Is Howard Dean the "Ross Perot" of the 2004 Campaign? I need help

[KoKo]

deciding whether I put that "Dean" bumper sticker on my car......or wait????

And, since I've given money to Dean as a backlash support for him because of DLC statements trashing those in the "Anti=Iraq Invasion Movement.......I want to know before I go "ALL OUT" and give him some big dollars?

Why isn't Dean the Ross Perot?

Why should I join his movement.......And........it's not only Porot.....it's that I see him as maybe Jimmyy Carter whom I supported so strongly with my little $$'s and talked up and had "bumper sticker" all of it.......but in the end....after his first term......I knew the "Beltway didn't support him, the Media didn't support him (Nightline Claim to fame: Countdown tilll the hostages are freed which gave Ted Koppel his "foot in the door" to Media fame, at that time)!

Why isn't Howard Dean going to let me down?

I'm on "the Edge Here!" With one foot in the Dean camp......one foot in Kucinich.......and knowing "in my heart" that John Kerry WILL be the Democratic Nominee........because......he's DLC/DNC and ............they will win in the end.....just like they did with Carter where they allowed him to be trashed, unmercifully and just like with Clinton.......where they allowed him to be trashed unmerrcifully..............

In the end......the "Powers that BE, in the Beltway" GET WHAT THEY WANT! Why should supporting Dean be any different. Whay not go with Kerry and pressure him with all our will for change.......rather than support Dean who won't get "Insider Beltway" "honey moon to do what needs to be done to CLEAN UP AMERICA!

This is a "from the heart post." I'm not looking for anything but reasons to support Dean given what I've laid out from where I'm coming from........I hope to hear from DU'ers with "Perspective!" Not those folks who don't have a Democratic history that goes over 15 years. How could any of them know what we Dems have lived through.

It's an "Old Folks" post. (And, YUCK, I don't like to think of myself as "old folks" but in this post I have a "history and a perspective."

koko.........peace!

[osaMABUSh]

1. you need help with your spelling

[KoKo]

4. Yes! LOL's I just edited my post.....I was doing French not Texas! Perot!

Thank you.....when I posted I suddenly got hit with my 6th grade teacher screaming at me!

You should have checked.....you should have checked!!! :-)'s

[tedoll78]

2. He may be - in a GOOD way.

If he can get the kind of turnout bump that Perot did, he'll win with coattails. If you take a look at the 1992 turnout rates, they were up from previous elections - a move largely attributed to Perot's presence in the race.

If Dean can boost turnout even by a mere 3 or 4%, and if most of that turnout goes into his column, it'll be statistically near-impossible for him to lose in the electoral college.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

3. No.

He's the "Howard Dean" of the 2004 campaign.

[wtmusic]

5. Hey koko

(peace to you)

Why don't you do what's right? Examine the nominees positions carefully, then go ahead and slap that sticker on! After the convention we can work together to defeat Bush.

[ComerPerro]

6. If you don't know whether or not you should put the sticker on your car

Then don't bother. Its meaningless.

[KoKo]

8. Sigh!!!!!!!!

:shrug:

[UnapologeticLiberal]

16. It took me a while to put a bumper sticker on my car

Not because I was wavering in my support but because it lowers the trade-in value of a car if you put bumper stickers on it. But my dad said that it only makes a difference on newer cars and that a '94 Honda Accord with 85,000 miles won't get much if I trade it in anyway, and I do not plan to trade it anytime soon because it is a great car and probably has at least 100,000 miles left before it stops working. So I put one on and then I snuck one onto my dad's car when we took it to New Hampshire...he seemed a little annoyed but has not taken it off yet, so that's good news.

[ComerPerro]

20. Yeah that's true

But to me, putting a sticker on a car has to be something that you are behind 100%.

Nevermind

[Cha]

25. You're funny!

"snuck on my dad's car, too"! LOL!

[wtmusic]

17. Well some people do

so evidently it's not 'meaningless'.

