Can Clark Beat Bush?

[retyred]

Can Clark Beat Bush?
By E. J. Dionne Jr.
Tuesday, September 2, 2003; Page A21
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A12211-2003Sep1.html

If Gen. Wesley Clark decides to run for the Democratic presidential nomination, he will be relying on the same sentiment that has turned Howard Dean into the insurgent front-runner.

On paper, Dean and Clark could hardly be more different. Clark is a southerner, Dean a New Englander. Clark spent his career in the military. Dean is a doctor who has spent years in state politics. Clark is presumed to be a centrist along the lines of his fellow Arkansan, Bill Clinton. Dean has a moderate history, but has used the late Paul Wellstone's mantra -- "I'm from the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party" -- to turn himself into a hero of the party's left.

But none of these things matters nearly as much as the single overpowering fact of Democratic presidential politics this year: the deep, gut-level dislike that so many Democrats feel for President Bush and their passionate desire to remove him from office.

_snip_

But if Clark does prosper, he, like Dean, will owe a great deal to George W. Bush. Parties desperate for victory do unusual things, including turning to generals. Clark presumably is studying the success of one of the most brilliant politician-generals in American history, Dwight D. Eisenhower. But Ike could rely on party bosses to ease his way. Clark and his fans on the Web will have to do a lot of the work themselves.

********************

I see a long road ahead for Clark this late in the game but stranger things have happened. It just may be time for a non-political change of face in Washington.



Retyred IN FLA.
“Good Night Paul, Wherever You Are”

[wndycty]

1. I say he can beat Bush

:kick:

[diplomats]

6. I agree 100 percent

[DoveTurnedHawk]

2. Clark Would Beat Bush Like a Drum

IMO, he is the most electable candidate the Dems could put up.

DTH

[TennesseeWalker]

14. Clark can lick Bush!

Whoops....what's this thread about, anyway?

[RedEarth]

3. I think Clark would stand the best chance

of any of the other candidates. However, regardless who is nominated, I would vote for them.

[grasswire]

4. yes in a cakewalk (eom)

[Ediacara]

5. Yes

I think Clark could beat Bush. I also think that Dean and Kerry could too. I am not so sure about Edwards and Graham, and I do not think that Lieberman or Gephardt could. Kucinich, Sharpton, and Mosely-Braun are so unelectable they're not even worth considering.

[Pepperbelly]

7. Wesley's biggest problem AND opportunity ...

The latest Zogby did the 'favorables' on Wesley and while his favorables were higher than his unfavorables, both were anemic compared to the 'don't know enough'.

That means he comes into it tabula rosa ... the blank slate so far as public opinion goes. That means that if doesn't manage to quickly define himself, the gops will do it for him.

Quickly.

Negatively.

If he decides to run, he is going to have to EXPLODE onto the scene, defining himself steadily in the process. I think that his best bet is to define himself while simultaneously re-defining Bush as the incompetent wanker that he is. I think it would be Clark's best route to ignore the other Democratic contenders except to compliment them and never rise to the bait of attacking them.

I think he could make a very good case for himself regarding why he should be President. I think that the tactic of pointing out what the others lack would be a bad strategy.

I think he could kick Bush's ass in the general election IF he manages to define himself before the media and the RNC indelibly label him to their liking.

[Julien Sorel]

9. He has to get in the race.

Even I am getting tired of this crap. I don't know if he has some kind of bombshell he's ready to drop or not, but this is getting ridiculous. The guy used to be a distance swimmer; he should realize that you can only fall behind so far before even a great kick won't save you. He needs to jump in and hit the effing trail; I'm tired of watching these second-raters get all the publicity.

[Pepperbelly]

10. I would expect the anouncement within ...

the next two weeks. If he got his wife on board, they are no doubt evaluating whether it is doable.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

11. They Need to Evaluate More Quickly

Every day that passes is a missed opportunity, IMO.

DTH

[Pepperbelly]

45. The man is about careful ...

and you don't go into a major endeavor half-assed. If it's half-assed, one should just stay on the porch.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

47. Careful Is Good, But Sometimes Bold Is Better

He's been thinking about it seriously since late Spring. It's now getting to crunch time. I don't think it's too late now, but I think it will be soon. And this is coming from a diehard Clark supporter, as you know.

