hiding behind their religion to promote their bigoted agenda. Instead, it seems that they are being given a free pass BECAUSE of they couch it as an expression of their religion.

How fucked up is that?? Good is bad and bad is good. I feel like I've fallen through the rabbit hole.

-- Allen in Wonderland

[TheKingfish]

203. So i take it you are a homosexual? n/t

[really annoyed]

220. Oh Sure...

All 0.5% of them!

Yes, that is the percentage of atheists that exist in the U.S.

By the way, not to be snooty, but it's spelled "atheist."

[sadiesworld]

59. I guess the same thing could be said about those red state dems...

"you want tolerance of southerners, then go clean up the south". Oh yeah, it is being said. :smoke:

[CornField]

96. It's not only being said -- it's true.

If democrats in the red states want to make a change, they've got to start today. No more sitting back on our laurels and voting every four years. It's time for dems to take over the school boards, the city councils, the county boards -- it's time for us to make our presence known.

[quaker bill]

142. You secularist newcomers!

Such a sad lot. You haven't gotten a clue about the tolerance for different viewpoints you preach.

I do not seek your tolerance nor do I require it. My faith obligates me to be tolerant, I does not lead me to expect it from others.

When you have been advancing the liberal agenda for 350 years then perhaps we will be able to talk.

[TeddyKGB]

33. Religious moderates betray both their religion and reason...

...by not completely committing to either.

Granted, they're not as bad as fundamentalists -- but then, what is? Plenty of "moderates" voted for Bush on issues of abortion and gay marriage.

It's not "bashing" of Christianity, Islam, or the Jews. It's recognizing religion's culpability in death and oppression for centuries.

It's also the reason we are under the threat of "mass destruction" today. By definition, those geniuses who slammed those planes into the Towers on 9/11 had perfect faith - that is, they committed totally to the idea. Scary.

[mzmolly]

52. Religion is not culpable, the "twisting" of it is.

"It's recognizing religion's culpability in death and oppression for centuries."

Ted Bundy blamed pornography for killing women, where's the outrage.

Religion is only dangerous in the hands of dangerous minds.

[TeddyKGB]

66. That's assuming religion is "perfect" to begin with.

It isn't. Anyone who's perused the Bible or Koran knows there's some pretty f'd up stuff inside its pages.

Did God create man in His image, or did man create God in his image? The Bible & Koran represent the time in which they were written -- it's time for man to reevaluate the image in which they created God...or we're all going to pay dearly.

[mzmolly]

71. The interpretation of the books you mention varies greatly.

I won't defend either book based on "fundi" interpretations, and the truth of the matter is many on the left define said books in the same manner as those on the far right.

[TeddyKGB]

77. Fundamentalists don't "interpret" the Bible, molly

They take it literally. It's the moderates who, thankfully, have done some interpreting.

But not enough interpreting, obviously. As I said in my original post, how many seemingly reasonable Christian moderates voted for Bush?

[Union Thug]

81. Not necessarily true. They pick and choose which version to take literally

They routinely discount that which does not support that version of reality they choose to accept. I think you give them too much credit. When each of them can read greek and latin andhave reviewed the original texts, then they can make a claim as to their literal belief in the bible.

[TeddyKGB]

88. Whatever the "original texts" say is moot.

It's the Americanized version of Christian beliefs that are at the heart of the discussion.

Americans can't program their VCRs, much less consult "the original texts" of the Bible.

[Union Thug]

103. Hence their pure crap about taking the bible literally.

None of them take the bible literally because they don't have a clue what a literal reading of the bible means.

[mzmolly]

85. I guess it depends on what you define a reasonable Christian Moderate? I

don't think any reasonable people voted for *.

I think bigots of all stripes did.

:hi:

[TeddyKGB]

91. Now you're starting to get somewhere.

You aren't born with bigotry -- you learn it.

Bigotry has been taught to Americans, whether read directly from the Bible or from just living in a Bible-thumping culture.

[mzmolly]

108. Most bigots I know don't attend Church.

I grew up in the twin cities, one area I lived in was "poor white folk" and they were the most racist/homophobes (generally speaking) that I've ever seen. Nazi Skinheads/and bikers abound. They weren't Christian, and they didn't attend Church by and large.

Some of these people were Democrats before Nafta because they were union people. Dems used to represent the working class, they've abandon them.

I think were missing the boat by blaming so called "Christians" and were gonna lose more elections if we don't get a clue.

Racists who want to keep their faux tax cut lost this election for us (if it wasn't stolen) in the first place.

The Rupert Murdoch media will tell us it was "morality" when in fact it was "bigotry" and greed.

Further Americans love war, it's like football to them. And, they didn't want to change coaches in the middle of the big game.

[Selwynn]

178. This is also absurd.

Fundamentalists do not take "the bible" literally, whether they say they do or not.

The selectively pick a handful of passages that they like and apply those at face value, while interpreting and rationalizing away (or just ignoring) the passages they don't like. Everyone interprets whatever they read. Fundamentalists choose to read the bible through a lens of power and control. To do that, they must ignore the wealth of scripture that stands in start contrast to that perspective.

Ironically, because fundamentalists choose to interpret the bible through that lens, ignoring the things that don't fit into their power perspective, they usually ignore most of the narratives of Jesus completely.

Everyone interprets. I reject certain interpretations of certain scriptures because I accept as a foundational premise that Jesus is central to the Bible, and that the themes of his life and ministry are the lens through which the entire bible should be interpreted. The main theme of his life and ministry was revealing a God of love, and practicing a life of compassionate ministry. I take that lens to the rest of scripture, and I find four kinds of texts.

1. Texts which are historically accurate and theologically consistent with this lens of love
2. Texts which are historically inaccurate but theologically consisten with this lens of love
3. Texts which are historically accurate but theologically inconsistent with this lens of love
4. Texts which are both historically inaccurate and theologically inconsistent with this lens of love

Just because there are certain things in this tome of ancient texts that I disagree with doesn't mean I need to burn the book, nor doesn't mean there isn't great insight to be found therein. The fact that the book was written by human beings, who made mistakes and were struggling themselves with their own feeble, stuttering, stumbling attempts to work out their own faith is something that is very comforting to me - and actually makes the book more sacred to me. It is the books flaws, not the claim of some to its absolute inerrence - that makes the book beautiful to me.

Many times I enjoy seeing the evolution of the authors right on the page. For example, many people - including myself - have often criticized certain texts in the psalms where the author prays for torture, violence and genocide against his enemies. The think I found interesting was one psalm where the author prays exactly that. Then without segway, immediately follows it by saying "search me O God and know my heart. Try me, and know my thoughts and see if their be any wicked way in me." He then goes on to return to praising God for his gifts and mercy.

Now, I don't know what was really going on, and I don't know the historical context of that writing, and I don't know a lot of details about its authorship - but when I read that I always got the impression that this author wrote some words in anger - not unlike words I've written myself in frustration -- and then something in his heart told him that this wasn't the right way to feel and act. So he prays that God might search out his own soul and help him have the right perspective.

You may not agree with my interpretation. That's fine. But everyone interprets. Its just a question of what lens you use and what you believe is the appropriate touchstone for interpretation.

Sel

[quaker bill]

143. But the Christian message is fundamentally liberal

It is not about moderation at all. Conservative fundamentalism is a perversion of the Christian message.

We have gone to jail for the anti-war message. We have risked life and limb to protect the rights of Palestinians. We are at work making peace in Rwanda and Burundi. Our feeding centers, health clinics, and schools were blown up by the Contra's.

You secularist newcomers are so full of yourselves. When you can sit down to lunch with members of your community that were Conscientious Objectors to all the US wars over the last 70 years, then perhaps we will have something to discuss. When you have a history of supporting liberal causes for 350 years, perhaps then.

[Selwynn]

177. That is the most absurd thing I've ever heard.

You have the strangest definition of "faith" I've ever heard. But then again, I frequently discover that the anti-religious like to make up their own definitions of what religion can't and can't be and define it in exclusive ways in order to attack it.

Blind faith in direct contradiction to all reason isn't faith - its fideism. Real faith is best defined as St. Anselm defined it centuries ago, as faith seeking understanding, or faith joined with reason.

You need to make room for religious progressives in your thinking, and stop being obsessed with their personal decisions about belief. You need us as much as we need you to take back the nation.

[arwalden]

41. So Sorry For Bashing These Folks. My Sincere Apologies.

We should be more tolerant of them. Accept their hatred... because bashing them bashes YOU. What a selfish and thoughtless thing for me to do.

[freetobegay]

42. I'm a christian so I guess it's ok to bash me?

[omnithrope]

63. If you're in front of your house with a "god hates fags" sign, yes.

duh.

[H2O Man]

69. Is your goal to have

a conversation, or simply to disrupt? This thread was a conversation between people who are of faith, and who have respect for those who do not. You seem intent only upon insulting and trying to create a division here. Are you sure you are in the right place?

[omnithrope]

73. Who are you to question what I post?

The original poster is wrong and offensive.
When, as a DU paying member, did I become not allowed to post my opinion?

Sheesh.

[H2O Man]

80. I'm the Water Man.

Why does a certain segment of the people who post offensive and aggressively insulting things tend to use the word "Sheesh"? It's a pattern.

The poster was making a point about intolerant people. You have proved the point in each of your posts on this thread. You do not allow that some people who are religious are also good democrats. You select the position that one would suppose would create friction among DUers.

You do not have the right to "post your opinion" when it is in direct violation of the DU rules, which includes being anti-religious. But you know that.

[omnithrope]

82. Show me one thing I've said that's "anti-religious".

One. Just one.

[H2O Man]

100. One. Just one.

37. Organized religion does not tolerate me, why should I tolerate it?


With that one statement, you sow the seeds of intolerance. I would note that there has not been any threads by religious folkson DU that has shown intolerance of any group excluding the republicans. The religious people on DU, who are indeed organized, do not show intolerance towards gays or lesbians; atheists or agnostics; black, brown, red, yellow, or white folk; men or women; young or old; rich or poor; highly educated or self educated; or any other group of people.

Just republicans.

