Open Letter to All Obnoxious Dean and Kerry Supporters

[WilliamPitt]

I just witnessed the following exchange on a thread dedicated to one of these two candidates:

---

Post Title: "Where are Dean's medals?"

No text in post.

Reply Title: "Where are Kerry's supporters?"

No text in post.

Reply Title: "Lurking - ready to pounce"

No text in post.

Reply Title: "Tapping foot.....waiting....."

Text in post: "And frightened to death!"

Reply Title: "Oh, BTW -"

Text in post: "are you old enough to vote?"

---

Am I an ass for publicizing this? Maybe. I posted no names nor the source of this, but savvy DUers can probably find it pretty easily. I will risk being labeled an ass, because this is important.

Let me explain something about DemocraticUnderground.com. I have written three books. I would have written no books without DU, without the prople here, without the wisdom and data to be found here. This says absolutely nothing special about me, but should tell you everything you need to know about the resource that is this place. I was a paralegal, and then a schoolteacher. I am nothing special. Whatever ability I do have, and the spirit I found here, motivated me to channel the essence of this place into books, into wider-world information that people need to know.

That is why I get nuts when I see this place tear itself apart, why I post every once in a while these tirade threads. Usually, I feel pretty stupid about it afterwards. Not this time. Not this time, because I have lost my ability to believe that the General Discussion forum is a place for data, discussion and debate. It has become a schoolyard pissing match. It has made politics more painful, if you can believe it. It has become a waste of time.

Read that exchange above again. That is a pure crystallization of exactly what has been going on here between a bunch of Dean supporters, Kerry supporters, and to a lesser extent Clark supporters. Some of these people are disrupters, obviously, but certainly not most. Most are you, either rising to the bait or baiting on your own. Either way, this exchange above is DU's General Discussion forum right now. If you doubt it, you have not been paying attention.

Here's the news: Dean or Kerry is going to get the nomination, with an outsider chance to Clark that (I think) gets better the more I think about it. Regardless, one of these guys is going to be the Man. Into that person will be poured, literally, all our hopes and all our sweat and all our prayers and the last, best home we've got to stop the bleeding that is killing this country.

We are going to have to work together. You are making that, every day, more of an impossibility, and that is a national suicide ride you are taking me personally along on.

I think people being passionate about candidates is a great good thing...actually, I think it is a mortal requirement considering what is at stake.

But this bullshit has got to stop.

Do something. Do anything.

Make this stop.

[goobergunch]

1. Hear, hear

Remember the 4-sentence rule. It was overly restrictive IMHO, but the quality of discussion here means that IMHO it may be necessary for candidate threads at least.

[MarkTwain]

87. Hear, Hear x2

Alhtough a member since well near its inception, it's probably been close to a year since I've posted on this board although I do read it a handful of times throughout each day, espcially LBN. GD has become a pitiful mess of impudent rants, vanity posts, and meaningless meanderings. It's mostly a waste of time.

Overall, my reason for staying away from the keyboard as it pertains to DU is precisely the behaviour which has engulfed this forum in the last six months of "the campaign."

However, during the recent trial period which imposed some posting requirements for GD, I was elated. I thought - finally - the herders are, at least, trying to corral some of the cats. But alas, nothing came of it. The frothing felines won and are still pissing everywhere except the cat box.

The nastiness, the bitterness, the childishness, and the petulance of far too many members of this board in their posting practices makes one want to just turn away and say "not worth my time." At the beginning, this was a rather civil, although still highly impassioned, place. Now, we see in far too many posts representative of the actions of a freeper - albeit one with a small "f."

I mean just look at the rest of this thread; it proves its own point far more dramatically than could even the consistently eloquent words of Mr. Pitt. You see precisely the same conduct in this thread which is defined and challenged in Will's thesis above. Intra-mural squabbling, nit-picking, and harrassment without even indirectly replying to William.

Damn. It's a shame.

(And, no. Flame away all you want, but dont' expect further response from me. I will not be pulled into the game except to call this one whistle on the play.)

[ronnykmarshall]

102. Hear, Hear x3

One of the things that keeps me on fence is the uglness from the various supporters.

[GregW]

2. How can it stop ...

When most of the agitprop we see here (IMO) is squirted by GOP infiltrators and moles. I mean, why bother fighting your enemy when you can make them fight each other?