Keeping My Fingers Crossed,
DTH

[Pepperbelly]

49. naw ... plenty of time ...

relax ...

The polling shows that almost 3/4s of the Democrats cannot even name who is running for the nomination and the big money donors have thus far sat things out.

If Wesley has as much sense as I know him to have, he is using some of Bill Clinton's best people to evaluate the polling that I suspect has already been done.

It is time to be bold after you make sure that you have the cards. Bluffing works fine for poker but not for this sort of move.

[mcaverly]

44. Pepperbelly, that was eloquent

You are so correct. Your post should go to the Clark people..

[Pepperbelly]

53. thanx ... just my p.o.v. nt

[davidinalameda]

8. one word

yes

[Media_Lies_Daily]

12. I have some serious doubts about former General Clark...

...and most of it has to do with his long association with Colin Powell and the other senior officers of the General Staff of the Army. Nobody rises to the rank of general in the Army without being in lock-step with the top ranking officers. Even though Colin Powell is currently head of the State Department, I don't trust Colin Powell as far as I could throw the Pentagon. That gives me some major pause for concern about Clark.

Here is my worry. He says all of the right things and he appears to be doing all of the right things, but what is he really thinking? I have the gut feeling that Clark has one or more hidden agendas.

What if Clark is working with the GOP to help splinter the Democratic Party? And if this were true, and he should by some chance win the Democratic nomination, wouldn't that give the GOP two chances to win the White House?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

13. A Conspiracy Theory for Every Occasion, I See

:eyes:

DTH

[Media_Lies_Daily]

62. Whatever. Stranger things have happened. Remember the election of 2000?

Or do you thing somebody's just peddling a conspiracy theory for that, too? How about the Warren Commission? How about the recent 911 Commission?

Believe what you're reading in the press if you want, but remember who owns the press. Oh, wait...that might be seen as a conspiracy theory, too.

After all of the crap that the Bushies have pulled over the last 4-5 years (yes, even prior to the 2000 election), do you think this kind of maneuver would be beyond their thinking?

Wake up, buddy.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

85. Do You Beat Your Significant Other?

Hey, it COULD be true, right?

:eyes:

DTH

[oasis]

15. Isn't "saying all the right things" a good thing?

:shrug:

[Media_Lies_Daily]

63. Bush said "all of the right things" before the 2000 election, didn't he?

How has that turned out so far?

[11cents]

16. Uh -- of course he's "associated" with senior officers!

Because he was a senior officer himself. I mean.

His book has some interesting low-down on how officers *really* advance -- basically, by finding a sponsor amongst the higher-ups. If your sponsor crashes and burns so do you; your career's officer. Clark worked closely with Powell at one early point (helped him come up with the first version of "the Powell doctrine"), but his crucial sponsor was John Shalikashvili, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs during much of the Clinton adminstration.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

68. Uh...thanks so much for the condescending subject line....

...yes, I know very well how senior officers advance...I've seen enough of them do it, and I've seen how they do it. I also know that you have to have a certain mindset to be allowed to advance.

And speaking of John Shalikashvili, it doesn't matter who appointed him as Chairman of the JCS. He was highly recommended for the job by Colin Powell who Clinton trusted at that time. Did you know that Shalikashvili was born on 27 June 1936, in Warsaw, Poland? He is the grandson of a tsarist general and the son of a Polish army officer. That means he grew up in a household that was extremely rightwing and anti-communist. Tsarists were known as White Russians (as opposed to the Red or Communist Russians) during the Russian Civil War. The White Russians lost the war and scattered throughout Europe...quite a few settled in the U. S. after WWII.

IMPORTANT NOTE: From 1958 until the collapse of the old Soviet Union, Shalikashvili was a dedicated Cold Warrior. He fit in just fine with people like Paul Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld, and the rest of the individuals that surround the Bushies today. Based on the fact that Clark was sponsored by Shalikashvili, do you still insist on thinking that Clark is okay? Read on for more information on Shalikashvili:

Shalikashvili and his mother fled Poland in 1944 and settled in Germany. Any guesses what happened to his father in Communist-occupied Poland? Young Shalikashvili immigrated to the U.S. with his mother at age 16 and settled in Peoria, Ill.