You identify yourself with a group that the organized religious folks on DU do "not tolerate." You haven't said what group that is. You also tell them to "keep your religion in your home" (45). You write that "Christianity has no place in politics," (31) which is a surprise to all who admire people like Dr. King and Rev. Jackson and the Berrigan Brothers. And you accuse the posters of being the "religious right" (13).

Again, this would not appear to be the tactic of a DUer who for whatever reason has a problem with the actual religious right. Clearly the DUers who are Christian are not siding with the right-wing zealots.

[omnithrope]

104. So, If i'd said:

"The Republican party does not tolerate me, why should I tolerate them?"

Would that be wrong? Isn't that pretty much what DU is about?

If so, why is saying the same thing about a religious body wrong? It's just a group of people with a belief.

I object that saying "Organized religion does not tolerate me, why should I tolerate it?" is "anti-religious". It's a statement of fact. Organized religion does NOT tolerate my lifestyle. Sorry. And, no, I do not tolerate organized religion.

[H2O Man]

112. organized religion does not equal the republican party

But you know that. The only people that aren't tolerated on DU are republicans. There are many DUers who are "organized religion" personified. What don't they tolerate about you?

[arwalden]

65. Only If You Choose To Own The Criticism That's Not Intended For You.

Most rational people can discern the difference between the wholesale bashing of Christians and the ridicule, scorn, and harsh criticism that's aimed at the righwing Christians.

[Name removed]

180. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[arwalden]

192. Selwynn

Whenever you see someone making wholesale attacks against Christians, you really ought to click "alert" and the mods will take care of it. In those instances where a few folks are breaking the rules, the best thing to do is to handle THOSE rule-breakers... and NOT to declare that any scorn for any faction of Christendom is verboten.

I simply haven't seen widespread examples of the type of behavior that's being described. It doesn't appear to be as prevalent as many here are suggesting. Even if it *is* widespread, then there are rules in place to handle it. No need to squelch the criticism of those bigots who deserve it. Just enforce the existing rules.

It appears that in an effort to put a lid on the small percentage of folks who actually do say things like that, there are many hypersensitive folks who choose take offense at ALL criticism of zealot Christians.

People are doing themselves NO favors by pretending that the scorn that's being heaped upon zealot Christians is an attack on all Christians. It just looks silly! It appears that some of these hypersensitive 'language-marms' will be satisfied with nothing less than an asterisk followed by a fifty-word essay that explicitly disclaims the factions of Christianity that are NOT intentionally targeted; and which apologizes profusely for any confusion or misunderstanding or hurt feelings that may result in the justified scorn of that particular faction.

However, if that person would just use their common sense, and read the criticism IN CONTEXT they would know who the criticism is intended for. They need to stop looking for insults that aren't intended. It just goes to show that some people are NEVER satisfied.

By the way: I'd argue that "Fuck religion" is different than "fuck Christians". And, "I hate religion" is different than "I hate Christians". -- But as was the case before, folks can choose to own the harsh words that are CLEARLY not intended for them. Some people are never happy unless they are perpetual victims and the center of attention. From the looks of things, it's clear to me that some people around feel that they deserve special treatment simply because they are Christians. I suppose there's nothing I can do about that.

-- Allen

P.S. Don't forget about that "alert" button, Selwynn.

[Selwynn]

193. Wow - thanks

Thank you for the amazing display of restraint. That was a pretty thoughtful response. Thank you.

[arwalden]

195. You're Welcome.

[Maat]

62. As a retired social worker and children's advocate...

these pictures make me ill. My child's teachers know that none of the religious right beliefs are to be discussed with my child. Ever.

'Course, I really don't have to worry ... on the few occasions a neighbor has said something ... my outspoken little dink has come back loudly.

She can give an anti-war discourse that rivals Mommy's!

Thanks for the pix. They a good reminder of what we have to fight!

But DUers unite - atheists, agnostics, and the 'religious.'

None of us are a part of the Religious Right Extremists. And we have to make that clear every time, and unite!

[flobee1kenobi]

68. The people in those pictures

do not represent all Christians. Just like bush does not represent all americans. most true moderates (like me) feel that these people are making fools of themselves and fight hard to clear up any lies spread by these people.
1-God doesn't hate fags
2-aids is a disease, not a curse
3-If I see anyone holding the yellow sign in the bottom picture, I'm going to kock em out!

[juliagoolia]

76. This is them...and this is where they meet and when

Established in 1955 by Pastor Fred Phelps, the Westboro Baptist Church (WBC) of Topeka, Kansas still exists today as an Old School (or, Primitive) Baptist Church. See the WBC Monograph. In short, we adhere to the teachings of the Bible, preach against all form of sin (e.g., fornication, adultery, sodomy), and insist that the doctrines of grace be taught publicly to all men. These doctrines of grace were well summed up by John Calvin in his 5 points of Calvinism: Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, and Perseverance of the Saints. Although these doctrines are almost universally hated today, they were once loved and believed. For example, Augustine (one of the early Church fathers), Martin Luther (the founder of the Lutheran Church), John Knox (the founder of the Presbyterian Church), Augustus Toplady (hymnist and leader in the Episcopal Church), Charles Spurgeon (a well-known preacher), and John Leland (who was partially responsible for our First Amendment in the United States) are just a few examples of people who have advanced these ideas. Please see The Doctrine of Absolute Predestination by Jerom Zanchius and our MEMO ON THE CHURCH. Most of the major Confessions of Faith throughout the history of the New Testament Church have also advanced these ideas. So, even though the Arminian lies that "God loves everyone" and "Jesus died for everyone" are being taught from nearly every pulpit in this generation, this hasn't always been the case. In fact, if you are in a Church that supposedly believes the Bible, and you are hearing these lies, then your church has apostatized. If you are interested in this subject, we encourage you to do some independent research on the history of the Church from Adam to now and, more importantly, we encourage you to carefully read the entire Bible.

WBC engages in daily peaceful sidewalk demonstrations opposing the homosexual lifestyle of soul-damning, nation-destroying filth. We display large, colorful signs containing Bible words and sentiments, including: GOD HATES FAGS, FAGS HATE GOD, AIDS CURES FAGS, THANK GOD FOR AIDS, FAGS BURN IN HELL, GOD IS NOT MOCKED, FAGS ARE NATURE FREAKS, GOD GAVE FAGS UP, NO SPECIAL LAWS FOR FAGS, FAGS DOOM NATIONS, etc.

Perceiving the modern militant homosexual movement to pose a clear and present danger to the survival of America, exposing our nation to the wrath of God as in 1898 B.C. at Sodom and Gomorrah, WBC has conducted over 22,000 such demonstrations since June, 1991, at homosexual parades and other events (including funerals of impenitent sodomites, like Matthew Shepard). WBC teams have picketed all over the United States, and internationally (including Canada, Jordan and Iraq). The unique picketing ministry of Westboro Baptist Church has received international attention, and WBC believes this gospel message to be this world's last hope.

For more information about WBC, feel free to attend one of our weekly church meetings. We are located at 3701 W. 12th Street in Topeka, KS. Regular service time is 11:30 a.m. (Central time).

[pelagius]

113. The Westboro Baptist Church is essentially a family-based cult.

It has no church building per se, it meets in a house in a family compound. There are two or three dozen members, nearly all of whom are related to "Reverend" Fred Phelps by birth or marriage. They get far more publicity than they deserve.

[AntiCoup2K4]

138. Is that Stern in a picture with the Phelpsian hate cultists?

Geezus, I know Howie would do anything for ratings, but why in God's name would you want a picture of yourself with such amoral shitballs :puke:

[Selwynn]

179. You know what, I can post some pics of some pretty outrageous people too..

..doing some pretty outrageous things in the name of:

-- liberalism
-- Atheism
-- Gay/lesbian
-- and so on...

If every time someone posted a message about respect and equality and fair treatment for gays I posted an article about the man who just happened to be gay in my town who was convicted of 16 counts of child molestation and rape and then said "We should be more tolerant of them. Accept their actions... because bashing them bashes YOU. What a selfish and thoughtless thing for me to do" you would be outraged.

You would point out that the actions of a few does not translate into a justifiable condemnation against a majority. You would expect me not to say something like "gay people are child molesters" when I actually mean "this guy was a child molester."

But that's exactly what you are doing here. By implying that somehow it should be OK for you to make sweeping blanket bashing remarks against people of faith because of the actions of a fanatical cult with less than 20 members and acting like somehow, "welp that's christianity for ya." FUCK THAT. Knock off the fucking bullshit hypocrisy, get the fucking chip off your shoulder and start being intellectually honest with your condemnation.

Godhatesfags.com is run by Fred Phelps. Fred Phelps is a little po-dunk cult that Christian churches and denominations all over the mainstreamer completely denounce. His "church" consists of his family. That's about it. When Fred Phelps came to Boise Idaho to start trouble, it was CHRISTIANS and leaders of the Jewish community who came out to counter his protest, and turned up with literally 15 times the numbers they had.

By the way, you know what these guys were protesting when they came to my town? That's right - CHURCHES. They were protesting churches for their inclusive attitudes toward the gay and lesbian communities.

[Selwynn]

194. I can't edit any more - but if I could I would do this:

I would take out the swearing, so it didn't sound so personal, but leave the rest.

I'm sorry if I'm being too agressive in my response. This has been a really rough week on me as a person of faith - to watch as the faith that I hold dear is perverted, raped and distorted into something dispicable and taking over our american institutions. It just makes me want to cry and it is NOT indicative of all religion, all christians or all religious people. I'm not even sure it is the majority. It might be, or maybe - sadly - its heading that way. I don't know.

But its then here instead of feeling like this would be a place of solace and saftey for we "believers in exile" from organized religion, I often feel under assault. You seen to believe that it is because we are unfairly taking things personally and overly sensitive. I don't know. Maybe. But it doesn't change the fact that it feels frustrating and alientating right now.

[in_cog_ni_to]

46. When you see, "Fuck the religious right"

you need to think, Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson. Don't take it personally. Have you read the Yurica Report? If not, you should. THAT'S WHO'S BEING REFERRED TO. Not you.