[ComerPerro]

21. I didn't mean

that a bumper sticker is meaningless.
I meant the action, if the person was not sure they wanted to.

[GreenArrow]

7. For the primaries, go with your heart

and vote for Kucinch. If he doesn't win, there will plenty of time to select and support a second candidate.

[poskonig]

9. Go ahead and slap it on!

If you change your mind later, you can always take it off.

[dofus]

10. As one of the old folks myself,

I'll tell you that Dean is the very first candidate I've ever given money to.

Personally, I hope very much he's our next President. And it's far, far too soon to have any real clue how he'll fare as president. Who knows what will happen in this country, in the world in 2005, 2006, 2007, and 2008, the years of the next term of whoever is in office.

Not to support Dean, if he's the candidate who has your heart, mind, and soul right now, just because the "powers that be" inside the Beltway might hang him out to dry . . . well, you have to decide for yourself. I keep on having a touching faith in my fellow citizens that we really can make a difference.

For a while back there I was more or less all over this board saying I probably won't vote in 04, living as I do in Kansas, where any Republican will win over any Democrat, and so long as there's the Electoral College system in place I know that my vote doesn't count. I haven't completely changed my mind, but at least I've stopped saying that publicly.

So,KoKo, follow your heart.

[KoKo]

13. Thanks! I hear you!

:-)S

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

11. not to be a wiseass

but last i checked, stickers are removable

slap it on during the primaries, and if you change your mind down the road, peel it off.

[KoKo]

14. I'm not talking about the STICKER! It's DEEPER! READ POST!

:grr:

[Sick of Bullshit]

12. I don't know why you are comparing Dean with Perot

Perot always was a third-party candidate who relied almost exclusively on his own funds. Dean is a major party candidate who is drawing large financial support from grass-roots campaigns.

[KoKo]

18. Dean to us "Anti-DLC" folks IS a Third Party Candidate!

I was supposed to vote this way: Lieberman, or Kerry, or Gebhardt....in that order......

That's what I was supposed to do. And, I'm old enough and experienced enough to have figured that out! I'm on all their mailing lists........having given to and supported Dem candidates throughout my life.......I saw what my "marching orders" were from the mailings. Dean is indeed.....the "Reform Democratic Candidate .......just as Jimmy Carter was to me in my "young years!"

[Sick of Bullshit]

31. OK, I see your point now

Personally, I'm a Gore man, and I'm still hoping he'll toss his hat in the ring. But when it comes primary time, and he's not on the ballot, then my vote will got to either Kucinich or Dean. Screw the DLC.

[zeemike]

15. I am a Dean supporter

But there is no comparison between him and Ross Peroit. Peroit was a third party candidate like Nader that took votes from the other parties.
And Dean is no wacko just listen to him talk and you can see that. And he is no flaming liberal like the RW wants to paint him.
But the man has to have guts to put his balls on the line like he is doing. He is not stupid, he knows that he will face the same Jihad that they put on Clinton and is willing to do it anyway.
But we cannot louse our nerve just because we know that the RW will attack. We have to be willing to stand our ground with any candidate that is chosen. Don’t let them make our decision for us by treating to destroy any candidate that we chouse.
I say take your time. It is a long time till the primary and you have time to make your chouice.

[Cha]

23. Very Thoughtfully said!

:kick:

[KoKo]

40. A good point......but Perot had a huge amount of support for "reform."

Lots of people put "heart and soul into his campaign." Dean, isn't like him.....but Dean could be shot down by DLC and RW Repugs....those who have access to "high powered Big $$$$$$$'s coffers and the DLC/DNC....who in the end.....might know with their "operatives" a way to get at his campaign and crash it.

Perot "Crashed Himself" .........but all those folks who supported him.....left dissillusioned....out on a limb....I worry about that....

[Cha]

19. Hi KoKo! I say try and go to a Dean Meetup tomorrow night..

the first Wednesday in every month and there's gotta be one in your area.

There are 102,000 signed up now all across this Big Country of Ours!