Shalikashvili earned a Bachelor's Degree in Mechanical Engineering from Bradley University and a Master's Degree in International Affairs from George Washington University. His military education includes completion of the Naval Command and Staff College and the United States Army War College.

Shalikashivili was drafted into the army as a private in 1958 and was accepted to Officer Candidate School. He graduation from Officer Candidate School in 1959, and was commissioned a second lieutenant in the Artillery.

Following his commissioning as a second lieutenant, he served with the 9th Infantry, and later the 15th Artilery, in Alaska.

From 1961 to 1963, Shalikashvili taught at the Army Air Defense School. He was promoted to first lieutenant in 1961 and to captain in 1963. In 1963, he attended the Artillery Officer Advanced Course. From 1965 to 1968, he was assigned to the 32d Artillery Defense Command, United States Army, Europe. He received his promotion to major in 1967.

Shalikashvili then served as a senior district advisor, Advisory Team 19, United States Military Assistance Command Vietnam until 1969. From 1969 to 1970, he attended the Naval Command and Staff College. From 1970 to 1977, he served in a variety of posts in Korea, Fort Lewis, Washington, and Washington, D.C. In 1977, Shalikashvili attended the United States Army War College. He was promoted to lieutenant colonel in 1974.

From 1978 to 1979, he served with the United States Army Southern Europe Task Force, Italy. The next two years, he commanded the division artillery of the 1st Armored Division, U.S. Army, Europe, in Germany. In 1978, he was promoted to colonel. Shalikashvili then served in the Office of the Deputy Chief of Staff of the Army until 1984.

Shalikashivili was promoted to Brigadier General in 1983 and assumed duties as Deputy Director, Strategy, Plans and Policy on the Army Staff.

Shalikashvili became the assistant division commander of the 1st Armored Division in Germany in 1984 . He served as the Assistant Deputy Chief of Staff for Operations and Plans (Joint Affairs) and then as Deputy, Chief of Staff of the Army for Operations and Plans from 1986 to 1987.

Shalikashvili was promoted to major general in 1986 and commanded the 9th Infantry Division until 1989.

Shalikashivili was promoted to Lieutenant General in 1989 and served as Deputy Commander-in-Chief of United States Army, Europe and Seventh Army.

Shalikashvili took command of Operation Provide Comfort in April of 1991, and won praise for his leadership of the multinational force. Shalikashvili was called to Washington, D.C. in August of 1991 as Assistant to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

General Shalikashvili was promoted to general in 1992 and served as Supreme Allied Commander, Europe (SACEUR) and Commander-in-Chief, United States European Command from June 1992 until October 1993.

General John M. Shalikashvili was appointed the thirteenth Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Department of Defense, by President Bill Clinton in 1993, to succeed General Colin L. Powell

General Shalikashvili's appointment (CJCS) was largely due to his able response to the Balkans crisis.

General Shalikashvili assumed his duties on October 25, 1993, and served as Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff until his retirement on October 31, 1997.

General Shalikashvili is the only foreign born officer to serve as Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

General Shalikashvili is currently serving on the board of directors of The Boeing Company.. He has been appointed to serve on the board's Audit and Finance Committee.


You want Clark? You're welcome to him.

[Clark Can WIN]

82. Uh....... thanks so much for the Shalikashvili history lesson

I think that was the longest post with absolutely no discernable point I have yet read on DU. Are we supposed to hate Shalikashvili because he was against communism? You know what country this is don't you? Are we to fear him because he and Powell's ships passed occasionally through the same harbors? What?

Your whole Clark bashing post was void of anything relevant about Clark.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

86. Welcome to the World of the Clark Bashers

Your whole Clark bashing post was void of anything relevant about Clark.

Get this. One guy is so desperate in his desire to bash Clark that he's trying to hold the GUESS of his son from almost two months ago against the General.