The Despoiling of America


How George W. Bush became the head of the new American Dominionist Church/State




By Katherine Yurica



With Editorial and Research Assistant Laurie Hall



February 11, 2004

The First Prince of the Theocratic States of America




It happened quietly, with barely a mention in the media. Only the Washington Post dutifully reported it.<1> And only Kevin Phillips saw its significance in his new book, American Dynasty.<2> On December 24, 2001, Pat Robertson resigned his position as President of the Christian Coalition.



Behind the scenes religious conservatives were abuzz with excitement. They believed Robertson had stepped down to allow the ascendance of the President of the United States of America to take his rightful place as the head of the true American Holy Christian Church.



Robertson’s act was symbolic, but it carried a secret and solemn revelation to the faithful. It was the signal that the Bush administration was a government under God that was led by an anointed President who would be the first regent in a dynasty of regents awaiting the return of Jesus to earth. The President would now be the minister through whom God would execute His will in the nation. George W. Bush accepted his scepter and his sword with humility, grace and a sense of exultation.



As Antonin Scalia, Associate Justice of the Supreme Court explained a few months later, the Bible teaches and Christians believe “… that government …derives its moral authority from God. Government is the ‘minister of God’ with powers to ‘revenge,’ to ‘execute wrath,’ including even wrath by the sword…”<3><snip>

http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/TheDespoilingOfAmerica.htm

THIS is what we fear! Not people like you. :hug:

[RPM]

49. " I am a Christian, and that's why I'm a Dem... that's why I'm a liberal."

OK - fair enough and as such you should have no problem with the 'Fuck the Religious Right'... I can understand you being upset at 'fuck religion' threads - those attack your belief structure, however FTRR threads don't (at least on their face they dont).

Fine distinctions are to be made, understood and appreciated...

[idiosyncratic]

50. I am also a Christian and am sick of what has happened

to our Christian faith. It has been hijacked by the Religious Right and its tenets have been distorted.

I stopped going to church several months ago and probably won't go back. I cannot talk to those people because of their political leanings. :cry:

[RubyDuby in GA]

51. I understand

I am from the South and according to just about everyone here, it's all my fault that Kerry lost.

I am a southern democrat. And I'm not the only one. Stop bashing us.

[AndyTiedye]

128. According to Almost Everyone Here, The Election Was Rigged

Kerry would have won without all the fraud.

[ismnotwasm]

61. I don't bash Christians

Or Hindus or Wiccans for that matter. I'm sorry you feel your religion has been maligned. I annoy my Wiccan friends also, when I tell them that to me, It's just another religion. I like to read about religion the histories, the literature and the background. I've read the bible. Not studied it, mind you, but I've read it, mostly out of curiosity. I haven't read all of the Koran, or the Torah, just parts. So, they all tend to blur together for me, but certain themes do seem to reoccur. I like the love thy neighbor parts better than the kill your neighbor parts. I'm not an atheist, just so agnostic that it makes my brain hurt sometimes. I'm glad Christians like you are part of the Democrat party, because you give a nice balance, and are able to counter the-- would the word be "Pharisees"? of the right wing machine. Thank you for being here, and all the work you do.

[Batgirl]

109. I lost my ability to "tolerate" the religious right

when I heard my Christian fundie sister-in-law (married to my Christian whackjob brother, who, like the dry drunk chimp, found Jesus when he gave up strong drink) comment one day that she wished "the gays" would be "lined up and shot."

This is a woman who's always been kind and mild-mannered. Back before she and my brother joined their church, they seemed blissfully unaware of "the gays." Now they're convinced that homosexuality is an "abomination" and that if gay marriage is allowed, god will punish the US on a horrific scale. That's why these people voted for Bush no matter how bad he screwed up Iraq or the economy.

People like my brother have found it necessary to withdraw from mainstream US culture as much as possible. All social interaction, and a surprising amount of economic interaction, involves people from their church. Life experiences are carefully controlled and sanitized to prop up the belief system. The church also holds burnings of music cds that are deemed to be the work of the devil. TV, movies and books are carefully screened for unacceptable content -- meaning anything that might cause independent thought, which might cause someone to question the teachings of their church. Public school is dangerous for the same reason.

If they can create the theocracy of their dreams, they won't have to be so guarded against secular contamination. The only choices any of us will have, the only experiences open to any of us, will already have been "purified." Cd and book burnings won't be necessary because the unacceptable ones won't be published in the first place.

I don't have tolerance for those who have a stated goal of enforcing their religion as the law of the land. I won't pretend that religious "tolerance" requires that I sanction those who are working toward the establishment of a state religion.

[eataTREE]

74. To those convinced that Christianity is evil or worthless:

Please read the following blogs:

Real Live Preacher
Slacktivist

Both are written by evangelical Christian liberals who are wiser and better people than I will ever be.

[arwalden]

87. Many Here Are Mistaken

The wholesale assault on Christianity at DU just doesn't exist. There may be some bitter rule-breaking troublemakers... but they are the exception and not the rule... and they are dealt with post haste.

There is just NOT the rampant problem that so many ninnies are trying to make it out to be.

If I live to be a hundred years old, I'll never understand why so many "well meaning" crybabies choose to personalize and to be insulted at criticism and harsh words that are NOT intended for them, nor are such comments intended for people who practice their style of liberal or progressive Christianity.

It is just IDIOTIC to perpetuate this myth that an attack on ONE is an attack on ALL.

-- Allen

P.S. If you are not like the people in the picture below, then my harsh comments don't apply to you. (These are some of the actual picketers at Matthew Sheppard's FUNERAL!)

[donachiel]

83. Don't take it personally as I am sure that nobody meant any wrong

I too am a Christian. My children have attended Catholic schools. Our Bishop Martino did make a statement in the "Catholic Light" newspaper about the communion rites being taken away from anyone that would vote for someone who was pro abortion.

Many people I am sure did not take the time to read that letter in the Light but I did. What the Bishop said was that we needed to be extremely informed when we go to the polls to vote and vote for whomever's beliefs most closely resembled our's.

I too went to Catholic schools and was taught that discrimination is wrong. We are supposed to treat others as we would have them treat us.

I guess all I wanted to say is to try and be a little bit more understanding of everyone's beliefs in this forum. This is not the place to turn on others with a similar mission.

[Maestro]

84. As a Christian, at least I think I am, I'm so confused of late

it really is ironic that I think one of the biggest problems in US is the religious right, but we certain paint all Christians with a broad brush. There are liberal Christians out there like me! Anyhow, I bookmarked a great thread about right wing Christianity. Take a look. There is good info there.

Good thread on right wing Christianity with resources

[Winamericaback]

89. Religious Right

You aren't part of the religios right so why would that offend you?

Democrats can be Christians, I think most people are angry with the right wing Evangelicals that think its my way or hell. Those Christians voted for Bush.

Michelle

[BiggJawn]

93. Oh, why do we even bother.....

If you think "it's all about YOU", then there's no hope of explaining it to you.

Here's your homework assignment. go look up the terms "Christian Reconstructionist" and "Dominionist". if what you read is in agreement with YOUR Theology, then you come back here and fight us.

Because I'm dead-set against Dominionists, and if YOU are one, then i'm dead-set against YOU, too.

BUT....If what you read horrifies you as much as it does me, then let's have no more of this "I'm sick of all you bashing ME" drivel.

Fair enough?

"Every Knee shall BEND" my ASS!

[Pithlet]

106. Must. Not. Critisize.

Let's just stop fighting oppression against gays, non-Christins, the poor, etc. because some people's fragile feelings might get hurt. Didn't you know that?

Seriously, it doesn't matter that they aren't actually the ones getting bashed, unless they actually are working to further that oppresion. We mut keep our mouths shut. I'm tired of blanket threads condeming all people on the left, and people on DU in particular, because we want to fight the people on teh right who hide behind religion to further their cause of hatred. We should be uniting to fight against them, damn it. Not self indulgent whining. I'm tired of this crap. True Christians should be worried about the religious right along with the rest of us. Fight with us, damnit.

[arwalden]

111. Nicely Put!

:applause:

[Doohickie]

151. Hmmm... interesting. I just have to reply:

We should be uniting to fight against them, damn it.

And what are YOU doing to try to unite with moderates? Nothing that I can see.

Not self indulgent whining. I'm tired of this crap.

A plea against "self indulgent whining". Followed by a statement of "self indulgent whining". Nice.

True Christians should be worried about the religious right along with the rest of us. Fight with us, damnit.

We are; we really are. It gets a little difficult, though, when those on the left call for unity with us, then criticize that which we hold most dear (our Christian beliefs).

As it stands, we've lost the election. That means that there are more people who voted for the Repub than for the Dem. I can think of several ways to remedy that next time around, and almost all of them involve getting people who voted for the Repubs to vote for Dems next time out. That means that we need to look at the people who voted for Repubs that are closest to the Dem viewpoint and reach out to them.

As corny as it was, Kerry's hunting photo-op was just such an example. He tried to appeal to people who might have been just right of center but who were dissatisfied with the status quo. His big mistake is that the clothes looked brand-new, which implied he didn't do this sort of thing on a regular basis. He would have done better to buy some old hunting clothes at a Goodwill store. As it was, it came off looking like one of those guys who goes hunting by sitting in a chair just outside the lodge while locals drive the game toward him. It was a good idea, but poor execution.

[Pithlet]

156. Yes. We lost the election

It's not the time to play "find the scapegoat" As a matter of fact, more people voted for Kerry then any other Democratic candidate, ever. We still lost, but that is a sign that we're doing some things right, including Kerry.

What do you know about me and my relationship with moderates? I've always said here that politics was about compromise, and moderates are part of our party. I certainly don't want them going anywhere, and would love to work with them to better this party and win this fight. But what I won't do, is let them or anyone dictate what should and should not an issue for our party as a whole, without countering that argument and pointing out where they are wrong. We had huge turn out. More Democrats were motivated, and motivated to vote for our candidate than ever before. Christians pointing at Atheists, and Atheists pointing at Christians is pointless, and can actually do damage. Why on earth would we do that when, despite the loss, we actually accomplished a lot with our fight, and I think there will be a huge surprise come 2008.