I'm going to my second one tomorrow night and I will be driving about 40 miles!

Maybe you'll want to put the sticker on Thursday! :-)

[Eloriel]

38. One Hundred and TWO Thousand? Just earlier today

mid-day, sometime, we just turned to 100K. You mean we've added THREE THOUSAND PEOPLE in the last 24 hours or so? Wow. I have to get over to the blog, NOW.

Eloriel

[KoKo]

22. Much as I love all you "young Deanies" I'm looking for Pitt's "oldies!"

I know he has inspired young DU'ers......but Carter inspired me as a "Young Dem." He let me down because he couldn't deal with the "Beltway Insiders." It ruined his presidency.

Then, I saw Clinton .......taken down..or really "NOT DEFENDED" by the Beltway Insiders.....I wan't to know how Dean will be different......from those who have a perspective.........and have seen what I've seen......

Sorry to be discriminating here.........:-(

[Cha]

28. Okay! I see where you're coming from! I only got into politics...

in 2000 so do not have all that experience to draw from!

Just picked who I want to beat bush and lead us out of rotgut path we are on!

I have a feeling that If Dean is elected he won't be another disappointment in 4 years!

[KoKo]

42. Thanks' Zidzi........I want to "believe, too." I do..........

I just have memories of all this history with what happens to Dems who are "different." That's why I posted......on the edge of total lcommitment here......and, the past is "haunting me."

[TLM]

46. I think i can answer your question...

The reason Dean will not fall to the forces you fear is that Dean plays the game differently.


The beltway insiders are only a threat to the man who depends on them. Guys like Carter and Clinton to a lesser degree were still tied into the old system. They needed these groups to get their message out and they depended on the support and money that these interest groups could get for them.

Dean has circumvented that whole process. He is using the net to go straight to the people. The DLC tried to swat Dean down with the far left label. And the media tried to marginalize him, but it didn't matter. Because Dean went right to the people and got his message out through new and direct means.

The meetups and the deantv and the blog and all kinds of outreach and events have won Dean unprecedented level of support... all without those beltway insiders and special interests.

Dean does not just represent a change in leadership, but a change in the way the people pick their leaders. Dean figured out a way around these insiders and they can attack him all they want, he has the grassroots network in place to get the truth to the people who matter... you and me.

You should support Dean, if for no other reason than to back the guy who is fighting the system that you dislike so much.

[KoKo]

53. You make a good point, TLM, about Carter being "establishment" money......

with some ties....although the ties were fragile....your point is well taken. Dean has used the "internet to his advantage" so this campaign may be different......

Thanks for that perspective, that's what I was looking for......something to point out what was different......

The internet....to me has made a difference in connecting all of us "liberals" quickly and informing us...

I hope that will be the difference........and maybe it WILL BE!

[zeemike]

36. BTW

I am an oldie (60)

[KoKo]

54. zeemike! what do you think about this?

:shrug: Is it like Carter.........

[zeemike]

55. No Koko I don’t think it is

Carter was one of the most decent presidents that we had but he was a southern politician and he was use to working under limits put on him by the powers that be.
I can remember one of the things he said was that he was surprised at how little power the president had. And that tells me that he was willing to live under the limits set by others.
Does bush recognize any limits to his power? No he takes just the opposite view and pushes every thing he wants through the congress who just give in to the pressure.
Jimmy Carter had the people behind him when He first took office, but he failed to take advantage of that because of his southern upbringing that demands that you cow tow to the man with real power whether it is the KKK or just the boss man that has the big bucks.
I think Dean knows the power of the people being behind you and will use it to get what he wants.

[Eloriel]

44. KoKo

I hate to be mean, but Kucinich couldn't even handle Tweety on Hardball not long ago. The poor man was in tatters. Puh-leez.

No one else has the willingness and knack for fighting back that Dean does. It's just that simple. We can't ensure that the right won't try every mean trick in the book, but for my money, Dean's the only one who is most capable of handling it, better than we've seen in many years. He's the one with the spine, remember? (Why do you think he's so popular, at this early stage of the campaign?)