[WilliamPitt]

4. Wrong

The names I see participating in this crap are regulars, known DUers all. Either they have dedicated massive time to develop their cover, or it is us who is making the problem.

Occam's Razor.

[liberalnurse]

10. Thats how I see it too.

You are so insightful.....

[Beetwasher]

16. Will, it's to be expected and can't/won't go away

Read up on some group psychology and motiviational dynamics. Fascinating stuff, really. Any group/community is bound to have this sort infighting/internal schism dynamic, so it's pointless to try to stop it. Don't let it get to you, realize it's all part of being human.

[KaraokeKarlton]

34. It's actually being perpetuated by mostly one person

who I firmly believe has no other goal here than to disrupt discussions AND the peace. Here's how it works...this individual posts almost entirely flamebait. It is obvious that their goal isn't to have debate or civil discourse, but to incite supporters of one of these two candidates. The supporters of that candidate being attacked do their best to ignore it, and then someone gets to the point where they're sick of it, so they start gratuitously bashing the other candidate out of sheer frustration. Someone who supports that other candidate get's all bent out of whack and starts gratuitous attacks on the other supporter's candidate...and it continues to build until the whole place consists of angry Dean and Kerry supporters defacating all over the Politics and Campaigns section. Sometimes this one individual also tries to pull Kucinich supporters and Clark supporters into the mix as well. To be perfectly honest with you, until the admins finally figure out this individual IS essentially nothing more than an intentional disruptor and gives their arse the boot...it's only going to get worse. Anytime that individual is not around for awhile, things calm down and everyone gets along pretty well...but the second they show up...all hell breaks loose.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[molly]

44. Do you think removal proves how absolutely abnoxious

this post was?

[molly]

45. Please try to be exact and compact

[Forkboy]

69. please try to be a pleasant human

:eyes:

[liberalnurse]

7. I believe that is where most of the instigators originate.

There are some real talented disruptors from the Dark Side....I have to admit, there are some regular posters who I get that flame feeling from and question their true intent. The repeated covert method of their approach reeks of professionalism that trigger party splitting behavior. Sincerity is never a glow in their post. Road rage is how I describe it.

I think for me, I'm going to have to learn how to detatch from the bait. It is not easy.....I love DU too! The rules have loopholes where these pro's know just how to navigate.

[LoneStarLiberal]

3. Recall Civility, Not Davis

I'm fairly new around here and for a while it was all clicking along fine. Then I started getting interested in some of the Clark threads because I'm interested in the candidate. Some of the stuff that goes on in these threads is not what I would call a civil discussion or civil disagreement.

Will's right. Passion is great, passion about your politics and your belief in a candidate is what we need. But there's some serious acrimony going on out there right now.

[AWD]

5. Excellent post

Once more, brilliant writing from Mr. Pitt.

[Cocoa]

6. don't rule out Gephardt

it's still early, 2/3 of voters can't name a single dem candidate.

[soleft]

8. I would like to see you post this exchange

You support Kerry

I know Khephra is a Dean man

You guys are friends

I would like to see a conversation between you two as a model for discourse.

[Postman]

9. Just ignore it Mr. Pitt...

You know who are the intelligent posters are. The more popular something becomes the less pure it becomes, I think. Don't abandon a great forum for the exchange of ideals based on a few idiot posts. Its part of "democracy" to have to put up with a few bumps in the road.

You are correct, our nominee will be one of three you mention and whomever it may be, I will support to the fullest. I've posted before that I couldn't vote for Kerry because of his Iraq vote. That has changed. I cannot let something like that stand in the way of allowing the country to be destroyed by these neo-fascsists. I know that's a strong word but I feel we are headed down that long lonesome road if this isn't put to a stop, and fast.

[Plaid Adder]

14. With a forum this size, you have to read selectively.

Basically I ignore any thread that seems to me like an obvious puff or an obvious slam for/on any particular candidate. Except, of course, for matcom's endorsement, which I hope Dean is proud to have!

There's no way to stop idiots from being idiots, or partisans from being partisans. Only thing you can do about a flame war is refuse to add fuel and hope it dies from lack of oxygen.

jeez, with the time I waste on DU already, I woudl get fired if I also wasted time reading the Green threads, the Dean/Kerry threads, and the Clark is God/Clark is Satan threads (wtf did all of THEM come from all of a sudden?).

