NH AGREED TO RECOUNT VOTES

[JudyM]

According to Black Box Voting rep on Randi Rhodes right now

[jean]

1. Andy Stephenson, Associate Director of Black Box Voting is on

[NJ_Lib]

2. OH MY GOD, It's true?

RECOUNT IN NH IS ON? (Sorry, thought NH, typed OH)

He said "accepted" not approved... Think there's a difference?

[JudyM]

6. No -- NH, not OH

[Flint-oid]

7. Not Ohio. New Hampshire recount is on.

That may prove problems.
And those problems may present arguments for looking at other states

[ClassWarrior]

78. If the electronic boxes are proven fruadulent in NH...

...it calls into question electronic voting in every other state it was used.

NGU.

[Flint-oid]

3. He said Nevada provisionals may change it from red to blue as well

[ROH]

40. I read on another thread that NM may possibly be going blue?

Still under way I think, but very close.

[Killarney]

4. Wait. What does NH have to do with it? We won NH.

[wuushew]

8. Proving fraud in that state lays groundwork for challanging other states

n/t

[JudyM]

10. BBV's plan was to start with NH

[Flint-oid]

12. It opens the door.

Nader petitioned to recount the votes in New Hampshire due to voting irregularities. Nader wasn't on the Ohio ballot, so he couldn't challenge it. However, problems most likely will be identified in New Hamphire. Those findings may be used as a reason to investigate other states: Ohio and Florida.

[rabid_nerd]

17. He wasn't?

How about the Green candidate? Can/will he challenge?

[JohnnyCougar]

51. I think Cobb was going to challenge in Ohio

[mzmolly]

31. Why didn't he start with Florida?

I guess that's my question.

[Eloriel]

See these threads for your answer

DU INFO ALERT: Why Recounting in New Hampshire Could Save Democracy
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2617155

Need Some DU Help w/New Hampshire Stuff!!! (URGENT)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=26802&mesg_id=26802

RALPH NADER MAY SAVE THE WORLD!!! (Its NOT Over in NH!) Updated Fri 8:15p
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x25116

Nader requests NH vote recount. (Did we just make a huge blunder?)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=965216

Nader, Cobb and Badnarik may all be willing to look into recounts in Ohio
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x26843

[wicket]

52. lots of great info, thanks!

[jmowreader]

89. Florida is too big for the quick results we need

The state we choose needs three characteristics:

Blue already (so challenging it doesn't look like sour grapes)
Very large swing between the exit polls and the counted vote
And small, so we can knock it out and use it to challenge Ohio, Nevada and New Mexico before the electoral college meets. (Ohio, not Florida; Bush may have won Florida fair and square, but the odds of his taking Ohio without "help" are far slimmer.)

New Hampshire works.

[BayStateBoy]

5. What is the probability Kerry will lost NH?

What we really need to recount is the FL votes.

[MsTryska]

14. Yeah, that's the thing that concerns me.....

are they agreeing to recount because they favor the republicans, or because they want to get to the bottom of things.


on the downside, keryr might wind up losing even more electoral votes.


on the upside, if they find something hinky, it opens up the floodgates.

[Mandate My Ass]

22. Kerry was up 17% going into last Tues. but won NH by 1%

I like this.

[hang a left]

48. Maybe it was a sting all along with Nader agreeing.

One can wish and hope can't they.

[m berst]

36. smart strategy

Kerry will lose NO state through reversal after an investigation. Everyone here should realize that.

We are trying to save democracy - which belongs to the people - not trying to 'win" for Kerry.

Challenging a state that Kerry has won removes any taint of partisanship from the effort.

[MsTryska]

41. See and this is my point.....

We save democracy, yay! but what happens after we figure out someone raped democracy?


we give the presidency to kerry instead?


Bush tells us all to suck it up. he's king forever?


or he get's impeached and it's president crashcart?


that's the bit i'm interested in....what happens after the other shoe drops?

[Zhade]

70. We'll just have to see, I guess. My thought? Lots and lots of riots.

If Americans still give a damn about their right to vote, that is.

[m berst]

76. this is a problem

If something is the right thing to do, then it is the right thing to do. We can't surrender democracy because it might get messy if we don't. History has shown that surrendering democracy is always the more dangerous course.