Eloriel

[KoKo]

50. I didn't see Kucinich on Harball. I don't watch Harball anymore....but

rely on DU'ers to tell me what Tweety says since he's always so descriptive. If Tweety trashed Kucinich it doesn't surprise me. Tweety doesn't listen ........he just talks. and talks.....

So, I wouldn't see that show as an example. Particularly since I just finished a long Post and thead where I said Tweety has some "inner problems."

But, I know you support Dean......I understand it....and I donated to Dean....but have held off commiting.....that's why I'm posting tonight.

:-)'s and peace.

[diamondsoul]

59. The Hardball is the only flub anyone can pull out.

And it's pathetic. I adore Dennis but even I slapped my head and yelled "NOOOOO!". The fact of the matter is Dennis Kucinich is polite even when he hates what's being said. I'm glad you wouldn't consider hardball a decent indicator, because it isn't, other than an indication Dennis Kucinich has better manners and a sense of respect that Matthews is sorely lacking...but then we knew that, right?

Anyway, do yourself a favor and check out Kucinich's site again.
www.kucinich.net

There have been some additions that might help you decide, and also check out the threads from here and Politics and Campaigns that have been started recently about Kucinich and Dean. I will tell you you won't see the numbers online that Kucinich has. Too many are elderly people or people who just don't have any interest in computers. Homeless people, people out of work who can't afford internet access, small farmers who don't have time for computers because they are too busy trying to makea living, and on and on. Keep that in mind about Kucinich's numbers, and remember this, I've NEVER been asked about my political candidate even though I'm a registered Democrat, nor do I know ANYONE who has been called for one of these polls they keep trotting out.

Here's one for you, Kucinich is in the lead as of tonight.
http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/ny-prez2004story,0,5467485.htmlstory?coll=ny-nationworld-nation-utility&vote8594962=1

[Jackpine Radical]

45. I think Dean has the capacity to defend himself,

and put together a self-organizing, feedback-driven learning organization like the world ain't seen in politics. If I were an inside-the-beltway type, I think I'd make sure I had someplace to jump when the Dean steamroller hits town. In evolutionary terms, Dean's playing primate to the Dinosaur Leadership Council (DLC) and Reptile Nabob Clique (RNC).

[diamondsoul]

61. He won't be, Koko.

Go with your gut. No, even better vote for what you REALLY want, not what people, the press, or whatever tell you you might be able to get. I'm serious, here. Take a chance on hope. Believe me Kucinich can handle the "beltway insiders" better than most people give him credit for. Why? Because he doesn't depend on them.

The rest do. Kucinich is used to being the hard-luck kid, the longshot, the sure loser. He always comes out on top, even if it takes him a while to get there. He does that because he never gives up. You want change? Real change in this country? Look a lot harder at Kucinich because he's your man.

[waggawagga]

24. I Think Dean is the Real Deal

And I was leaning to Kerry for the longest time. By "real deal" I'm not suggesting he's the better man (as in smarter, more honest, whatever, I think they're both about equal). Dean has staked himself on the right issues and if nominated he'll run a "I'm a Democrat and will make no apologies for it" campaign (the first since 1984).

He's not Ross Perot. He's not a crank and won't run as an independent. I don't even think he's that charismatic a figure. The enthusiasm he's generating comes his supporters among the rank and file knowing that he's going to run this kind of campaign.

And screw the gloom and doomers in the DLC. In politics I'm as centerist as they come. I think the country is ready for this kind of campaign and if Dean gets the nomination he could win. I don't think his chances will be any worse.

Why? Because what he's really staking out is this idea that the Democratic party should act as an opposition party when they're out of power and as a major party when they're in. I'm not crazy about some of his issues but on this big one I think he's right.