Furthermore, and more to the point, it is not Christian bashing to discuss the religious Rights control of the Republican party, and their goals to turn this country into a theocracy. It's an important issue that plenty of moderates do agree with us on and see eye to eye. The ones that don't, or just want to cry "Christian bashing" only serve to annoy the piss out of the rest of us while we're working to beat the right. And beating the right means facing off those who use religion as a smoke screen to spread their hatred and oppression. They are a much bigger threat than the angry people on this board who are tired of religion being used as an excuse to hurt and hate and exclude, and rant about it.

[Selteri]

95. Personal views on the Religious Reich

The Religious Reich is neither, they have left behind the religion that they claim to be members of.

How many REAL Christians who are true Christians suggest that we should go to war of our own volition in the form of a preemptive strike?

How many REAL Christians should have the pure, unmitigated GAUL to name any military operation INFINITE JUSTICE?

How many REAL Christians promote revenge?

How many REAL Christians support the torture of prisoners?

How many REAL Christians would support an administration of deceit and fear?

How many REAL Christians would support the rich over the poor?

How many REAL Christians would lay a claim to infallibility?

How many REAL Christians believe that the bible is a mandate to rape the planet that God gave us stewardship over in the ideology to push forward the Apocalypse?

The answer should be NONE. Real Christians live their life in the most Christlike way possible, hence the title CHRISTIAN. To be Christian is to remember that the ideology is to live a humble life where they help all people by being sentinels of that which is good and proper in humanity. They lead by example by living a life in which they try to be good to everyone, regardless of skin color, sexual orientation or mistakes. That doesn't mean they are fools who forget those who have done wrong, merely that they know that they can leave the final judgment to God, but also understand that they are asked by the bible to also follow man's laws as long as those laws are not themselves wrong.

Those who are of the Religious REICH show themselves to be little of that. They care more about themselves, getting out of paying taxes and forcing their morality upon others. They ignore the laws of man and in many cases the laws of god to achieve their goals. They pervert the words and actions of Jesus to be able to explain their own hatred and pettiness.

President Bush, a Born Again Evangelical Christian is not a REAL Christian he is a member of the Religious Reich, if he were a real Christian he would not be giving billions or trillions of tax breaks upon the rich, but instead caring for the poor. He would not be lying over his own actions and hiding behind the secrecy of the presidency, instead he would be standing as a bastion of light and sentinel of freedom for all. Leading by example to true morality. He would not be forcing our children to be trapped in poor education where they cannot become better people or as the bible puts it, teach the children to fish. Instead he pays that subject lip service.

He would not have titled an operation Infinite Justice, that is reserved for God and God alone as the bible says. To take a title of such implies a stance above God.


If he were a real Christian he would not have promoted revenge against terrorists, but instead promoted capturing them and bringing them to human justice. There is a difference.
Romans 12:19 Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"

If he were a real Christian he would have stood at his podium and denounced the torture of prisoners in Abu Girabe and Gitmo Bay.
Mat: 25:40 - "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

I don't even need to go into the levels of deceit of this presidency, I shall merely quote another commandment. Thou Shalt not Lie. Luke 10-14: "Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, `God, I thank thee that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week, I give tithes of all that I get.' But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, `God, be merciful to me a sinner!' I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for every one who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted."

A real Christian wouldn't give tax breaks to the richest of people, instead they could give tax breaks to the poor and seek to help them through example.
Luke 16:19-32 "There was a rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate lay a poor man named Laz'arus, full of sores, who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table; moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried; and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Laz'arus in his bosom. (The rest goes that he then begs for water and is turned down for having been unwilling in his life.)

A real Christian would never be so prideful.
Proverbs 2-3: When pride cometh, then cometh shame: but with the lowly is wisdom. The integrity of the upright shall guide them: but the perverseness of transgressors shall destroy them.

Genesis 28:And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

A real Christian would understand that this doesn't mean that we should ruin the environment because he would have read the full statement, replenish doesn't mean destroy. That simple word is quite clear in it's meaning.

Where there is fear there can be no true love of the creator, God.


(PS.Sorry about the long post PPS I'm a dieist, not a Christian)

[Reality Not Tin Foil]

97. You're brave...Wish I was too!!

I'm a Christian as well but haven't made it known due to my low post count...I'm quite sure I would be bashed, flamed, ridiculed, called hateful, called a freeper and alerted apon if I did make it known.

I'm even afraid to praise the likes of Joe Lieberman, who I respect and trust.

This party has a long way to go before we start dominating again. And many on this forum need to grow-up and get out and experience the real world. The religious amongst us are the ones who, on average, do the most for the needy in this society. And I'm proud to be one of them.

Thank you for the opportunity to vent.

[arwalden]

114. Do You Interpret Harsh Criticism Of The Religious Right & Fundamentalists

as a personal attack on you or as a wholesale attack on Christianity? If so, why?

[Reality Not Tin Foil]

135. I see attacks on Religion...Nothing more, nothing less.

I don't care for Pat Robertson or Jerry Fallwell...I think they're both assholes, but I won't catagorize all "Religious" people as being like them. I think the term "Religious Right" is as overused as something like "Bleeding Heart Liberal" or "Tax and Spend Liberal".

And besides...In large, the comments I see here are not directed at this "Religious Right", they are clearly directed at anyone of faith. Such as Joe Lieberman.

[arwalden]

141. Then You Should Click Alert Whenever You See Posts Like That... Because

that is against DU rules and not allowed.

The wholesale and rampant attacks on Christianity that you're describing just doesn't exist. There may be isolated instances, but the mods and admins quickly clean it up and handle the situation.

What I'm seeing is hypersensitivity and trying to paint the bigots as the victims. Nothing could be further from the truth. It's the REAL bigots who are hiding their bigotry and justifying it with their religion.

[AndyTiedye]

152. What Should We Call Them? How about "The Dominion"

> I think the term "Religious Right" is as overused as something like
> "Bleeding Heart Liberal" or "Tax and Spend Liberal".

The latter two are generally used to make unwarranted generalizations
about liberals. "Religious Right" is used to distinguish the right-wing fundamentalists from other religious people, not used to indicate that all
religious people are right-wingers. Is that how you interpret it?

Perhaps we should start calling the right-wing-fundie-reconstructionist-domionionist types "the dominion",
like the evil aliens in Star Trek DS9.

[funky_bug]

118. Oh if you look, I've taken my fair share of bashing

But that's fine... It's funny when you think about it. My experience is that people who get their panties in a bunch, usually needed something pulled out of their ass anyhow.

[Pithlet]

99. You aren't the one getting bashed.

There are plenty of things to criticize about the religious right. Facing another 4 years of Bush is a very scary thing for anyone who's any kind of minority in this country, including non-Christians. If we can't be angry at those who would strip people of their rights because they aren't like them, or don't believe the way they do, then how are we supposed to fight? 99.9 times out of ten, when someone is bashing the religious right around here, they are NOT talking about you. There are some anti-Christian bigots here, but there are very few, and some of the most vocal were banned long ago.

Instead of these posts, which only serve divide, the same way the true Christian bashing posts do, and put people on the defensive, why don't you post about ways we can work and fight against the religious right. They ARE a problem, and they have one of their own running the country for another 4 years.

[arwalden]

115. Damn Woman!

You're on fire.

[Pithlet]

119. Facing four more years of

* will do that to a person. And, I don't think I've ever seen GD so full of unmitigated crap as I have today. Wugh.

[funky_bug]

123. Giving notice of sorts is not serving to divide

I'd like people to open their eyes a bit, and see where they are directing their anger. There are some people around here who feel the temperature is quite hot against the evangelicals right now. The anger needs to be redirected. It's been a long time since Christians were fed to the lions. Hate the RR or not, they aren't going away any time soon. You can thank LEFT BEHIND series for that.

Those who sided with Bush over abortion or gay-marriage voted their conscience. Do you honestly think that hate-mongering will bring anyone to a different understanding? Jesus! *no pun intended* Even the Baptists believe in "loving people to the Lord." What are we gonna do? Hate them to the GOP?

What serves to divide is intolerance. Asking for understanding, trying to share, or offering another perspective is a process called debate.

FYI - the ignore button may not be working, but if you don't like the theme of my post, feel free to disregard it. It won't hurt my feelings in the least. There are TONS of posts to read. I'll understand. Sorry DU is not to your liking today.

[arwalden]

130. What A Crock Of Apologetic BULLSHIT!

You make their bigotry sound noble and honorable. Hey! They voted their conscience... who can blame them for that, eh? We just have to understand and tolerate and love their selfish myopic bigotry because it comes from Jesus, eh?

How odd that you label our anger at the RW zealots as "hate mongering", yet you ignore or refuse to acknowledge the fact that this is EXACTLY what they are doing. Hate mongering and demonizing.

Do you HONESTLY think that these bigots are going to be "loved" and "tolerated" into not being bigots? Their abject hatred and bigotry in the name of Christ isn't up for debate... you're fooling yourself if you believe that it is.

Why do you choose to own and personalize the anger and ridicule that's clearly intended for our RW enemies? I don't need to redirect my anger. The anger is appropriately directed at the born-again Christian bigots and Bush lovers.

Stop defending them and stop making excuses. The anger and harsh words directed at them (and not you) is DESERVED.

[funky_bug]

133. You've obviously never been brainwashed

But if you have, then I apologize. I am not happy with those who use their "faith" as a "mandate." My beliefs guide my passions, but do not dictate how I expect the rest of the world to act.

I will not apologize for those I do not know, nor will I slander those I do not know.

"Peace and friendship with all mankind is our wisest policy, and I wish we may be permitted to pursue it. " That's Thomas Jefferson.

[arwalden]

140. The Fact That Some Folks Are Bigots Is Despicable ...

...the fact that some of them justify it with their religion makes it even worse. Unlike you, I do not hesitate to heap my scorn upon them for their shameful behavior.

No, technically, you're not apologizing *for* them, but you are suggesting that we excuse their behavior (or look the other way, or tolerate it, or allow it) simply because they are doing it in the name of their savior.

Religion has a LOT to answer for because so many well-meaning folks like yourself chose to look the other way and make excuses for them... instead of calling it out for EXACTLY what it is.