It's an incredibly pathetic position to take. But a highly amusing one.

DTH

[TennesseeWalker]

17. I don't get that feeling from him.

He blasted Tom Delay the other day, and he seems extremely rational. I think military men in general are more responsible with the use of force. Remember, it was IKE who warned of the dangers of the military industrial complex.

I'd like to know more about Clark, obviously. I think he'll siphon off a lot of Kerry and Lieberman voters, and some of the more moderate Dean supporters. The hard core left probably won't be very enthusiastic with a Clark nominee, and might even bring Ralph Nader into play.

[Julien Sorel]

19. Since Clark is more liberal than Dean by a fair bit,

one has to wonder why the hardcore left would be so hostile to him, when many of them like Dean. Because what you're saying is correct, but it makes no sense, assuming the hardcore left is acting rationally.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

24. Big Assumption, Sadly

assuming the hardcore left is acting rationally

There is a kneejerk antipathy among the hardcore left toward anything smacking of the military, in my view. This is a shame, since Clark is more progressive on the issue of the use of force than the majority of the current field.

DTH

[Media_Lies_Daily]

69. Maybe the hardcore left and other Moderate Democrats like myself insist...

...on doing the proper research on a candidate before accepting one just for what he says in public. Bush said quite a few things before the 2000 "election", but we now know he just said those things to get elected and carry out the rightwing agenda.

Read one of my other posts in this thread about the general that was his biggest sponsor in the Army.

[Julien Sorel]

81. I read your post about Shalikashvili.

It reinforced my belief that you have serious issues. You basically pointed out that he was from eastern Europe, and implied that that was somehow sinister in and of itself. He was a Cold warrior until the Cold war ended? Wow -- a general in the Army was a Cold warrior during the Cold war. How radical! You then post his resume, as if that is also somehow incriminating. What does any of this innocuous mass of information have to do with Clark, by the way? All my superiors, and all my peers except one, are die-hard Republicans. I must be a plant! I work for Rove and the Republicans! My ancestors are from Africa! I don't know what that means, but it must be sinister!

The conspiracy theory board is really past due here.

[Julien Sorel]

18. DU, and I'm serious about this, needs to get a forum together

just for conspiracy theories. It would make the rest of the fora so much more enjoyable.

By the way, it has already been authoritatively decided that Clark is a tool of the Illuminati, and when his moon is in the seventh quadrant of Venus, it will begin the third stage of the Apocalypse. But don't feel bad -- 'working with the GOP' was the runner-up choice in that discussion.

[TheBigGuy]

21. I agree with that......

I get tired of wading around the Black Box Voting threads and the LIHOP stuff and the other conspiracy stuff....its sort of like crackpot central at DU somtimes, particularly on GD.

[phegger]

61. LIHOP? Que es LIHOP?

I obviously need to keep up more, conspiracy-wise.


-ph B-)

[absolutezero]

66. let it happen on purpose

refering to whistleass and 911

[conservdem]

54. Good post.

"DU, and I'm serious about this, needs to get a forum together
just for conspiracy theories. It would make the rest of the fora so much more enjoyable."

Agreed.

on edit: But then we may miss out on some good laughs from posts like No. 50.

[Kahuna]

32. Has Clark given any indication at all that he wants to splinter the..

Democratic party? I could name a couple of other candidate who recently made sweeping statements that were very unkind to Democrats of trying to splinter the party. They gave been snipping about the Iraq war. You may have heard of them. Lieberman and Dean. :eyes:

[Pepperbelly]

50. exactly! and what if he's an ALIEN bent on delivering the earth to ...

intersteller conquerors!

:wow:

[Media_Lies_Daily]

70. You sound just like a typical GOP rightwinger...belittle anything that...

...you feel is not in your candidate's best interest.

Are you sure you're in the correct forum?

[Julien Sorel]

74. Let me see...

He has almost 7,000 posts, and is quite intelligent and generally urbane. You, on the other hand, just registered today and the only thing you've done is advance nutjob conspiracy theories. Are you sure you're on the 'right' forum?