[Arugula Latte]

26. KoKo

Please go with the Dean sticker. I think Dennis K. is great, but Dean is great, too, and we have got a major MOVEMENT on our hands. It is...I am searching for the word...maybe symbiotic...We help Dean and Dean helps us and we help Dean more and he helps us more. He's firing people UP, dammit. People are working night and day, night and day, on goals we all agree with here at DU, spurred on by the name DEAN. Kucinich will not inspire such passion. Dean has more than a good shot at the nomination. We will be that much farther ahead on the general election stuff. Millions are pouring in in small contributions. We have a chance, dammit! A good one! Dean is likeable, almost instantly. Again, nothing against Dennis, but in the fight against Bush we have to be realists as well as idealists.

[Arugula Latte]

27. Forgot to mention

Disagree strongly that Kerry will be the nominee. His campaign is not only not taking off, it is floundering.

[Eloriel]

29. John Kerry is IMO not at all likely to be the nominee --

not if The People actually have a say.

Here's why Dean is no Ross Perot: Perot was an obnoxious, megolomaniac who couldn't see things through. Who knows why he even ran, but in the final analysis he didn't have the heart, soul or stomach to see the race through properly.

There's NO comparison with Dean. Dean and Trippi and so many thousands of supporters (in absolutely UNPRECEDENTED NUMBERS at this stage of the campaign) are working their hearts out to win.

They WILL win.

Well over 1,000 people joined MeetUps just today, bringing the total over 100,000. Deanites raised $1 million during the 4 days of the Sleepless Summer Tour.

People only have to hear him speak, often, to become ardent supporters. He's charismatic, pragmatic, clear-thinking and clear-speaking, and a real leader through and through.

Go read (or watch) his June 23 Announcement speech. I sent it to my mostly apolitical brother and he told me, "I had tears in my eyes reading it." My mostly apolitical brother is now an avid Dean supporter, and even watched Kerry's speech this morning to check out "the competition."

Dean is reaching people absolutely all across the political spectrum (well, maybe not the fundies). He's bringing people into the political process who've NEVER been involved in politics before, and certainly never contributed to a political campaign.

Dean and Trippi are also waging the smartest, most creative and aggressive campaign out there. They're first out of the box, again and again, doing things that no other campaign has thought of. For us Dean supporters, it's constant delight -- which is SUCH a welcome antidote of the constant despair handed to us daily by Bush&Co.

His policies aren't the best if you're a diehard liberal. But *I* am a diehard liberal, and I find his policies totally acceptable, overall, given the fact that no candidate is perfect. Hey -- I voted for Clinton twice, ya know? What I see in Dean is something I've not seen in any candidate for many years if ever: the truth. Honesty, integrity, character, spine, willingness to speak out (in the Harry Truman tradition) and do so unapologetically.

I've said this many, many times, but I'll repeat it. If you're not going to original sources to find out about Dean, you're missing it. Because the pundits DO NOT GET IT ABOUT 21st Century Politics a la Dean.

Here's a thread I started a few days ago, trying to capture in words what's happening in the Dean campaign that is -- well, difficult to describe and absolutely revolutionary. It's about far more than I've already discussed. I hope you'll read it, even tho it's long (hah! like most of my posts).

It's not about policies any more
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=250303

Kucinich is a good man, and if AFTER taking a look at Dean for yourself, not warmed over and filtered through various media, you still don't see the attraction so many of us sick and tired Americans find in Dean, then Dk's the guy to vote for, I'd say. Or Kerry if he's the one who floats your boat. It's just that Dean is offering something so utterly and completely different which even DK can't offer (which is what I meant when I titled it: It's not about policies anymore), that DUers of all people ought to at least see what the fuss is all about -- for themselves.

Eloriel

[Cha]

32. Good Post!

[KoKo]

35. I understand what you say, Eloriel......and I thank you....but I know you

support Dean whole heartedly............thanks for your post......I still am thinking about Carter....and no one will address why Dean as an outsider will not come in just as Carter did.....with high hopes.....grassroots funding and loyalists....and then end up being trashed by the "establishment. Clinton had the same experience......but he had even bigger credentials than Carter. I'm hearing "campaign of r Dean " thoughts from you........and you passed over the significance of Carter/Clinton.