[AndyTiedye]

153. What Would You Have Us Do?

> It's been a long time since Christians were fed to the lions.

But it may not be long before gay people start getting fed to them.
(with DU'ers following shortly thereafter).

> Those who sided with Bush over abortion or gay-marriage voted their conscience.

You are now talking about the people who are not RW fundamentalists,
but voted with them on these issues. Many appear to have been
simply following the direction of their pastor in voting.

How do we reach these people?
Can they be made to understand that the theocracy is a threat to them too?

[Pithlet]

210. I don't put people on ignore

I also don't judge whole groups based on the comments of a few.

I will regard and disregard what I like. As a matter of fact, I think it is you who should take your own advice since DU doesn't seem to YOUR liking. Being full of a bunch of Christian bashers and all.

I'm sure you are actually quite pleased with the reaction your post has received. I could be wrong about that, but I doubt it.

[Bucky]

107. Thank you WWF!! You're dead on about that. So was Thomas Jefferson

There's a reason why we separate church and state. Church and politics should be no different. That is, it's perfectly okay to have your faith enform your politics--what decent religion could do otherwise? But religious faith has no place in a public policy debate. If something is good for Caesar, it's good for Caesar. If it's for God, it's for God. If you got a chip on your shoulder against religion, you still need to leave it out of your politics. People with different beliefs than you can still share your party.

Madison, by the way, made note of the fact that when they disestablished the Episcopal church in Virginia (ie, cut it off from state support) it both cleaned up the politicians AND the clergy. Today the faith-descendents of the original disestablishmentarians, the Southern Baptists, have completely forgotten the lessons of history and are co-mingling faith and government. The result: their church is being led and corrupted into a love of material wealth by demogogues like Jerry Falwell.

When the churches come out to participate in public affairs, as they must for the betterment of society, they should act as moral agents, not as political operatives. Otherwise they are rendering unto Caesar that which is God's. And that stinks.

[funky_bug]

120. As always, a voice in the wilderness

Nice to see you're still around Bucky! Thanks for the history lesson, and some sound wisdom!

[Democracy Died 2004]

121. I am sorry god has no place

in politics. please save that for personal worship or religous gatherings.

[funky_bug]

124. I AGREE!

ACK! I'm serious. Maybe I didn't state that as well as I should have - but being religious and being political can go hand in hand, PERSONALLY, but have no place at the same table GLOBALLY.

I'm right there with you... albeit I stated it rather poorly.

[AlinPA]

125. Any criticism I have is for Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson and their kind.

Not you. Also the holier-than-thou "Sunday morning Christians" we know so well who have no qualms about the suffering of the poor among us and who think nothing of wiping out innocent lives for a war started just to make a "war-time" president.

[Merlin]

127. Liberals have thrown the baby out with the bathwater

They rightly detest organized religion. They rightly condemn it for perpetuating absolutist beliefs in mythological tales (which form the basis of the bible).

They hate christian religions for warping the true teachings of Jesus. Faith has replaced the social justice message of Jesus as the most important thing a person can do. So religion blows off Jesus' messages of peace and care for the least among us, but insists on adherence to "faith" or the belief in things that can't be proven.

They hate evangelists for turning faith into a commodity to be hawked and exploited and used as a tool to extract money from--and control the "thinking" of--the faithful.

The problem is that in rejecting religion, liberals also reject God and refuse to use the true teachings of Jesus--history's greatest liberal--to support their positions. That is the equivalent of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

[arwalden]

132. Oh Brother!

:eyes:

[Merlin]

190. Where art thou?

?

[AndyTiedye]

149. That Last Paragraph Needs Some Work

You were doing great until you got to the last paragraph.
Did you really intend to say what this seems to say?

> The problem is that in rejecting religion, liberals also reject God

This is a vast overgeneralization. Are you not a liberal?

Some of us reject God, because God isn't part of our religion.
I am not sure exactly what you are asking us to do. Convert?

> and refuse to use the true teachings of Jesus--history's greatest
> liberal--to support their positions.

We have rather been hoping for you liberal Christians to do that,
or at least help us out a bit,
because you are more familiar with your own theology and can speak for it with conviction.

[Merlin]

189. Nope. It stands as stated.

Religion and God are not the same.

You can reject all organized religion and still believe in a God.

As for leaving Jesus to Christian liberals to use in trying to persuade others to the rightness of our cause, that's the foolish, short sightedness of liberals who refuse to use their best argument because they can't separate the man and philosopher Jesus from the mess that organized religion has made of his legacy.

[AndyTiedye]

202. We Need to Work on this Communication Thing from Both Sides

> Religion and God are not the same.

On that point we seem to be in violent agreement ;-)

> You can reject all organized religion and still believe in a God.

But you did not say "a God" you said "God", and it is capitalized.
There are many religions that do not recognize the Judaeo-Christian God.
Some have a different god, some a goddess,
some have many gods and goddesses, some have none.
Every religion, and perhaps every individual, is different when it
comes to the relationship between these us and any deities we may
or may not believe in.

I believe it was your intent to be inclusive, but your wording did
not convey that.

> As for leaving Jesus to Christian liberals to use in trying to
> persuade others to the rightness of our cause, that's the foolish,
> short sightedness of liberals who refuse to use their best argument

Most of us try to make such arguments when the other side plays the
religion which is why I said:

>>or at least help us out a bit,

because many of us don't know the best arguments of that kind.

> because they can't separate the man and philosopher Jesus from the
> mess that organized religion has made of his legacy.

How do we do that? We need something quick.
That "mess" is is eating our country. :scared::scared:

[Merlin]

204. Great Post, Andy. We agree.

Absolutely God is everyone's God.

I meant to convey the idea of God as the Creator or the Source of all things. In that sense, upper case seemed appropo. Certainly didn't mean Judeo-Christian God. (He's a son-of-a-bitch anyhow. Christ! He requires his only son to die because he's pissed about something that happened eons ago in Eden!)

Thing is, many liberals unthinkingly reject the idea of god because they just can't get past the ugly face religion has painted on him. Same with J.C.

> because they can't separate the man and philosopher Jesus from the
> mess that organized religion has made of his legacy.

How do we do that? We need something quick.

Actually, a friend of mine, a Lutheran minister who battles the right all day every day, is joining me in an emergency project to do exactly that. Right now we're both reading the Lakoff book (?) and the Thomas Frank book, "What's the Matter with Kansas" because they both promise to really help in that regard.

Our goal is to prepare a laundry list of liberal platform points, and back as many as possible with bible quotes and Jesus sayings to butress our arguments.

Thanks so much for your response. Let's stay in touch!

[MADem]

166. And the abrogation of the SOCIAL JUSTICE MESSAGE

of Jesus by the GOP is the thing the Dems can TRIANGULATE on, and WIN on.

Personally, I think people who need to wear their religion on their sleeve are insecure. Didn't Jesus say something about being humble in that regard?

I keep hoping all this faith-based crapola will jump the shark, and people will go back to doing their thing within their own religious communities, and leaving me and everyone else who does not care one way or the other the hell out of it. I'm sick to death of it, honestly. People should not be forced to be Biblical scholars to run for office or be effective. Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, eh? Oi vey!

[Merlin]

191. Wishing will not make it so.

The right has made a Faustian bargain with organized religion -- or is it the other way around?

Either way, it's here to stay, until we beat it to a bloody pulp. To do that, we're going to have to learn how to pick off the most vulnerable among them. That means we have to learn to speak their moralistic language, and invoke the name of Jesus -- the greatest liberal of all.

[MADem]

206. Too true, sadly...time for some triangulation n/t

[Christiana]

131. You're not the "right"...

When people discuss "religious right", they're referring to Christian Fundamentalists.

True Christians have to be liberal to follow the teachings of Jesus.

[Castilleja]

134. Can people please get down off the cross?

This is old, so, so old. I am tired of everything being framed in religion. Please stop. Cherish your beliefs and hold them close, to YOUR heart, please don't require others to follow suit. They likely will not.

[funky_bug]

136. I'm tired of it too

But like it or not, the media spun "moral issues" and suddenly we become defined as the immoral party. I respect your right to be tired of the debate, but I fear it is just beginning to surface.

Bush has his "mandate" and if the true Christians don't stand up to him, the false ones will change this country into something unrecognizable. Those of us willing to stand should be able to do so without being eaten by our own.

[Castilleja]

137. I do agree with you there.

But, the religious tone to everything has been around for a long time, and it is getting more and more strident. (I don't mean you personally or anything) It is encroaching on everything now, and it is being placed above any other issue in importance.

[Only Me]

160. That's because the last 4 yrs we've had a wacko in office. n/t

[kdmorris]

144. I do not believe that the Religious Right is Christian

In fact, one website I've been to calls them Dominionists, which is pretty fitting. These people use the WORST parts of the bible to justify their hatred. They hijacked your Jesus and turned him into a corporate greedy, avenging, death dealing angel. They don't seem to remember the "Blessed are the Meek", etc. parts of the Bible.

When I think of the Religious Right, I don't think about what I call Real Christians. I think of my sister, who believes that it is OK to bomb Falluja because they are all heathens anyway. They refused to accept her God and therefore, are not worth crying over.

This same person once called me a "child abuser" for letting my daughters go to hell.

I know how it must feel to have you religion bashed, and it sucks that these people have taken over your religion. But when I say "Fuck the Religious Right", I don't mean people like you, who truly espouse the teachings of Jesus. I mean those people who have stolen your Jesus and turned him into something unrecognizable. I try very hard to distinguish between you and those "others" anytime I say something about how sick I am of the Religious Right running our country.

I hope that helps some.

[fshrink]

147. The more you know, the less you believe.

[Divine Discontent]

154. it sure is easy to feel that way, I KNOW

but the more you trust in Christ, you're able to hold on. This world can really get us DOWN. Only Christ can lift us up.


The original poster is right, I'm liberal dem because I'm a Christian, among other things.


"it's hard to love, there's so much to hate, hanging on to hope when there's no hope to speak, and the wounded skies above say it's much to late, well maybe we should all be praying for time. do you think we have time? please give us time" praying for time -- George Michael

[DuaneBidoux]

155. That is why I proposed we get some naming in order

I said we need to use the word Christian to describe ONLY Christians. For example, Jimmy Carter. For people like Jerry Falwell and his ilk the term should be Christofascist.