If we are going to weigh and balance the loss of our freedom with concerns of comfort or peace, we will have proven ourselves to be unworthy of freedom.

[ClassWarrior]

80. What happens if the other shoe DOESN'T drop?

Kiss your vote bye-bye...

NGU.

[txindy]

45. Exactly right

Plus, NH has a definite paper trail left by the op-scan machines. I also think that it helps that NH is a manageable size. That, along with a Kerry win, gives the impression that nobody is asking for the moon, here. That's next. :evilgrin:

[ClassWarrior]

79. Who cares? It couldn't hurt any worse...

...and it could help tremendously.

NGU.

[nostamj]

19. ZERO!!! but.... he should have won by MUCH MUCH more

the investigation could show that the bushies SKIMMED votes in blue states to give him the phoney "mandate"

[idiosyncratic]

21. With exit poll vs. actual results like this, how could JK lose?

[MsTryska]

38. Not to mention.....

Indian Astrologist predictions, tarot card readings, the Redskins, the red Sox, and the magic 8-balls clearly saying "all signs point to yes".



ps - i'm being dead serious.

[idiosyncratic]

43. And who was it who said JK would win but wouldn't take office?

Can't remember his very famous name right now . . . Duh!

[MsTryska]

50. I don't remember that one......

the redskins losing was enough for me.

[gordianot]

62. Gore Vidal

[librechik]

74. Greg Pallast n/t

[RubyDuby in GA]

57. I am seriously glad

that I am not the only one who consulted Magic 8-ball. :)

Yes. Definitely.

[MsTryska]

61. Did you're pop up with all signs point to yes as well?

if so it was the Universe's will and dubya and his friends are going to get shagged senseless for messing with the Order of the Universe.

[RubyDuby in GA]

72. It did

Everytime I asked it if JK would win. And really....Magic 8-ball doesn't lie.......

[hang a left]

75. Hey don't knock it till you've tried it n/t

[kostya]

71. Using a non-zero-based chart is a trick of scoundrels.

Don't look now, but your bias is showing and that doesn't help the cause at all. - K

[LifeDuringWartime]

88. i noticed that too

the numbers are actually a lot closer than the bar graphs would have you believe

[Jersey Devil]

9. Great! This the key to everything else

Optical scanning - paper trail for everything in a state where Kerry won by only a few votes with exit polls having him win in double digits. Of course it works both ways - if the recount shows the exit polls were simply just wrong the whole game is over. On the other hand..........

[JudyM]

11. 'Zactly - it's the start of the ball rolling nt

[theboss]

13. I still don't get how there was fraud in NH

NH doesn't use e-voting which, I've thought, has always been the basis of the argument.

But, I'm just an attorney. Don't mind me.

[shraby]

15. From the data that's been dug up, its

the optical scan machines that are the biggest culprits. Possibly Rove threw out a red herring on the touch screens and then used the optical scan for his dirty stuff.

[theboss]

25. Does NH use optical screens?

Or are we just grasping at anything here?

[Eloriel]

64. NH uses optical scanning

which offer all the same problems as touchscreens, EXCEPT that there is an inherent voter-verified paper ballot involved.

Optical scans use some of the same software as touchscreen systems (esp. if produced by Diebold, but also ES&S I think), can be rigged, can be hacked, can be just as error-prone, etc.

[juajen]

94. It's the vote counter where the votes are stolen

e-voting machines and opti-scan machines are all counted by the samevote counting software in a central location (Gems software). Precinct totals are fed into the machines from e-vote and opti-scan machines, and it is here that the vote can be skimmed.

I read somewhere, I think it was Bev who said it, that if you can get to the machines there is a core something or other there that will have the accurate totals. Remember that example where she said there were three places where you place the vote, sorta like three-card monty and you skim from one place, and this is where they take the totals for the county, which then goes to the state. Then if you need to verify the vote, you take it from the pile that has not been fooled with. I know, I'm just simple-minded when it comes to numbers, but I think that's right.

* had to skim votes from many states to come up with a popular vote win, dem as well as pug states. The easist were the dem states, for who would look there, since Kerry carried them. Gee, maybe us? Hopefully their greed will catch them. Three million votes my ass!!