Please.....expound! I really want to hear past the Dean Campaign on this.......I've been burned! My vote doesn't get cast lightly .......and maybe not at all according to BBV Site!

[Eloriel]

41. Huh?

I don't understand what this is supposed to be:

I'm hearing "campaign of r Dean " thoughts from you........and you passed over the significance of Carter/Clinton.



no one will address why Dean as an outsider will not come in just as Carter did.....with high hopes.....grassroots funding and loyalists....and then end up being trashed by the "establishment. Clinton had the same experience

Dean has far more spunk than Carter or Clinton. Way more. Clinton rolled over and took it. The best way he fought back was simply to not give up or resign. That's not fighting in my book, but I do admire Clinton for persevering through it all. Dean is a fighter. And it's so much easier because from what I've seen of him so far, he's got Right on his side.

After he signed the Civil Unions bill, at a time when he was already only 35% in the polls with an election only months away, he went out and FOUGHT for it because it was the right thing. He ended up winning that next election, not by a lot but I think he had a 3rd party challenger himself.

Here's what a Republican posted on the blog the other day (he's a regular blogger, btw) referencing another unpopular measure, statewide property taxes which the VT Supreme Court forced to happen:

Governor,
It's some years since we met at Riley Rink in Manchester after you signed Act 60 and not quite so many years since you were campaigning here as well. We were on opposite sides then, but I never doubted your sincere manner and have always had the greatest respect for you. Differences on one issue, do not preclude support on another. This Bennington County Republican, like so many others, is strongly supporting you. As Eisenhower once said, when asked about his party affiliation, I say "American".

Other bloggers, it took a lot of guts for the Governor to appear in our town to take the heat and try to explain the statewide property tax. Lesser men would have avoided it. Howard Dean doesn't duck issues! That's why all of us are here today.

As one "flatlander" to another, you're doing the right thing. No handlers, no fakes, no testing the waters. Just continue saying what you believe in. The GOP likes to talk about a "bit tent". "Dean for America" is the biggest tent this country's ever seen. God's speed, good luck and go easy on the donuts!

Posted by Joe in Vermont at August 31, 2003 02:17 PM

Anybody who gets in will get as savaged by the right as the right can get away with. But I think Dean will by far be most capable of quelling that. I think he'll make one of the most popular presidents in decades, partly because he's already building bridges, and doing it without pandering.

This guy just isn't your average politician -- he' nothing like any of them, even Kucinich.

And you know what? You didn't bother to go read my other post, did you? Tsk, tsk.

Eloriel

[KoKo]

47. El......I'm feeling decrepit here! Do you remember Carter and how he was

"Grassroots!" I've been though this before.....with Carter......You must have been a babe then.....:-( And, yes...I read your posts........but no one on this thread seems to know what Carter's campaign was about.....and how similar (for that time and issues) it is to Deans!

Sometimes.......I feel my posts "whistle in the wind." Not whistle out of someones ass....but "whistle in the wind."

Lot's of people never get them...........:-(........Maybe I need a course in communications skills......:-(

[uptohere]

48. I had to chuckle when you point out that Carter's path was Dean-like

so many people here think that this Dean campaign is unparalleled. If you've been around the block a little you realize that its not at all.

I did see good advice above where it recommended to go with your heart for the primary season. Slap that sticker on. Sit on that money if you want to unseat Bush though. Whoever gets the nod will be needing it.

[KoKo]

52. Thanks "uptohere" Starting to feel very alone here!

:eyes:

[KoKo]

51. El.......I think I've read most of your posts about Dean and checked him

out on my own........so I understand how you feel about him......and that you are energized.

I'm just more cautious.......looking around and waiting..and watching...but I'm getting ready to commit.....that's shy I posted. I wouldn't count Kerry out........not for a long time, though.

He's there.....and will be there......he has his own "hardcore supporters" who won't give up......