Since you like conspiracy theories, by the way, there was one advanced here not too long ago that said there are folks who are paid to go out and make politically-oriented posts on message boards. At the time, I thought it was a little far-fetched, but I'm beginning to see there might be something to it.

[dfong63]

20. i doubt it

can Clark beat Bush?

i doubt it - Clark is afraid of the word "democrat". that's not a good sign for a man who apparently hopes to lead the democrats to victory.

Clark has no experience in electoral politics. he'd be going up against the heavyweight champion fundraiser and media manipulator of all time. i for one am not ready to bet everything on a johnny-come-lately who can't even give a straight answer to whether the's in the race or not. Clark is no more qualified to be president than Arnie Schwarzenegger is to be governor.

labor day has come and gone, the day which many Clark supporters and tea-leaf-readers had touted as "the day" when Clark would announce. Clark, either sh*t or get off the pot.

[TheBigGuy]

22. Yeah, I thought we know by September.

So when is the announcement?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

26. Hopefully Any Day Now

I am really hoping for tomorrow, but it can't be later than this weekend, IMO, or else you run into charges of 9/11 opportunism/insensitivity.

DTH

[Pepperbelly]

51. September ...

has barely started.

Labor Day was no good for it.

Today was Kerry's day. Why whiz on the man's parade?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

25. That Is an Incredibly Ignorant Statement

Clark is no more qualified to be president than Arnie Schwarzenegger is to be governor.

Thank you for discrediting yourself, yet again.

DTH

[edward]

23. No.

Gore, the vice-president did not beat Bush.(I mean in reality, not fantasy.)
Clark is not even close to representing the Democratic Party.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

27. Oh Yeah?

Clark is not even close to representing the Democratic Party.

Please tell us what you know about Clark.

What's that? Nothing at all? What a surprise.

:eyes:

DTH

[edward]

30. Worst post at DU today.

Nice insult. No reply.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

33. Bring It On

You made the bare-assed, ludicrous assertion that Clark does not even closely represent the Democratic party. So I am actually giving you the benefit of the doubt, by assuming you are ignorant about Clark, because to say otherwise when in command of the facts would be quite frankly dishonest, IMO.

So please, elucidate on your bare-assed, ludicrous assertion. I am waiting with breathed anticipation.

DTH

[dfong63]

34. how can he represent the dem party when he's afraid of the word,

"democrat"?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

36. Until He Declares

His affiliation is no one's business (even though he has voted Democratic in the Arkansas elections where you don't declare your affiliation, and has supported Democrats during his long career).

I am quite confident that your refrain will be disposed of neatly if and when he declares, and that no one will doubt his affiliation. Additionally, he has also said that his affiliation should be obvious to anyone with half-a-brain (OK, so the "half-a-brain" bit was me editorializing, but his tone conveyed exactly that level of "duh").

DTH

[dfong63]

77. no one's business?

if his affiliation is "no one's business", then in my opinion he has "no business" seeking the dem nomination.

Additionally, he has also said that his affiliation should be obvious to anyone with half-a-brain (OK, so the "half-a-brain" bit was me editorializing, but his tone conveyed exactly that level of "duh").

gee, that sounds an awful lot like George Bush Sr's "read my lips". no thanks. does the man have some kind of allergy to straight talking? the ex-general may never have been a politician, but he seems to have adopted one of the worst traits of pols. is the rest of his platform going to be a "you-figure-it-out" affair too? yeah, that's a great strategy for winning the election: make people guess as to your true beliefs.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

87. That's Certainly Your Opinion

As you've made very clear, again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again...

if his affiliation is "no one's business", then in my opinion he has "no business" seeking the dem nomination.

If he decides not to run, then what gives you or anyone the right to demand anything from him?

If he decides to run, it is certainly incumbent upon him to demonstrate that his positions are in line with the Democratic Party. Of course, anyone who cared enough to spend a little less time posting empty bashes on DU and a little more time actually learning about his positions and history would already know the answer to this.

But apparently ignorance is bliss for some people.

yeah, that's a great strategy for winning the election: make people guess as to your true beliefs.

Patience, grasshopper. If he runs, no one will have to guess. It's a pity your so unwilling to keep an open mind about a great man. It's quite telling, really.