Pick your battles,

The Plaid Adder

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

71. Will you support Ham Sandwich?

[Kathy in Cambridge]

11. A very well-written expression of what many veteran DUers are feeling

Thanks, Will. I have been avoiding these threads but their sheer number is making it harder and harder. Certainly, as Greg says, there are certain infiltrators that are doing their jobs (divide and conquer) but I really hate to see us become so polarized. I would like information about the candidates, not conjecture.

[imhotep]

12. Why dont you let the Mods

do their jobs instead of appointing yourself dictator?

[liberalnurse]

15. Hey, we are processing here.....

Its a family meeting.....no dictators, no facilitators, just processing ....its healthy.....

[kodi]

13. past time to re-aim those rifles in the circular firing squad outward

we, on the left have more in common than in contestation.

it's time to make that clear to those who have lost sight of our basic objectives.

i am seeing on this site a frightening, heart-sickening lack of basic intellectual maturity which is being compounded by emotionalism.

if we continue to be divided, we will be conquered, again.

[PurityOfEssence]

17. The curse of the downtrodden

Those who have seen their world taken away from them by jaw-dropping maneuvers and thuggery get very tender and too personally identified with their "guy/gal", hence, to call their choice into question is a personal attack. It's the human nature of the marginalized: nobody's ever suffered like I have so it's my turn and you're just a philistine.

Think of stupid bar fights over sports teams; it's the same thing.

Surely it will ebb and flow, but to a great degree, you're fighting against human nature. Just being a progressive with ethical affiliations doesn't mean one ISN'T A DICK (or dickette). Age doesn't necessarily bring maturity or even adulthood.

There are certain traits about the various camps, and they often mirror the candidates themselves. There are many members of those two groups who are monotonic and infuriating, but you forgot the Clark-barkers; I'd say they trump even the worst of the Deanie-weinies. The Deanies are experiencing the triumph of the underdog, and historically that usually brings a cocksuredness and tyranny all of its own. Remember the lesson of the Massachusetts Bay Colony: they were the persecuted who created a greater intolerance than what they escaped. That caused Roger Williams to leave and create the first home of true religious freedom...well, at least until they kicked the Quakers out...

The time is still upon us to learn and attempt to accurately assess who has the best policies (not just for ourselves, but for the whole world) and who is most electable. The dynamic of shrill people who have to win as some kind of referendum on their very being is tiresome and counterproductive. "I'm not a loser, I'm not, I'm NOT! Look, my guy's better, he is, YOU'RE the loser. Aren't you humiliated yet?"

Then you have the saintly, who can only vote for those who are pristine to the point of ineffectuality. Let's not forget the tiresome "adults" who constantly remind us how embarrassing anyone to the left of center-right is and how it will destroy our cherished party to actually behave like ourselves, they bug me more than I can say. I'd be bugged by them even if their premise wasn't completely wrong.

[Donna Zen]

18. We lost a good one

last night. This was a substantive poster who never rose to the bait, although the baiter found some perverted delight in continuing ad nauseam. I wrote to the person who left and asked them to please stay, because their sanity was appreciated. Funny, but their words echoed yours: I don't have time for that playground.

Sad...oh yes; but sadder still to lose control over a tool that has just recently begun to be effective. Listen to the evening news, they mention the internet campaigns every night. That's you. If you don't think that many lurkers from the offices in DC are watching threads here, you haven't been paying attention.

Or maybe this is your way of flipping off the establishment. Well, that may measure up as less than effective politics.

So to the bent minds who believe that spewing underdone crap and rumour on this forum somehow makes you braver, smarter, more praise worthy, you may only find you have only burned down your own house.

[shanti]

55. geez, that's what the IGNORE function is for

not wimping out!

[ShaneGR]

19. I freaked out about the same thing the other day

And posted about how happy I will be when the Democratic Nominee is decided after Super Tuesday. My hope is that 98% of people will stand behind whoever that candidate is because we need to take Bush out. I think within a few weeks of Super Tuesday this will take hold amongst the people on this board.

BTW, as much as I wish Edwards would catch on, I think it comes down to Dean, Kerry, or Clark.