Keep them separate, and know what they mean. The real thing, vs. a pretender.

[Only Me]

159. Excellent Point. n/t

[genius]

157. I'm a Christian and a liberal Democrat too. That's why I feel so bad

about what my govenment is doing. My country has violated every one of the Ten Commandments. Jesus would be opposed to everything the Bush administration stands for. Our government is blowing up families in their homes. Bush is not a Christian and neither are any of his supporters.

[Only Me]

158. There are thousands of Christian denominations...People are labeling the

ones they are angry at as Christians or Fundamental Christians.
Which is VERY misleading. It isn't Christians trying to take your rights away...it's religious extremists. Many fundamentalist are not among the Jerry Falwell's of the country. I wished people would call them what they are instead of tossing the word Christian around like it is dangerous. The extremist, the Falwell's and Robertsons, in bed with the Administration are the ones you are angry with. Not the 10's of thousands of churches in this country that have done nothing to you personally and are not trying to take your rights away.
Remember, their are thousands of denominations and 100's of 1000's of individual churches across this country. And not one will believe exactly as another. Christianity is a VERY individual thing. Even among larger more organized religion, they can vary from congregation to congregation. This is true country wide, in small towns and large.

It is deeply hurtful to many of us that have lived our whole lives believing that we are all equal and we all have to fight for the right to freedom of choice.

I think some, not all, of you are looking for a reason to hate something you don't understand. Or you think you understand, but you don't like it. That is no better than bashing gays, bisexuals, foreigners, people of color or nationality. We have to share this country with people that believe and live in ways many of us don't care for...but that is the nature of being free. We as a party want our Government to work for our issues..we must understand that our issues are not the same as everyone else's. And everyone else's may not be the same as ours.

The only thing, I as a Christian am asking is...please, understand you are using the wrong term for religious extremists. It's not Christians... A suggestion...Call the ones you are angry with "religious extremist", "religious right" or "religious wackos", it would be appreciated by all of us Christian Dems fighting for the same cause as you. Also, to an above poster, about our Christianity being hijacked...mine wasn't, And neither was thousands of other Christians.


Good Post Wife_of_a_Wes_Freak!

**WOAWF, This post was intended for some of the others. I agreed 100% with your post and really appreciated seeing it.

[nolabels]

161. Just like the fairy tale that is Santa Claus

It's curiosity that killed that cat. I have a few evangelicals around my work that really would be challenged to understand what spiritual philosophy was about. Not that I claim any better, but being a good Stuart with your fellow person is sometimes hard.

After the corporate media COUP D'ETAT was a half hour old one of these so called evangelicals at my work was getting nervous and wanted to know who was winning. I heard ABC had called it for Bush, so I told him that. He was all giddy and happy for the next few days, but on a couple occasions he felt the need to rub it in to me about the election. I played his little game off the first day, later as I found out more and more about the fraud and yet kept it to myself around him and still felt so much better. I started believing is Santa Claus all over again.

Of course this Guy that I first told Bush won (called by ABC) still ignores most of the things I like to learn about and still believes that most all them things that corporate media tell him are true. I don't think I could ever enlighten him in the ways of the world but at least he is happy for now. So in observance of so many things that have developed couple of weeks I think believing in Santa Claus is not such a bad thing after all :D

On edit: I can't write, spell or tell a story that well either, but still will keep trying :hippie:

[Only Me]

163. I empathize with you...I'm sure it's really hard

to work closely with people like that. I even feel worse knowing people like that think they voted that way for Christ. Some thoughts for your co-worker to ponder.

I always say, if a preacher at my church that I trusted, came to me and said (as some did)...You must cast a vote for a man that is a Christian and he will work for our cause, but your family and others around you may suffer further economic hardships because of it. But know that God will take care of you all... I would walk out and never go back.

Because I know, that God would never ask us to bring added hardship on ourselves or the poor people that share our country. He knows all.. and he knows many families and people are suffering and dying, because a lie this man told. He would never ask us to place politics infront of our basic human needs. Nor is their causes his causes...Christians only need their personal relationship with God as protection against temptation, not the supreme court to write new laws. Nor will writing new laws save the lost souls for Him. If anything, force can alienate the very ones God is truly interested in most. Christs' fight was for the poor, lost and downtrodden. If shrub went to war because God told him to stop the misery in Iraq...I would surely doubt it. If I had to guess on a country that I think God would want us to go into on a humanitarian mission, Iraq would not be on the list of Biggest suffers. But since it is the one with the oil.. well you know.

God also would not try to force the world to except him, thats why he gave us choices on all things. Why 12 apostiles wrote the last days with different perspectives. He also knew thru time many chapters would be removed by various politicians and kings to suit there social and political agenda. (I saw on Discovery Mary Magdaline's chapters was recently found in a wall and is still being transcribe and repaired.) The bible gives the foundation the rest is pure faith. Can't force that. Nothing about Bush is Christ-like to me. Some people walk the walk and talk the talk but somewhere between the head and the heart they got lost.

Have a good night.

[vision]

162. I am a LCD

Liberal Christian Democrat and I have nothing good to say about the Christian Right. They are so short sighted that they can not see beyond thierselves. They gladly use government services if they can and think that they deserve it but refuse the same for others. If it does not effect them or somebody they care aobut than it doesn't exist of matter.

I am a Christian and as such the goals of the Religious Right goes against almost everything that I believe in. They bash me and mine everyday so I lose little sleep or them being bashed in return.

I have been told that I am not a Christian because I think that abortion should be a medical concern and is not black and white. I have been called a godless Communist because I am a Democrat. So I don't care what they think.

[Baja Margie]

164. Just a few thoughts here.

I am not bashing you, nor am I bashing Jesus. I try to talk to Jesus everyday, if I remember. There's a good little prayer, the Jesuits use it alot, and it invokes faith of the whole grand mystery. It goes,"Jesus Christ, son of the living God, have mercy on me a sinner."

It is the exteme religious right I have a problem with, not Jesus. Jesus would probably shake his head in dismay at these people. They are self righteous, hypocritical, judgemental, unforgiving, and unkind. They have a penchant for believing that their fundamentalist outlook and strict interpretation of the Bible (New Testament that is) is the only true interpretation, regardless of that fact that they are neither trained Theologians or in most cases, even high school graduates.

It is a dogmatic and puritanical perspective, and it is psychologically twisted to meet their needs as insecure people. Moreover, it is dangerous. Think back in history and there are many examples of how this twisted version of Christianity incited death, hatred, division, bigotry, and war. This is not the Christ I want to know, their God is not my God. They are bearing false witness to the true Jesus, and they try to stuff their belief system down our throats, and it is despicable.

You say yourself you go other avenues for spiritual understanding and connection, and that is great. Myself, I'm 1/2 Jewish. But you are one of their moving targets, in their eyes, there is something deeply disturbing and wrong with you because you do not think and believe like them. And so, categorically, each one of us eventually makes their hit list.

When you hear or read people bashing the extreme right, understand that it is not Jesus they are attacking, or counterattacking, it is the authoritarian principles these people espouse and their reckless non insights into freedom and individuality.

Amen.

I don't care if it rains or freezes,
Long as I have my plastic Jesus....
Sittin' on the dashboard of my car...

P.S. I have some BITCHEN Holy H2O & dirt from Chimayo, if anyone wants any.

[noiretextatique]

165. fuck the religious right, inc

it's more of a business than a religion. fuck its defender, supporters, and pushers too.

[regnaD kciN]

167. I'm right with you...!

I've been saying for a long time that, if I really didn't believe that God exists, and that Jesus was the incarnation of God, that I'd probably be a conservative libertarian.

In fact, just after the election, when I was in the depths of depression, I spoke to my priest (who shares my political beliefs), and told her that I was seriously reconsidering whether I wanted to be a part of that religion. I was so sick of reading about how it was Christians who provided the decisive vote for Bush because of their desire for "moral values" (i.e. bashing gays). My determination to walk away from Christianity evaporated several hours later, when I realized that, to do so, I'd have to decide that Jesus wasn't really the human reflection of God -- and, if I thought so, what reason would I have for working for peace, justice, and reconciliation? (A side note: I'm not saying that other people, here or elsewhere, can't have a good reason in their own minds for working for such goals without sharing my religious beliefs, but I don't think I could.) In any event, I finished thinking this over with a determination not to walk away from the Christian faith and community, but to stay and fight what I see as a "hostile takeover" from the forces of the right-wing.

And, by the way, I would agree with the other point of your post...up to a point. I think that, in the past couple of years, I saw a lot of threads where it was considered acceptable to bash all of Christianity, on the assumption that "Christianity as a whole" = "right-wing fundamentalists." I must admit, though, that I've seen quite a bit less of this recently. It seems that people are focusing their gaze at the Christian world more, and going after those who deserve it rather than the faith as a whole.

[Neoma]

169. I'm sorry

i'm tired of god and christ and all that being an excuss for hating people. thats what EVERYONE is tired about.

I'm not christian,i choose not to belive god partly because i read 'demon haunted world by carl sagan' and partly because beliveing that theres an after life and wasteing your 1st life just to get to heaven to have sex with a bunch of virgins is a stupid thing to do.
(well at least most people i know do that!)
And my Relitives are very Dogmatic & fundy

My bible is not even a book. its 3 words 'Do no Harm'
Thats it! it has no afterlife but if you think their is an After life that for YOU to deside,not a church/cult.

Btw, if i may have a say so in other religions..
i don't think god or gods or gods sons or daughters or any other alien (well god is not human so..hes alien eh?) is a certain color or image,they are in every religion and they are in your own image, us humans can't go beond our own image,we can only go so far in our imagionation (god looking like a human..man in the moon),but we haved to see faces and with adults used to their parents from childhood,adults in a sense, needs parents too,but instead they go for a diffrent superior being 'god' to -say lead them to safe grounds.

[charlie]

170. Sorry

There's nothing much anyone can do about elective martyrdom. If you're gonna make the effort to be personally insulted by slights not remotely intended for you or yours, it's your problem.