[Heath.Hunnicutt]

49. I bet it's another red herring.

I think they hacked the tabulators, but only changed optical precincts. This gets people looking somewhere other than the tabulators, and in particular, the incoming telephone modem lines there.

[Jersey Devil]

16. In NH exit polls showed K up double digits but he won by a whisker

They use optical scanning and can print out all votes made. If a final tally of the paper vote says Kerry really won in double digits and someone messed with the computers or the computers were that unreliable then it would also apply elsewhere.

[peekaloo]

18. possible vote skimmimg to pad Bu$h popular vote.

[Jersey Devil]

28. I would go farther than that

They just didn't think it was necessary to skim more and were basing what they did on PRE-election polls that had Kerry up only a point or two.

[peekaloo]

37. I wouldn't disagree with that scenario JD.

[Eloriel]

65. I think they just miscalculated

IOW, tried to win NH but missed, ever so slightly. JMO. Doesn't matter what their goal was, we're about to get to the bottom of the results, aren't we? I couldn't be more pleased. Thank you, Ralph -- AND a bunch of wonderful, courageous, tenacious DUers (esp. IdaBriggs and Hedda_Foil):

DU INFO ALERT: Why Recounting in New Hampshire Could Save Democracy
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2617155

Need Some DU Help w/New Hampshire Stuff!!! (URGENT)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=26802&mesg_id=26802

RALPH NADER MAY SAVE THE WORLD!!! (Its NOT Over in NH!) Updated Fri 8:15p
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x25116

Nader requests NH vote recount. (Did we just make a huge blunder?)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=965216

Nader, Cobb and Badnarik may all be willing to look into recounts in Ohio
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x26843

[Jersey Devil]

68. agree - based their cheating percentage on inaccurate pre-election polls

that showed it a real close race. If that were the case they would have had Bush winning by a healthy margin and no requests for a recount with the cheating that was done (assuming it was done).

[goclark]

91. Yea Eloriel ! This is fantastic!

Isn't it amazing that we can be so surprised that someone in the Media would actually tell the TRUTH!

That is so amazing, but let's never stop working.

We are the worker bees!

Where is the Media Lists, Let's send it to all the others and say they are suppressing the VOICE of the People and BUSH suppressed the VOTE.

Our voice and our Vote were stolen and we are now mandating that we get both back!

[TexasChick]

20. theboss, well, it's kind of weird, the exit polls showed Kerry being in a

15% lead and towards the end of the election, he was only 1% ahead. From what I understand, NH is heavily democratic, I think? Plus, you've seen what they did in OH with the other types of voting machines. 4,000 extra votes here and there could really add up for the chimp! It's not just a problem with the e-voting machines.

[theboss]

23. NH heavily democratic? Step away from the pipe.

Good God. This is the "Live Free or Die" state. It's the last bastion of New England Republicanism. It has been trending Democratic for the last decade due to refugees from Massachusetts however.

And, I think a good attorney could keep this case in court for years just based on the methodology of the exit polling.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[theboss]

34. This is my point

Everyone is just grasping wildly at anything that can give them a slimmer of hope about this election? We have people thinking NH is a Dem stronghold and folks who have never heard of Dixiecrats and people blaming Diebold for optical scan ballots and now we are recounting a tiny state that we won.

Am I am supposed to get excited about all this?

[JohnnyCougar]

60. listen, man

As far as I'm concerned, the exit poll discrepancy versus the actual vote totals is the strongest evidence of fraud we have right now. None of the other stuff, besides the "oppsies, we gave an extra 4,000 votes to Bush in Ghanna(sp?) county in Ohio" is anything but speculation.

Why not recount the state where the discrepancy between exit polling and actual vote was the largest? The fact that EVERY exit poll showed Kerry ahead compared to the actual count and NOT ONE showed Bush ahead compared to the count is suspicious to me. Exit polling is the number one method of checking for voter fraud.

If there is fraud in NH, we can build the case for fraud everywhere.

[Eloriel]

66. Maybe you'll get a little excited about this

VOTE FRAUD Links - a DU Compendium
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=201&topic_id=1984#

Or maybe not. Maybe you're just predisposed to be a naysayer. :shrug:

[Pallas180]

84. ELORIEL - YOU HAVE DONE 1 HELLUVA JOB !! KUDOS MADAM.

!

[juajen]

96. Ah, hell, you just don't get it

No amount of explaining will do for some folks. Once again, if you are tryihng to win the popular vote, you skim from everywhere you can get away with, but especially enticing are small states where nobody expects you to skim! Get it?

[nostamj]

26. and... according to the count....

RURAL NH (hand-counted paper ballots) was more for Kerry than URBAN NH (optical scan).

it was skimming to secure the PV, not stealing the state....

[AP]

33. It could have been skimming for the EVs that came up short because of

better than expected Dem returns in the rural areas.

[Junkdrawer]

24. CHAIN OF CUSTODY....

What's the proof of Chain of Custody of the paper ballots?

I'm concerned that the Republicans will now produce faked op-scan ballots to match the hacked results.

If the recount "matches up" here, it could prevent all further inquiry.

[ibegurpard]

30. This is my concern as well.

Someone needs to get a court order or something to secure all those ballots NOW while all the recount questions are settled.

[Jersey Devil]

32. My worry too, but NH Gov is a Dem and I am hoping

she kept an eye on this stuff.

[whalerider55]

42. a little more info on NH

the Democratic governor of New Hamphire (John Lunch) doesn't take office until January. CUrrently the Republican Governor is Craig Benson. You may be thinking about Jean Shaheen, the very popular former democratic Governor of NH who ran against Sununu for Senator in 2002 and lost...

my thinking is that 2002 was a practice run for perfecting the technique in 2004.

Whalerider55

[Jersey Devil]

46. yes, my goof - CRAP!

Hopefully they have a law that provides all machines be impounded pending recount and an honest state police department.

[Tab]

98. Lynch, not lunch...

Sheesh

[Heath.Hunnicutt]

53. The number of ballots should match the number of signatures. nt

[JohnnyCougar]

63. I wouldn't be too worried of this.

A coverup is more likely to be exposed than the actual crime. The actual crime, in this case, could have been committed by one hacker, if he had the knowledge. To cover up, and change the paper ballots and get them in authenticated areas will require alot more people, and a larger possibility of a leak.

Forcing a recount is a good thing to do.

[mzmolly]

27. Good, let's hope this pans out because if it doesn't we can kiss Ohio

and Florida good bye.

[Jersey Devil]

35. Yep, this is the whole ball of wax, the giant enchalada, the

entire cheese wheel. If it turns anything up Kerry comes flying out of his bunker, if not he seals it up for the winter.

[theboss]

39. What is the basis for Nader's challenge?

"Irregularities" seems impossibly vague to me. (Againg, don't shoot me; I'm just an attorney). Are there any documents on this?

Of course, NH is so small, he could probably call Flo down at the clerk's office and get this resolved.

[Jersey Devil]

44. I don't think a candidate needs a reason for a recount in NH

All he has to do is file and pay the fees.

[txindy]

54. Here's what Nader wrote to NH

The link to his letter requesting a recount in NH:

http://www.votenader.org/media_press/index.php?cid=400

[Eloriel]

69. Additional links (DU)

DU INFO ALERT: Why Recounting in New Hampshire Could Save Democracy
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2617155

Need Some DU Help w/New Hampshire Stuff!!! (URGENT)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=26802&mesg_id=26802

RALPH NADER MAY SAVE THE WORLD!!! (Its NOT Over in NH!) Updated Fri 8:15p
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x25116

Nader requests NH vote recount. (Did we just make a huge blunder?)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=965216

Nader, Cobb and Badnarik may all be willing to look into recounts in Ohio
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x26843

[noiretextatique]

56. i think it was the margin of victory in NH

that allows Nader (any candidate in the race) to ask for a recount.

[Mist]

47. After this, the deluge?

On to OH and FL! (And NV. And IA)

[wuushew]

59. I really wonder to what extent * stole Iowa

Besides the key targets of OH and FL one of the very small number of ways to tie the electoral college was Gore + NH + NV. Bush's christo-fascist agenda relies on the myth of a mandate either popular or electoral. A tie would destroy that immediately despite providing a win for team BFEE.

[progressivejazz]

55. Am I the only one who remembers Sen. Bob Smith's last win?

I'm not sure when, maybe 1994. Smith was a particularly repulsive Republican from New Hampshire. On election night, the networks called the race against him very early, on the basis of exit polling. They made it sound like it wasn't even close. I was in ecstacy. Bottom line. He wound up winning.

After the election, people in New Hampshire said they had lied to the exit pollsters, seemingly just for the fun of it. Who knows? Maybe they were lying then. But the New Hampshirites I've known have been just the type to do such a thing to put one over on the "city slickers".

For this reason I've always thought New Hampshire was the worst state to pick to check exit polling data against actual results.

I don't know if we're screwed in OH and FL if the recount in NH doesn't go our way. I hope not. I'm very fearful right now.

I hope my memory is wrong, but I doubt it because my wife remembers the same thing.

[Politicub]

58. I can't wait to see

How a vote cast with one of the BBV machines is "recounted."

This recount and any resulting court cases may make BBV a thing of the past for the whole country (I can dream, can't I?)

[Tab]

67. No one else seems to know about this...

I can't find it on any news place anywhere... they seem to be the only ones who knows about it. You'd think an official state decision would be announced somewhere.

[Junkdrawer]

73. The numbers from 2000 and 2004 are not that different....

2004:

http://www.sos.nh.gov/general%202004/sumpres04.htm

2000:

http://www.sos.nh.gov/general2000/sumpres.html

What if Rove got AP to do a phony exit poll and then arranged to have Nader "challenge" the results?

I smell a rat. If the results line up, the media will insure that the issue never sees the light of day again.

Look at it this way: If there was malfeasance, do you think they would do a recount without taking it to the SCOTUS??

[tandem5]

90. I know...

I've been saying that too. It's a very effective strategy to play up something we discover then crush it to prevent further discussion.

[theboss]

77. Is this actually happening?

There is only one story on this and does not mention if the recount has been agreed on:

N.H. news briefs

Nader-Recount

CONCORD, N.H. (AP) — Ralph Nader has requested a recount of the presidential vote in New Hampshire, but the state says the request is not valid.

Nader believes there were irregularities in some voting machines that favored President Bush, but because he did not send a check with the request, the state says it’s not valid.

The deadline for recount requests, and checks, was 5 p.m. Friday

[JudyM]

81. Yaaah, Baby! nt

[Pallas180]

82. but I just heard NH turned Nader down. ???

so which is it?

[librechik]

83. Olbermann(mins. ago) reported Frday's story about the turndown due to

absent check. I've been trying all day to see if anything else happened in NH or with Nader, but no news on the wires. I hope something good happened!

[Pallas180]

86. xrist. how could Nader go without a check - really!

not even a comedy of errors.

a nightmare of errors.

[berry]

85. Keith Olbermann on Countdown

said that the NH SoS was willing to grant the recount, but that Nader had neglected to include a check for the required fee. Don't know if this is correct, or if there will be a chance for him to get the money to them. It sounded like Nader had blown it, but it wasn't altogether clear.

This is nerve-wracking.

[Killarney]

87. Olbermann said a "late-breaking story"

meaning... late today... that NH turned Nader down.

I think, unfortunately, Randi may have been wrong.

[Junkdrawer]

92. I just crunched the NH data (on a county level)...

and what I see is that Bush got almost exactly what he got in 2000 and Kerry got what Gore+Nader+Others got in 2000.

By all means recount, but don't bet the farm on New Hampshire.

[idiosyncratic]

93. How do you explain this?

Exit polls in other States showed much more correlation with actual vote.

[Junkdrawer]

95. The exit poll is the one thing out of whack...

Now, tinfoil hat firmly in place, what if Mr. Rove wanted us to put all our chips on NH which may be mostly clean?

Perhaps AP/Fox/CNN floated a *troubled* poll for this purpose?

[Junkdrawer]

97. PS: I do, however, see Ida Briggs point about Hillsborough and Rockingham

The two largest counties are about 2 - 2.5 % out of trend in favor of Bush.