[Eloriel]

57. Well, KoKo

You'll have to forgive my pique -- but you seem to be discounting what I'm saying precisely because I'm a supporter.

:shrug:

I'm no spring chicken and I remember Carter's election, but I wasn't involved in politics back then. But I can tell you this (and you can believe me or not -- and apparently, for you "not" is the operative word) -- this campaign is so for absolutely, positively unprecedented in American politics.

There are similarities with the Carter campaign, sure. Smallish state governor gettin' out there in the grassroots and ending up winning the election because of his early organizing. But there are so many differences that it would be difficult to enumerate all of them.

I don't know quite what you're looking for, except maybe to hear what you've already made up your mind about (and won't admit to yourself for some reason), 'cause you don't seem to be hearing anything else. SO GO VOTE FOR DENNIS KUCINICH, FER CHRISSAKE. What I find amazing is that you're "worried" about Dean, but not Kucinich, when Dean has it all OVER Kucinich in almost every conceivable way except his liberal politics.

So go vote for Dennis.

As for Kerry, he's so over it isn't even funny. He and some of those "hardcore supporters" are the only ones who don't know it (or won't admit it). I'm NOT saying that to bash him, or his supporters here or anywhere else. The only thing that could save him are his campaign's dirty tricks, which I fully expect any day now, and/or the DLC lining up behind him and THEIR dirty tricks (all of which have backfired so far) against Dean.

If this campaign is allowed to happen naturally, there will be NO stopping Dean from here on out. And that's got to terrify everyone who's not a Dean supporter, from Terry McAuliffe, to far too many Dems in Congress, probably to Bill Clinton, on to the DLC, and you bet the RNC and Rove.

So, I won't be checking this thread again. Good luck with your choice and whoever it is you decide to vote for. It's still quite early, so no one who's undecided needs to be in any hurry to commit.

Eloriel

[David Zephyr]

30. My Serious Answers:

1.) "Why isn't Dean the Ross Perot?" Howard Dean is running as a Democrat within the Democratic Party. He was a popular Democratic Governor. He worked for Jimmy Carter's campaign and has been a loyal Democrat. Ross Perot was never elected to any position through the democratic process and purchased a party and place on the ballot. He was never a serious candidate and cowered everytime the heat came.

2.) "Why isn't Howard Dean going to let me down?" Howard Dean himself answers that very question on the stump is when he frankly tells people that 'the biggest lie that politicians tell people is that if you elect me I will solve all of your problems.' Of course, Dean, like anyone else will at sometime let you down. However, he did not let me down when he courageously stood against the pack and challenged the reasons for going to war with Iraq while the rest truly let us all down.

3.) As far as Dennis Kucinich goes, I will honestly tell you that he would probably be the least likely of all the competing Democrats to betray the public trust. He certainly also stood up without question against the War in Iraq and has, along with Carol Mosely Braun, the best healthcare proposal for Americans of all the pack.

I truly wanted to support John Kerry and posted here months ago why, after a lot of soul searching, couldn't do it. I am supporting Howard Dean in the Primaries, but I sure hope that Dennis Kucinich stays in for the long haul. The Democratic Party needs him.

[Cha]

33. I agree about Dennis!

[KoKo]

34. Thanks, David.....I understand what you say about this..........yes.......

:-)'s and peace and I value your opinion....along with many other DU'ers....but I hear ya!

[DJcairo]

37. I believe you should support John Kerry

I simply can't imaine Dean as an effective President. Kerry has the stature and the policies, not to mention the war record to run an effective, winning campain against Bush.

[KoKo]

43. I understand about Kerry....I listened to his speech from SC today.....

I posted favorably about it.......but......I can' get over his "War Vote." I'm still watching.......

[dolstein]

39. HELL NO!!!

Sorry, but Dean is no Ross Perot. For one thing, Dean is a Democrat, and is seeking the Democratic nomination. Perot didn't associate himself with either party.

Second, Perot's support cut across both parties and the ideological spectrum, and did especially well among white men. While I'm sure there are a few Republicans for Dean out there, there's no question that the overwhemling majority of his support comes from Democrats, Greens and liberal independents.