[Neoma]

171. well ..

i meant that god should be for everyone by that,no matter what religion.
Thats not an insult.

[charlie]

172. Mine wasn't a reply to you, Neoma

It was for the original poster.

Look at the upper right of each reply box, it'll tell you who it's in response to -- in my case it reads, "Response to Original message" :)

[Neoma]

173. Wow that concept gives me a headache.

(thanks for the advice)

A person warned me about all the attacks on these forums tho so i over reacted.. :shrug:

[JNelson6563]

174. As an atheist

I have to say I cringe when folks just rip on any religion for the fun of it. I think the religious right can drive some to extremes and I think we should all be careful to remember that not all who are believers are working to achieve theocracy. We also need to remember there are many who believe who are totally live and let live.

If the Real Christians are ready to take their religion back from the Fake Christians I'd even be willing to help. I've started by teaching my kids the difference between Real and Fake Christians (as well as other religions).

The sooner we can all put our differences aside and concentrate on our common ground, the sooner we can achieve our common goals.

Julie

[erniesam]

205. I agree with you and will add that I am agnostic by faith

neither atheists nor believers have presented convincing proof to me regarding the existence of God. I do not consider good works in a persons life as evidence of a supreme being nor do I consider the lack of evidence regarding God's good works in this world as proof that God does not exist.

[Selwynn]

176. All I ask is that this communtiy to protect those who need protecting

Now is the time for this liberal community to protect all those who need protection, who need a place where they can feel secure and defending by a community that supports them. This would now include the many many believers in exile who have a personal passionate commitment to faith and feel totally completely alienated from the politico-religious mainstream.

[RaleighNCDUer]

182. And your wide ranging questioning within your own faith

is enough to get you sent to a Talibornagain re-education camp.

When the Xtian right is attacked, it is not out of hatred for Christianity or even religion in general. Even as an atheist I sometimes wish I had access to the comfort that others take in their faith.

But your own description of your faith separates you from those others.

They may also believe in free will, in action and consequence; in miracles and the power of prayer. They also believe in God, and that Jesus is not a figment or a parable.

But they do not believe in freedom of religion. They do not believe in ALL faiths... Buddha is an idol, the Amish are suspect because they aren't like them; they think Rumi is defense secretary, Kahlil Gibran is a terrorist. Their belief is astrology is strong, if it comes from a newspaper and, in one point of commonality, they live in a demon-haunted world.

They accept no-one who does not believe as they do. The alliance they have made with RW Jews and Catholics is only temporary and tactical. Once they've finished with the heathens and heretics, they will turn on their erstwhile allies, and then on the apostates.

When we bitch about the religious right, we aren't talking about you. In political analogy, you are the Menshevik to the RR's bolsheviks, and your religious liberalism will make you one of their first targets, along with Unitarians and Universalists, and gay Christian congregations.

Please, read up on Rushdoony. Find out where Dobson is coming from. Falwell's pleasant demeanor masks a dangerously authoritarian world view, and I, personally, would not place bets against Robertson being the Antichrist. Lets not even get into Sun Myung Moon.

These people are dangerous -- mostly to you and those like you who do not see the danger. I know I am their sworn enemy, because I am an agent of satan in their eyes, but you must recognize that you are as well.

The theocrats are real. Believe it.

[LWolf]

196. I'm not a christian.

but I'll send you a :hug:.

While I don't follow any organized religion's dogma, I try daily to incorporate these words and principles:

"Love your neighbor as yourself."

"Do unto others...etc."

And I live with the daily consciousness that I reap what I sow.

[HoosierClarkie]

197. Thank you for your post.

I have been very disappointed in the hypocrisy on DU in this area lately. For example... We are to respect everyone's rights, but just do not say you are a Christian. People say that we need to take our religion back because it has been hijacked, but how dare we come together here to do it! Ugh!

[kayell]

198. I won't bash you. I believe in valueing people by their actions, not

their labels. I expect other people to give me the same respect.

OTOH, please try to ignore for now the people who are screaming out simply because they are in pain. As with other animals, we often become irrational when grievously wounded, as many here have been by people who CALL themselves "christians".

[Rey Pygsterio]

199. I am also a Democrat because of the example of Jesus

However... I'd also like to say F the religious right. They aren't religious and they aren't right, and they are sinking this country. They are the Christian version of the Taliban.

[GOPBasher]

200. Who's bashing you??? You're NOT the "religious right"!!

You're a religious left winger, which is more in line with the teachings of Jesus. Who's bashing you? Certainly not me. But I do bash the "religious right" for missing the point of Jesus' teachings. You're not a member of them.

[sangh0]

207. I'd post the names

but DU's rules prohibit that.

However, I can quote comments. Do you think "Anyone that believes in a deity is mentally defective" is directed solely at the "religious right"?

[Pithlet]

208. And do you think

That whomever said that represents all of DU and liberalism the way Fred Phelps represents all Christians?

[sangh0]

211. Not at all

but I've noticed that similar comments about blacks/gays/women/etc start off threads that stay at the top of the 1st page, but when the comments attack the religious, people don't even notice them.

IOW, the religious bigots are small in number, but the reaction of the majority demonstrates that it is not considered as offensive as other forms of discrimination.

And your response is typical. Instead of commenting on the offensive slur, your one and only reaction is to point out that it is a minority opinion, which it is.

But I remember a thread last night, where one poster made some misogynistic remarks, and you did not take it lightly, nor should you have. Last night, you weren't thinking "This misogynist does not represent all of DU". You were thinking "What a jerk!" and your responses in that thread were a good example of how DUers should (and usually do) respond to bigotry.

So why would you respond differently if the target is the religious instead of women?

[Pithlet]

212. I'm not responding to an offensive slur, now am I?

Did you just make an offensive slur? If not, then your post makes no sense. I have not, nor have I EVER defended ANYONE who has posted an offensive slur.

What if, instead of responding to the misogynist remark, I had instead posted a new thread blasting all the men on DU? Including you. After all, you saw that post and said nothing. That must mean you're on that side. According to your own logic.

We won't even go into the fact that women's issues, and "Christian oppression" are not even on the same page. I don't have the patience to even begin that discussion.

[sangh0]

213. I didsn't say you responded to an offensive slur

I said the opposite. I said you did NOT respond to the offensive slur.

What if, instead of responding to the misogynist remark, I had instead posted a new thread blasting all the men on DU?

I think you should re-read my post. I thought your response was COMPLETELY APPROPRIATE.

[Pithlet]

215. I did misunderstand portions of your post, however

I don't understand why you brought my response in that other thread up. It seems to me that you're using that as an example of how I tolerate one form of bigotry, but not the other.

Also "IOW, the religious bigots are small in number, but the reaction of the majority demonstrates that it is not considered as offensive as other forms of discrimination."

This is where I think you, and the original poster are wrong. Because, even though it is never right to blast another person for their religious belief or lack of, and it should be rightfully called on, you cannot judge a group like DU based on your perception of their reaction to slams against Christianity. DU is a progressive board. Part of progressive ideals include fighting for the underdog, to put it as broadly as I can. Christians, in the US, as a group, are NOT the underdog. Again, to clarify, I do not think that leaves them any more open or deserving of attacks as any other group. However, as a group, DU may not be as aggressive against slights against that group, real or perceived. It doesn't mean that we, as a group, think that it should be open season on Christians, or any other religious group.

Edited to add that, re: my last post, I don't even think that is the case. I don't think DUers, as a group, wilfully ignore Christian bashing. Every time it has ever happened, it has been responded against. Every time. I really don't see what the problem is, frankly. But, my last paragraph was to point out that the plight of Christians is not the same as those of blacks, homosexuals, women, the poor. Therefor, some may not be as outraged when comments against that group are made, even if they don't agree with it. It doesn't mean they're Christian bashers. I cannot respond to every single post on DU I find offensive, so I pick and choose, and some issues get my attention more than others. Due to averages, there is bound to be a majority that tends to follow a trend on the "outrage meter". I'm not saying I belong anywhere on that scale. But, you cannot judge how I, or anyone else, feels about an issue based on what we do and do not respond to. It's impossible.

[sangh0]

219. NO, I never expected you to respond to posts you don't see.

This is where I think you, and the original poster are wrong. Because, even though it is never right to blast another person for their religious belief or lack of, and it should be rightfully called on, you cannot judge a group like DU based on your perception of their reaction to slams against Christianity. DU is a progressive board. Part of progressive ideals include fighting for the underdog, to put it as broadly as I can. Christians, in the US, as a group, are NOT the underdog

It's not about just Christians. The remark I quoted is not directed at Christians. It applies to Hindus, Muslims, Pagans, etc. I would also point out that liberal Christians (btw, I'm not christian) are not a majority.

However, as a group, DU may not be as aggressive against slights against that group, real or perceived. It doesn't mean that we, as a group, think that it should be open season on Christians, or any other religious group.

And I did not mean to even imply that DUers, as a group, think there should be an open season on Christians. My point is, that for whatever reasons, DUers do not react as aggresively to some forms of bigoted language (as even you acknowledge) and that is not right, IMO. If we are against discrimination and bigotry, we should not ignore it when it comes in one specific flavor.

[Pithlet]

221. See my edit of my last post to you.

I think you responded before that edit. It's a big paragraph. I think I address your last point there.

I do not think DU ever ignores bigotry in any form. I think you are wrong there. But, to expect that all bigotry will get equal attention all the time, and in the same way every time, and then to point out that is evidence of bashing or tolerating bash of whatever group that it is, is just looking for a slight. Even feminist issues. Sometimes a misogynist gets his/her ass handed to him/her. Sometimes it barely merits one post. It would be easy for me to focus on the times it doesn't get what I deem an adequate response, and then fume and blather and post my own thread about how women get bashed all the time. Especially if I wanted to stir up shit. And I think that 9 times out of ten, that is what these threads like the OP intend. And, if they don't, then I think they're just mistaken, like I would be if I were to focus on the times that the woman bashing gets little or no attention.

"DU is losing the women votes with their misogyny! I'm a Democrat because I'm a woman! Why does DU okay the bashing of women!" See how silly that would sound? I can't imagine posting THAT instead of addressing that post the way I did yesterday. It would have inflamed, and started a war. If that is what I had intended, the way I think some of the Christian bashing accusers do, then I would have succeeded nicely. And, it would have been ridiculous. Just like I think this thread the OP started is. Far better to actually work with the issues, and try to change this country's mind, both the left on the right, on feminist issues. And feminists get a MUCH bigger raw deal then Christianity in this country. We still don't even have equal pay. But, now I'm digressing...

[sangh0]

222. Thanks for that response

Every time it has ever happened, it has been responded against. Every time.

I have proof that it has not happened EVERY TIME. Your response is basically a denial that these comments are always addressed. They are not always addressed. Why would say that they are addressed EVERY TIME when you couldn't possibly know that to be true?

I really don't see what the problem is, frankly. But, my last paragraph was to point out that the plight of Christians is not the same as those of blacks, homosexuals, women, the poor. Therefor, some may not be as outraged when comments against that group are made, even if they don't agree with it.

So if the plight of Christians as a whole is not as great (if it even exists) as that of others, it's OK to make those sorts of statements? I disagree. I don't think it's ever OK to make those statements.

It doesn't mean they're Christian bashers. I cannot respond to every single post on DU I find offensive, so I pick and choose, and some issues get my attention more than others. Due to averages, there is bound to be a majority that tends to follow a trend on the "outrage meter". I'm not saying I belong anywhere on that scale. But, you cannot judge how I, or anyone else, feels about an issue based on what we do and do not respond to. It's impossible.

I agree, and I'm not trying to say that this is evidence of bigotry on the part of the vast majority of DUers. Nothing of the sort. But it does stick out in my mind when a significant number of DUers are allowed to post bigoted statements over and over without anything being done about that and with no reaction from the majority, when I know from experience that any other sort of bigoted statement is met with a very loud reaction.

The only time people on DU start to explain why these sorts of statements are not so bad is when they target the religious, so why should I assume that religion has nothing to do with it? Because Christians aren't oppressed in the US?

Since when is a bigoted statement OK?

And you know, Southerners, as a whole, aren't oppressed. If anything, they are the beneficiaries of welfare. They receive more tax dollars from the Fed govt then they pay. But when someone makes a bigoted remark about southerners, we get threads flaming about it for days.

But if you start a thread to make fun of Christians, everyone joins in, and no one objects, and the admin won't lock it.

[Pithlet]

224. Again. I stated more than once that it is never okay.

But, I'm willing to bet money that your evidence consists of a number of posts. But it is NOT the trend. And your very last sentence proves nothing. Plenty of objectionable threads on all kinds of subjects pass under the radar. They don't get locked, and no one responds to them. It would be easy to save them up over time and use them as evidence against a trend. I've been a moderator several terms, and I know for a fact that anti-Christian bigotry is not tolerated here, and never has been. I could take any one cause, claim that DU is intolerant toward it, and find threads to back me up. You can come up with those threads. But you cannot prove that they were willfully ignored because of an anti-Christian bias. In fact, I bet it would be a LOT easier to find sexist threads that weren't locked or negatively responded to. I bet you'd be shocked at the number.

Threads like the OP do nothing but stir up shit, and are baseless. I'm sorry, but I still stand behind that. It doesn't mean I think that anti-Christian statements are okay, or are any more okay than any other biases statements. Not in the least.

[sangh0]

225. Didn't say that

But you cannot prove that they were willfully ignored because of an anti-Christian bias.

I'm not saying that it's the result of anti-Christian bias. I'm saying there's a perception that, for some reason, those statements are not as bad as the others, or at least, they do not need to be reacted to as strongly as the others. Even you agreed that thet aren't responded to as aggresively as the other statements, so it seems that we agree on the differences in the reactions

However, I don't think the fact that Christians aren't oppressed in the country justifies the difference in how those statements are handled. IMO, no bigoted statement should be allowed and who the target is shouldn't count for anything.

And as far as trends, or the number of threads, etc - I can tell you for a fact that when the comments address religious issues, the criteria is different. Once I was told by admin that they wouldn't lock a thread, not because it wasn't bigoted (the admin agreed it was), but because "people are angry and they need release".

If the comments were about blacks, I doubt mods would have let posters continue making bigoted remarks.

And as far as the number of range of misongynistic threads, I'm way ahead of you. I'm just as dismayed by DU's reaction (as a whole) to this as I am to its reaction to religious bigotry, and the bigotry that is sometimes expressed to southerners.

It's ALL wrong, and NONE if it should be condoned.

[Pithlet]

227. What is the difference?

between bias, and a perception that those statements aren't as bad as others? It's like "I'm not saying it's blue, I'm just saying it's the same color as the clear, daytime sky". How else would you register bias on a message board? Tolerating kinds of bashing over others would meet my definition of bias.

Why did you even post the last sentence in response to mine? My fingers are going to fall off, because I've said it over and over that I don't think any of it should be condoned.

[sangh0]

223. My response to this post

I do not think DU ever ignores bigotry in any form. I think you are wrong there. But, to expect that all bigotry will get equal attention all the time, and in the same way every time, and then to point out that is evidence of bashing or tolerating bash of whatever group that it is, is just looking for a slight.

I'm not saying ti should be exactly the same every time. I'm just noting that it is ALWAYS less of a reaction, every time. But maybe that's just a coincidence.

"DU is losing the women votes with their misogyny! I'm a Democrat because I'm a woman! Why does DU okay the bashing of women!" See how silly that would sound?

If there was a history of DUers NOT responding to misogyny, then I think you SHOULD respond in that manner. And I would note that I never said that DU itself has "OK'ed" the bashing of Christians or the religious.

Far better to actually work with the issues, and try to change this country's mind, both the left on the right, on feminist issues. And feminists get a MUCH bigger raw deal then Christianity in this country. We still don't even have equal pay. But, now I'm digressing

Issues aren't mutually exclusive. We can criticize misogyny and any other form of bigotry at the same time.

[Pithlet]

226. Your ALWAYS is a perception

Just like my perception that we cannot discuss the religious right, and how they are trying to oppress us without accusation of religious persecution and bigotry. But, even I would not say that that ALWAYS happens, or that it means that Christians on DU are typically bigoted against non-believers. Which is essentially what the OP and others in this thread are saying about non-Christian DUers.

This thread was a blanket accusation against non-Christian and non-religious DUers in general, instead of putting the blame where it REALLY belong. With the people who ACTUALLY MADE THE BIGOTED STATEMENTS. Which is precisely my objection to this thread. I do not hate Christians, or think they are ignorant or hateful or stupid. Why should I be lumped into them with a general "I am a Christian, stop bashing meeeee!!!!" thread. Really, there should have been nothing but a bunch of posts with a single sentence. "I am a non-Christian DUer, and I've never bashed you or any Christian".

The OP probably posted in a fit of frustration, and that I can understand. But all of the posts in agreement, and her additional responses do nothing but paint all the non-Christian DUers in the same manor that they are protesting against.

[sangh0]

229. The OP does not criticize ALL or MOST non-Christian DUers

This thread was a blanket accusation against non-Christian and non-religious DUers in general

The closest I can find to that sentiment is:

" It amazes me that the same people bitching about the religious right and their theocracy, are also extolling their own beliefs as the only ones this party should adopt."

I see nothing in there that blamed "non-religious DUers in general"

And in the meantime, I see we have posts that say things like "I'll bash you -- happily"

[GOPBasher]

231. That's an idiotic statement.

Whoever said that certainly doesn't speak for me. I actually consider myself a Christian, though more and more the fundamentalists won't let me call myself that.

[HuskerDem]

201. I'm right there with you WIFE (fellow Clarkie to boot)

If the party wants to win any elections ever again, they had better quit ignoring us too. We are the demographic the R-right has been siphoning off with hate and lies. It does no good for our own party to continue turning away from us. It does a distinct disservice to the party and/or progressive, liberal values for so called "progressives" here to spit in our face.

The entirety of the the Democratic party has been successfully painted as dope smoking confused hedonists and rare-air "Hollywood" & Massachusetts elitist atheist intellectuals who want to abolish private gun ownership and tax middle America at a rate of 72%. IMO the only way to reverse this is to "take the fight to the terrorists"..... errrr.......Republicans. Bill was able to do it and we had 8 years of peace and prosperity. Now we have 8 years of death, destruction and debt.

[Pithlet]

218. Your post

is just as insulting to Christians as any other. I can think of nothing more insulting to say about ANY group, other than "Republicans are siphoning them off with hate and lies." I'm not a Christian, and I think you are VERY wrong there. Most Christians I have personally known would never tolerate the hate and lies that Republicans stand for. And I bet more than one Christian DUr here would back me up on that.

The Democratic party has only been successfully painted as "dope smoking confused hedonists" in the eyes of those gullible enough to buy that spin.

[drb]

209. Amen!

I've posted a very similar message here months ago myself!

[secedeeconomically]

216. During war fairness gets lost

Listen, I’m going to set you on the road to enlightenment. This is war. And in war, you have to take a side and a stance. Unfortunate for you, your God has been rented by Bush. Therefore, in my opinion its open season towards religion. I mean I could go on and on, on the inconsistencies of people who believe in God and that they are living with a false sense of hope and security, but that’s for another thread.
But all I will say is that religion is bad and bashing right wing is good.

[212demop]

217. It's not Christians or Christianity we're bashing

It's people who are so blinded by ideology they've used it to co-opt a religion and abandon reason to justify bigotry and hate

[EdibleEgg]

228. Yeah for Jesus

I hope he runs for president.

[dryan]

232. My 2 cents....

1.) I know of a lot of very religous people that voted for John Kerry over George Bush. There just wasn't enough of them!
2.) We are going to continue to loose the majority if we don't get off this attitude that if you are a religous person you are culturally and mentally inferior and your feelings are low-brow as well. This type of thinking just plays into the hands of the evangelical propaganda. Rove and Company used this against us this year.

[SleepingDragon]

234. For a more intelligent and thought provoking discussion of this issue, see

the following thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1335010&mesg_id=1335010

[Forkboy]

235. No one is bashing YOU

Quit playing the victim.