[DinahMoeHum]

20. Amen, brother!! When I see one of those bash threads. . .

I tune out. I'd be wasting my time getting involved there.

:kick:

[Clete]

21. I try to stay out of the "food fight" threads, but even find

myself drawn in at times. I do find them counterproductive and to tell the truth not very informative. At my age I should know better.

[MODemocrat]

98. Turn on the Jerry Springer show for a food fight

Surely one can disagree without being disagreeable; but actually, I don't see all that much desention on this board.

[alcuno]

22. And I am tired of the "Post Police"

Those people who make it their business to comment on what and how other people are responding. Of course people are going to work together in the end, but it's 4 months until the first primary and 15 months before the general election. Lighten up.

[diamondsoul]

27. Man, is everyone that detatched around here?

THIS thread isn't about the primaries or the election. It's a guy who sees people he cares about going at each other over total strangers. It's about a guy who sees something important to him going to hell in a handbasket and saying so.

Cripes, I get so tired of seeing good people get slammed for being GOOD PEOPLE! And then everyone wonders "What the hell is wrong with us?"! Gee, ya think maybe the GOOD PEOPLE get fed up with being treated like they are the problem?

He CARES, ok? That's enough of a reason to respect him in my book.

[WilliamPitt]

31. There's no "Of course" about it.

I will bet you $10, right here and now, that if this kind of crap continues indefinitely, we will have bad and irreconcilable differences right when a big come-together is required.

[alcuno]

36. I'll take that bet.

I have negotiated many a union contract and vigorous debate (although immature may apply here) is part of the process. If people don't come together in the end, we don't deserve to win.

[stevedeshazer]

23. Geez,

I love this place, but I hate what it is becoming.

There are some very well thought out threads that get started here, and two minutes later you may be lucky to find them stuck on the bottom with little or no response. But post about Arnold's penis or insult someone's candidate, and it's "flame on."

Titillation, infighting and various sophomoric crap have really dropped the level of discourse here. Hell, I'm no high-falutin' intellectual, but can't we all discuss real issues in a rational way sometimes? A lot of this belongs in the lounge, which I now avoid most of the time.

I'll surely be flamed, but when Skinner et al tested some temporary guidelines in this forum, the results were positive. Things were way better, at least for a while.

My 2 cents.

[nostamj]

24. don't read Dean threads, don't read Kerry threads

don't read Coulter threads (anymore)

I like what I hear from Dean and Kerry

coulter is blondbland evil.

anybody but bush. period.

rove masturbates to threads where dems tear each other apart. he knows the pukes will get their anthrax threatened asses in line.

dem dissent is a viagra/ecstacy enema to him...

please, don't 'bring it on'

[molly]

25. As the "guilty party" in a couple of your examples

you know that I was an avid supporter of DU.

You cannot blame those of us who FIGHT BACK! Go back thru the threads that were posted while you were on your book tour. Go thru the numerous LBN threads posted daily detailing every potty break Dean took. To make it simple - it was disgusting - to most of us.

Is it OK to say you knew what you were doing, but you did it anyway? The Deanies made is obvious, from the beginning, that it was their way or the hiway. They have hijacked DU and I am sick of it.

You obviously have no respect for me. So - GOODBYE to you too!

[Forkboy]

30. so let me see if I understand

the behaviour of the Deanies pissed you off,and turned you off to Dean....so you want to act just like them? :crazy:

If their behaviour turned you off of Dean how do you think your behaviour will help Kerry?

[acerbic]

63. I don't think you quite understood, read again...

the behaviour of the Deanies pissed you off,and turned you off to Dean....so you want to act just like them?

Just like "Nicholas_J", "molly" is saying that she got pissed about Dean supporters posting positive articles about their own candidate and started attacking which is not at all the same as when Dean supporters react to those attacks.

[WilliamPitt]

32. Thank you for proving my point

Attack what you disagree with. Way to be.

[CMT]

59. Don't agree

"The Deanies have hijaked DU"... that is silly. Certainly there have been lots of Dean posts from excited and enthused supporters but it never came to a point where Dean supporters were "in control" of this board. It goes in cylces. Remember a few weeks ago all the pro Clark posts? and there have been plenty of positive Kerry posts as well. There are disruptors on all sides--not just the Dean's.

[molly]

60. You musta been on vacation

OR refuse to see the truth.

[Forkboy]

61. You're giving Nic a run for his money

in the obtuse dept.

[CMT]

64. I refuse to see your truth

I hope you get over this ax your are grinding. It is not helping Kerry, who is a very fine man--just not my candidate.

[molly]

65. I will never "get over it"

I do not have 1 forgiving bone in this body and the Deanies started it.

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[never cry wolf]

72. I LOVE THIS CANDIDATE

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=227780

[sfecap]

81. I am so glad you have that Kerry avatar.

I just keeps reinforcing the negativity.

You need help.

[Andromeda]

68. Molly,

you are being defensive and acting in the same way you are accusing others of.

[diamondsoul]

26. Hang in there, Will.

You, me all the other reasonable, dedicated people on DU just have to keep plugging away at the bitterness for a while.

I've been watching it all, and even been drawn in once or twice myself. Then I went back and read a couple of replies I'd made. I didn't like what I saw. I got to thinking it's pretty damned hypocritical to be supporting a candidate whose foundational platform is peace and to respond to people on a message-board with contempt and anger. Lovely way to promote peace, right?</sarcasm>

People are PISSED. Unfortunately some of us are better at channeling that than others. Some people never learn how. It reminds me of a friend of mine. His response was hide from the propaganda. Just quit listening, reading, talking about it, everything. Until he called me the other night. We hadn't talked in a while so he asked what I'd been up to. My response was "Politics, if you can believe that!". I think he nearly fell off his chair. We talked for a good 45 minutes, and mostly because he found somebody who understood what he was seeing.

Anyway, by the time we hung up, I knew within a week or two he's going to be fully informed and pissed off, worse than what he is now. Not long after that, he'll choose a candidate and it probably won't be Kucinich. We just might have a few disagreements over it, and that's fine. We'll survive that, but in the meanwhile me and my candidate woke up another disinterested voter.

DU is like that. We're getting informed, and we're all pissed. We all want the situation fixed and we want it done OUR way. So we've got pissing matches going on all over. I really think it's going to be ok, though, even while it stinks to be watching it. I think DU will survive this for the most part, and I think we'll get rid of Bushco, too. Partly because we're all so passionate and determined to get people to vote.

[stickdog]

28. I agree.

I resolve not to let any of my personal candidate discussions devolve into meaningless zingers and "my candidate can beat up your candidate" drivel.

Let there be adult discussion on DU, and let it begin with me.

[AWD]

29. Hey!

Let there be adult discussion on DU, and let it begin with me.

Are you saying you wanna talk dirty to us???

Cool!

Sorry...just trying to lighten it up a bit!

[stickdog]

35. The DU Adult lounge?

For the truly liberal minded ...

[bpilgrim]

33. thats why we need a value filter...

everyone can rate the post then you can choose to view just the post with high content scores on the thread.

it would be cool if we could categorize them as well - funny, insightful, important, etc - like /. does.

and all members get to 'grade' messages.

it's the only way... imagine when we have 3x the users we have now.

i hear ya :hi:

peace

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dolstein]

39. Open Letter to Mr. Pitt

I don't see how you can expect your message to get through when you unceremoniously dismiss the candidacies of Joe Lieberman, Dick Gephardt and John Edwards, each of whom polls higher than Wes Clark and, unlike Clark, have functioning campaign organizations.

Perhaps one reason there's so much sniping around here is that too many people -- yourself included, apparently -- refuse to acknowledge the legitimacy of EVERY candidate for the Democratic nomination. And by basing your "don't trash Kerry or Dean" argument on the grounds that one of them is going to get the nomination, you tacitly give the green light to trashing other candidates who, according to your questionable standards, aren't viable.

[CMT]

62. on this I agree with you

that while I'm a Dean supporter that the nomination is wide open. I think Kerry and Dean are front runners and yes, Clark will be formidable if he gets in. However, Lieberman, as much as he is disliked here, is a national figure who is leading the current nationwide polls--Gallup actually today gave him a five point bump from last month--he was also our candidate for VP in 2000 and will have some good will from that. Gep, is still in the thick of things. If he wins Iowa which is still more likely than not it could give him momentum. Edwards, while struggling is an attractive candidate who in five months time could emerge--maybe in South Carolina? Kucinich has a lot of dedicated people behind him who will turn out and support him--he could make a difference. Same for Sharpton and MosleyBraun, who have loyal support.

No we cannot dismiss this yet as a two or three man race.

[never cry wolf]

40. Deja vu all over again

Just last night I was looking at the threads and I swear fully 2/3 of them had Clark, Dean or Kerry in the title. I avoid them all. Today I was going to post on the thread about whistle ass' tantrum that that was the quickest growing thread I have seen that didn't have one of those 3 names in the title.

I was also going to start my own thread in a protest similar to this one. Certainly it would have been shorter and not so eloquent, but here was my idea. Every time a level headed DUer sees a candidate thread get out of control, even if they feel like searching them out, just post the message "I LOVE THE CANDIDATE" in the subject line and paste a link to that thread as the message. Just a little reminder to the people who are flaming that it is counter productive to the main goal.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=227780

[LWolf]

41. I hear you.

I agree.

Except for your take on who wins the nomination. I'm not ready to accept defeat; I think it's early yet to write anyone out. Of course, if my candidate had been one of your picks, I'd be jumping up and down in agreement. :wink:

I no longer read any threads with Dean in the title. I read very few threads with Kerry in the title. I go elsewhere for info when I need it. I don't even read threads with my own candidate in the title if I think it involves bashing.

I occasionally come across an article with Dean or other candidate info that makes me think; that raises questions. I no longer consider posting them here, since I'm not interested in starting, feeding, or in anyway participating in a flame war. I'm not talking about "bashing;" I'm talking about questioning and discussing the pros and cons of any candidate's platform. It's hard to discuss them here without feeding the flames. It's not a friendly place to discuss or debate these days. And that grieves me.

[Paragon]

42. Relax, Will

Debate is a natural (and from some posters on here, unnatural) part of the primary process.

When the field finally whittles down to one (*cough* Dean *cough* - sorry, couldn't resist), we'll all be in line on Election Day.

We all know what's at stake.

[MarianJack]

43. Bravo!

I am for Kerry, but not against Dean. I like and respect both men.

We need to realize that what unites us is greater than what divides us. Our main electoral goal is to beat bush jr. I will support any Democratic nominee actively and enthusiastically!

[Walt Starr]

46. It's going to get worse, as well it should

This is how the process works and it has only begun. We have yet to devolve to the depths of depravity involved in any election, especially primaries. What I've seen on DU is nothing compared to some of the debates and outright hostility between Democrats in previous primary seasons. 1992 was an outright bloodbath where I came from!

So hang in there, we've only started this ride and it'll get a helluva lot bum,pier before it's over...

[Skittles]

47. I can't be the only person who likes both Dean and Kerry

can I?

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

48. Hi.

I'm one of the posters involved.

Instead of responding to me directly, you chose to start a thread about it. The interesting thing about that thread is that the two posters had a laugh about the whole thing. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=266052&mesg_id=266297&page=

But then that would ruin your whole point.



On edit: Goddamn reality. I'd rather pretend.

I'd rather pretend that everyone agrees with each other.
I'd rather pretend that there are no different interpretations.
I'd rather pretend that people who disagree with each other, hate each other.
I'd just simply rather pretend....

[Walt Starr]

50. *

*

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

53. *

*

[Walt Starr]

57. *

*

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

58. I linked to it.

Will is afraid of ruffling feathers. I'm not. It's a big tent. I would have it no other way.



On edit: Laugh out loud at your edit. Pretty damn funny. Just trying to be perspicacious.

[kentuck]

49. I posted this earlier and it sunk like a rock....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=264324

I was trying to point out the danger of this division...

[WindRavenX]

51. For real!

I just don't get people who take criticism of their canidate personally :shrug:
We can all play nice, this is DU, and the quality of people should be enough to ensure mature discussions.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

54. Will you start another thread about this thread?

Just wondering.

[lynndew2]

56. You are right Will and it is more then just canidates

I am new here but I see so much infighting instead of listening. The religious thing is also ripping DU apart. I came here to understand things and be able to have things I wasnt sure of explained. All I see is name calling and dissin each other whether it be canidate or religion. It repulses me and makes me think, maybe I was wrong to look to DU for answers. I do not want to go away but this seems to me to be nothing but a bash club and that turns me off. Why cant we support the democratic party and Stop all this inner dissent. It is all soooo wrong.

[donco6]

66. Another reason I don't bother getting involved in any of them.

I agree with Will. I just don't bother even reading most of the Dean v. Kerry v. Clark posts, because they're a waste of time. No one shares anything worthwhile, they all degenerate into namecalling b*tchfights (excuse the term, but it's disgustingly appropriate).

All I know is that whoever the candidate is, he or she will get my full support, my funding, my shoe leather - whatever it takes to get the idiot poseur out of office.

[Kanola]

67. I agree with you very much

I have ignored going into those posts that are just screaming "flamebait!!". I am just so tired of it. I believe we have to keep our eyes on the prize in 2004 because it is going to be a rough ride and we need to get behind whoever wins the nomination and back them up full force. The Bush junta has got to go if we give a rip about our country.

From what I have read from a majority of DUers is that we will all do our part to kick Shrub 43 out in 2004.

Kim

[newsguyatl]

73. looks like your

hope for a better DU is failing already will...

in just one thread, in the last hour, a kerry supporter has said the following of dean (this is just in ONE thread mind you):

an "nra whore" an "ex drunk" an "nra clown blower" a "pathetic opportunist" a "wimp with no political courage" and his candidacy "a joke"...


how very sad indeed...

[WindRavenX]

74. Yeah but Kerry supporters aren't ALL bad

Please don't think all of us Kerry supporters are bad....

[TSIAS]

75. I agree

The overwhelming majority of Kerry supporters are fine. I'd say the same about all the candidates' supporters. However, there are a few in each camp who perpetuate these negative beliefs about candidates and their supporters. I'll bet if the candidates knew how some of their supporters were acting, they'd be ashamed.

[TSIAS]

76. you forgot a "punk"

[sfecap]

79. You forgot "herr Dean" in that same thread...

Of course, that came from the second most obnoxious Kerry supporter...

[usregimechange]

77. Thank you Mr. Pitt

I agree and thank you for speaking out!

[Evanstondem]

78. Thank you Mr. Pitt

Yes! I pledge to ignore all future flamethrower postings!

[Oilwellian]

80. Thank You

Personally, at this point, I could give a shit which democratic candidate wins the nomination. As a party, our first goal is to come together and agree on just one person to represent us and vote out the criminals running things now. How anyone can allow themselves to be obviously manipulated by the divide and conquer method, is beyond me. I refuse to play the obvious game and will continue to avoid the flaming candidate threads. It's sink or swim time folks. We have total control over whether we join together and defeat a common enemy.

[Adjoran]

82. Big part of the problem

is that a lot of people weren't active in politics back when hotly contested nomination fights were the norm. Bradley didn't put up a real fight, and even Clinton's first campaign in '92 wasn't much of a nasty contest.

But in days of old, lemme tellya . . . '88, '84, even '80, of course '76 and '72 and '68 and '60 . . . the whole modern era was filled with tough, no-holds-barred, all-out fights for the nomination. Only in '72 did the Party fail to heal in time for the general election.

We can only hope that some of the offenders show more maturity after the nomination is decided than they have during the contest. If history is any guide, they will wise up and realize where the real enemy is and what they have to do to defeat him.

[acerbic]

83. Just those "some" have already declared that they want to see Dumbya win

...instead of a Democrat they have chosen to passionately hate:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=108&topic_id=28882&mesg_id=29266&page=

We can only hope that some of the offenders show more maturity after the nomination is decided than they have during the contest. If history is any guide, they will wise up and realize where the real enemy is and what they have to do to defeat him.

Nope...

[dkf]

84. Couldn't stand it

so I finally put someone on ignore and it feels great!

I'm sure you Dean supporters know who I'm talking about.

Yippee.

[joanski01]

85. I totally agree with you,

Will. But I don't know how to make it stop, other than just not get involved in it. Which I don't anyway. I like all the candidates, including Clark, and excepting Joe Lieberman.

[birdman]

86. One of those two will be the nominee

So the two factions had better learn to like
each other. None of the other candidates has
a real chance.

The real job is getting rid of Bush.

[CWebster]

88. LOL--lighten up

just because some aren't as subtle and polished in their own form of politicking.

[NicRic]

89. From book writer to fortune teller ?

What about the guy that polling the highest in most polls, and is in fact our President in exile .If you can mention Clark of having a chance still ,then why would you rule GORE out ! I saw on T.V. the other day ,the local news was asking people in the street about these Dems who are annouced runners .Many of them did not even know who Dean was ! DRAFT GORE in 2004 for a win !

[Q]

91. Those of us who have been here at DU from the beginning...

...know that Mr. Pitt can be just as 'obnoxious' as anyone. Take his 'lectures' with a grain of salt.

[FlaGranny]

94. The only time I've seen him be "obnoxious"

is when RESPONDING to someone who was being obnoxious, to tell the truth.

[Patriot_Spear]

90. C'mon Will, they're trolls...

...you know how their game works.

[LoneStarLiberal]

92. Pareto Optimal Solution: We Need A Political Brawl Forum

Let's add a Political Brawl forum to DU. Flamethrowing and bashing threads can be moved by the mods from LBN or GD or wherever they originate into the Political Brawl forum. In PB you can call whoever is calling your guy or gal dirty names and saying bad things about their family whatever you want to; O.K. Corral rules apply.

Hijacking legitimate threads to turn them into PB threads is simple enough to counter: We all know that if you start a thread about a candidate around here you are going to attract the poo-shovelers sooner or later. They are going to try to degenerate the thread into a flamethrowing contest. DON'T RESPOND TO THEM. It's that simple. If you just can't bring yourself to not respond, alert them.

This way those of us who would like to see less of this in GD and LBN can have it our way without censoring those who are so passionately tied to their candidates and who are busy passionately hating other candidates. Everyone is made better off without anyone being made worse off: Pareto optimal solution.

[angka]

93. i've got the cure for this.

it's called coughgorecough

<insert misogynist anne coulter remark here>

and i believe my work is done.

[FlaGranny]

95. I'm with the poster further down

who stated he would not post any candidate article in GD because of the expected flames from a handful of juvenile posters. It IS just a handful, at least I think it is, because I no longer even click on the candidate threads. They are not worth my time. I once read the candidate threads because I felt they might help me in making a choice - I was very wrong.

We have a few people here whose only purpose in life is to bring down the level of the board by posting idiotic "yes, you are", "no I'm not" posts and circuitous insults. Very childish and totally useless drivel.

My advice is to put a disclaimer at the top of the board warning new posters that the board does not ban idiots and to enter at your own risk, because we wouldn't want to ban folks from showing their flaming ignorance, would we?

Just my opinion and peace. :-)

[revcarol]

96. "We have seen the enemy and he is us."

and that applies to you too, Will Pitt.
Not being personal, but you have DECIDED for us that one of two candidates is going to get the nomination...

THIS, 5 months BEFORE the first primary!!

Maybe you know who the Dem fat cats are going to throw their support to(one of the two) but I reserve the right to VOTE for the candidate of MY CHOICE, not yours, not the fat cats'choice, MINE.So YOU are part of the problem,denigrating our right to choose OUR candidate for OURSELVES. And anyone else that thinks some candidates should drop out, or they're unelectable, or they don't fit in their world view so WE shouldn't have a choice...

As for flaming, the ignore function is great. I want to find out about all the candidates, including their warts, so I will continue to READ, but not flame.

[revcarol]

97. I knew I was a thread killer,

but this is ridiculous.

[FlaGranny]

99. No you're not - I am

:-) I nearly always kill a thread. Are ya gonna let ME get the last word?

[revcarol]

100. No.

But WillPitt still hasn't answered my argument.

I consider any thread that wants to restrict MY CHOICES "flamebait."

[paulk]

101. data, discussion, and debate

I'm with you there, Mr. Pitt. That's what I always thought DU was about. I started coming to this board over two years ago because it was a great source for information. I came here to educate myself.

If anyone wants to learn more about the dem. presidential candidates,
this board has become just about the last place to go. The Kerry, Dean, Clark threads are bad enough, but the bullshit often spills over into unrelated threads when someone just can't help slip in a plug for thier candidate. Then it starts.

The worse part is that some of the biggest offenders are posters who, in the past, I've had a lot of respect for.

[MSchreader]

103. As I said before, Will

Big tents attract circuses. This massive "food fight" (thanks 5thGen! :hi: ) has made this place uninteresting, which is why I haven't posted anything here over three lines in months.

Martin