DTH

[kaflinn]

90. Correct...no one's business

I realize that a certain amount of animosity on this board, regarding General Clark, is a reaction to some of his supporters (no offense intended to them), but don't project that on to Clark.

As yet, he's not a candidate and thus enjoys the same right to privacy as anyone of us. He's made it clear on any number of occaisions that he's '...being drawn into this..." by those who have asked him to run. It may seem like a no-brainer decision to many of us, but it's a helluva lot more personal for him and Mrs. Clark. Give them a break, and let them make the decision when they are ready.

If you want a non-draftClark view of this, go here and read
http://www.deadmessengers.com series on Clark.

[Pepperbelly]

52. Did I miss the memo that put you in charge?

Dang!

I ALWAYS miss the important ones.

But, since I did, perhaps it will be the Democratic voters who decide who will lead the party rather than you, all by your lonesome.
I mean ... heck, I think even I get to vote.

[WilliamPitt]

28. Yes

[Kahuna]

35. Yeaaaaaaaaaaa, Boo!

three cheers for Will Pitt!

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

<sniff> I'm so proud of that boy. <sniff>

:7

[poskonig]

29. Dean and Clark will beat bush.

:toast:

[RaRa]

31. Not if he doesn't

run! Geeze, when's he going to announce? (one way or another?) The suspense is really getting to me.

[Mz Pip]

39. It's still early

2/3 of Dems can't even name one of the Dem candidates. Shows how plugged in most Americans are at this point. If they can't name a candidate I would definitely put them in the "undecided" column. So we have Dean who has 30% of the 1/3 who are paying attention, Kerry at about 20% of that same third. Those numbers don't look quite so dominating if 2/3 of the Dems aren't paying attention.


I don't think Clark will have any trouble making up for lost time.
MzPip
:dem:

[DoveTurnedHawk]

41. Especially If He Gets Bill-n-Hill's Rolodex! (eom)

DTH

[Clark Can WIN]

37. Like a pinata full of Godiva chocolates

At a tupperware party. Clark will carry all the regular Dem states and sweep vast numbers of tweenie and Rethuglican states as well. It'll be a positively embarrassing slaughter for the "boy".

And the debates, I'm going to tape those for when I'm having a bad day to cheer me up.

[G_j]

38. most of the present candidates could

Bush can be beaten folks.

[uptohere]

40. in a word, no

never been elected to anything and can't even decide if hes a dem or not.

The guy wants a subordenant role (like he's always had).

[DoveTurnedHawk]

42. For the Millionth Time

never been elected to anything

So? Lots of Presidents haven't been career politicians. Many would count this as a plus.

and can't even decide if hes a dem or not

This is such a tired canard. He's obviously a Dem, and he obviously decided that long, long ago. He just isn't declaring it to the world, since he's not even running yet. Until he runs, it's no one's business.

Why is that so hard for Clark-haters to understand?

DTH

[uptohere]

60. is it just me or can noone else see the parallel to C.Powell ?

the guy obviously has Colin envy. But being a competetive guy who won't forget that he was never chairman of the joint chiefs (and I believe that the nato lead works for the joint chiefs when that person is American), he has decided to try and one up old Colin and is using this opportunity to get the VP spot.

I don't hate Clarke. I think he could have a role in a Democratic administration. Sec State is the obvious role. Sec Def after that.

Prez ? No. The significance of never having run for office is the test of endurance of infuriating BS. Generals don't tolerate this well. Neither fo physicians which explains Dr Dean's public speaking issues (in part).

VP ? No. I think you have to have someone who has delivered votes in the past and can be expected to do so again. That was the biggest fault of Lieberman's choice. He didn't bring anything that wasn't already pretty much in the bag.

[Julien Sorel]

76. He 'obviously has Colin envy.'

Obvious to whom? You? It isn't obvious to me -- or to the millions of other people who support him. On what do you base this 'obviousness?' Surely, since it's so 'obvious,' you 'obviously' have evidence to prove this, don't you? Because there must be tons of it around for it to be so 'obvious.' Or are you 'obviously' talking out of the wrong end?

Prez ? No. The significance of never having run for office is the test of endurance of infuriating BS. Generals don't tolerate this well.

Eight of the 43 presidents this country has had were generals. That would be close to 20%. I guess they found a way to tolerate it.

So again, based on what evidence do you make this claim? Or is this more message board gas-passing?

I don't hate Clarke.

Who cares if you hate Clark or not? You 'obviously' hate the idea of taking the time to make reasoned posts more than any hatred you have for a candidate.

[Mz Pip]

43. Supreme Nato Commander

yeah, that's real subordinate. :crazy:

MzPip
:dem:

[retyred]

48. never been elected ?

Then it should be a shoe in, bush wasn't elected either!


Retyred IN FLA.
“Good Night Paul, Wherever You Are”

[SOS]

46. Yes

55%-45% or better.

[Donna Zen]

55. Why the answer is yes...

Clark can carry all of Gore's states and bring you 3-5 red states. bushco has been ignoring the farm states. Also, have you listened to Hegel and Lugar lately? These are internationalist repubs who are very unhappy witht he current junta. How much effort would they put into going around promoting bush over their friend Wesley. Also, I've noticed that Clark has been spending plenty of time in TN lately...recon maybe. Taking it into enemy territory would make bush fight for his base.

Which brings us to why Clark is wise to refrain from declaring. Part of this movement is to broaden the base, making them feel comfortable within our party without dumbing down any of our liberal policies. Second, why get labeled when you can control and define the center. Clark usually works in a plug about how he is in the center with most other Americans. (Now go and read his positions....lift travel sanctions to Cuba...pro choice...gays in the military...)

Now I don't know General Clark, but I do understand the honor code. If you think Clark after living that code would sacrifice his honor for bushco...then you are not paying attention.

[waggawagga]

56. Clark Won't Know Until He Jumps Into the Primaries

And I'm really starting not to like him because he's being a wuss. This isn't Hamlet-like indecision. Clark wants to know what his chances will be before he jumps into the race. And guess what? It's not just not like that. He has to dive in and see what happens. Comparing Clark to Dean is kind of funny at this point because whether you like him or not Dean is running a "If I build it they will come" campaign. I have more respect for Lieberman and Kucinich at this point (at least they get this part). If Clark jumps in during the next two weeks no harm done. But skip the "But will they really love me" insecure actress crap.

[Pepperbelly]

57. If he decides not to run ...

what you or anyone else thinks won't matter much to him. If he does decide to run, it will be within the next two weeks. Even then, he will be announcing two weeks or so earlier in 03 than BC did in 91.

on edit: btw, personally, I have far more respect for the candidate that plans carefully than one who runs willy-nilly without plan. Some of the candidates seem to be doing jus that.

[southern democrat]

59. My fellow Democrats;

I'm just sitting here waiting at the station for THE CLARK EXPRESS.Clark is a democrat. It's not time to fluant it yet.But when THE CLARK EXPRESS comes through we will all know and we all be invited to get on board.Myself and many, many,others will jump on board and help General Wesley K.Clark run George Bush's sorry ass out of The White House!NUFF SAID!

[waggawagga]

65. I Have No Problem With His Deciding

It's the worried debutante schtick which is getting old.

[Julien Sorel]

58. Dean had no choice but to run his campaign the way he did.

He didn't have Clark's name recognition, credibility, or cachet, so he had to build it. Dean has run a smart campaign thus far, but a lot of what he's being credited for is really stuff he simply had no choice but to do. As a nobody governor from a small state, for example, opposing the war was the smart thing for him to do -- if he supported it, he'd just be another 'me too' candidate, and that wouldn't have gotten him anywhere. So he took a non-risk, and expressed opposition to a war that many felt, but also knew that opposing the war would be their political death sentence if, as everyone believed at one point, Saddam actually had WMD. What did Dean risk? Opposition to the war put him on the map; if the war had gone differently, he'd have been where he started: a nobody. So it was a riskless decision for him, unlike, say, Kerry, who had a lot to lose.

A whole lot of things have gone right for Dean so far, and he's played the cards he had pretty well, but I'm not going to give him more credit than he deserves.

[Pastiche423]

67. Name recognition?

Clark?

I have been following politics for almost four decades. Clark's name only came before my eyes two months ago.

The average USian on the street has never heard of him.

Dean is (was)not the nobody, Clark is.

[JohnKleeb]

79. To be honest I hadnt heard of either of them

BTW DK is pretty much a no name but my dad and :) a Kucinich supporter remembered him. Clark isnt a household name thats for sure like Eisenhower.

[Julien Sorel]

83. Nope, but he has recognition

from his stint on CNN. Moreover, being former SACEUR, plus his academic achievements, are things nobody else has. As soon as you point out he is a retired 4 star, and ran the Bosnia campaign, you can see the credibility it builds with people (I'm speaking from experience here, in explaining to people who Clark is). Other folks are just politicians, but for whatever reason, Clark's military credentials carry weight that being a former governor, or a Congressperson, do not. He doesn't have to have Eisenhower's name recognition or fame -- he's ultimately his own person, with his own set of strengths and weaknesses.

[Pastiche423]

84. How many

"average" USians watch CNN? I don't and I am a political junkie.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the age of worshipping brass ended after WWII.

Former governors and Congresspeople have a history of making decisions. They have a history that can be examined.

Clark does not.

Hell, he can't even make the decision of party affliation.

[Lefty48197]

64. Clark will squash him like a bug

I like Bill Richardson as the VP. Gephardt or Graham might help too.
Either way, we're firing Bush next year, just like we did to his elitist Daddy. Goodbye Bush! Again.

[angee_is_mad]

71. He has to run first!!

[Pastiche423]

72. Nah

He has to say he is a Democrat 1st!

[angee_is_mad]

73. you are right!

[ButterflyBlood]

75. A general vs. an illiterate, drunken frat boy AWOL slob?

no contest

[dfong63]

78. "a few extra weeks"

``I don't know if he will run but he'll make an announcement either way (my guess is at the very latest labor day). I understand that the wait might be frustrating for people in the DraftClark movement and the Democratic party - but if he runs, I assume that those who think he is a good candidate now will probably not hold it against him just because he waited a few extra weeks.''

this quote from Wes Clark Jr, in the thread wes clark jr - in case you didn't see it, dated july 10, 2003, is a clear attempt to string people along for "a few extra weeks". well, it's been more than a few extra weeks. labor day has come and gone. Clark, either sh*t or get off the damn pot.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

88. Yawn

Last I checked, a son does not typically have authority over the father.

DTH

[Adjoran]

80. Bush is beatable

The question is "who has the BEST chance of doing it?"

First of all, Clark is clearly a Democrat.

Second, he must decide very soon. Time is running out to raise money. Gore or HRC have the juice to get in late and pull the bucks necessary (you need much more than the $$ to win the primaries; Bush is sitting on a bundle that Rove will use to bycth-slap our nominee from March until July, and that must be countered). It is still possible to do it if he could get at least tacit backing from one of them, but even that can't stop the clock from ticking.

Third, before committing to a candidate, most of us want to know where he stands on a broad range of issues. No blind dates for President!

I'm open to Clark's message, and waiting to hear it.

[Merlin]

89. He's running for VP, not POTUS.

Clark knows he's a newcomer on the political scene. He's not Ike, who was a household name when he announced in '52. Americans are not likely to open their arms to a guy who waltzes in at the last minute and presents himself as the answer to their prayers.

Clark is a smart guy and he knows that. I am virtually certain he will run. Of course he will say he's running for the top spot. But in reality, he understands he is a phenomenal, powerful, clinching candidate for VP and will balance virtually any of the Dem candidates. Further, he will be the top choice of virtually all of them.

The reason he's holding back is so he doesn't have to campaign against the others and risk alienating them.

Clark is a fantastic gift. He will be on the ticket. And our ticket will win! Bank on it.

[CoffeePlease1947]

91. "He's not Ike, who was a household name when he announced in '52."

As opposed to the other 9 nine candidates that can't be named by 2/3 of Democrats?

Come'on. When did you ever know a General to go for second place?

Mike