Third, Perot was a billionaire who could afford to self-finance a presidential campaign. Dean has to raise money for his campaign, and although he's doing a better job of it than any of his Democratic competitors, he's not in the same league as Bush.

[KoKo]

49. dolstein......an excellent distinction.....although so many Poppy voters

were so disillusioned and angry with him that Perot took advantage of that. Those folks sincerely wanted to dump Poppy.......they were very vocal.... They called into C-Span constantly and would have put our "Freeper" folks to shame for dedication to C-Span calls.

So, forget Perot............trash my Carter analogy......I get what you say the difference with Perot is....but there's still Carter. You maybe to young to remember how Carter caught fire with the grassroots Dems.....who wanted a "populist candidate to lead them out of the Nixon/Ford Wildnerness.........He was alive....on fire........I went to see him in Connecticut when he arrived by train with his wonderful "fireball of a mother.....Miss Lillian." They were a pair. The audience was so fired up it was unbelievable.

Then Carter won.....and he got trashed.... He ran on being a "Man of the People." He and Roslyn walked down PA Avenue on his inauguration day rather than just stand at a podium and take the oath....They walked in the cold and the Network media said "How unusual it was! When he got elected the "Beltway Insiders and Establishment News Media" went after him.....exactly like Clinton........(you'd have to check it out to see......but they used the same approach..) They got better with practice so Clinton was even more trashed by them......they knew just how to get him.

So, Dean is not "Beltway Insider." How does he govern? Bush had the support of everyone (except us) and look at how all his programs and appointments sailed through.......many before and after Jeffords switch.

You don't Mess iwth those "Inside the Beltway folks! They'll bite you in the Arse! Become President...and they don't like you and you "GO DOWN" sooner or later.....Just my observation......that's why I asked how Dean will cope with this?

[dolstein]

56. Dean's no Carter either

Jimmy Carter was a Southernor, a born-again Christian and a moderate.

Carter carried all but one Southern state in 1976 (he lost Virginia -- narrowly). Even in 1980, Carter ran strongest in the South.

Somehow I don't see Dean appealing much to Southernors and born again Christians.

[vision]

58. I think he has the potential to be our TR

Of all the past Presidents that we have had, Dean reminds me of Teddy Roosevelt.

Maybe it is his willingness to speak out when others are silent.
Maybe it is that he is straying from the traditional party line.
I am not entirely sure what it is but there is something about him that reminds me of TR. I could be wrong but I think he is just maverick enough that he can work.

BTW Dennis Kucinich is my perfered choice, unfortunally as long as the media ignores him, he will have a hard time gaining an audience.

[Tinoire]

60. Koko, put your money where your heart is...

If it's Dean, go with it. If it's Kucinich, go with it. My feeling is that THIS NOW is our chance to put the most progressive candidate we can in the White House. If we don't seize it, then we are fools. Look at this and take heart:


Who Will You Vote For President?


George W. Bush (80 responses) - 2.4%

Carol Moseley Braun (114 responses) - 3.4%

Howard Dean (1126 responses) - 33.6%

John Edwards (9 responses) - 0.3%

Dick Gephardt (221 responses) - 6.6%

Bob Graham (9 responses) - 0.3%

John Kerry (35 responses) - 1.0%

Dennis Kucinich (1685 responses) - 50.3%

Joe Lieberman (19 responses) - 0.6%

Al Sharpton (50 responses) - 1.5%

3348 total responses



http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/ny-prez2004story,0,5467485.htmlstory?coll=ny-nationworld-nation-utility&vote8594962=1

[KoKo]

62. yes......voting with our minds, our hearts and our principles...Not

necessarily in that order....but whatever it takes.....Someone has to stand against the Bushista's and take the "higher ground....whether we lose or not........

Too much is at stake here........the foundations of America.....as those of us "idealists" perceived it........

[KoKo]

63. Kick this!

:kick: