A call to march against the rigged election

[breadandwine]

A call to march against the rigged election

and the vast right wing conspiracy.

The vast right wing conspiracy that rigged the election and everything else including the news media is not a myth, exaggeration or figure of speech. Check this out:

http://wholeworldiswatching.blogspot.com/

•A call for massive marches against the rigged election.
•A detailed explanation of the “vast right wing conspiracy,” its structure and funding. What it really is, how it got started, who really controls it and how it coordinates EVERYTHING.
•Actual secret government document is plan to control the whole country. Actual documentary proof of the “vast right wing conspiracy.”
•How the Moonies, Rupert Murdoch, the oil industry, banks and other corporations, news media and other right wing Bush shills rigging the election are all actually tied together into a single secret organization -- the vast right wing conspiracy. It’s not just a vague propensity toward greed. It’s not just a right wing “mindset.” It’s an organization. And if they have denied us the ballot box we need to march in the streets, a First Amendment freedom we still have---

A call for MASSIVE MARCHES IN THE STREETS against the rigged election and the VRWC.

Please read the link, post on sites and forums and forward this to others on your email lists.

[Komrade _azul]

1. wow, serious blog

[breadandwine]

30. Let’s get practical.

Post ideas for rallies and marches against the rigged election below along with info on the latest anti-rigged election protests.

Get involved and start kicking. Be creative. It is UNTHINKABLE that our democracy should die with a whimper.

[Griffy]

223. MARCH on DC .. JANUARY 6th .. this is not a drill be there!

thats the day.. when we must support the lawmakers in the capitol and give there words the strength of the throngs of Americans on the lawn!! if no one is there.. bush wins, game over

[breadandwine]

190. For those visiting this thread for the first time —

We are discussing two blogs by the same blogger. The second, just out, at this location:

http://acalltomarchonfox.blogspot.com/

“A Call To March On Fox
For refusing to tell the truth about the rigged election!
Rupert Murdoch, tell the truth! Fascists rigged the voting booth!”

This second blog is a very specific, must-read, micro-detailed plan to march specifically on Fox and its affiliates (all in the same building in Manhattan — including also Murdoch’s New York Post, Murdoch’s parent company News Corporation that holds most of Murdoch’s organizations including Fox, and Murdoch’s own personal office are all also in that same building). This is in New York and the protest will be against both — the rigged election and Fox — both — at Fox headquarters in Manhattan. It’s irrelevant whether Fox will “change” or “turn over a new leaf” — Fox is a rally point. Since the media won’t cover the rigged election, we are protesting Fox over its cover-up of the rigged election as a way to break through and get the rigged election on the table. We are demanding that Fox tell the truth about the rigged election.

Obviously, the other media are also guilty, but Fox is a rally point. And progressives hate Fox and would attend the march. Also, much documentation by MoveOn.org vs Fox. And New York news media are in competition with Murdoch’s organizations such as the New York Post, and hate Murdoch’s living guts and would give us publicity provided we are not targeting them too. Once they give publicity for the march on Fox the dam has broken, the cat’s out of the bag and the rigged election is in the New York media news. From there it will spread because New York is the news media capital of the world. It’s irrelevant whether Fox will “change” or “turn over a new leaf” — Fox is a rally point that both progressives and the New York news media both hate.

And New York is an infinitely more favorable city to do protests than other cities because of its huge liberal population, exceptional mass transit, including from the Amtrak station to the rally and airports to the rally, friendly local politicians, some of whom are already criticizing the rigged election, and recent experience and practice of many who protested the RNC convention in New York over the summer. New York City has a population FOURTEEN TIMES bigger than Washington D.C. and without all the paranoid security in D.C. New York is twice as big as the next biggest city in America, Los Angeles. On Election Day not just Floridians or Ohioans but ALL AMERICANS were robbed because the exit polls showed Kerry even won the national popular vote. This is about more than some little local problem. A march in New York shows that this is NOT just a “private” concern to people in Ohio or Florida. It’s a national outrage. All out-of-towners coming to the march will have their numbers augmented by the huge New York population, plus lots of New York celebrities are activists and could attend.

Please read the blog (the new one — http://acalltomarchonfox.blogspot.com/
— specifically about marching on Fox and the rigged election) and post comments at bottom of this thread.

And if you have any doubt about the malevolent evil of Fox, a cut above other Bush shills and a perfect rally point for protests over suppression of the truth about the rigged election, then watch this video of Fox’s Bill O’Reilly telling all of America to “keep your mouth shut”—

http://cdn.moveon.org/data/ShutUp_Final_BbandHi.mov

That filthy SOB will disabuse you of any confusion.

Shut your trap? We’re going to open it — at Fox HQ. See the blog for details.

And keep this thread kicked or aliens with acid for blood will come in through the escape hatch and lay eggs in human flesh! And don’t gimme “I couldn’t kick it cuz I didn’t see it on page 1.” THAT means if you DON’T see this thread on page 1, go GET it and KICK it!

[slay]

200. Sadly, this does not seem well organized enough

Even the webpage has no internal links and it's hard to figure out exactly what is going on. I don't think this will catch on. A march on Washington might work better politically. Hmmm.

[Rockerdem]

255. Murdoch should have been handled tougher much sooner

I dont understand why any product advertised on Faux hasn't been 100% boycotted by activists. It doesnt make sense to complain but not do anything. These advertisers should be make to pay and pay hard.

[breadandwine]

256. Whatever happens, this is the ultimate issue now —

The rigged election and those who cover it up.

Nothing else will ever be as important because everything we have in our lives depends on our democracy and without its protections everything we have can and will be taken away.

[breadandwine]

265. Democrats who have spoken out---

Note: Many Democratic Congressmen have now spoken out against the rigged election and this is very encouraging. The cat is starting to come out of the bag. This occurred right on the House floor and was actually broadcast on C-Span the other day. The wall of silence is starting to break. Here are names of Democratic congressmen (plus a senator) who spoke out against the rigged election:


Rep. Stephanie Tubbs-Jones
Senator Barbara Boxer
Rep. John Conyers
Rep. Corrine Brown
Rep. Julia Carson
Rep. Bill Clay
Rep. James Clyburn
Rep. Danny Davis
Rep. Lane Evans
Rep. Bob Filner
Rep. Raul Grijalva
Rep. Alcee Hastings
Rep. Maurice Hinchey
Rep. Jesse Jackson Jr.
Rep. Sheila Jackson-Lee
Rep. Eddie Bernice Johnson
Rep. Carolyn Kilpatrick
Rep. Dennis Kucinich
Rep. Barbara Lee
Rep. John Lewis
Rep. Ed Markey
Rep. Cynthia McKinney
Rep. John Olver
Rep. Major Owens
Rep. Frank Pallone
Rep. Donald Payne
Rep. Jan Schakowsky
Rep. Bennie Thompson
Rep. Maxine Waters
Rep. Diane Watson
Rep. Lynn Woolsey

[breadandwine]

2. Note the poem that starts the blog —

I double dare you to read this blog
I double dare you to come out of your fog
I double dare you to stand up and fight
I double dare you to utter what’s right
I double dare you to be uncouth
I double dare you to speak the truth
To call them a liar and set the discourse on fire
To expose the sewer they crawled out of
And not bow to false sanction they claim from above
I double dare you to go this far
To pin the word “FASCIST” on their rising star
I double dare you
I double dare you
I double dare you

[breadandwine]

3. Vast right wing conspiracy analysis starts here

Note especially the section that begins with

"And we also need to know what “fascist” really means."

Scroll down to it (not including the quote marks around it but nevertheless including the quotation marks around "fascist") using your finder.

— That's the start of the section on US fascism and the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy, its origin, structure and funding, how it's all set up, how it got started, why we're in such trouble. Also tells what its surveillance capabilities are, vastly greater than most people realize.

[breadandwine]

4. We have to stop being quiet as mice.

All positive events now depend greatly on public outcry to awaken a sleeping nation and world. Even the legal machinery, lawsuits against the rigged election, FOIA filings, depends on outside pressure, the kind of outside pressure that can be applied only by getting into the streets. We can't only make a legal case. We have to make a stink.

[breadandwine]

5. Air America also calling for mass protests

Incidentally, some of the talk hosts on Air America are also beginning to talk about the need for mass protest action against the rigged election. Lawsuits by themselves are not enough.

[Ladyhawk]

12. Where and when? nt

[firebee]

25. Definately on Inauguration Day...

Everywhere.

[breadandwine]

27. Sure. But we also need action sooner.

Innauguration Day could be big. But we should have "warm up" protests before that. We need to start protesting now. We need to strike while the iron is hot. And that's right now. I don't think we have to wait till we're perfectly organized. I think we need to start marching right now. Even if it's not as big as we would prefer. Get something going now to set an example for others.

[breadandwine]

28. Start small, grass roots, then link up.

I think people should literally just start getting into the streets. Do small protests but maintain contact with the poeple involved and maintain the organizational structure that set up the march or gathering. As more and more of that happens small groups can begin to link up for larger and larger protests. And we need websites exclusively devoted to protesting the election so people can keep informed and stay in touch.

[zann725]

367. I agree. Larger protests take longer to organize, and delay the effect

People need to start organizing literally on a neighborhood by neighborhood basis...getting even a rotating handful of people "out there" at least every weekend. We need to be "seen" regularly...to start and maintain the dialogue.

And the weather's getting nicer in most areas, and a lot of the younger voters will be out of school and college for the Summer soon...with time on their hands.

[Pachamama]

176. Inaugural Day too late - January 6th is a much better and more relevant

date of when the Joint Session of Congress meets to certify the vote....along with ole Dick Cheney presiding....

[Pachamama]

172. My suggestion is January 6th - the day the joint session of Congress

meets to count the vote....Why wait till Inaugural Day? It should be on the very day that our so-called "elected Representatives" of the people meet to "certify" the election...

If there were mass protests outside the Congress all the way down the mall as well as protests all over the country, you don't think that the people inside that building wouldn't be "thinking twice" about the importance of their vote?

Inaugural day is insignificant....

January 6th is the day....and if Americans truly care about their democracy, they could make the protests in Ukraine look like a picnic...

Just my thoughts.....

:kick:

[ilovenicepeople]

178. If you don't have a date set and the Internet get's shutdown (for obvious

reasons) make it THE NEXT DAY.Just my tinfoil "what if" 2 cents worth.SHOW ME WHAT DEMOCRACY LOOKS LIKE!!

[Rockerdem]

228. This should have been done a month ago and ongoing

Better late than never, I guess. Instead we put our faith on lawsuits and hazy wiggle-room statements of politicians on Olbermann.

Let's put a different meaning to the words "lets roll". And not just on 1-6-05. Now.

[ailsagirl]

6. No, it's not a myth

It's absolutely mind-blowing the lies they tell.

Here's a link to a protest that occurred in Ohio (about the recent election sham) which, of course, was never mentioned in the mainstream media:

"Angry Residents Storm State House in Response to Massive Voter Suppression..."

http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=4170

[raccoon]

335. thanks for posting that link

God, the MSM makes me want to puke.

[breadandwine]

336. Hang in there.

We'll break through. The people are also capable of making noise.

[Zorra]

7. Starve the RW Beast.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2600099&mesg_id=2600099

[breadandwine]

32. Starving the beast is mostly a wild goose chase.

There are people gleefully shouting on some of these threads about the deep down inner outer upper under need to boycott some Joe Blow company because they do business with Myanmar. Everyone is off on a wild goose chase about which manufacturer of tiddly winks needs to be boycotted and how that will change EVERYTHING! What does all that have to do with the fact that our country — our democracy — was just stolen? We don't need to boycott corporations and the boycotts won't be widespread or effective and few will notice. We need to do something out in the streets so the sheep of this country will see and notice. We need to march against the rigged election. And as the above blog outlines so clearly, it is the CIA, not the corporations, that calls the shots. The corporations are way down the fascist totem pole. This is why it is essential to read this and find out who the real enemy is. Otherwise you are just shooting blanks at thin air. March against the stolen election!

[m berst]

37. agreed

Boycotting ALL corporations and the middle class lifestyle and consumer mentality would be useful and constructive, but even that level of boycott is not a sufficient response to the threat.

Thanks for the great thread b & w.

[joedemo]

96. it could bring prices down!

[breadandwine]

97. Even if it did, WE ARE NOT IN THIS FOR THE MONEY.

Read the rest of the thread and the blog. Fascism and the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy is an evil that vastly transcends anything so petty and subordinate as greed. And the Bush family have had long-standing ties to Nazis. As have the CIA which was filled up with Nazis after World War II. The CIA is essentially a neo-Nazi organization and has aided Nazis and fascists all over the world for decades. Nazis couldn't care less about greed. They're not in it for corporate profit. They are in the fascist movement to achieve the total anihilation of all non-Germans through total world conquest by the German blood line. THEY SEEK THE TRIUMPH OF THE WILL OF THE GERMAN BEAST.

Although.....

If you go on a diet, Stay-Puff Marshmallows might have to offer a low-fat version....

[donheld]

180. Welcome to DU

:hi: joedemo

[linazelle]

88. Coverage of marches during the past 4 years was minimal

The complicit media has ignored world wide protests in record numbers. I can't tell you how many times people who saw F911 four years later have told me that they first saw the 2000 election inauguration protests via F911. What will change to make protests more effective this time? What makes you think this will be covered any differently?

[breadandwine]

90. Linazelle, I've touched on this elsewhere on this thread.

But let me say a bit more. You say, "Coverage of marches during the past 4 years was minimal." Correction: "mainstream" media coverage was inadequate. Eventually various papers, including the New York Times, published admissions that there had been a lot of protest activity and gave details. Eventually things got too antsy for some of these news organizations. Pressure also helped. People made incessant complaints to news organizations. Some of it did get through. Also, George Stephanopolous himself said on-air that the media are full of cowards and want somebody else to go first. So the initial efforts to get the word out can be a struggle, but they are not futile. And the control over the media is bad but it isn't yet total. And there is the internet where millions today log on and learn things they never would have heard otherwise. Last I read, there are fifty MILLION people logged on to the internet in CHINA! Even the charges made in Michael Moore's "F911" a lot of them came right off the internet. And millions and millions of people including many in military communities saw the film. So eventually the internet had a very big effect when it reached film makers like Moore. Others made films too. Moreover, the blog talks a great deal about not just marching, but marching specifically against the right wing media. This could have an impact because, again, the media are not yet totally monolithic. Targeting the media themselves could shake things up. Also note what independentpiney said elsewhere on this thread in post number 65: He said that regarding marches against news organizations, "That's why taking it to media hqs would be so effective. How do they avoid covering it if it's surrounding their buildings, and the talking heads can't even get in and out?" They may have to say SOMETHING or there will be some other papers that will mock their denial of what's in front of their noses. Imagine that a massive protest were held outside the news organization where right wing talking head columnist Robert Novak works. So we're really in his face. I expect he would be bitching and moaning endlessly 24/7 about how lousy the protesters were, how disrespectful, hooligans, how they wouldn't respect his rights as an employee to do a day's work, etc., etc., etc. You would see vintage Novak bitching. But I'll bet you ten bucks the one thing he DOESN'T do is deny the protesters were there.

[ooglymoogly]

244. what a bunch of crap

boycotts do work they have worked notoriously well in the past and it is only one arrow in our quiver but an easy one to shoot.

[breadandwine]

253. Boycotting everything under the Sun is a diversion.

It scatters our forces and it is not a public mass action. Hundreds of people have already protested the rigged election and it has already gotten a little attention. No one is getting attention now with boycotts. If a few hundred people don’t buy something, who is even going to know? No one can even make up their mind what to boycott and you’ve got every boycott advocate running off in a different direction — exactly what the power structure wants. The worst I’ve seen so far is the call to boycott United Parcel Service because they do business in Myanmar. UPS does business everywhere. No one can live without receiving things occasionally by UPS. The whole of internet commerce — ordering things online — depends on UPS. Boycotting UPS will put all progressives into the Stone Age, a material straight jacket, paralyze the progressive movement and give a big victory to the right wing.

[ailsagirl]

8. Did anyone read about the tanks in Los Angeles?

http://www.axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/article_13521.shtml

Apparently some citizens were having a peaceful anti-war protest when two MILITARY TANKS suddenly appeared out of nowhere.

Check out the link.

Ummm... aren't we allowed to protest peacefully?? Or has Dub's group abolished that as well??

What the hell??? Shades of Tiananmen Square!!!

[Carolab]

67. They were lost

on their way to the armory. Least that's what their story was.

[nodehopper]

69. yeah. lost in the middle of Westwood. sure.

[slowroll]

73. I knew it.

We beat the hell out of this thing all evening when it happened, yet the myth is alive and well.

There's a page with pics where you can clearly see the Marines in the LAVs, who were on their way to a Veteran's Day Parade to be held the next day, smiling, flashing a peace sign, and asking for and receiving directions from the folks there.

I can't search, but look for it, it's here somewhere. This is what got me to finally post on DU-the initial report scared the hell out of me.

[zann725]

368. I saw the video of it on-line, and it was about 7:00 p.m. They were NOT

lost or asking for directions to a parade the next morning. Please!! Also, the glaring, intimidating, non-speaking expressions on the faces in the tanks "said" a lot. I know that area, and the Reserve Headquarters they were no doubt "from" was about three city blocks away. My guess is they were NOT lost, but had "wandered over" from their training camp to have a "little fun" with the anti-war protestors (Code Pink) who meet at that same location the same time every week.

I also heard the excuse that the tanks were stopped because of a traffic light, yet the footage shows that the traffic light long-since-changed, and the rest of the traffic had moved on...yet the tanks remained stationary in front of the protestors.

[alaintex]

140. you should warn readers that the link contains strong language

[robertpaulsen]

214. Kick.

I'll join LA protests no matter how many tanks they send out!

:kick:

[breadandwine]

9. Very interesting.

The rally in Ohio was just a small group and so was the rally in LA. Obviously I am talking about huge marches. That’s what we need against the rigged election and we can do this. Don’t forget that in the beginning the media hardly recognized the big anti-Iraq war marches and gave false estimates of the crowd sizes. But gradually some papers began to squirm and admit the truth and from there the publicity increased. We need to make these creeps squirm more. A lot of these creeps are afraid of getting nailed on their news suppression. Some observations:

Firstly, I’ve been involved in some protest organizing and it may sound trite to say, but you don’t get squat from the media unless you have a list of key people in the media to contact where you have in advance affirmed that they are the ones to go to with this particular rally story. Otherwise nobody in a given news organization bothers to cover it. You have to have intimate contact with key people, assignment editors and so forth and yes, it does make a difference.

Secondly, as the above blog (http://wholeworldiswatching.blogspot.com/ ) discusses at length (and it’s a very comprehensive political plan everyone should read and very gutsy) we need to turn the tables on the media by making NEWS ORGANIZATION offices a primary target of protests. We need to gather and shout right outside their offices. We need to put them on the hot seat by protesting the media right at their offices. Even conspiracies have to have a small number in the loop, if possible. It’s hard to do that if thousands of people are outside your front door, because not everyone in a given news organization is supposed to know about the news suppression. So showing up in front of their offices with a huge protest is a problem for them, especially since you are going to post info about the gathering in various places. People on the inside can be made to start asking questions about their own news organization and that’s good. It becomes an internal problem for the organization, especially since some of those people can then leak to others about the crap that’s going on inside.

Thirdly, the rally in LA was against the Iraq war. It apparently took place a week or less after the election. I bet the tank drivers were just following orders and didn’t even know for certain why they were told to park there (although they could guess) and that puts a big limit on how violent they could have gotten with protesters. A point of reassurance. And not to be unfair or anything, but I have to ask: Why are people complaining right at this time about suppression of freedom in a small country (Iraq) when we just had the most devious, diabolical suppression of freedom in a large country and indeed the country where modern democracy got started, namely the United States? If one can march against the war, why not against the fascist vote rigging? Just asking. Also, at the anti-war rally in LA, where the two tanks showed up, again, this was right after the election. Can anybody really believe that the tanks showed up just because it was an anti-war rally, of which there have been plenty in the recent past? Obviously this was part of a post-election contingency plan in case there were mass protests against the end of democracy. While this is deeply troubling, it is also a sign of what really scares them. They are afraid we will march and protest against the STOLEN ELECTION. If anything tells us marching is what we need to do now against the stolen election, it is this very thing — that the power structure has ants in its pants about us protesting the stolen election. They are obviously sweating under the collar. This tells us what we need to do: Take to the streets and march against the stolen election!

[slowroll]

74. The "tanks" were lost!!!

Go find the old thread.

[crispini]

104. Thank you for the post. Very concise, good info.

What I want to know is, everyone keeps calling for us to MARCH, MARCH, MARCH.

Here is my deal:
- I don't live in Florida.
- I don't live in Ohio.
- I don't live in Washington.
- I have never organized a large march.

Now, I can get my ass in my car and DRIVE, when something IS organized.

Or, if someone calls for a nationwide day of marching, I could help organize something in my city. (I need a date and some how-tos and talking points.)

But that's really all the hell I can do, IMO, is sit here and wait for someone to plan something. So what am I, personally, supposed to do?

Would appreciate your input, thanks.

[breadandwine]

10. Incidentally, Randi Rhodes is talking about strikes.

Randi Rhodes has suggested a national strike to protest the rigged election. Also, a caller to her show proposed a series of one-day strikes by different union groups and everybody else. Randi said okay she’s in. Such as strikes by firemen or other union groups in protest. Many unions backed Kerry.

People are starting to talk about direct action instead of just legal action. We need both. We need mass actions such as strikes and marches to put pressure on the legal system. This will aid and augment efforts by those filing law suits. We need to take it to the streets. Only with pressure can the legal system be forced to respond.

[Zorra]

152. Yes, now you are talking. Strike. Nationwide General Strike. If enough

people refuse to work, the rest of the workforce basically has to shut down because of functional interdependence.

You want your voice heard?

This is the formula: General Strike, Boycott, Protest.

[breadandwine]

153. Zorra, see post 117 below & the new blog...

New blog by the same blogger has very detailed plans for a mass march in New York combining denunciation of both the rigged election and the Bush shill media that cover it up, a double wammy—

A Call To March On Fox
For refusing to tell the truth about the rigged election

http://acalltomarchonfox.blogspot.com/

[kk897]

175. the problem with a general strike

I thought about that, too, but then my brother in law, a bricklayer with lots of friends in construction labor, pointed something out to me. Most of the people who really got ripped off in the election can't afford to miss a day of work or might be fired for missing a day (I was once fired from my crappy catalog order-taking job for having strep throat, so don't doubt that it can and does happen, all the time). It's a wonderful idea... but it might end up hurting people more than helping them. I don't know.

[Zorra]

182. Perhaps, in reality, the people that you say "can't afford to strike" are

actually the people who most need to strike.

1776:

Tom Jefferson: "Hey, George - the British are oppressing us, we are being taxed without being represented. We have no honest way to elect representatives. I think we should do something to force the British to give us a genuine representative government."

George Washington: "Yeah, that's true, Tom, but I can't do it. I might get fired from my job."

Tom Jefferson: "Yeah, I guess democracy is just a crazy idea anyway. Maybe someone else will do something to institute a genuine representative government."

"So, hey, did you see O'Reilly last night, it sure pissed me off! - and how about that Scott Peterson case, huh?"

[kk897]

183. I agree, but...

it might be tough to convince them of it. WIth times being so hard for the working poor, it seems a little unfair to ask them to strike. On the other hand, they have the most to gain, too. Since I don't count myself among the working poor, I can't really predict how they'd feel about a call to action. I'm merely suggesting that they might have a different reaction to the call than I do (or than others who are more affluent or in a better position to strike).

[Zorra]

184. Yes, I understand where you are coming from, perhaps there will be a

breaking point when the working poor become the jobless and are starving as a result of this recent selection of Bu$h through the use of electronic voting devices.

[Zorra]

186. Headline: Ukraine Opposition to Launch Strike Over Poll Row

KIEV (Reuters) - Ukraine's opposition on Thursday takes its campaign to overturn a presidential election result they say was tainted by fraud to the railways and the shop floor by trying to organize a country-wide strike.
snip---
"We do not recognize the election result as officially declared," Yushchenko told tens of thousands in snow-covered Kiev's Independence Square on Wednesday evening.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&u=/nm/20041125/ts_nm/ukraine_dc_85

Well, I don't know who is right and who is wrong in the Ukraine, but if this was a fraudulent election in the Ukraine, the folks that got ripped off have my genuine sympathy and support.

I know exactly how they feel, having just had my second presidential election in a row stolen through fraud, and if I were in the Ukraine, I would be striking with them, shutting down the country until things were made right.

I am on strike, I've been on strike since 2000 after Bu$h was selected.

Anyone wants to join me in this strike....would sure help in getting the point across thnat we will not stand for stolen elections.

[breadandwine]

11. Mike Malloy is talking about sit-ins at Diebold.

Mike Malloy the other night said it may soon be time for non-violent direct action, meaning civil disobedience — he suggested sit-ins — against targets such as Diebold. He also talked about the need to “go underground.” I put it slightly differently. Let’s go to ground — with mass marches in the streets. Legal protests are better than sit-ins because you get more numbers that way. We want the masses involved. We want the world to see the masses didn't vote for Bush. They have taken our democracy away from us and we have to take mass action. Malloy is yet another person calling for direct action against the stolen election.

[geomon666]

13. That's what I'm for.

Let's not only do Diebold. I'm in favor of blocking Corporate Media headquarters, like CNN in Atlanta and Fox and all the others. Let's take it to them. We'll block the whole damn building off. People sitting in the exits, not letting anyone leave until they bring the cameras out so we can finally have a say.

We've talked about this since 2000. They stole it again and now it's time to live up to what we promised ourselves.

[Nordic]

17. YESSS!!! BLOCK CNN!!!

God I hate those motherfuckers.

[ElectroPrincess]

98. Wow, I'm glad to hear that he's finally somewhat PRO-ACTIVE...

Although I personally don't care much for Mike Malloy and his clique ... I must swallow my pride and say a humble "thank-you" to Mr. Malloy for being part of the progressive team. ;)

[crispini]

105. Is he really? Keep me posted on this.

I live near Diebold's elections division.

[breadandwine]

14. How about all three?

Sit ins, strikes and marches. All on the same day for combined media effect. Each such day would be a day of outrage against the rigged election. And we keep it up. Those who can strike or whose unions are willing to do it would then be free to march or sit in that day. And the sit ins provide intensity while the marches provide a demonstration of numbers so people can’t say it was just a few “crazies.” Any failure in any of the three would then not be a loss because you still have the combined total effect — of strikes, sit-ins and marches. Each such day would be a “Day of Outrage Against The Rigged Election.” And we do it again and again. While the whole world is watching. We also need to have it very clear what we are demanding. We have to know exactly what we demand Diebold do. And what we demand the media do. And the Congress and everybody else. And we have to know exactly what to say to the chickens in our own midst who tell us to “simmer down.” And we must demand of those chickens, “Where were YOU when our votes were stolen?” We need to demand that the media start covering the overwhelming evidence of election fraud. And we need to really rip into the media as LIARS. All those who have been organizing mass actions and marches against the Iraq war in the last of years need to now be recruited into the mass protests against the rigged election. All of us together, we can do it. We also need to emphasize how evil and conspiratorial they all are and we need to be able to explain that when a reporter asks. Read the above blog ( http://wholeworldiswatching.blogspot.com/ ). It explains how the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy really operates and it’s not just a consensus of greed but a sinister organization. And it shows how this organization is tied into the media, including the Washington Times and Murdoch. And it calls for marches specifically against the media. We need to march against the media and demand they cover the stolen election and stop slanting the news. The blog also advocates that we should demand the media set up trust funds just like colleges have endowments so they are not so beholden to their advertisers. That’s another thing we could demand during protests of the media. Not that that’s critical but it demonstrates how beholden they are if they don’t have an endowment to safeguard their journalistic independence. And of course, embarrassing a news organization by pointing out they lack such an endowment is a wee little bit of a screw because it pressures them to SPEND MONEY. Some of them would rather just report the stolen election than have to put up money for something. But the point is, why not do all three on the same day — sit ins, marches and strikes.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

40. Take protests to the network headquarters in NYC etc.

That's the way to keep them from avoiding us.

Start at Fox Fascist News.

[notundecided]

44. Midnite Run

I went to two scheduled antiwar protests last week and nobody showed up - so I printed up antiwar posters, and went on a midnite run and put up
posters at train stations , supermarkets, construction sites ect.
If we do this by the hundreds; no by the thousands it mite wake people up.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

159. I did something very similar in my own town the other night

I went out and plastered telephone polls, laundry mats, grocery store bulletin boards, etc, with anti war flayers depicting the wounded children in Iraq. By 12 noon about half were gone and by 6PM I couldn't find a one.

I plan on hitting again in the next few days. I think I will do it on Thursday night. That way I can get all the after Thanksgiving sale traffic.

[RedTail Wolf]

15. This is what I have been begging for! March, Protest, Raise Hell!

We nee that 60's peaceful but pissed off kind of mentality right now. A HUGE march on Washington about the election, the war, all of Bush's crimes. I will be there!!!!! I have thought this all along . This is the only thing we can do as citizens to stop the right wing zeal that has taken root in our country.
We need a move back to the era when people took issues and points of view seriously enough to get in the streets for what you believe in! Let's go!


RedTail Wolf

[John Dark]

16. Word, RedTail Wolf!

Word! You expressed my thoughts perfectly. I'm here in the DC area, ready to ruckus. I went downtown for 3 protest marches within the first week after the election. (But they were small.) Everybody, get your butts over here to Washington and raise a ruckus!

So your democracy's bound and gagged
And they've chained it to a blackbox
Won't you please come to Washington just to sing...

[newyawker99]

26. Hi john_dark!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[John Dark]

29. Blessed Be!

Thank you so much, Newyawker! I'd been a DU lurker for years, and finally decided to sign up and be part of this vital community. We gotta be more connected than ever.

[juajen]

143. Welcome, John Dark

We hope you enjoy your time with us. WARNING: DU is addictive.

[Nordic]

18. Yeah, me too! It's about frikkin time!

I guess everybody thought all we had to do was wait till the election was over.

Now we've had a major body blow wake-up-call.

Finally. People ready to act.

Thank God.

It really bothered me that everybody seemed to just be content with winning the election, when Bushco would still be just as powerful working behind the curtains. But it turned out to be even worse than that -- they stole another election, and they're gonna consolidate everything, they're turning this country into a dictatorship.

[Nordic]

19. This is some intense shit, and it's perfect. I'm with this guy 100%

We have to let the mainstream media that we're onto them.

We have to shut them down.

We are the new media. They are no longer needed and are actively in the way.

[breadandwine]

20. Yeah—"raise hell"—that reminds me—

of the famous quote by the German Protestant theologian Martin Niemoller. He said, “First they came for the communists. But I was not a communist. So I did not protest. Then they came for the Jews. But I was not a Jew. So I did not protest. Then they came for the trade unionists. But I was not a trade unionist. So I did not protest. Then they came for the Catholics. But I was not a Catholic. So I did not protest. Then they came for me. And there was no one left to protest.”

See, they didn’t raise hell in Germany.

People aren’t raising much hell about what is going on now in Iraq either.

And here’s the thing. Some Americans are for the Iraq war. Some are against. Some don’t care about the Iraqis. Not about the torture of prisoners. Not about the depleted Uranium being spread around in Iraq. Not even about the deaths of American soldiers there.

But now they have destroyed OUR country. Now they have destroyed OUR democracy, OUR freedom, OUR representative government, without which everything precious to all Americans regardless of party — everything in life that is protected by our system of government — is now gone.

Now the American people, ALL Americans, HAVE NO CHOICE but to wake up. Now the fascists have come for us — America. This is why the rigged election is now THE number one issue. No matter what your biggest issue, healthcare, minimum wage, lower taxes, the war in Iraq, no matter what you are for or against, good, bad or ugly — ALL of it is now in jeopardy because our democratic system is at an end. The rigged election is the number one issue and because we have lost the power to choose our government, therefore we have no other option left to us but to make a stink, and raise hell.

Anyone who didn't care or didn't protest — now they've come for YOU — America — now you HAVE to protest.

[NuttyFluffers]

21. righteous anger, where hasth thou been?

why on blogs, of course, for the DNC has become obsessed in being toadies for GOP bullies.

If someone could spit forth the fires of retribution from his mouth this guy could be it.

[breadandwine]

22. Marches are crucial when other rights are denied.

All positive events now depend greatly on public outcry to awaken a sleeping nation and world. Even the legal machinery, lawsuits against the rigged election, FOIA filings, depends on outside pressure, the kind of outside pressure that can be applied only by getting into the streets.

[breadandwine]

23. Strategic thinking even in tactics.

One of the key things about the blog is that even in tactics it employs strategic thinking. Not just to march against the adversary in a general way but specifically to march in a focused way against one of the adversary’s key instruments for defeating us — the press. The adversary’s tool of domination becomes a critical point of attack. And attacking the press for its failure to report the stolen election ties it all together.

[breadandwine]

24. Political theorists vs. pollsters.

NuttyFluffers, the reason the Democratic Party doesn't have more "righteous anger" is that its key figures listen more to polls than to political theory. Asking polls what to think and say makes one a follower, not a leader. Look at all the info that's in the blog, the politcial theory, the quoting of Machiavelli, Cicero. When would we hear this from somebody like Bob Shrum or even Mike McCurry, both mentioned in the blog. These people are not true students of political science.

[breadandwine]

31. I'm looking now for practical input.

Lets together come up with very practical, nitty gritty plans for setting up a demonstration and march against the rigged election. Where should it be? What exact location? Who do you know or what organizations that might be willing to get involved? Post links to these as well as to info about ongoing protests or anything that could be steered to a protest.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

41. Reminder: We're planning dissent here in a glass box. Hi, FBI agent Mike.

Realize that we are all on the Wicked Witch of the White House's crystal ball. We are all Dorothy watched by flying monkeys.

They know exactly who we are and are watching our every move just like a cracked code being monitored for troop movements.

As long as this is more useful to them than an ACTUAL threat to their power, the internet will continue to be the slave drums of resistence.

I don't mean to chill anyone but do know thy enemy.

Now let's take it to the streets before the rest of the Bill of Rights is recycled into toilet paper for fascists.

"...Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the consent of the governed, -- That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."
-US Declaration of Independence

[hux4000]

33. done

kick

[breadandwine]

34. Done what?

Tell us more.

[anarchy1999]

35. "Let's Act in the the Democratic Emergency "

Published on Friday, July 30, 2004 by CommonDreams.org
Let's Act in the the Democratic Emergency
by Ronnie Dugger

We are in an American emergency. It is the emergency of all our American emergencies. Along with the Civil War, this is our second crisis of legitimacy, but more, it is the culminative crisis of our identity. Are we a democracy, or have we irreversibly degenerated into a Presidential-corporate-military dictatorship? Are we still a good country, or are we becoming a bad country? Can we understand and act in the emergency well and fast enough, or will we lose the United States as we know it?

But as we approach the national election three months away, we have slowly awakened to realize, too, that this quite general American emergency is focusing down into an historic democratic emergency.

Four years ago James Baker, running the Bush campaign to steal the Presidency in Florida, proclaimed there again and again (although few noticed or understood what he was saying) that the "precision machinery" of computers counts and recounts votes better and more accurately than people do. The Bush people achieved what they wanted and asked for, a Supreme Court order that literally stopped the recounting of the votes in Florida. Newt Gingrich followed that up at once, still in December 2000, with a call for a totally computerized votecounting system by 2004.

So what do we have in 2004?

snip to the end:

We the American people are on trial at the bar of history. If we let the Presidency be stolen with invisibly counted votes we're both stupid and supine. If we do not act now against the theft of the election, we may be complicitous in the confirmed incarnation of the first privately controlled dictatorship of the mass mind in history.

No. Consider, instead, that we, and all our good and strong organizations, might decide to form--say--the Committee of the Democratic Emergency, and through it take upon ourselves, if we come to deem it necessary, to declare--say,--a State of Gandhian Noncooperation and Nonviolent Civil Resistance, to declare-say--that the stolen Presidency, and the White House occupied four more years by the usurper, we will Never Accept.

And then, as Shelley visualized, speaking to the garment workers in New York at the turn of the last century-We will rise like lions after slumber, in unvanquishable number, Shake our chains to earth

Like dew which in sleep had fallen on you--for We are many, they are few.

Ronnie Dugger ([e-mail]) was the founding editor of the Texas Observer, co-founder of the Alliance for Democracy, and a reporter and writer, author of biographies of Lyndon Johnson and Ronald Reagan. This article is an excerpt from a speech the author gave at Fanueil Hall, Boston, Tuesday, July 27 in an event sponsored by Alliance for Democracy, American Friends Service Committee, United for Justice and Peace.

© 2004 Ronnie Dugger
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0730-10.htm

mods please forgive the 4 paragraph rule. Fair Use Applies.

We were warned.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

36. KICK. Prouty's history of the CIA is exceptional. Know what we're against.

Gotta make others see how dire the situation is so they fight back.

Damn. This is staring the dragon in the face.

[breadandwine]

38. And that's a good point.

The dire nature of our situation is really a call to arms. Incidentally, the Democratic Party was founded by the father of American democracy, Thomas Jefferson. He opposed the other leading party of that time, the Federalists, who wanted a much more authoritarian form of government, much more akin to the English royalty we had overthrown in the revolution. We are really now returning to the same struggle Jefferson fought against the Federalists. We are returning to the very roots of the Democratic Party and the legacy of Jefferson who founded it. In that sense, each of us who now takes part is participating in a profound moment in American history. We will tell our grandchildren about this time and the part we played in it. Eventually everyone will see that we are the champions of the legacy of Jefferson.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

39. Unfortunately, the Feds have surreal firepower over we Jeffersonians.

Once upon a time, the 2nd Amendment created a check on tyranny by legalizing weapons. A musket was a musket, a cannon was a cannon.

Now, getting physical (I don't advocate it) in resisting White House tyranny is a losing proposition.

We need to get through the deep multi-generational cover story the American fascists have created to win the hearts and minds of our fellow citizens who are the police and US military.

We must avoid the American Tienanmin Square scenario while we still can.

I saw a documentary film showing trucks full of young Chinese soldiers from the provinces being brought in to crush the protesters. They were surrounded by citizens imploring them not to attack their own people. The confused look on the child soldier's faces as they saw who they were being sent against was compelling.

They drove away and came back several times before they finally slaughtered their fellow citizens.
This website has amazing photos of that day:
http://museums.cnd.org/June4th/massacre.html

[breadandwine]

42. When I said "a call to arms" I meant non-violently.

The system is still not totally monolithic. Some truth gets through and we have to work with what's left of the system, media-wise, to make a stink. That means ordinary protests protected by the First Amendment. Besides, there are new outlets that didn't exist before using the internet, internet video, and internet radio to get the truth out. There is a limit to how far the establishment can carry a lie before they have to cover their rear and we have to play on that. Tiananmen Square occurred in a country with far less of a tradition of democracy than we have and American soldiers themselves are pretty ticked off over the way they have been abused in Iraq. If I had to offer an overseas comparison, I would say that it is closer to Russia at the end of World War One than China during the Tiananmen Square conflict. Russia back then had huge numbers of soldiers who were bitter over the war. Not a perfect comparison by any means. The important thing is not to get paranoid about tanks. If tanks show up at a demonstration it's important to be gracious to them. Say hi. Never instigate them or taunt them even if they deserve it. Never give them an excuse. In the 60's peace activists defused some tense situations by giving police and national guard flowers. Be a proactive good neighbor. Offer them something to drink, orange juice, coffee. If we keep that sort of thing in mind, we'll be fine. And traditions, even bruised traditions, can be very powerful things. When communism fell in the Soviet Union, only two people died. It was all non-violent. How could Boris Yeltsin and the protesters bring down the Soviet dictatorship non-violently even in the midst of an attempted coup? Because the soldiers were told to go to certain locations but couldn't effectively be told why. The soldiers had been previously told for years that they were serving the people, the masses. It was nonsense but myths can sometimes be very powerful. The soldiers simply didn't want to fight the people. In America our democracy is far more faulted than most Americans realize, but again, myths can be powerful. To be sure, American soldiers are going to be mighty uncomfortable shooting American citizens on American soil and don't see it as their job. The important thing is to treat police and soldiers with respect. And remember. Bush is in power not because he drove tanks through Main Street USA. He is in power because he FAKED an election. That's what he felt he had to do to stay in power. Why? Because democracy is a very powerful idea in the hearts of Americans and never forget it.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

43. After Vietnam, we were like Germany after WWI. Now we have another Vietnam

"If I had to offer an overseas comparison, I would say that it is closer to Russia at the end of World War One"

I hope it isn't closer to Germany at the end of WWI or the US after the Vietnam debacle. That's the danger of the dehumanizing anti-ethnic, anti-gay, anti-liberal element to the culture wars.

Ever since the US lost the Vietnam War, the social atmosphere here has been very similar to post-WWI Germany. The hyper-nationalist German people were told in the summer of 1918 that they were winning World War I. But in the fall, they were suddenly informed that they had lost. They were stunned and angry as the victorious Allies raped them economically and their orderly society imploded into chaos. They looked around to find who among them had betrayed them and robbed them of their much-deserved victory over their inferiors. They demonized, assaulted, and killed Jews, labor unionists, socialists, Gypsies, and homosexuals.

The same scapegoating atmosphere bloomed in the US after Nixon was disgraced and the Vietnam War was revealed to be a quagmire of atrocities which had also ruined the economy. The Republicans have cleverly exploited this petulant atmosphere of entitlement denied to bring us to where we are today, mired in a culture war against liberals, feminists, blacks, homosexuals, and dangerous Middle Eastern foreigners, pretty much the same targets as the Nazis.

Ever wonder why 'liberal' became a swear word? Now you know. It is the American power structure’s synonym for ‘Jew.’

[Deathadder]

45. I'm glad to see spirit and fight, please send the enrgy this way.

Please forward this to contacts far and wide...and as fast as possible! A true show of will by the people is needed.

Please help us petition the nomination of Alberto Gonzales for U.S. Attorney General.
He will most likely be confirmed, but let's give him a harder time than our "representatives" will!
If you thought Ashcroft was bad, fasten your seatbelts...

Just click, read, and sign!
http://www.petitiononline.com/xxx2004/petition.html

[breadandwine]

49. Right—"A true show of will by the people is needed."

That's what marches and rallies are all about — a demonstration, a show, of the people's sentiment. That's why the First Amendment guarantees "the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

[nolabels]

339. I belong to that new sect, the "Jewish liberals"

Well in spirit any, if they needed it.

I like looking at like everyday is a new day, and any day is good day to put another clink-clank in this effing machine we keep finding ourselves ridding on.

If we are not resisting then we are not living. If we can figure out how they got us all in a war with ourselves then we can win the battles individually. If I engage my ass then my mind will follow and vis-a-versa

March 18, 2005
Misdirecting the Anti-War Movement

The Perfidy of the Democratic Party's Puppets

By JOHN WALSH

Scarcely a day goes by that I do not receive an email from a self-proclaimed "progressive" organization soliciting contributions and asking for support and participation. Unfortunately most of these groups are tightly allied with, if not completely controlled by, the Democratic Party leadership and they toe the party line with a fidelity that would make an old Stalinist blush. The groups are legion: MoveOn, ACT, American Family Values, True Majority, etc. They raise many issues, the favorites being Social Security and (surprise!) electing Democrats in 2006. But one issue that is rarely mentioned is the war on Iraq. And although these groups will tell you that the war was a mistake, they are careful to state that now the U.S. cannot withdraw ­ at least not anytime soon. They are for "staying the course," although they do not like to use those words. The giant fissure now separating these groups and their hawkish masters like Howard Dean, H. Clinton and John Kerry from genuine progressives and from a near majority of the American people is the issue of total withdrawal from Iraq, commencing at once.
(snip)
http://www.counterpunch.org/walsh03182005.html

[breadandwine]

340. Nolabels, this is an old axe to grind to try to divert a worthy cause.

Maybe you weren't keeping up with current events over the last few years but our democracy is being hijacked and rigged. That's a little more important than your peeve of the week about the Democratic Party.

[nolabels]

341. Are you sure there is such a thing called the"Democratic Party"

No, it's not been just the last few years, I has been a steady erosion over the last 150 or so if you ask me. But why quibble about the details when the more important thing to ask is what measures or sacrifices would you be willing to expel in order for us ALL to have a REAL democracy?

I any real gamble for all the marbles, you must be sure it's a win otherwise you are being enticed and you could lose.


Freedom looks a lot better from a jail cell than does when your homeless. Two extremes to be sure, but think about the billionaire. The billionaire main purpose in life is to hold on to his cash. He is slave to that purpose mostly. What do you really want to spend the majority of your time on? Bringing democracy to a whole bunch of people, who in their ranks, might also have some good ideas to bring forth, or an old guard that is not so sure who they want to work for?

The worst thing for a critic is when they find their credibility is gone because the predictions were not true.

[ArkDem]

47. A non-violent 'Call to Arms'.

Well, that is an original way to use the English language. How about violently using the principles of Ghanda and Martin L. King?

[breadandwine]

48. Oh really?

Encyclopedia Britannica Online offers this example of the use of “call to arms” in a nonviolent, purely political context: “The Nation Editorial in The Nation (Dec. 29, 1997) regarding the White House's anger over Representative Richard Gephardt's call to arms for Democrats to be a ‘movement for change’ suggests that such change is needed due to income inequality, the increasing number of workers without adequate health care, and the number of children raised in poverty. Juxtaposes Gephardt's energy and ideas with President Clinton's boredom and compromises with Republicans.” End of Nation quote. Obviously The Nation is using “call to arms” in a purely political, non-violent context as merely a description of Rep. Gephardt’s advocacy of a more progressive platform and agenda. “Call to arms” is a common political and even social expression that doesn’t have to be taken literally. Got it now? It’s an expression. Lighten up. Or perhaps you think it was a statement of violence and sedition when President Lyndon Johnson sent a message to Congress on March 16, 1964, entitled “Proposal for A Nationwide War On The Sources of Poverty” in which he said, “Because it is right, because it is wise, and because, for the first time in our history, it is possible to conquer poverty, I submit, for the consideration of the Congress and the country, the Economic Opportunity Act of 1964… It will give dedicated Americans the opportunity to enlist as volunteers in the war against poverty.”

[breadandwine]

50. We need to keeped this kicked, folks.

Or too many activists will go off on the usual wild goose chases.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

107. Good reply, breadandwine. ArkDem sometimes has a habit of

sarcasm directed at other DU'ers. MKJ

[Name removed]

239. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

240. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jesusq]

250. Yes, I know you are not going to resort to violence

and thus, you will be ignored by the powers that be. I think you are being selective in your memory of history. Rosa Parks sparked a citywide boycott of the bus system in Montgomery, Alabama by blacks that lasted more than a year. The boycott raised an unknown clergyman named Martin Luther King, Jr., to national prominence and resulted in the U.S. Supreme Court decision outlawing segregation on city buses. But in between all that "non-violence," there was plenty of black protesters, met by water cannons and police dogs --- and those appalling images that America saw on TV, eventually elevated this little local bus boycott in the deep south to a matter worthy for the Supreme Court. Eventually, MLK was assassinated, (violently, I might add). This often happens to agents of change; Jesus, Che, JFK, RFK and MLK are heroes of mine that come to mind.

If one is not willing to risk violence in the pursuit of changes, that is fine and understandable. But sacrifice of some kind is necessary, and what I do see in this thread, are whiners who say they want to change the world, so long as it doesn't entail great cost, sacrifice or the possibility of personal harm; that is to say, as long as real conflict can be avoided at all cost.

[breadandwine]

252. Sorry, Jesusq, you just lost all credibility

when you praised the assassinations of John F. Kennedy, Robert F. Kennedy and Martin Luther King, which did the movement no good. The fact that you would go search for this thread when it was on or past page 9 just to say that shows what an axe you have to grind and where you’re really coming from. And what a threat our call for nonviolent marches against the rigged election really is. Incidentally, when communism fell in Czechoslovakia, the masses were rallying in the streets and it was all nonviolent. Nobody was being killed even by the other side.

[Ani Yun Wiya]

55. Your ideas about protests, strikes and boycotts...

Are excellent.

However...

The best time to have started was 12/13/00.

And beginning from then, should have continued until today.

Another thought...

The massive global protests before the invasion, fell on deaf ears.
And it is doubtful that even if all of your ideas were well implemented, that the effect would be sufficient to deter this crew of criminals from their goals.

Do keep in mind that * and crew told the world to "piss off" and "went it alone".

As a parting thought perhaps a suggestion...


These "hoppers" are VERY afraid of a certain kind of "bird".

It is time to be putting that bird together.

[breadandwine]

59. Well, thanks.

Many thoughts. Firstly, yes, the best time to have started this was earlier. Not just in 2000 but actually far, far earlier even than that. Like, maybe the day after the Kennedy assassination. Or soon after the CIA was created. There were 13 million card-carrying members of the Nazi Party after World War II, all of whom should have been incarcerated. Only the top ones were. So we can go back even to that time because letting all those monsters go free was like putting a match to the future of the world.

I think actually this is the most logical time to act — now, today — despite all the monstrous danger to our democracy that has built up over the years at this point. John Kerry gave the fascists a run for their money. He beat back the smears, improved his campaigning style — a LOT — raised a gigantic sum of money nobody thought a Democrat could, and lots of it straight from little people on the internet. And his performance in the debates was fantastic. He had a concise answer for everything that was beautiful, smooth, totally on target and yet did not look rehearsed.

The fascists had to come out of the closet to beat him. They couldn’t just smear him. That wasn’t enough. They had to rig the machines. Not just in Florida this time but all over the country. Reports from state after state after state of vote fraud and suppression.

Now, finally, finally, everybody with half a brain and an open mind can see that we are facing a mortal threat to our democracy. Something they should have seen decades ago, but now it is openly apparent for all to see. It’s scary, but it’s also a moment of truth for millions of people finally. And that gives us the strength of multitudes. It had to come to this before people could begin to see the truth. Even if the truth is bad, a moment of truth is a potential opportunity. And it is a time-honored expression that “sunlight is the best disinfectant.”

As for the protests before the Iraq invasion falling on deaf ears, I don’t think that’s true. You can look at the glass as half empty or half full. On the positive side, never in American history were there ever protests to speak of before a war, always after it started if at all. During the Vietnam War it took years and years before people started shouting against it in the U.S.

And protesting a war is hard for people since they are subject to ridicule about their loyalty to their country. But there is no potential “shame” in protesting on behalf of democracy. No one can say to people who object to a rigged election that they are “un-American.” So in that sense protests against the rigged election could have an even greater impact.

Here with the Iraq War we were coming off an attack on the U.S. that had given Bush 90% in the polls. Even with election rigging Bush wound up with the smallest margin of reelection victory in history. It’s not usual for a sitting president to win such a weak reelection victory. Not with all the powers of the presidency he possesses. To go from 90% approval and near unanimity of support after 9/11 to mass protests before the Iraq war even got started is unprecedented. It was incredible.

All that protest, plus the independent ads on TV against the war, no it didn’t change people’s minds instantly. And the media tried to hide the protests. But by Election Day all the polls, even the most corrupted, admitted that half or more of the country had really soured on the war and were seeing through the lies. In historical terms that’s an incredible turn around in such a small time and even more incredible considering that it was against such odds. 9/11 was like a Republican version of Pearl Harbor. And still Bush had to scrape together a victory by stuffing the ballot box. The Republican Atlas nearly collapsed. So I see a lot of hope.

(Not sure what you mean by “hoppers” and “bird.” Not familiar with those terms.)

[scottxyz]

46. Wow!

Amazing blog. Long - but I recommend reading the whole thing.

[Zorra]

51. March and Boycott. DU's new economic activism forum -

DU Economic Activism And Progressive Living Group Forum

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=255

Campaign To Starve The Beast

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2600099&mesg_id=2600099

[Zorra]

52. March and Boycott. DU's new economic activism forum -

DU Economic Activism And Progressive Living Group Forum

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=255

Campaign To Starve The Beast

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2600099&mesg_id=2600099

[breadandwine]

53. Baking and dieting and ethical investing and clean living.

Are you aware that our country was just stolen?

[Zorra]

54. Do you understand the purpose of not giving your money to the people

that just stole the election?

[breadandwine]

56. This thread is about a blog you should really read.

Which explains who is really behind all the fascism in this country. Who DO you think stole the election? Just a bunch of greedy corporations? Some people are saying, "Welp, we can't stand up to Bush and the fascists, so, welp, we'll go fight some corporation that does business with Myanmar ANYWAY." This is a cop out. It won't work because you are missing who is really running the whole show. You could destroy companies all over America and the fascists would still be in control. There is a vast right wing conspiracy in this country and it is run by the Central Intelligence Agency. The Bush's are total creatures of the CIA and have been for over half a century. The oil industry, the Moonies, Rupert Murdoch's Fox and New York Post, the bulk of the media, the Washington Times are under the control of the CIA and not the other way round. Read the blog. That's what we're discussing here. Debate, but be an informed debater. The corporations are way down the totem pole of the VRWC. And the ones involved are controlled by the CIA. The CIA gets vast, vast amounts of wealth, billions and billions and billions of dollars, from other government departments it steals from all the time. Refusing to buy Deadwood Gulch Mining Company stock or its products isn't going to do a THING about that. Read the blog mentioned in the first post that started this thread. Read it. Read the whole thing. Greed is not the only human motivation. Freud said the main human motivation was sex. Adler said it was power. Neither of them said it was greed. The fascists in this country who control things are motivated by a lot more evil impulses than merely a desire to have creature comforts and money or pig out. The CIA arrose from Dulles on as an outgrowth of Naziism. The Bush family are full of Nazis. Read what the blog says about that. Read up about the Nazis. The Nazis were NOT motivated primarily by greed. Read what the blog says about the key front of the Nazis, I.G. Farben. I.G. Farben was NOT primarily after money but power and a sinister determination to get worldwide control over every chemical and manufacturing process useful for war making and munitions making. It wasn't about money but about being a savage, conquering beast, or as Hitler said, a lone wolf. Evil churned inside these people beyond anything most people can imagine and far beyond impulses toward money and even individual self interest. They were willing to divert vast numbers of railroad cars needed for their own troops in order to ship Jews to the gas chambers. Externmination of everyone who wasn't German, starting with the Jews, was an obsession with them and far beyond anything so petty as a desire to settle down in a nice posh house in suburbia. Get it through your head. Greed is not the only evil. Read the blog. Then you'll see just how bad things really are, which you haven't yet figured out. Let me just mention these words of Nazi Joseph Goebbels. He said that the next war would witness "the extermination of Europe in a day." Those were his words. He meant, after they get rid of the Jews, everybody else goes. If he was just interested in corporate greed, wouldn't he have preferred to just enslave Europe? After all. You don't have to pay slaves. Wouldn't a CORPORATE mind just love that? Why kill someone who can be your slave? Why kill someone who can be your POSSESSION? Goebbels also said, "We will conquer the world or, if we have to go out, we will slam the door so hard the universe will collapse!" Do you really think anything so petty and minor as greed or solid gold golf tees would motivate a man to threaten Heaven with the collapse of the entire universe if they didn't get to rule? We need to march in the streets against the fascist rigged election WHETHER OR NOT you personally change your brand of toothpaste.

[Zorra]

68. Apparently, you have something against boycotting the fascists.

It seems kind of illogical. I never said that there was anything wrong with protest marching. I've done a bit of it before.

Marching is a good idea, and can be effective in drawing attention to a cause, although the media has learned how to play protest marches down so as to make them less effective.

So, what do you hope to achieve by marching? Attention? Or will it somehow take away the power that the CIA, the NSA, the WTO, the trilateral commission, or whoever you perceive the entities that comprise this right wing conspiracy to be, has over you?

You see, if nobody participates in the processes that these people use to achieve and hold their power, then they have no power. A march is a good idea. IMO, a nationwide general strike, as well as a boycott and a protest march, would be far more effective than just a protest march.

[breadandwine]

75. How do you "boycott" a covert operator who uses stolen tax dollars

not corporate profits to finance his dirty tricks?

Do you think that if you stop brushing your teeth that the National Security Agency will stop hacking into everyone's telephone conversations? Do you know ANYTHING about the Echelon surveillance system that monitors ALL our phone calls and which has been denounced by the ACLU? Echelon is UNTOUCHED by any boycott.

Zorra, I don’t know how familiar you are with the history of the fight against fascism and you definitely don’t seem familiar with the blog we are discussing.

In the 1960s the American Legion held one of their conventions and protesters showed up to protest their politics. So the FBI moved in and set up a place where all the protesters could hang out. The FBI also brought in drugs. Pretty soon everybody was too busy getting stoned to disrupt the American Legion convention. The power structure are masters at creating a diversion. And a wild goose chase.

Let’s say that after a lot of effort you are able to get 500 people to stop chewing Wrigley’s Spearmint gun. Now this may be deeply meaningful to some. They could then say, “I decided not to chew Wrigley’s, and by golly, I did it!” But nobody is going to care or notice. If the media can downplay a raucous public demonstration, for SURE they can ignore totally your little guilt trip over eating Haagen Dazs ice cream. However, if those same 500 people staged a demonstration using some of the non-violent tactics of the 1960s, if done in the right way, it could get a lot of attention.

Not eating, not drinking, not CONSUMING is not a mass public act.

Part of being an activist really truly is knowing how to focus your efforts and not dissipate them. Example: Some people thought it was just perfectly fine and dandy to support Ralph Nader. It wasn’t. It only served to dissipate, divert and distract people. Nader’s candidacy was literally dangerous to the progressive movement, and a lot of people knew that. Priorities in the progressive movement MATTER.

By the way, it’s obvious that you really don’t believe there is a vast right wing conspiracy. Even though Hillary Clinton said there was. If you did believe there is a right wing conspiracy you would not have thrown in that red herring reference to the “Trilateral Commission.” First you say you are not against marching. Then you belittle the very existence of the vast right wing conspiracy we are speaking of marching against. Do you even know what the vast right wing conspiracy is? Incidentally, one of President Clinton’s closest advisers was Sidney Blumenthal, who was so convinced of a vast right wing conspiracy that those close to him gave him the nickname, “Grassy Knoll.” Perhaps you think the people who conspired to defame and impeach President Clinton in the House of Representatives were just 200 lone nuts.

WHAT IS THE VAST RIGHT WING CONSPIRACY? WHO CONTROLS IT? YOU DON’T KNOW!

You said, “if nobody participates in the processes that these people use to achieve and hold their power, then they have no power.” The “processes that these people use to achieve and hold their power” are NOT corporate as you imagine but statist, political and through intelligence agency manipulation, dirty tricks and rigged elections.

It takes a while, but millions of Americans HAVE found out about public protests and various media organs have EVENTUALLY admitted the protests existed, in part because alternative media videotaped it and got the word out.

How do you make a videotape of someone NOT buying a particular brand of margarine?

By the way. Why did you put in that scary picture unless you DON’T want us marching?

[Zorra]

79. LOL. Yuh. OK.

BTW, the "scary picture" - I was there.

[breadandwine]

81. Don’t just take my word for it.

Go to the blog mentioned at the top of this thread and read it. Read what it says about the vast right wing conspiracy, what it is and how it got started. Read what it says about the true structure and nature of the CIA. It will scare the HOOZIEBONKERS out of you! Tell other people on and off this website about the blog. Once everybody knows the truth we will all go march against the fascist machine that just stole our country.

(By the way, it just occurred to me. How they gonna hide a country they just stole? Where they gonna stash da moichandize till the heat blows over?….All we have to do is make a stink and a roar so everybody in America knows what happened. The American people have too much of a tradition of freedom to let this stand. That’s why Bush had to handpick his audiences. Because most Americans are NOT that stupid. Once we make a big enough stink the American people will rise up and not take it.)

[tommcintyre]

57. 1 million+ should be in Wash on inaug day!

http://www.independentmediasource.com/evotingfraud_things_you_can_do.htm

[breadandwine]

60. We need chants at the marches to set the right tone.

Something like, “One, two, three, four! Steal the vote and hear us roar! Five, six, seven, eight! Stop the lies and votergate!”

[tavalon]

66. I'm going n/t

[nofurylike]

58. yes, soon. but, imho, the vote fraud process has to dictate when.

and not at inaugural, as that is too late.



peace!

[amelia]

61. My kind of Democrat

great great blog. Send it to our "leaders" they need it.

[RedTail Wolf]

62. PLEASE Join in the call for a march!

Help find an organization or group to help us put together a huge massive march on Washington. It is time to rise up and show our strength in the only what the republicans ever understand. A show of numbers in the streets! Martin Luther King would not sit by and let this happen, nor would Robert Kennedy. So why are we? Join me in the fight for organization and a massive march!

RedTail Wolf

[Generic Other]

63. I videotaped four hours of protests at the GOP convention in NYC

I bet I could NOT find another person in a 10 mile vicinity of me who would even recall it having happened. Is it mass amnesia? Or the fact that on the west coast, anyway, they never even heard it happened?

Even on DU, many people didn't know Bush's motorcade was egged on Inauguration Day in 2000.

How many remember or have proof of the 10 million who marched against the war in 2003? The media claimed a few thousand protested, that the numbers were "insignificant."

We live in a culture where what we cannot forget has not even been witnessed by the majority.

How do we combat the vast silence that echoes back when we raise our voices across the void?

Nice to hear from you BreadandWine. :hi:

[breadandwine]

64. Thanks!

Read post 59 and don't lose hope. Fact is, despite media denials an awful lot of people did hear about the protests nevertheless. Millions and millions of people are now connected to the internet. The Emperor's clothes are wearing thin. The blog emphasizes targeting the media itself in protests. That's important.

[independentpiney]

65. That's why taking it to media hqs would be so effective

How do they avoid covering it if it's surrounding their buildings, and the talking heads can't even get in and out?

[breadandwine]

84. Not only the talking heads

but everyone working in the building will know about the protest. Even those working in the mailroom. And some of them have got to not like management, perhaps because of low pay. Sooner or later one of them will go to a payphone and call some other news organization with a news tip about the protest or some little tidbit of inside dirt about his news organization to add spice to the reporting on the protest. The last thing a news organization wants is a spotlight on its dirty laundry.

[goclark]

187. Let's have "NEAR IN's" at Media Locations

I have talked to so many Democrats, good ones, who have no clue that the election was not fair and square. They have no clue about the recount in Ohio. No clue about over votes etc. etc. etc.

Why... because the media refuses to tell them.

One friend told me that she won't watch Fox, she always gets her news from CNN! I had to school her real fast and she had no clue how vicious CNN is on a daily basis.

There is a link here to all the locations of Fox news.
There must be ones for CNN as well.

I say a 21st Century "Near In" Not a Sit In, a NEAR IN."

Phase One:
Check out the neighborhood. Wear no badges, carry no signs, just see them in their carefree happy work environment.

Just two or three "Near In Buddies" visit a Starbucks NEAR the media location!

Smile and make nice with the Secretaries/Janitors/Fax Machine Operators. Act the way a tabloid reporter would act. :think:

Let the neighborhood recognize us as friends. Be visible.Totally non threatening(I know that part is hard.)

Phase 2: 3 or 4 days later
Wear hats/badges that say," Air America is FAIR America!" or " Fox Fair? - NOT

Phase 3: Protest! Signs/flyers the full out press.

[nodehopper]

70. hey, were you working with the No RNC Vid. Coalition during the RNC?

just curious :)

[Generic Other]

71. No, I turned on C-Span and my vcr! ;)

I just get frustrated that I seem to know what's going on way before my fellow Americans!

If I read it on DU, I know my neighbors will hear about it a week later.

Still, if Americans decide to take to the streets, I am there.

[ohio_liberal]

124. I didn't know

about the egging until I watched Fahrenheit 9/11. Your point is well made.

[candy331]

72. And so they really are about morals is why they voted for him right

Perhaps he is as someone mentioned the Armageddon President selected by the Lord. Ceases to amaze at this world anymore.


"And all this is still relevant because Bush stole the election again and is still in power. Bush is a cokehead. His face and lower mouth are practically falling apart with the neurological jitters and twitches (“geeking”) typical of long, excessive, chronic cocaine use. He was arrested for drunk driving. He’s a hollow shell of a man, a brain dead cyborg controlled by a joystick radio receiver stuck on his back. In his youth he blew up frogs with firecrackers in their orifices and in college instituted a frathouse initiation practice of branding people in their anal crack with a red-hot clothes hanger. In the National Guard he set on fire his feces and then hurled them at the drill sergeant’s house. His flimsy alibi of having since become a Christian does not explain his constant continued use of obscene and filthy language in private.

[regularjoe]

76. Kick

[breadandwine]

77. Thanks for the kick!

If you’re reading this, please help us keep this thread alive by kicking and check back frequently if you can and keep an eye on its location to keep the thread from being archived. This is an important thread. Together we can carry this to practical plans for protests against the rigged election.

[ArkDem]

78. Thanks for the thread. I'm saving it forever.

Great comedy.

[Krs216]

80. Its about time

Where do I sign up?

[breadandwine]

82. We should also post march chants and picket sign ideas here.

Here’s one:

Bush stole America! Where’s he gonna PUT it?!
Bush stole America! Where’s he gonna PUT it?!
Bush stole America! Where’s he gonna PUT it?!

Works good as chant or picket sign.

(Implies he’s no better than a slimy bank robber who now needs to hide his loot; he won’t be able to and he won’t get away with it.)

[JudyM]

85. Idea: one theme we should hammer is the administration's lack of morality

e.g., 'where is the morality in tax breaks for the wealthy' or 'destruction of pristine reserves for oil is not one of OUR moral values' etc that type of thing.

If they didn't hear our voice as being on the side of morality let's let them hear it loud and clear NOW.

[notundecided]

91. Forget Washington -- Shutdown Wall Street

You want to hit them where it hurts? Shutdown Wall Street with
massive demonstrations. After all they're the bastards who picked
Bush.

[breadandwine]

92. Wall Street is right around the corner from Ground Zero.

The security there is consequently far greater than it once was. You won't be able to shut down Wall Street. The World Trade Center itself was a financial and investment building. Read over the posts on this thread very carefully. Read the blog that is the focus of this thread. Any problems with that? It is a big mistake to think the real power in America is just the corporations and money. Not in your wildest dreams can a private company do the things the vast right wing conspiracy is capable of and we are talking about state power, not private power. It is a wild goose chase to think that if you scare a steel company or a clothing manufacturer that all of a sudden the CIA is going to stop rigging elections and committing dirty tricks. The CIA gets its money from government coffers. (Also drug money.) It would be untouched by an attack on corporations. President Kennedy was not killed by a corporation. He was killed by the CIA. Shutting down Wall Street has nothing to do with anything. It won't pressure the news media to tell the truth. It won't do a thing about the rigged election. And when you buy a share of stock on Wall Street, almost always that money you put up does not go to the corporation. It goes to some other private investor who owned the share previously. You are making the same mistake Ronald Reagan made. He thought that if Wall Street did well that that would translate into a better economy. The truth is mostly the opposite. What's good for Main Street America is eventually good for Wall Street and not the other way round. Futzing around with Wall Street will not have much effect good or bad on how companies make money. A steel manufacturer doesn't make money on Wall Street. He makes money by making steel. In thinking that Wall Street is the center of everything you are making the same mistake as the Republicans, who think that if private individuals pass around paper stock certificates between them like hot potatoes, that then no one in America has to work for a living. Incidentally, the major corporations in America are not based on Wall Street so protesting on Wall Street doesn't get close to any of them. On Wall Street thousands of companies are listed on the New York Stock Exchange there. None of them will feel threatened if you hold a protest on Wall Street because you aren't singling any of them out. Also, a lot of people on Wall Street hate Bush. The market has been real lousy underr Bush. Every time Bush announced that prosperity was just around the corner or that the economy was strong, immediately, like within hours, the stock market plummeted because they all thought Bush was an ass who didn't know anything about economics or markets. So what exactly are you going to accomplish protesting on Wall Street when a lot of those people think Bush is a moron anyway? You still won't get to the people who really control America. All you'll do is make the people on Wall Street dislike Democrats. By the way. A lot more wealth passes through the commodity markets than the stock market. The commodity markets are in Chicago.

[breadandwine]

93. The rigged election should be the central issue.

I think we should hammer at the rigged election totally. This is the ultimate issue of our times. All other things are secondary. Every belief, every dream, every goal that any of us has, is now in the trash because without democracy we all have nothing. Our free, democratic society was what secured all other things for us. Even lower taxes for those Americans who want that. If Bush can now raid Social Security and Medicare nothing is removed from him. Why SHOULDN'T he now raise taxes? Once we lose our democracy they can do anything. Just look at Newt Gingrich. He demanded term limits for congressmen. Once the GOP won he declared, welp, now we don't need term limits for congressmen, since the whole purpose of that was to elect Republicans and now we have. The end of democracy is the ulitmate danger to all things precious to all Americans. Freedom of religion, morality, anything you want, and care about and dream about goes down the drain once there is no democracy. Democracy was our only security.

[breadandwine]

83. After all.....

(Bush stole America. He'll never be able to get away with it. After all. There's only one place he can sell it....Marrakech.)

[__Inanna__]

87. Just a question...

If the CIA controls the VRWC, then why is the VRWC purging the CIA of those disloyal to the VRWC? Also, who are the Neocons, what is the New World Order and have you ever heard of the Illuminati?

[breadandwine]

89. Inanna, let me try to respond comprehensively.

Inanna, As the blog explains (the one mentioned at the top of this thread — you should really read it, it’s what we’re all talking about in this thread) there are people in the CIA who are more important than others. Also, there were Clinton era CIA appointees. The CIA kept those people largely in the dark and worked around them. Clinton-appointed CIA Director John Deutsch was completely clueless and the CIA kept lying to him and sending him on wild goose chases. “Oh my gosh! Oh my gosh! Guess what’s happening in Kamchata!” they screamed to him. “Guess what’s happening in Swaziland!” The one thing they never told him was guess what’s happening at the CIA.

According to the New York Times some years ago, ALL living directors of the CIA are on record as saying the CIA lied to them and kept them out of the loop. The CIA is COMPLETELY INSULATED from civilian control. But as the blog points out, the whole Bush family is pure CIA at least since the 1950’s. So if Bush purges the CIA of people he doesn’t like, that is merely the CIA tidying up its privy.

Also, as the blog explains, the analysts in the CIA that we hear so much about are not the real CIA. They’re just a front. As Colonel Fletcher Prouty (mentioned at length in the blog) charged, the real business of the CIA is not the analysis but the “fun and games.” He said the analysts were a “front.”

Deutsch was so clueless that he thought he was “analyst in chief” and thought his job was to keep track of everything that was happening in the world, instead of being a tough administrator and keeping control over the fascists, covert operators, election riggers and manipulators in the CIA who do not even work out of the same CIA division as the analysts.

Just to illustrate how clueless Deutsch was, there is vast, massive evidence of CIA drug operations. The CIA is running drugs all over to help pay its bills. Read Michael Levine’s “Deep Cover.” Levine was a Drug Enforcement Administration agent who had a plan to apprehend the biggest Latin American drug kingpins. According to his allegations, the CIA moved in and double-crossed and manipulated everyone and killed the whole effort in order to protect its allies in the drug world. Many of the CIA’s dirtiest overseas operations, aiding terrorists and fascists, are paid with drug money.

During the Clinton era there was a public meeting held by Democratic Congresswoman Maxine Waters to discuss the CIA’s drug operations. Here is an article that talks about some of it:

http://www.themilitant.com/1996/6035/6035_17.html

Deutsch showed up at the town meeting and looked totally like a deer caught in headlights, fecklessly trying to insist the CIA has no drug operations. Deutsch was completely clueless. CIA drug operations go way back to the Vietnam War era at least.

Ultimately the drug trafficking started in the 1800’s when imperialist European nations were selling opium to the Chinese, which started the Opium Wars. An eventual outgrowth of this was the drug traffic in Southeast Asia, controlled by the French. As the French were forced out of Southeast Asia, the CIA moved in and took over the drug operations. The French were in it in part for the money. The CIA was interested in the opium for power in Southeast Asia to fight the communists.

The CIA set about teaching poppy producers in Southeast Asia to chemically alter the opium they were producing from the poppy plants and turn it into the much more powerful heroin. Southeast Asian heroin producers sold the heroin to the rest of the world and it wound up in the veins of young people in the United States. Once the CIA had tribes in Southeast Asia producing heroin, they could sell them guns and turn them into armed militias against the communists, since the communists hated them for their drug trafficking — so the heroin producers had a vested interest in arming and fighting the communists. Thus, with heroin, the CIA was creating military groups within the population that would be opposed to the communists and fight them.

As for some of the other right wing individuals and groups in high places, read what the blog we’re talking about says about how the CIA has infiltrated everybody, other departments of the government, the Pentagon, FBI, U.S. Customs, and in the private sector many news organizations as well as the oil industry and the Moonies. There is overwhelming evidence that all these different entities are working in close cooperation. Not one of these alone could effectuate such clandestine cooperation. Only the covert operations of the CIA could orchestrate all these different groups. Nobody else has the resources, the vast communications system that only the CIA has, vast surveillance and infiltration capabilities which the Pentagon does not have even. Only the CIA has the means to orchestrate all this fascist activity.

Read the blog. It explains all this, talks about the Echelon surveillance system that enables supercomputers to store and listen to every phone call in the United States and the CIA is in ultimate control of Echelon. The ACLU has done a lot of work on Echelon and has denounced it. At this very moment every single telephone call that YOU PERSONALLY have made in the last three months, even from pay phones, has been snatched from telecommunications satellites and telephone industry microwave relay stations all over the country and is on file in Fort Meade MD and voiceprint and voice recognition software is used to pour through those calls looking for key words of interest to U.S. intelligence. Say the wrong thing, even in an email, and the intelligence computers immediately flag that call and a computer signals a technician to listen to all the calls you made in the last three months. Everyone on Capital Hill, Democratic activists, everyone, is being monitored. Do you in your wildest dreams imagine that somebody merely in some right wing or “neo-con” think tank could do all that? In fact, it is the CIA that is orchestrating the financing of right wing think tanks and organizations, as the blog explains.

Only U.S. intelligence has such a capability and it is well documented how Echelon works, where its facilities are located around the world. There are published photographs of the satellite dishes used by the Echelon surveillance system. They all look like giant golf balls, not dishes. The reason is that surrounding the satellite dish is a spherical dome of thin plastic that does not obstruct the radio waves. The dome is there so no one can tell by looking which way the satellite dish is pointed, since they are pointing it illegally at a commercial telecommunications satellite to monitor its signals and eavesdrop on people’s phone calls massively all over the world.

But beyond this, just look at the Kennedy assassination. To make it work there were so many different pieces of the puzzle that had to come together, and nobody, not the Mafia, oil industry, and many other well-known CIA allies and tools could, by themselves, alone have orchestrated the Kennedy assassination. Only the CIA had the means and the vast tentacles to control so many things.

In intelligence parlance the oil industry, Mafia and others involved in the Kennedy assassination, who were acting at a lower, subordinate level, were recruited by the CIA to participate in the assassination because they had been past allies of the CIA and because the CIA specifically wanted to structure the assassination as what is called a “false flag operation.” That’s a standard intelligence term. That is, to keep everyone confused and guessing, put somebody else’s name or identity on the operation to keep the world off on a wild goose chase trying to figure out who really did it. But everyone involved in the Kennedy assassination was a past ally of the CIA. And there were also many CIA personnel involved at a very high level, high CIA officials we know of by name. There were known CIA personnel in Dealey Plaza, including the shooters and their handlers. But other participants elsewhere in the conspiracy gave the CIA cover by keeping people busy looking at the wrong things. The Kennedy assassination was a classic CIA “false flag operation.”

But let’s look at the Kennedy assassination even further. During World War II allied intelligence assassinated high Nazi official Reinhard Heydrich as his car rounded a hairpin turn, forcing the car to slow down, thus allowing a good shot. The allies had acquired, in advance, intelligence on the route Heydrich would be taking that day.

The assassination of President Kennedy employed the same kind of hairpin turn — turning left from Houston Street onto Elm Street. And this slowed down not only Kennedy’s limousine but the whole motorcade ahead and behind that vehicle, so that Kennedy’s limousine was slowed for several critical seconds.

But that portion of the route had not even originally been on the planned route for the motorcade. Somebody, somebody with extraordinary ability to alter plans at high places convinced all the right people to change the route so that Kennedy’s car would make that critical hairpin turn in Dealey Plaza that forced it to slow down and made it possible for at least three assassins to get good shots. Democratic Senator Christopher Dodd of Connecticut, back when he was a congressman, served on the House Select Committee on Assassinations, and concluded that there had been three assassins. Whoever they were, someone with extraordinary influence and access manipulated to change Kennedy’s route so it would run through that hairpin turn, slow down, and give the shooters a good shot. Read what the blog says about how CIA director Allen Dulles wrote a secret document about how the whole government would be infiltrated by the CIA. Only this could have given the conspirators the access, the influence to alter the Kennedy motorcade route in this extraordinary way to permit the assassination.

The charge that the CIA infiltrated the whole United States government comes in part from the secret document proposing this that was authored by CIA director Allen Dulles. Colonel Prouty wrote extensively about this secret document as the blog tells. Colonel Prouty was in a unique position to know. He worked for the Pentagon as the key liaison to the CIA and it was Prouty to whom the CIA came when they needed help for a big clandestine operation. But Prouty, as a Pentagon man, never took the CIA oath of secrecy and thus he spilled the beans in his book, “The Secret Team,” which the blog discusses extensively. Prouty calls the Dulles document “Allen Dulles’ Mein Kampf” and even “The CIA’s Mein Kampf.” It is actual documentary proof of the “vast right wing conspiracy” of which Hillary Clinton spoke. And that Dulles document makes crystal clear that it is the CIA that controls the vast right wing conspiracy. Just the CIA. Not somebody else. Everybody else’s strings are being pulled from the CIA.

READ THE BLOG!!!!!!!!!!

[northamericancitizen]

106. Ty for this clear and enlighting explanation. Well written. nt

[regularjoe]

86. Kick

[breadandwine]

94. Good News Update!

The blog talks about Senator Chuck Schumer and how he beat D’Amato by constantly running ads saying, “Al D’Amato is lying again!” And how he’s a fighter who we need to take a larger leadership role in the Democratic Party.

Well guess what? Senate Democrats just tapped Schumer to be the chairman of the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee! He’ll be planning out the campaigns of Democrats seeking Senate seats and reelection to the Senate in 2006. He’ll play a key role in recruiting Democrats to run for the Senate too.

In 2006 Bush is going to try to get a filibuster proof Senate. It’s going to be really dirty again. I am sure they will try to steal elections like they did to Max Cleland. The election rigging will still be a huge problem I’m sure unless the people rise up against it.

But if anybody can stop the Republicans from getting a filibuster-proof Senate, Schumer can. First piece of good news I’ve heard in a while. Schumer is a powerful fundraiser too.

[regularjoe]

95. Kick

[in_cog_ni_to]

99. kick

:kick:

[floridadem30]

100. I can't go to Washington, but I will gladly march anywhere in FL.

Just tell me where. I can also email a letter to my local paper the charlotte sun. They have been printing the voting irregularities and many of the columnists are democrats.

[demo dutch]

101. Can't get the PalmBch Post or Sunsentinel to print anything!

Do you think the Charlotte Sun would print the Berkeley Studie that came out yesterday?

[regularjoe]

102. Kick

[north houston dem]

103. Tin Foil Hat Day

What is stupid?

There are many people I have known that could be considered stupid. I can be very stupid at times. That does not mean that i

am illiterate or uneducated or worthless - it just means that i am a human being and not perfect. I know a lot of people

think i am stupid (or crazy) because i keep insisting that the election was rigged - so be it, I am stupid and crazy.

Furthermore, I claim my stupidity. And my tin foil hat.

So heres what a stupid liberal southerner thinks:

The media has used this perception (stupid, crazy) to squash any meaningful discourse about what happened during the

election, citing "internet conspiracy theories" and whatnot. Coverage has been mostly nonexistent. I had lunch with my 70 yr

old father today. He knew nothing about what is going on. He's not internet savy, watches only regular broadcast TV. He was

very interested in what i had to tell him. (He was also very impressed with DU) And while he was outraged, he also said that

we could not win. I'm stupid and i must disagree.

The media marginalise and ignore this issue that strikes at the very heart of our democracy. (I still can not believe that

they are sitting on this the way they are! How dare they? They bite the very hand that feeds them - exactly what do they

think will happen to the media when the country transforms into a Theocracy?)

The republicans have mastered the sound bite and the moral values question. They know most people are lazy and yes,stupid

and don't want politics to take up too much of their time. Some, but not all, realize how politics affect their lives.
The regular joe mentality =
why should i care about that, it doesn't affect me.

Meanwhile the democrats are seen as the "intellectual elitists" because we run intelligent people for office.....or because

we know that issues are not black and white and can be complex. So be it. We are also the stupid and crazy people that are

clogging up the blogisphere with "conspiracy theory" Hell, we even call each other stupid do we not? I personally am so

stupid and crazy that I believe in democracy and will do what is necessary to save it. I say we claim our stupidity and our

regular joeness back from those bastards. I suggest that we embrace crazy like there is no tomorrow.

We have to frame the argument in the way that most directly impacts RJ's life. One thing about regular joe, he's a patriotic

guy. He's over in Iraq dying by the thousands cause he's so patriotic. He loves his country. Just like you. Just like me.

And that is the thing that we must exploit to save this country. The repigs stuffed the attack of 9/11 down everyones

throat to reelect chimpy. I say we frame this as an attack on Democracy and shove back. Picture this on your tinfoil hat:

Attack? What attack?
Why the attack of November 2, 2004.
"The day democracy died"

I am such a stupid ass,I believe in Democracy.
www.blackboxvoting.org

Who chooses?
(appropriate link)

one voter, one vote counted


Or any of the excellent slogans already suggested, but always with the appropriate web link.

And may I suggest that we pick a particular day and fashion ourselves the most magnificent tin foil hats that have ever been

seen. (with the appropriate link and slogan predominantly displayed) And wear them all togeather on the same day. All day

long. Embrace your stupidity to save your country. A simple, cheap, eye catching way to shove this thing down the media's

throats. Can you imagine what would happen if all these "stupid crazy" people show up on the streets and in the workplace

wearing foil hats? Why people will stare. And maybe check the link. And maybe be convinced. and maybe tell others. and

then, maybe the outcry would become so huge that the media could not ignore it any longer.

What do ya think DUers? As I already said I'm stupid and crazy.
(this post is from another thread but it seems more appropriate here)

[northamericancitizen]

108. from Québec

As soon as u guys will have a date for a major event I know that here we will be able to find thousand if not ten of thousands people ready to take the streets. Maybe not under the "vote fraud" umbrella
but certainly against the war and busco.

[breadandwine]

110. Wear tin foil hats? The hell we will.

North houston dem, are you from Texas? Not all of America is Texas. I’m sorry but your post is just filled with demoralization and a lengthy call for us to proclaim ourselves stupid and go around wearing tin foil hats. That’s what you said. You’ve only made a handful of posts and this one surely gets you off on the wrong foot. Wearing tin foil hats you advocate? We will do nothing of the sort. A recent study found that there is a direct correlation between education and living in a Democratic state. Democratic states are better educated. It is a statistical fact. This is a source of pride, not shame. So stop complaining about the people around you. And stop declaring that we are supposed to act stupid. That’s really weird.

We’re not going to have protesters at our rallies going around saying how stupid we are. Anyone who tries to wear a tin foil hat as you propose, at our protest against the rigged election, in order to discredit us, will have that hat ripped from his little head, torn into teeny tiny eentsy weentsy itty bitty little pieces and stomped on.

According to the New York Times, during the 1960s there were anti-war demonstrations in which fully HALF of the demonstrators were government informants sent there to manipulate, discredit and waylay the legitimate demonstrators. There were also lots of agents provocateurs, feds sent there specifically to instigate activity that would make the demonstrators look bad, like by burning the American flag. This is why many rallies against the war in Vietnam developed a parade “marshal” system, in which people with armbands or the like, identifiable as official representatives of the march, were scattered throughout the march and were there to maintain protest discipline, and stop people from doing stupid things that would be used to discredit the protest.

The media can say we’re crazies or conspiracy theorists but so what? The important thing is not to support that by wearing foolish tin hats. Getting out the facts about the rigged election makes empty ridicule look very shallow. Once people have the facts, name-calling falls flat. That some in the media are calling us “conspiracy theorists” only means that they themselves think that there are more holes in the dike than they have fingers and they fear that the word is getting out about the rigged election. Their name calling only proves they are in a panic about the dam already having burst. They themselves think the floodgates are already open or they would not be ridiculing. They would be silent. So if they themselves are already afraid of us, why speak with such demoralization? If you can’t handle a little ridicule of your beliefs, you don’t know what country you’re living in.

[ChiciB1]

109. I've Been Calling For This...

Since The Day After The Election!!! I'm with RedTailWolf!! I'm a "boomer" and remember how it felt! I personally don't think a Protest On Inauguration Day is the best day.

I think we SHOULD ORGANIZE SOMETHING BIG NOW!! I live in Florida!! Nuff, said???? I've had it!! Katherine Harris is my Congressperson AGAIN!! It's just TOO MUCH TO TAKE ANYMORE!! Three strikes and I'm ready to go. I have A Bush as Prez (????) A Bush as Gov. (!!!) and now I have Cruella AGAIN!!

Let's March On D.C. ASAP!! BEFORE the Inauguration!! I will drive up there with quite a few people, we want to DEMONSTRATE, not just BOYCOTT!!

I'm already boycotting those companies I know about, but in simplistic terms it only does a little bit!! We can show up at places like Publix and Walmart, but what good is it going to do?? I know Democrats who won't give up Walmart, so some of it is useless!

LET'S MARCH... NOW!!!!

[breadandwine]

111. I also think we can't wait and must march now.

I am not entirely smitten with Washington as the venue. People may wind up treating Washington as "Something we're going to do at Innauguration time"..... Then it could even become the "quadrennial innaugural march on the Republican presidency." People need to know this is not about innauguration only. It's not something we'll just do once every 4 years. They need to know this is the start of incessant rallies and marches again and again and again as long as that slimy little usurper remains holed up Kerry's house. I think this is very much about legitimacy. We must deny Bush the aura of legitimacy at all cost. He is an illegitimate bastard of a president and he has no legitimacy. All this crap about us Democrats needing to maintain "continuity" by respecting Bush as the leader — a total one way street they never reciprocate — is such a bunch of "we'll be good little boys in the corner" wimpish generic crap. Everyone acts like the cheek must be turned — invariably ours. The election was stolen. Taking to the streets is not futile regardless of what happens because it denies Bush the aura of legitimacy. No matter whether he loses on a recount, stays in office for 4 years or even gets impeached, no matter how it plays out, every moment that sewer rat stays in the White House the nation and world must hear over and over that he is an illegitimate bastard of a usurper with no legitimate authority.

[northamericancitizen]

112. Keep on repeating this message.

Eventually enough people will believe it and stand up.

[breadandwine]

113. We have to march. We have no choice.

What I think we need to keep in mind is that we have no choice. We absolutely have no choice. None. Zero, zip, zilch, nada. We HAVE to march and it is a First Amendment right of assembly. Some people are saying, “Um, so anyway, who are you for in 2008? What are we looking at for 2006?” Even in Congressional and Senatorial elections, if you look at the loss of Senator Max Cleland’s seat, nobody expected him to lose given what the polls said. So it’s already being rigged at the Senatorial level, Congressional probably too. And all evidence says the electric machines were rigged there in Cleland’s race. So there isn’t going to be a 2008 or 2006. It’s over. It ends here. The whole democracy is finished. Every discussion you see theorizing about updating the party’s platform or whatever, while potentially useful, comes to a dead end if the elections continue to be rigged. This is why it infuriates me to see people talking about going on a diet. I remember the day President Kennedy was shot. I was a little kid on a bus with my friend and we were just happily chatting away because we hadn’t yet heard, and didn’t notice how ashen-faced everybody else on the bus was. Then a woman stopped us and said, “Child, the President’s been shot.” Novemeber 2nd was like a second Kennedy assassination. Our democracy was assassinated. The other day I got an email from the Democratic National Committee, saying basically, “Um, so ANYWAY, we’re moving FORWARD.” And not a word about the rigged election. I’m sure they are discussing it behind the scenes. Still, I wanted to just reach into my computer and scream at them, “Been keepin’ up with current events any, lately, pal??????!!!!!!!!” But we need to come out of our good little corner and take to the streets. The DNC will get involved, after we make the first move. But we must be the gadfly. And we must not listen to anyone who tells us, “We’ve heard your MESSAGE and we’ll take it from here. Now simmer down.”

[breadandwine]

114. You're a boomer—kind of heavy to think about it.

The Democratic baby boomer generation needs to teach the Democratic youngins how to protest. Back in the 60s it was a lot more intense. Like John Kerry protesting the war and sticking their necks out. Man, people back then had guts. And they didn't come up with excuses for why it was too late, already been tried or wouldn't work. They just kept at it, marching and marching and marching. And the War in Vietnam ended years, maybe decades earlier than it would have if they hadn't done all that marching.

[Castilleja]

115. Kick

:thumbsup:

[northamericancitizen]

116. Keep on Kicking

[breadandwine]

117. FLASH BULLETIN! Blogger calls march on Fox NOW!

Spread this around and kick it —

The above blogger has now posted a new blog with an extremely detailed, specific call to protest the rigged election AND the suppression of the truth ABOUT the rigged election by Fox News — a combined event mass march protest to be held in New York City — AT — Fox headquarters on 6th Avenue —

Main protest chant —

“Rupert Murdoch, tell the truth! Fascists rigged the voting booth!”

Nobody thinks of marching against a news organization in the streets. This is going to be a shot heard round the world.

Very comprehensive protest plan with travel details, the works —

See his new blog on this,

“A Call To March On Fox —

For refusing to tell the truth about the rigged election!” —

http://acalltomarchonfox.blogspot.com/

Tremendously detailed comprehensive blog —

It gives the exact location in New York City of all of Rupert Murdoch’s empire, New York Post, Fox News, News Corporation (Murdoch’s big parent company — it owns almost everything else he’s got) — all of that — it’s all in a single building on 6th Avenue between 47th Street and 48th Street in mid-Manhattan. Murdoch’s own office is in the building too. We can be chanting against him right outside his window. All their offices are not on very high floors either — as low as the second floor — they’ll see and hear us and have to pass us on the way in. All those blow-hard Fox talking heads lying about the election — we’ll be in direct shouting matches with them as they come and go. And Fox itself is on the SECOND Floor. How good is their studio soundproofing in there? Everybody at Fox is going to be bitching that they can’t get any work done. There’s no way they can hush this up.

Since it’s a vicious circle — news organizations like Fox suppress our protests, making them seem futile, therefore the proposal is to combine objectives and protest Fox AND the rigged election TOGETHER right outside Murdoch’s building and tie the two evils together — “Murdoch suppresses the truth about the rigged election!” — and invite other New York news organizations, many of whom DETEST Murdoch, to cover it. (You didn’t know New York news people and news executives hate Murdoch? Blog goes into that a lot.)

Blog has many links to anti-Murdoch resources and video of Bill O’Reilly telling everybody to shut up, over and over. What a sewer rat! Right on camera! He looks drunk in one of the film clips. Jack Daniels? And he’s on camera saying it’s the duty of “all loyal Americans to shut up.” The video nails him good — and Fox. Blog gives other video links too.

But the idea is to put it all together, to protest and denounce Fox outside their offices for leading the COVER-UP of the election heist. It’s a shot across the bow to the rest of the media that they better start telling the truth about the election, or they’ll get protests like the one at Fox. All the national news media are based in Manhattan. They can’t say this protest was too out of the way to get to.

Blog also has links to downloadable anti-Fox flyers, petitions and other resources against Fox that could be distributed at the protest march.

Blog goes into tremendous detail about the strategy, the advantages of starting protests in New York as opposed to other cities (huge liberal population would augment people coming from out of town), and it’s the news media capital of the world. Very friendly terrain. New York Democratic congressmen are demanding investigation of the stolen election. No rednecks in the population or the government, no paranoid security apparatus like you have in D.C.

Blog includes complete guide to using New York subways with downloadable maps, how to get from Amtrak’s Penn Station to the march, how to get from the airports to the march.

Let’s make it happen!

Keep kicking so everyone will hear of this!

[GetTheRightVote]

118. I have been messaging about this all week, I am ready to join forces

with all who would defy this adminstration its attempts to derail us as a democracy/Republic.

[northamericancitizen]

119. WOW !! If I had money

I would join you. Instead I am planning to go to Ottawa on the 30th. I want bushy to know that we hate him and everything that he stands for.

Lise

[Cheswick2.0]

122. “Rupert Murdoch, tell the truth! Fascists rigged the voting booth!”

Love it. Hit the streets.

[morgan2]

127. honestly protesting fox is laughable

what do they care? Protest ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN, MSNBC... Protesting fox is useless, you think anyone inside fox is gonna be suddenly realize how unfair they've been?

[breadandwine]

129. Morgan, read the blog.

Morgan, protesting Fox is blogger Ari Cohen's idea. If you are down on this, why did you declare in post 126, "Ari Cohen for DNC chair."? Do you know what we're talking about here? There are two blogs being discussed on this thread, both by the same blogger, Ari Cohen. Instead of praising him and then trashing his ideas, why not read what he wrote in the two blogs?

Obviously, protesting Fox is not about getting them to turn over a new leaf out of the goodness of their blushing little hearts. But if you read the blog you would know that some people at Fox have left and spilled the beans about how bad Fox is. They did this on camera in a new documentary film. So obviously the walls CAN crack. And pressure helps in that regard.

This is also about firing a shot across the bow of the media generally and pressuring them all to tell the truth about the rigged election. And we want to do it with Fox because the evidence of Fox's distortion of professional journalism is so strong. If you had read the blogger's first blog, which talks about the malevolence of the media and vast right wing conspiracy, you would understand all this. This is about PRESSURE, making a stink, forcing the establishment as a whole, and not merely Fox, to squirm over the way we know they are suppressing the truth. Marching on Fox (see my post 117 and the blogger's blog, http://acalltomarchonfox.blogspot.com/ ) is very useful, because there are a lot of media in New York that detest Murdoch (you would know this if you read the blog) and the blog presents ways to get them to cover the protest, even though it is about both Fox and the rigged election. We want to use this to get attention for our rage and fury over the rigged election and its ENABLERS, Fox among them.

And by the way, protests in the street against Fox can also make some investors squirm. Remember Donald Trump? He dumped his classy Czech model wife Ivana in favor of some pathetic "Georgia Peach." As soon as he lost the aura of class for his disgraceful behavior, immediately creditors stopped trusting him and began demanding he pay up debts. Suddenly, a significant part of his empire collapsed because it was built on image as much as hard assets. This is how much of the business world works. The corporate world believes in "leveraging" its financial power. Which means if you lose the aura of class and prowess suddenly creditors get nervous and stop being patient with you. A lot of what goes on in the business world is like a house of cards in this respect and it can come crashing down. Believe me, a huge march on Murdoch is going to make the Wall Street analysts who rate Murdoch's companies squirm. Fox is already under assault, there's an FTC complaint against them by MoveOn.

But in any case, this is about more than just Fox. It is about using Fox to demonstrate the corruption and lying of the media as a whole, with Fox being the example with the most well-documented evidence. If we make a stink about Fox, who other news organizations in New York hate anyway, many will start thinking about telling the truth more about the election to cover their rear.

Since when does protesting something or someone depend on their having a malleable, changeable, tender heart? Back in the 60s protesters weren't deterred by the nay sayers saying it wouldn't work. Or take the freedom riders down south who were risking their lives protesting segregation in the face of the most vicious racists. Do you think they decided, welp, segregationists won't change so why bother? They were up against the meanest rottenest people, knew full well who and what they were up against, did it anyway, kept at it without being a quitter and eventually segregation came to an end. A lot of change happens in America by confrontation and not by glumly saying "it probably won't work in five minutes so why bother."

[morgan2]

131. the idea of him for dnc chair

was just saying we need someone who thinks like this. It wasnt completely serious.

As for protesting Fox, I stand by my assertion that it is a joke. Its just my opinion yes, but I believe it is the least effective media outlet to protest against. Protesting Fox, and having the other media outlets cover it, only adds to the assertion of a left wing media bias at the other news outlets. Fox is the worst offender, but 90% of the us already thinks Fox is right wing. Protesting ABC/CBS/NBC would have a much larger effect, and might wake some people up to the fact that they are in the right wing's pocket also.

[PrisonerLazy8]

185. Why just FOX?

I don't see ANY news orgs trying to "tell the truth about the rigged election". Why not march on them all?

[terip64]

120. kick

[breadandwine]

121. We have to march NOW! See post 117.

March on Fox and rigged election together in New York. Fox is the leading ENABLER of the rigged election. The power structure couldn't POSSIBLY get away with the obscenity of November 2nd without the blow hard propaganda meister cover-up artists of Fox et al. Get involved with the mass protest against Fox and the rigged election in New York — against Fox for not telling the truth about the rigged election! See more at post 117.

Help keep this thread kicked.

[LadyinRed]

123. Kick

from another boomer.

[Sydnie]

125. Kick from another Boomer

and am I ready -- let's do it!

[morgan2]

126. Ari Cohen for DNC chair

[Turn CO Blue]

128. Kick. I can't stand Faux News.

[Karenca]

130. Kick nt

[AmerDem]

132. Great stuff!

finally organization has started!

[pauldp]

133. Yes March!

NO PAPER TRAIL=NO DEMOCRACY!

THIS IS NO BULLSHIT PEOPLE!

YOUR COUNTRY NEEDS YOU IN IT'S DARKEST HOUR!

If you've got a patriotic bone in your body, call your local organizations, call your friends, find out what the rules are in your town for peaceful protest. Strap on a drum or grab some pots and pans and PROTEST NOW!

We marched in my town (San Luis Obispo CA) last Saturday and we are planning another one for this weekend. People can dismiss emails and websites. It's harder to dismiss drums echoing off the buildings of their town.

Black Friday - the biggest shopping day of the year, would be a great symbolic day to proclaim our intention to reclaim America for the people. Shake off the fog of consumerism!

We are not the media, we are not political parties.

WE ARE THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA AND WE WANT OUR COUNTRY BACK!!

[Solitaire]

134. when is the protest?

I'll be happy to be there if I can find -when- it is.

[pauldp]

135. Do You Live in SLO?

[Solitaire]

136. I live in New York City

[pauldp]

137. I think the NY info is in the link

http://wholeworldiswatching.blogspot.com /


there is some contact info on the site

[Solitaire]

138. thank you :)

[Solitaire]

139. ugh, I'm at work. I just want to know where and when

[breadandwine]

144. New York March on Fox info—

Here—

A Call To March On Fox
For refusing to tell the truth about the rigged election!

http://acalltomarchonfox.blogspot.com/

[truehawk]

141. I agree we must MARCH

[Yuugal]

142. count me in! nt

[clintonlover]

145. YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!

we should organize in every state and march to the state capitol on the same day--demanding voter reform.

[pauldp]

146. Kick!

[clintonlover]

147. Hey pauldp

Is KICK good? I'm new here....

[pauldp]

148. Yah! Good Yah

[breadandwine]

150. Fox in New York is center stage.

Note the following info from the blog ( http://acalltomarchonfox.blogspot.com/ )
A Call To March On Fox
For refusing to tell the truth about the rigged election


Observe:

Where is Murdoch's New York Post located?

1211 Avenue of the Americas (also called 6th Avenue)
(between 47th St. and 48th St.)
New York, NY 10036

Now, okay, wait a minute. Where is Fox News Channel located?

1211 Avenue of the Americas (also called 6th Avenue)
(between 47th St. and 48th St.)
New York, NY 10036



Hm. How bout that. Same building.

Okay, now wait a sec.



Where is News Corporation, Murdoch's big company that owns nearly all of his assets?



1211 Avenue of the Americas (also called 6th Avenue)
(between 47th St. and 48th St.)
New York, NY 10036


Hm! Same building!



Okay, wait a minute now. Where is RUPERT MURDOCH'S office?????? Riddle me THAT, Batman!


1211 Avenue of the Americas (also called 6th Avenue)
(between 47th St. and 48th St.)
New York, NY 10036


Same building!

In other words, if we protest at that one building, politically we have hit the jackpot. More evil lurks per square foot in that building than probably anywhere else around except maybe for locations that require high security clearance. Fox is actually on the SECOND Floor. We assemble a big protest outside and they're going to see and hear us, run into us on the way in and out of the building. How good is the soundproofing of their studios? Second Floor? Man, was that stupid of them. We could be running into all the big Murdoch honchos there. We can be shouting at them, engaging them. There will be people inside bitching that they can't get any work done. It'll be hilarious. And New York is a total vicious citidel of gossip. Lots of news people and columnists in New York haven't been duped by Murdoch the way the rest of the country has, they hate the way Murdoch muscled into New York and ruined journalism for them. They hate his guts. A lot of them would want to cover a protest against him. They're in direct competition with him. All the other papers are in competiton with the New York Post and they think Murdoch has no class. And they hate the New York Post because the Post is stealing business from them not by doing legitimate journalism but by running gratiuitous leering sensational headlines like, "Headless Man Found In Topless Bar!" That was an actual Post headline. Man, do they hate Murdoch. He ruined their profession and they've never forgiven him. The New York media would LOVE to see Murdoch taken down a peg.

[Jo March]

149. Date and time - I didn't see one but I'm ready to march

I will go and I will make signs and buy bottled water and sleep on the ground (which I HATE to do).

Just tell me when and where. FOX HQ? Fine. When? Somewhere else? Fine. When and where?

[breadandwine]

155. Fox HQ

When — to be determined.

See

http://acalltomarchonfox.blogspot.com/

for all details so far & address and travel info. Fox, New York Post, Murdoch's News Corporation (the "mother ship" — it owns nearly all his other assets) and even Murdoch's own personal office are all located in the same building. Fox is actually on the Second Floor — how good is the soundproofing of their studios???????

[Jo March]

166. I will keep checking in then because I'll definately schedule

the time off.

I'll have hubby come to but have him stay behind in case I need bailing out of jail. ;)

[Avalux]

151. I'm Ready

"For Our Children". :bounce:

[breadandwine]

154. March on Fox & Votergate In New York!

Note to new visitors to this thread—

New blog now by the same blogger we're discussing has very detailed plans for a mass march in New York combining denunciation of both the rigged election and the Bush shill media that cover it up, a double wammy—

A Call To March On Fox —
For refusing to tell the truth about the rigged election!

http://acalltomarchonfox.blogspot.com/

See also Post 117 for explanation.
Read the blog! Tremendously detailed plans for march including travel info and how to get from airport or Amtrak station to the march location.

March to target Rupert Murdoch's empire and the rigged election in the same march—

"Rupert Murdoch, tell the truth! Fascists rigged the voting booth!"

See the new blog — "A Call To March On Fox —
For refusing to tell the truth about the rigged election!
"

Again — read this and share it with others!

http://acalltomarchonfox.blogspot.com/

Keep this thread kicked at all times or aliens with acid for blood will enter through the escape hatch!

[DireStrike]

156. IT SHOULD BE NBC, NOT FOX!

ABCNNBCBS - fox - it's the same thing!

March against fox, fox takes some heat, gets some publicity... they love this stuff!

March on NBC... it implies that fox is further to the right than NBC, and that even the "mainstream" media are biased.

[grasswire]

157. I agree that spending effort to protest FOX is futile

Why not spend that effort in the hopes of influencing CNN, which has a brand new news executive? Also, CNN is world-wide. Also, wouldn't it be just ducky to holler at Wolf Blitzer and Judy Woodmuff?

[faithnotgreed]

160. agree. nbc or other network but NOT fox

[goclark]

188. We need to do something at FOX

Maybe not as much as CNN but if we let FOX off the hook, they will think they have bullied us.

[RedTail Wolf]

158. Still writing organizations

trying to find someone with enough clout and cash to back a HUGE non violent march on Washington to protest Bush and all that he and his ilk represent. A 60's style street revolution with contained anger and in the way Martin Luther King taught us; non violent,and peaceful. I think this might bring about a cultural and political change in this country deeper than any other political movement in this country ever. We need this, we need it desperately, and we need it soon.
We need masses of people in the streets showing that we have a deep love for this country, and each other. We must stand and show that we will not sit by and let our freedoms be taken away and our Constitution trashed.
This is the single most important thing that a citizen can do for the country and this should be tops on every progressives list of things to do!

March, Patriots against Bush and his policies. It's time people. Brother's and Sister's it's time!

RedTail Wolf

[kk897]

179. Those of you who were in the March on Washington in the 60s

How was it organized? What do we need to do that we're not doing? I think this would be a different sort of march, because it's coming from... the... BLOGOSPHERE, but I would think the same principles would apply. We don't have a Dr. King now, though, which might make a difference. But still, how did the word get out? How was it decided when it would be and where it would be?

Maybe it should be coordinated with the people who did the Million Man March (I know, I wouldn't be thrilled about getting mixed up with Farakahn's ilk... and, is he even still around? Haven't heard from those guys in a while... but the fact is, they were able to mobilize the very people who have been most dreadfully affected by the stealing of the election).

Just some random thoughts and questions, here... I'm ready for some action, myself. There's a rally in Columbus on December 4 at the Statehouse, and I'll be there. But that's just a drop in the bucket.

[pauldp]

161. SET A DATE!

Soon I hope.

[northamericancitizen]

162. kick

[masaka___]

164. Yes, set a date...

and I might just fly out to New York to visit my friends and do some protesting.

[Pachamama]

173. I think it should be January 6th, 2005 - the day Congress meets to certify

and count the results of the election...if one "studies" the rules of the Constitution, the elected Representatives in the joint session have the opportunity to vote and oppose the results.

Inaugural day is too late...and I do think that our elected representatives might think twice if millions of people around the country came to march and protest outside the Capitol...

[breadandwine]

163. Yawn, blah, blah, blah.

The plan is to target Fox and its affiliates in New York. Washington is going to get hit with protests ANYWAY on inauguration day but they will NOT get much publicity. The Washington media are all Beltway shills who ignored the last inauguration protests. All the reporters and stringers in Washington are terrified of losing their friendship with their sources in government if they tick them off. Washington thus has a SYSTEMIC problem as a viable protest site as long as the right wing dominates government in Washington. Reporters in Washington can’t give progressives their due or they incur “supplier problems.”

Pay attention, read the blog—
“A Call To March On Fox
For refusing to tell the truth about the rigged election”
http://acalltomarchonfox.blogspot.com/
“Rupert Murdoch, tell the truth! Fascists rigged the voting booth!”

New York is where Fox is headquartered. New York is the news media capital of the world, not Washington. No news organization in New York can claim they couldn’t make it because it was too far from them. Every reporter in New York is one short subway trip from a march on Fox. New York news people hate Murdoch’s living guts and would love to take him down a peg.

Pay attention, read the blog—
“A Call To March On Fox
For refusing to tell the truth about the rigged election”
http://acalltomarchonfox.blogspot.com/
“Rupert Murdoch, tell the truth! Fascists rigged the voting booth!”

News people in New York thus have a vested interest in covering a protest at Murdoch’s palace in New York. News people in Washington have a vested interest in NOT covering a march on Washington.

Pay attention, read the blog—
“A Call To March On Fox
For refusing to tell the truth about the rigged election”
http://acalltomarchonfox.blogspot.com/
“Rupert Murdoch, tell the truth! Fascists rigged the voting booth!”

The target is Fox. Those proposing another news target can’t even agree on this thread. “Make that NBC!” “No make it CBS!” “No make it ABC!”

Why? Because all those news organizations have been shameless BUT only Fox is in a class by itself. For unity of the movement we need a target everyone hates really hates. That’s Fox. Even other news organizations in New York hate Fox and Murdoch.

Pay attention, read the blog—
“A Call To March On Fox
For refusing to tell the truth about the rigged election”
http://acalltomarchonfox.blogspot.com/
“Rupert Murdoch, tell the truth! Fascists rigged the voting booth!”

You don’t just start a campaign against the media by attacking all media. You’ll wind up having them all boycott you even more. Bev Harris just got on Aaron Brown on CNN. Just briefly but it was a crack in the wall of silence. Attack all news organizations at once and you’ll lose the chance to get them to admit the truth. Their defenses will go up even more.

But target Fox and the media will cover it because they don’t see it as an attack on them personally. That’s exactly what we want — an attack that won’t shoot their defenses through the outer stratosphere before we get the big point across — that there is media bias against covering the crime of the century — the rigged election. We want a breakthrough, not a brick wall. That means protesting Fox. In New York. Where Fox is based. This isn’t just about blowing off steam. It’s about strategy.

Fox is unique. Movies and documents have been made by MoveOn.org proving that Fox is biased. MoveOn has run ads comparing Fox to Pravda. They did not compare ABC to Pravda. In the war of words we are not starting from scratch if we go after Fox. There is already a whole progressive activist infrastructure organized against Fox, not against CBS. Everyone is psyched for a protest of Fox. Not the Associated Press. Everyone hates Fox’s Bill O’Reilly. Not Peter Jennings. If we focus on NBC, progressives will immediately ask, “Why didn’t you target on Fox?????” From the blog, see this link, a MoveOn.org video clip trashing Fox’s Bill O’Reilly for telling everyone to shut up on camera. Watch it, it’s hilarious and burns your blood — that’s what we need to get people to show up at the march —

http://cdn.moveon.org/data/ShutUp_Final_BbandHi.mov

Peter Jennings doesn’t tell everyone to shut up on camera, and Ted Koppel, also of ABC, went after the Swift Boat liars savagely on Nightline. Only Fox has a unique position as having dragged professional journalism into the mud like no other.

This is a quadruple wammy: Fox, its parent company News Corporation (which owns most of Murdoch’s other news organizations), Murdoch’s New York Post and even Rupert Murdoch’s own personal office are all located in the same single building in mid-Manhattan. There is more media evil per square foot at that location than anywhere else. It’s the perfect place to protest the media. See the blog for the exact address and which Murdoch companies are on which floors.

This is not about changing Fox’s blushing little hearts and if you think that is the objective of this protest against Fox, you don’t know what protest is. We’re not doing this to give Fox “therapy” or “positive thinking seminars.” Wake up. This is about rattling the wall of silence in a way that is STRATEGIC. It’s the OTHER news organizations that could take the hint, provided we attack Fox, not them. We’re not trying to “reform” Fox. We hope we DAMAGE Fox. We hope we demonstrate to OTHERS how little class they have. Creditors don’t like trouble. Creditors want a corporation to have respect, prestige, class, and what is called in the business world, corporate “good will.” MoveOn.org already has an FTC complaint against Fox. Ads against Fox. Movies against Fox. Fox, Fox, Fox. Create enough tumult against Fox and creditors and stock analysts will get antsy and sick of the “trouble” and start losing patience with Fox. Why do business where there’s trouble? OTHER news organizations will take this as a signal that you can only go so far in Bush-shilling. How many people in Colorado are going to come cross-country to protest the New York Daily News, one of the most boring papers in the country? And yet the Daily News has always had a bigger circulation than the New York Post, one of the Murdoch organizations at the building where we will be protesting.

By the way, Murdoch’s New York Post was just subpoenaed for its circulation records, on suspicion of lying about circulation to milk more money out of advertisers, which is illegal. The New York Post was subpoenaed, not ABC, not CBS, not NBC. If it is found that the Post lied about their circulation, which now seems likely, they could be forced to pay back TENS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS to advertisers. Once they start hemorrhaging money the parent company, Murdoch’s News Corporation, will start coughing up dough to bail them out, and will then start pressuring the Post to get the money from elsewhere — by squeezing the Post’s unions. Once THAT hits you got labor problems. It’s all one big house of cards that could come crashing down.

The last thing they need is protests against them. It just adds to the sense of turmoil that creditors and investors don’t like. The other news organizations in the city hate Murdoch’s living guts and if we start protesting there the other news organizations will start a feeding frenzy with headlines like “Trouble In Murdoch’s Empire?” They’ll pile on. We are the straw that could break the camel’s back.

And all this will take place in New York, the ultimate American city for protests, with a long heritage of huge anti-war and labor protests going back ages.

ONLY NEW YORK has the largest population in the country, perfect for getting crowds to the protest before out-of-towners even show up — a guaranteed local population to draw from.

ONLY NEW YORK has a huge LIBERAL population, unlike a lot of more conservative cities.

ONLY NEW YORK has a population twice the size of the next largest city, Los Angeles.

ONLY NEW YORK has a huge population that can all get to the march without owning a car, because of New York’s excellent and vast mass transit, a subway station walking distance from virtually every location in the city and every location in Manhattan. A blindfolded monkey throwing darts at a map of Manhattan will always pick a spot that is a five-minute walk from a subway station, and all the subway lines are interconnected underground with no need to pay a second fare to change lines.

ONLY NEW YORK has a population FOURTEEN TIMES bigger than the population of Washington D.C.

ONLY NEW YORK has a unique mix of gobs of liberal celebrities, Democratic congressmen who are already on record saying the election was a fraud and two powerhouse gutsy senators — Hillary Clinton who said there was a “vast right wing conspiracy” and Chuck Schumer who had the guts to call a Republican, Al D’Amato, a liar in every ad he ran. Schumer was just appointed head of the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee. He has a big mouth, he’s not afraid of anybody and he could get involved. If not, our protest in New York could still influence him to make an issue of the stolen election with the other senators and senate candidates he will be working with in his new role. That, BY ITSELF is a reason to make the protest in New York.

How many senators and congressmen does Washington D.C. have? Washington D.C. residents can’t even vote for senator or congressman. Washington D.C. cowers under the shadow of a right wing Republican federal government.

ONLY NEW YORK had huge protests this past summer against the GOP convention. All the participating groups in that protest know the terrain, got experience protesting in New York, learned the layout of the city, where to get food, lodging, how to survive for days here. Logistically they are all ready to do a protest in New York, they did it before in the recent past. Those groups are a ready reservoir of organizational activity ready to do it again if the venue is New York. New York is a natural for them.

Washington D.C. is on the edge of the South. How many Southerners want to protest the rigged election? New York is in the liberal northeast. Even outside New York State you have state after state a short Amtrak train ride away where droves of liberal voters would just love to come down to New York and join the protest — Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Maine, Vermont (Howard Dean country).

What’s Washington D.C. got nearby? Maryland, home of the National Security Agency, spy agency, biggest employer in the whole state of Maryland. On the other side of the Patomac is Virginia, home of the CIA.

Let’s cut out the wild goose chases. New York is the absolute best place in the country for a big huge protest and we DON’T want to dissipate our forces.

But if you really want to, remember: Topeka, Kansas beckons. Baluchistan is calling…..

[Sleepless In NY]

165. you want attention? Try Ohio or Florida

Why isn't anything happening in Ohio or Florida? I dont see people angry or marching and this would truly lend legitimacy to a claim of a "rigged election". If it's not coming out of these states, I dont think another march in NY is going to do anybody any good. It's too removed from the problems. Start it locally first.

[breadandwine]

167. Sleepless In NY, you yourself answered your question.

You asked, "Why isn't anything happening in Ohio or Florida? " When was the last time you heard of a huge mass march of hundreds of thousands of progressives or Democrats in — Ohio??????? And if you do it in Florida you will have major hassles with Jeb Bush and GOP judges who will try to hinder the march, refuse to grant march permits or whatever they can get away with. The proof is in the pudding. Big protests — DO — happen in NEW YORK. It wasn't only in Ohio and Florida that the election was rigged but all over the country. Otherwise the exit polls would not have shown Kerry with a lead in the popular vote NATIONALLY. This means the whole country was rigged. Votes were fiddled with all over.

It was not Ohio that was robbed. It was not Florida that was robbed. It was not even the Democrats that were robbed. It was ALL AMERICANS THAT WERE ROBBED ALL OVER AMERICA.

Your argument that the protest has to be in Ohio is like saying, "Welp, the black vote was suppressed, but I'm not black, so it doesn't affect me...."

ALL AMERICANS WERE ROBBED!

Not just Ohioans!

ALL AMERICANS WERE ROBBED!
ALL AMERICANS WERE ROBBED!
ALL AMERICANS WERE ROBBED!


The key is not to protest in a place like Ohio which is not exactly a hotbed of outcry. The key is to protest where WE ARE STRONG and can get BIG CROWDS and also where the media are centered, both of which happen to be in New York. You say you don't think another march in New York will do any good. The march being proposed in the blog (read it!— http://acalltomarchonfox.blogspot.com/ ) is NOT just another march in New York! It is a march on Fox! This is a big deal! It's new. People don't usually march on news organizations. There's a strategy here. Read post 163. The whooooole thing.

Read the blog.
Read the blog.
Read the blog.
Read the blog.
Read the blog.

By the way, why do you not call yourself "Sleepless In Ohio"? Just asking.

[ChiciB1]

189. OKAY... I'm In Florida

Ya'll come on down! I would absolutely LOVE to run up to Tallahassee and check little brother out!! This IS GOOD! This I WILL DO!!

Green Eggs & Ham... Sam I Am! WHATEVER! Ready Freddy! This chick's sitting on her nest down here in Sarasota waiting to FLY!

PROTEST! FLORIDA, someone help me! GOTTA DO THIS ONE!

[AmerDem]

168. Let's get this moving, start writing ...

and telling everyone you know. I personally have written many blogs and web sites to get this as much attention as possible. This protest is the single greatest thing we can do ( and NEED to do) to get the E-Voting fraud story to the top of page one.

[gorbal]

169. My first question:When?

My second: Can I hitch a ride with anyone?

[AmerDem]

170. they are still working on the details

From everything i've read, they are trying to get support from as many organizations as possible to help fund and support this massive protest. As the powers that be continue to work on the specifics the least we can do is let as many people,blogs,news outlets and anyone willing to listen know that a major protest is being worked on. The more people we get to start talking about this the better chance we have in making it work.

[breadandwine]

171. If you haven't seen it, watch this O'Reilly clip——

http://cdn.moveon.org/data/ShutUp_Final_BbandHi.mov

It's from MoveOn.org, mentioned in the above blog on marching in New York against Fox for playing a leading role in supressing the truth about the rigged election ( http://acalltomarchonfox.blogspot.com/ ).
It shows Fox's Bill O'Reilly telling ALL OF AMERICA to

"SHUT UP."

and

"KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT"

(Direct quotes.)

Download it. Save it. Watch it over and over.

Once you've seen that &#*&^ SOB O'Reilly telling YOU to

SHUT UP

you'll know we have to show up at Fox and protest and nail those lousy SOBs.

[DoYouEverWonder]

174. Well, I hope you have more success with this idea

than you did with that 9-11 People's Commission that you were promoting a while back.

[GetTheRightVote]

177. Yes, I will march by your side, yet I will march alone if need be

----- never again will I trust this government not to throw my vote away, never again will I trust these elected puppets to protect my vote, never again will I not march on lost rights, such as my vote.

I am going to march all over downtown Wash, D.C. this weekend and go on and on about the stolen election, even if I am alone it will make me feel so much better about everything .... I can't wait to see the looks on people's faces when I walk by with my sign. I am strong, I am an American, I have rights no matter what they say, I will be free, even if it is just me, I will march.

[gorbal]

181. If anyone had details do share

I think waiting for the inagural might be a tad too late:(

[breadandwine]

257. I DID have success and it wasn't a "people's commission" —

As I said over and over and over and over back then — listening helps — it wasn’t a proposal for a private “people’s commission.” It wasn’t about the people doing it on their own in that proposal. It was a proposal for Democratic LEGISLATORS on CAPITOL HILL to semi-OFFICIALLY set up hearings on GOP evils, informally. It is simply preposterous to think that 49 or even now 45 Democratic senators have no power and my proposal showed how they could utilize it. Without being in the majority they wouldn’t get approval for subpoena power but that doesn’t prevent watchdogs from testifying at such hearings — people who WANT to testify. (Subpoenas are only necessary to force to appear people who DON’T want to testify — BS artists like Condoleezza Rice who aren’t going to tell us much anyway and would merely try to pull the wool over everyone’s eyes and hog the airwaves with right wing media approval.)

Please see my post #224 — Senate Democrats have now — finally — done exactly what I proposed and will be holding regular hearings on the Hill on GOP evils. It’s the new Democratic Senate leadership that is doing this and may be the result of the departure of Daschle. But it’s very good news.

If anything, this shows that my efforts were not in vain.

The issue now is that there is an unelected SWAMP THING sitting in the Oval Office and his lack of election and lack of legitimate authority is more important than all the petty demands and ideas on tangential issues and wild goose chases that people are yammering about and dreaming up. Like how we “desperately need” to boycott United Parcel Service because they do business in Myanmar — which would only put good progressives back in the Stone Age.

The rigged election is all about LEGITIMACY. Everything else that is wrong with the Bush administration and everything that needs to be fought all falls under this overriding issue — their utter lack of legitimate authority. The election was rigged. This is the ultimate issue of our times and ultimately we will prevail.

[Liberaltarian]

191. where were you all last time?

a lot of us marched on coronation day 2001, but most people just let it go.
let someone else do the marching this time- i learned MY lesson.

[breadandwine]

192. For those checking out this thread for the first time —

Read post 190 for an introduction.

[Oak2004]

193. Just an observation here

Every act, large and small, well planned or poorly thought out, is a contribution to the cause.

There will be many demonstrations, not just one. Support 'em all.

This is a movement, not an organization. It's hopeless to try to get a movement to "agree" to anything. People will do what they want to do. If you have a good idea, put it together and get it out. If you like an idea, back it. And whatever you do, wherever you are, turn off the computer for a bit and organize in your neighborhood.

[breadandwine]

194. Oak, you said,

“There will be many demonstrations, not just one. Support ‘em all.”

All what?

I don’t see any mass marches against the rigged election, do you? And the few minor outcries are being ignored in no small part because they are scattered.

That’s why we’re talking about a specific plan.

People going in all directions, as you praise, is not a march.

It’s a vacation.

We need more than glib comments, flip statements and pop insta-truths.

You said, “Every act, large and small, well planned or poorly thought out, is a contribution to the cause.”

Oh really?

Even if “poorly thought out”? By that trite pop wisdom, Ralph Nader did a good thing in 2000 when he ran his own race and helped elect George W. Bush. And yet past Naderite Mark Green said, “It’s not right for Ralph to run.”

We are discussing a very shrewd, detailed plan and strategy for breaking through the media wall of silence. Others failed because they didn’t have a strategy.

“A Call To March On Fox
For refusing to tell the truth about the rigged election”—

http://acalltomarchonfox.blogspot.com/

Read it.

Movements against tyranny don’t succeed without discipline. If you don’t know that you know nothing about movements.

People are demanding to get beyond pat generalities and get practical.

Not to praise his ideological system or anything, but Mao defeated a regime in China against all odds because of his Long March. Do you think he would have succeeded if every other day he had woken up and said, “I dunno. Today I think we’ll go off in some other direction.” By the way, during the Long March Mao’s army had to cross a chain bridge over a treacherous river — a chain bridge on which all the planks had been deliberately removed. Thousands dared all and made it. Seventeen fell to their deaths. They also had to ascend snow-covered Himalayan mountains in Tibet during which Lin Piao had to have both his legs amputated for frost bite. Mao himself was suffering from malaria during the Long March. But he, and they, kept at it.

Just a little lesson in stick-to-itiveness.

How could they have been so determined and disciplined? Because they regarded what they were fighting against as so evil and worth disciplining themselves against. Read the blogger’s previous blog (explored at the top of this thread), “The Whole World Is Watching! Tactics And Strategy: A Total Battle Plan For Democrats To Take Back America From The Vast Right Wing Conspiracy”—

http://wholeworldiswatching.blogspot.com

Read the whole thing and you’ll see what evil we’re really up against.

Also, at the time of that Long March Mao overcame political authority from a leader of the movement to become the indisputable head of the movement. The deposed leader had failed and been broadly condemned for dissipating efforts in multiple directions and thus not being strong anywhere, which had led to disaster prior to the Long March.

[Sleepless In NY]

195. breadandwine

Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner, been busy. I call myself "Sleepless in NY" because thats where I live, not Ohio. I hope you don't think I'm trying to discourage you, because I'm not, I just think that it's time for protests to come out of other areas besides NY.

You say voter fraud has occured every where, I've not heard of it occuring here, not saying it didn't, just haven't heard of it. What bothers me about this whole thing, is that in states where people do believe it has occurred, where there is proof, they are taking no action.

And frankly, I don't understand that attitude. They should be up in arms with their local officals.

Look, I don't know how many times I've heard how "angry" Florida was about the 2000 election. Yet, the people in that state went on to elect Jeb & his brother again. So where is the outrage? No reason they couldn't raise a fuss in their own state & I'm more than sure activists would have come and joined them there.

I have marched twice in NY, once, against going to war in Iraq & again, during the RNC convention. In the latter, protestors virtually stuck their faces in every camera, shouting "Fox Sucks" You could hear that chant, a city block long. But here's the problem, while CSPAN did cover it from start to finish, none of the other media oulets did. Oh, you get a few minutes of coverage on Cable, and a few more on our local news, then they move on. As with the protests against going to war in Iraq & the RNC, the media will always give the lowest count of the numbers of protestors, despite what the pictures show. They will correct it a few days later, quietly, when no one is paying attention. And truthfully, Fox has done nothing to change their programming, it still sucks, and is anything but "fair and balanced". Rush & O'Reilly still reign, despite their lack of "morality" with Fox Viewers too.

So I'm thinking, perhaps it's because it takes place in NY, the land of the "liberals" that causes the rest of the country to just ignore it? But what if it was coming out of a Red State? Perhaps the rest of the country would sit up and take notice? It might send a more powerful message.

And to be truthful, isn't it also the responsibility of those most effected by voter fraud to get on the ball in their own states? Can you imagine the impact if Ohioians or Floridians were now in the streets, demanding a recount? If it starts locally, it could always culminate in a larger demonstration in NY and DC, but at least it would look like its coming from them.

I hear alot on this board, about how there is no "Blue" or "Red" States, even when with the latter, the majority of their states votes went to bush. Thats why I think a protest coming out of a so called Red State might catch more media attention. Their claims of voter fraud might be taken more seriously.

I have never regretted protesting, because in a democracy voices must be heard. In NY it became very personal, a war in Iraq, while Bin Laden was given a free pass. Then with the RNC convention, we initally heard, that republicans had planned to go to Ground Zero during the convention, and the thought of that site, being used for politics, was unbearable to the majority of us. It's a sacred place. And unfortunatly we have learned, republicans have no respect for the dead. We couldn't keep them out of NY & politizing 9/11, but we did keep them from trampling on the dead & turning it into a circus and that was good enough for us. Mission accomplished, so to speak.

While I'm wondering about the inaction at a local level in some of these states effected by voter fraud, I'm also wondering about the inaction of the Democratic leadership. They aren't pushing this and I don't know why & it doesn't give me a good feeling. Do you know why we are seeing nothing out of Florida or Ohio, et al, or the Democrats?

Also don't assume protesting in NY will be an easy thing either. It's the start of the Christmas season & it's become a tradition, that greetings will be sent from bush in the form of another annual "terror alert". But then again, he's on pretty solid political ground, so maybe he'll take us off his "Christmas List". Oh, the shit we have had to put up with this guy, is nothing short of unbelievable.

Well, I wish you luck & keep us posted. Take care!

[breadandwine]

196. You haven’t responded to anything, Sleepless.

Sleepless in NY, all you’ve done is repeat, as if by rote, your little demoralization head trip. If that’s how you feel don’t lay it on others while we’re trying to get something done. But let ME respond to what YOU said. You said,

“I hope you don't think I'm trying to discourage you.”

Yup. That’s what I think. You then say,

“because I'm not, I just think that it's time for protests to come out of other areas besides NY.”

We haven’t even gotten the New York protest going, we’ve only been talking about it less than a week and already you are trying to stop in on the flimsy excuse that you think that others should go first. You have now said, in your post, that you are from New York. And you call yourself “Sleepless in New York.” Just, people outside New York should do it, not you. Have a good sleep in New York. Some of us are willing to work hard to get this done.
You said,

“You say voter fraud has occured every where, I've not heard of it occuring here, not saying it didn't, just haven't heard of it.”

Sorry you weren’t informed. Randi Rhodes has been screaming on Air America Radio that the exit polls said the POPULAR VOTE NATIONALLY was won by Kerry. I said it too. So don’t say you didn’t hear it. I just told you. Kerry winning the national exit poll popular vote and then losing the official national popular vote can’t happen just by rigging two states. Even Ralph Nader is suing over New Hampshire and it was announced that this was a prelude to attempted suits in dozens of other states. All this is being talked about all over the internet. You then said,

“What bothers me about this whole thing, is that in states where people do believe it has occurred, where there is proof, they are taking no action. And frankly, I don't understand that attitude. They should be up in arms with their local officals.”

(Forgive me for including your spelling mistakes in quoting you exactly.)

I’ve already shown you that that’s a red herring. This is not the private concern of Ohio and Florida only. Besides, historically they have both voted Republican a fair number of times so why all the weeping and wailing that they are not leaping to the streets? Besides, neither state has huge cities like New York so that is a built-in impediment to assembling a large crowd. You are laying a demoralization trip. States with cities much smaller than New York are not leaping to protest in vast numbers, so THEREFORE you’re SO DEPRESSED, THEREFORE THE REST OF US ARE SUPPOSED TO GET DEPRESSED WITH YOU. You said,

“Look, I don't know how many times I've heard how "angry" Florida was about the 2000 election. Yet, the people in that state went on to elect Jeb & his brother again. So where is the outrage?”

Who says what Floridians really voted for since the vote was rigged? Such confusion in so few words. Firstly, many of the people in Florida who were disenfranchised in 2000 and 2004 are black. A certain very famous black leader has now said that we should accept the election results, thus putting a damper on that community. That leader has been accused repeatedly of being a government informant. He bailed out Governor Christie Todd Whitman by covering for her publicly when she was accused of paying to suppress the black vote in New Jersey. A certain other black leader was with him at the podium making the same statements, and that second black leader admitted to Mike McAllary in the New York Daily News that he was an FBI informer. He said he doesn’t do that anymore, blah blah. You then say,

“No reason they couldn't raise a fuss in their own state & I'm more than sure activists would have come and joined them there.”

You almost sound as if you’re saying, “Well, if you Democrats really want to protest, let some others do it. There’s no reason for YOU to get involved.” It sounds like an appeal to QUARANTINE the national scandal to a couple small states that have NOT had a huge past experience protesting. You then said,

“I have marched twice in NY, once, against going to war in Iraq & again, during the RNC convention. In the latter, protestors virtually stuck their faces in every camera, shouting "Fox Sucks" You could hear that chant, a city block long. But here's the problem, while CSPAN did cover it from start to finish, none of the other media oulets did.”

Man, I feel almost sorry for you for saying that. First of all, there are people among us who have marched in New York over and over for decades. Two times doesn’t make you an expert. You said C-Span covered the RNC protests from start to finish. What kina friggin planet are you living on? Non-stop coverage on C-Span and you’re COMPLAINING? That’s better than the October ’69 Moratorium Against the Vietnam War, the most successful anti-Vietnam War protest ever, which got all day coverage for just a single day but that was on a local TV station in New York, not a national network. Start to finish coverage on C-Span for protests at the RNC convention in 2004 and you’re complaining that the glass is half empty? Stop BELLYACHING! If we get even a fraction of that at Fox in New York we’ll be rejoicing because all we need to do is get the country to pay attention to four little words: “The election was rigged.” Once that is shouted on air, half the game is already over because we have denied Bush LEGITIMACY. Then the cat’s out of the bag. You said protesters nearly stuck their faces in the TV cameras screaming, “Fox sucks.” You’re complaining that this didn’t go over big? That’s vulgar. Media won’t easily cover vulgar where the President of the United States is visiting. You should have known that. Depending on the definition of “sucks” — let’s be honest, it’s vulgar — you are going to have TV producers who just won’t put that on the air. Some because they are right wing and don’t want that kind of language near the RNC. Others because they are liberal or even left wing and think it discredits critics of Bush. Still others wouldn’t include it because they rightly saw it as a sub-issue to the protests and therefore not central to news stories. Fox won’t be a sub-issue this time, and we won’t be using vulgar street language that makes us look like children. Note what the blog said about this, how important it was not to act or speak or use language that discredits the protest. The RNC protesters also put food coloring in the fountains around New York City. Do you know how foolish that was politically? How easy it would have been for the right wing to go into hysterics over that, USING that to say the protesters were acting irresponsible in an age of bio-terrorism and how one shouldn’t scare people like that since it forced some fountain owners to have to test the water for germs and so forth. This is why it is important to have a strategy and not just run around half-cocked. You should be very glad you got so much C-Span coverage while have such an undisciplined protest. That’s better than we got in the 60’s and 60’s protests eventually ended the Vietnam War. Then you say,

“Oh, you get a few minutes of coverage on Cable, and a few more on our local news, then they move on.”

Again, this shows you don’t understand protest dynamics. Why shouldn’t they move on? Do you think your protest is the only news in the universe? Again, stop bellyaching. I’ve been in protests all my life and I never once fantasized that the media were my “comrades.” You want more coverage? Protest more. Simple rule. And protest smart, not like the foolish way people protested at the RNC with no attention to the mindset of the reporters there. Putting “sucks” into a shout almost guarantees you’ll look like teenagers and the media won’t take you seriously. Then you said,

“As with the protests against going to war in Iraq & the RNC, the media will always give the lowest count of the numbers of protestors, despite what the pictures show.” They will correct it a few days later, quietly, when no one is paying attention.

You’re forgetting that they admitted the protest took place. Again that half-empty glass you’re bellyaching about. Bill Clinton used to call up reporters after they had screwed him. He would politely ask to go off the record. Then he would chew their heads off like a velociraptor, screaming his living guts out at them. Everyone knows that to get the media to be fair, you have to call them up when they are not and really yell at them and demand they show respect. There are countless cases of the media correcting stories when they got complaints. It’s part of the game we have to play. It’s part of the work we have to do to get attention. Again, stop complaining. Then you said,

“And truthfully, Fox has done nothing to change their programming, it still sucks, and is anything but "fair and balanced."

I’ve answered this repeatedly and you refuse to admit I did even as you bellyache that the media aren’t listening to YOU. So let me respond some more. Again, we’re not TRYING to change Fox and have no illusions that a Fascist like Murdoch will change. We are not planning to say “pretty please” to a fascist! We are not BEGGING. You haven’t read the blog or you’d understand the objective is different. I still haven’t heard you say whether you read the whole blog or not. Evidently you didn’t. Why? Is it radioactive? We are attempting to USE a protest of Fox to achieve two things: One, to get across the idea that there are biased news organizations and that people shouldn’t take Fox at its word. We want to knock down their respect, their prestige. (Incidentally, you don’t do that by saying the word “sucks.”) Loss of prestige is really important in the business world and can affect the patience of creditors and the ratings of stock and bond analysts. This can in turn send a message to OTHERS in the media. But we target Fox because we want to be sure the others in the media see we have a good case, and there is immense documented evidence against Fox. We want the other media to respect our charge and not be offended by it. There are others in the media who if we protested them it would immediately turn off reporters and alienate them unnecessarily. For instance, suppose we went after Ted Koppel. Problem is, Koppel spent a show going after the Swift Boat liars and really tore them to shreds. If we targeted Koppel other reporters would circle the wagons, think we weren’t fair, think we were being jerks and be just totally alienated by us. So we are not going after Koppel. We are going after Murdoch and his people and companies, like the sewer-mouthed Bill O’Reilly, Fox and New York Post — all in the same building where the protest will be outside. We want to knock them down a peg. We want to lower OTHERS’ opinion of Fox. We are NOT trying to get Fox to turn over a new leaf by the goodness of their blushing little hearts. How many times do I have to repeat that while you pretend you didn’t hear me the first time? Then you said,

“Rush & O'Reilly still reign, despite their lack of "morality" with Fox Viewers too.”

That’s a ridiculously naïve statement. No one is staging marches focusing against Rush or O’Reilly, so why should their brain dead ditto-heads stop forgiving them and apologizing for them? Where’s the pressure? You are assuming that with little or no outside protest or pressure all their brain-dead groupies will turn over a new leaf and hate Rush and Bill because of a little scandal? What planet are you living on? When people don’t want to face something, it requires pounding away at them to get them to look at what they don’t want to think about. You haven’t done that yet with O’Reilly. You seem to want immediate gratification for everything. You seem to think that after two demonstrations the whole world will instantly turn into peaches and cream just for you. Demonstrations and protests are about STRUGGLE. It takes time. All during the Vietnam War and the Civil Rights movement people despaired and said it wasn’t working. Once there was a Vietnam War. Now there isn’t. Once blacks had to sit in the back of a bus, couldn’t drink from the same fountain, get equal benefits and on and on. Their situation still needs a lot of improvement. But don’t say protests didn’t have a big effect. How old are you? Maybe you are too young to see how protest struggles ultimately prevailed. It wasn’t by complaining after two protests. By the way. At the RNC convention protests, did they aim water canons at you as they did down South to blacks during the Civil Rights movement? Then stop complaining. Were you expecting someone to give you a manicure and a kiss on the cheek during your two protests? Protest movements are about desperate struggle and pain and change doesn’t come easy. Get used to it instead of deciding to bug out and run after two seconds. Even the protest at the RNC did not focus on Rush and O’Reilly. The RNC protest was not about O’Reilly or Rush so why were you expecting their groupies to suddenly turn away from them? Do you think protesting and struggle is some shallow board game you can win in an hour? Everything you are saying just screams about a desire for immediate gratification. The world didn’t change for you after two measly protests and you’re weeping and wailing. Read what I wrote above in Post 194 about Mao and all the sacrifices he and his men made, the vast pain and struggle to achieve their aims while Mao was suffering from malaria and his men getting legs amputated for frostbite and dying crossing a chain bridge where all the planks had been removed. You don’t know what struggle is. You know what “I wanna feel good in two seconds” is. And what we are talking about here is a whole protest that from start to finish is focusing on Fox like a laser beam whereas the RNC protests did not. Then you said,

“So I'm thinking, perhaps it's because it takes place in NY, the land of the "liberals" that causes the rest of the country to just ignore it?”

Such whining! You yourself say that at the RNC protests you got start to finish coverage on C-Span — C-Span which is shown all over the country — but you are complaining that New York is too liberal and the rest of the country ignored it! If it was on C-Span, then people saw it all over the country! Obviously New York was not too liberal for C-Span! Which disproves your whole argument about New York being too liberal. Sorry, but it really sounds like you have something against New York. Then you said,

“But what if it was coming out of a Red State?”

It won’t be. Alabama just isn’t gonna do you any favors. I’m sorry you weren’t notified. Then you said,

“Isn't it also the responsibility of those most effected by voter fraud to get on the ball in their own states?”

You are saying it is their own problem and their own responsibility, so mind your own beeswax. Let me lay it on you Biblical-like: I am my brother’s keeper. All this whining about how it’s none of my business, so butt out. MY VOTE WAS STOLEN TOO BECAUSE THE ELECTION WAS STOLEN, GET IT? And the black vote was suppressed with all kinds of vicious measures and harassment. Should I not worry about that because I’m not black? When a black man’s vote is stolen, MY vote is stolen. GET IT? And before the election there was voter harassment and threats and stolen voter registrations months before the election in state after state, not just Ohio and Florida. There were Kerry signs being stolen in state after state. Some of this harassment, suppression, threats and stolen signs occurred months before Election Day. That’s all election rigging. And not just in two states. Then you said,

“Can you imagine the impact if Ohioians or Floridians were now in the streets, demanding a recount?”

There aren’t going to be huge protests there for a simple reason. In both states there is not one city with even one-fifth of the population of New York City. You sound as if you are almost PLEADING with us not to do it in New York — the city where you say C-Span gave start to finish protest coverage during the RNC convention. What are you afraid of? New York City has a population eleven times bigger than the largest city in all of Ohio. Where are you going to get the crowds in Ohio? Out of thin air? Do you think protests are created with Harry Potter’s magic wand while eating potato chips in front of your television? New York City also has a population 10.8 times the size of the largest city in Florida. What do you have against a big protest in New York? You also said protests at the RNC pressured and limited GOP attempts to visit and politicize ground zero. This is yet another accomplishment of a New York protest that you seem so determined to talk us out of. Then you said,

“Also don't assume protesting in NY will be an easy thing either. It's the start of the Christmas season & it's become a tradition, that greetings will be sent from bush in the form of another annual "terror alert."

Boy are you laying it on thick. Just begging and whining and pleading with us, excuse after excuse, not to protest in New York. If all the oceans were ink I do not think I could have come up with an excuse like that. Basically, “You can’t protest in New York! Christmas is coming!” I can not believe all your desperation about us not protesting in New York. Oh no! Not New York! Anything but THAT! Please, not New York! What, you think terror alerts won’t affect the whole country, just New York? Do you have the foggiest notion of what you are talking about? You are saying that we can’t protest in New York because maybe there could be, um, a terror alert! New Yorkers are too smart to be afraid of terror alerts. If you’re really a New Yorker you should know that. If you really know anything about New York, you know that New Yorkers were more laid back about 9/11 than a lot of other places in the country. If it had happened in Texas, everybody there would have been driving around with shotguns and axe handles. In New York, people mostly took it cool. Something big is always happening in New York since it is such a big city. As the blog mentioned (which you obviously haven’t read as you beg and plead with us not to do New York an not to do Fox which is based in New York) there are now tornados on rare occasion in New York (especially on the seaward New York borough of Staten Island) and New Yorkers just go, “uh-huh.” No one takes it personally since it’s such a big city so they don’t feel it happened to them. A tornado in Deadwood Gulch, Iowa would have people saying, “Dang! A tornado hit our ever-lovin’ blessed town! Dang, dang, dang!” You seem to be a lot more obsessed about a stupid color-coded terror alert than any smart New Yorker I ever met. Finally, in the end of your post you say of Bush,

“But then again, he's on pretty solid political ground.”

SAYS WHO? Man, have you got the wrong neurons firing off in your head. You really need to think that last statement over. Bush was “reelected” with a historically small reelection margin even according to the official, false vote tabulations. If nothing else our protests now over the rigged election can rob him of enough legitimacy to make him a lame duck and derail the worst of his draconian second term agenda.

[Sleepless In NY]

198. I think you have a comprehension problem

"You can’t protest in New York! Christmas is coming!” What is wrong with you????? Can't you read? Go back and slowly read what I DID say. Do you honestly think you can just have a massive protest, if high levels of security are suddenly put into place in NY? Dream on. Hell, We couldn't even get into Central Park because of possible damage to the grass on the Great Lawn. If they want to find a reason, they will. Takes alot of work these days. But thats not the point I was trying to make. I was asking why other states can't get involved too.

By the way, what state do you live in, besides denial? I'd really like to know.

I'm sitting here laughing, reading your post. I think you're the one that should wake up. So if Randi Rhodes says something, you think the whole world is going to lay down and believe it? Are you for real? "I just told you!" "Randi has been been screaming it!" Who died and made you two God?

If there is voter fraud,and it wouldn't surprise me, you need to show proof. And yes I do believe it is the responsibility of the people in these states to get off their a***, get into the street and protest. What's to stop them? We did it here in NY when it effected us personally on many occasions, just not nationally, & not necessarily in large numbers either. And I expect nothing less from other states. Ever hear of planes, trains, cars? Do you honestly believe if people in Ohio got good and pissed off, no one would travel there and join them?? People can only find a way to come to NY, but no other state? Large crowds can't gather in Ohio? LOL! Honestly, you are too ridiculous to take seriously.

You know what you can do with your holier than thou attitude? Shove it.

You are long on words, but short on message. The world revolves around neither of us. I approached your post politely, why you chose to go off is your problem.

I cited you a perfect example, If Floridians were so "angry" about the results of the 2000 election, they have a very odd way of showing it. They have reelected Jeb & George. So what you "think" is of no consequence.
But what they think and who they vote for is. Try dealing with that reality.

And I'll tell you something else, if you have the courage of your convictions, and the proof to back it up, it doesn't matter a damn what others think, you'll proceed with your beliefs. If people truly feel they are the victims of fraud, they should be the ones to start taking action, not expect others to do it for them. Nothing will stop people from joining them, then. What I was trying to point out to you, is that protests held in the states effected, and NY certainly wasn't one of them, would have more of an impact. It makes the whole thing more credible. Duhhhhh. And if you think you can just walk into NY anytime you feel and do what ever the hell you want, you are in for a rude awakening.

Yes, I really live in NY. And yes, probably unlike you I experienced 9/11 first hand. So I'm not going to take any sh** from you, ok? What do you know about anything? Have you ever lived through the aftermath of a terrorist attack? And it's not that people live in fear, its that's we can suddenly find ourselves living in lockdown, like it or not. Have you ever been on the receiving end of a random search? Sharp shooters on roofs? Blocks closed off, barricades? National Guardsmen taking up residence in your neighborhood? If bush's numbers started to fall, we never knew what we could expect from him next. For sure I give my fellow NY'ers alot more credit than those in the "Heartland" who think there is a terrorist behind every corn stalk. But trust bush?? That stupid, no one in this city is.

I'm sorry that I'm probably not as old as you, and wasn't around for every protest under the sun, but I feel I have done my part, not whined, but taken action. And you want to know something? For all your "experience" your generation has truly f*** up enough things in this world, so don't feel so proud of yourself. At least my generation came out solidly for Kerry, more so than any age group,race, religion or gender, more so than Florida or Ohio or alot of these Red States. Deal with it.

And not that it's any of your business, but I'm not depressed, disappointed about the election, yes. But, there is more to my life than just politics, try it sometime.

Well its time for me to attend a class and from the sound of your post, time for your meds. What a waste of my time and yours. Odd that people would be so disturbed about a tornado, yet not if their right to vote is taken from them. Look out Dorothy....grab Toto & run!! Dang! LMAO!!

[breadandwine]

197. Note—If you're new to this thread or not been here in a while,

See post 190. It will help bring you up to speed.

[northamericancitizen]

199. This call for action

should not derailed into generation feuds. Sure we, the babyboomers have more protests under our belt than generation X or Y, but there is no point wasting away our time and energy arguing if we did a good job or not.

Time is a precious commodity in 2004 and all Americans who feel that their basics rights are threatened should rallied behind actions that has the more chance to: being well organized, catch the MSM, and have bushco realized that their big scam won't go without a serious fight from the American people.

From my reading in different posts, local actions are done everyday in a lot of state. But I agree with Breadanwine that a major protest should take place. In New York and against Fox.

Not living in the big U S of A, I had to read a lot to understand the reasons behind that line of action. I came to the conclusion that it is a brilliant way of starting a powerful movement of protestation. It has to take place ASAP.

Some may want to tell me to mind my own business cause I am not an American... Well, I am sure that you can understand that being a "northamericancityzen" I have to do everything I can to have those RW out of the WH.. My neighbor is powerful and (so far) friendly, but I know that it is only a question of time for the WH to bully us into following their policies.

Lise
Your northern neighbor



PS Be indulgent for my english. It is not my first language.

[AmerDem]

201. you have every right to speak out

What goes on here has a major influence on how life goes on up north your way. You write better then I do and English is my first ( and only ) language.

Thanks for contributing.

[northamericancitizen]

202. TY for the feedback n/t

[breadandwine]

203. NorthAmericanCitizen, thanks.

Lise, thanks very much for your comments. I really appreciate them a lot. And yes, what happens in the United States is very relevant to Canadians and you have every right to voice your feelings and we appreciate it very much. The United States is the sole surviving superpower and has a responsibility to respect the community of nations and certainly its next-door neighbor. In recent years I was very troubled by imperialist statements about Canada by Pat Buchanan. He was actually talking about the United States taking pieces of Canada. How anybody could say that about a country that has done absolutely nothing to the United States shows how deranged the right wing is in the United States. And dangerous. Buchanan is a national talking head frequently on the “McLaughlin Group” show on NBC-TV and thus has an audience and a following. And he was a key adviser to President Nixon. Buchanan wanted to encourage the dismemberment of Canada and making sections of Canada part of the United States. Fortunately I don’t know of any other American right-wingers who have said this but if such a posture were to spread among reactionary circles in the U.S. it could be very dangerous and you have every right to be concerned about politics in the U.S. Heaven help us if it suddenly becomes acceptable among right wing groups in the United States to hunger for Canada. I think some of these reactionaries see minority groups growing in the U.S. and think tearing up Canada and taking pieces of it is a way to “keep the United States white.” If such an attitude were to fester in right wing circles there could be secret meddling in Canada by the U.S. Here’s what Buchanan said about Canada:


“Quebec: Offer seceding provinces alliances or statehood. Canada has not been a security concern in this century. That is changing. Quebec may declare independence, and the Maritime and Western provinces could separate from Ottawa. Americans may profoundly regret a breakup of Canada, but we are not a disinterested party; Canada is the most important country on earth for us. Should it come apart, the US should offer trade agreements and security alliances to each successor state, and statehood itself, should any breakaway Canadian province wish it.”


By “statehood” Buchanan means that Canadian provinces should be offered statehood as members of the United States. In the guise of diplomacy and friendship, Buchanan is offering to conquest and hatred. He proposes to reward and egg on those who seek the dismemberment of Canada. I have no idea what the issues are in those sections of Canada but it is definitely not something we Americans should be interfering with. And Buchanan is certainly not interested in local issues in Canada. He is interested in gobbling up Canada. For absolutely no reason. It’s frightful and shows how the right wing in the U.S. covets conquest just for its own sake. Americans fought side by side with Canadians against Hitler. Of course, Buchanan has expressed admiration for Hitler and made a thinly veiled apology for Hitler’s invasion of Poland.

Hang in there up north and keep posting your comments.

[northamericancitizen]

204. Why is this thread buried in the 4th pages in GD?

So far it is the only big protest I read about(not counting jan.20).

www.acalltomarchonfox.blogspot.com.

I don't understand...

Is it because there is no date decided yet?

[breadandwine]

205. NorthAmerican, this whole effort

exists because a tiny handful of people see that with the collapse of free elections we have to go to the streets instead of yammering about who said what on some “mainstream” talk show. People are at different stages of awareness. The honor falls to us to wake them up. Keep kicking. Spread the links to this page and to the blogs, to other parts of DU and to other web sites and chat forums. Alert other groups, organizations. Tell them to come join the discussion and start getting ready. Soon things will fall into place as more people hear about this.

[breadandwine]

206. Let’s start getting practical here!

At some point this march is going to come off. Post your ideas for slogans, chants, banners and picket signs for the march below. Let that be a contribution to the effort. Just, whatever comes into your head. (Let the creative juices flow!) Remember the main theme. This is a march on Fox News in Mid-Manhattan protesting the rigged election and their refusal to tell the truth about it. So far, one suggestion has been, “Rupert Murdoch, tell the truth! Fascists rigged the voting booth!” Or variations on the theme, “One, two, three, four! Rig the vote and hear us roar! Five, six, seven, eight! Stop the lies and votergate!” Post additional suggestions below for the march. Both sign suggestions and chant suggestions. Don’t leave this thread without taking a crack at it. It doesn’t have to be perfect. Rudimentary suggestions can always be edited, updated or tweaked for rhythm etc. later. Come on, people, if you’re reading this, this means you! Your country was just stolen! I realize that the clean living forum needs your help desperately so that you can deal with your guilt over eating Haagen-Dazs ice cream, but let’s take a crack at this!

[northamericancitizen]

207. Sugesstion for a slogan

Just seen it on some picture covering the Canadian protests against bushy :

CORPORATE MEDIA
=
W M D

[jdj]

208. KICK

[breadandwine]

209. Good! Here’s a variation on that:

Fox News:
War on My Democracy

(with the W, M and D in big letters.)


Post more....

[breadandwine]

210. Another Picket Sign Idea —

Here’s another (for march picket sign):

RUPERT:

Reactionary
Undermining
Political
Emancipation from
Republican
Tyranny

[breadandwine]

213. Here's another picket sign idea—

Paper ballots not vapor ballots.

[breadandwine]

211. Here’s another:

Fox News:
Weapon of
Mass
Deception



Note:

This thread is not about talk or shooting the breeze but about ACTION — protest action. Against the rigged election. With special emphasis on protesting the rigged election at Fox headquarters in New York, Fox being a big enabler of the rigged election (especially being that they are on the second floor and TV studio soundproofing ain't perfect). And especially since New York media hate Murdoch and would love to cover this to give Murdoch a come uppance.

So keep this thread KICKED at all times or Narguwullians will enter the space ship through the escape hatch and steal all the food. THEN you will have to eat a Narguwullian, which isn't very appetizing since they taste like cinnamon buns after you have burned them. So if you DON'T see this thread around, THAT means go GET it and kick it.

[northamericancitizen]

212. Erk! I don't want to eat a Narguwullian, so I'll keep on kicking n/t

[breadandwine]

215. Email from Terry McAuliffe ---

Incidentally, I just got an email from Terry McAuliffe and the DNC, maybe some of you got it. It said in part the following, not as much as we would have hoped for, but something:

"Your incredible grassroots support is vital to our continued fight to ensure a full and legitimate count of every single vote in this election and future elections. In addition to our strong commitment to the recount in Washington State, the Democratic Party has empowered the Ohio Democratic Party to represent us as our official observer during the recount. We will make sure that every vote in Ohio is counted.

But we aren't stopping there. After consulting with our Voting Rights Institute staff, Voting Protection Coordinators, Ohio legal team, Party activists, supporters, elected officials, and others, and after reviewing available information, the Democratic National Committee has decided to conduct a thorough investigation of key election issues arising from the conduct of the 2004 general election in Ohio.

This investigative study will address the legitimate questions and concerns that have been raised in Ohio and will develop factual information that will be critically important in crafting further key election reforms. This project seeks to answer such questions as:

* Why did so many people have to wait in line in certain Ohio precincts and not others?
* Why weren't there enough machines in some counties and not others?
* Why were so many Ohioans forced to cast provisional ballots?

We will find answers to help implement and advocate reforms in the future.

Let me be clear. We do not expect either the recount in Ohio or our investigation to overturn the results of this election. But both are vital to protecting every American's voting rights in future elections. And the Democratic Party will never waver when it comes to upholding this sacred trust"

[bvar22]

216. Gee, that's the same thing he said after the 2000 elections....

Are these guys even trying to win elections?
Beginning to look like a HUGE scam to me.

[breadandwine]

217. Democrats need to learn how to fight instead of just raise money.

Well, part of me thinks McAuliffe is just a NEBBISH (hard to translate that for those not initiated into the esoterics of Yiddish...I can take a stab at translating it if you're interested). But whatever it is, the basic task at hand remains the same --- to MARCH. Against the rigged election. Whether anybody likes it or not. Or, if I may paraphrase Michael Douglas in the movie "Wall Street,"

Marching works.

Marching clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.

Marching, in all of its forms -- marching for life, for love, for democracy, for knowledge -- has marked the upward surge of mankind.

And marching -- you mark my words -- will not only save the Democratic Party, but that other malfunctioning entity called the USA.

[breadandwine]

218. Here's another march sign:

Fox News:
Warlord Media Deceiver.

[breadandwine]

219. I got another email from the DNC today.

It describes some genuine accomplishments, especially in grass roots activity. I remember way back when everyone thought they’d never be able to achieve these things and it was a crisis atmosphere. I am sincerely happy for these achievements. Also, Bush won by the narrowest margin of a president seeking reelection in living memory. But nevertheless, all things considered, if the DNC achieved so much, why didn’t Kerry win and why didn’t the Democrats win more seats on Capitol Hill etc.? Because the election was RIGGED and STOLEN. Below is the DNC email:

“Two months from now, the members of the Democratic National Committee will elect a new party chairman. And we welcome the spirited discussion among candidates, activists, and progressive organizations on the direction and future of the Democratic Party.

Under Chairman Terry McAuliffe's leadership, the DNC has spent the past four years making the power of grassroots activism a top priority. Thanks to those efforts, the Democratic Party is stronger than it has ever been before.

* In 2000, the DNC only raised $35 million in small donations. Most of our resources -- over $150 million -- came in large donations. But in 2004, there was a remarkable turnaround. This year, the vast majority of our funding -- over $248 million -- came from average Americans donating what they could, while large donations actually went down to just $105 million -- less than a third of our total.
* In the past four years, the DNC expanded its small donor base seven fold, from 400,000 in 2000 to 2.7 million in 2004.
* The DNC invested $80 million in grassroots field organizing in 2004 -- 166 percent over 2000.
* The DNC fielded more than 2000 organizers in battleground states, and conducted 530 organizing conventions across the country, training nearly 80,000 attendees.
* We also mobilized 233,000 volunteers, knocking on 11 million doors, and making 38 million volunteer phone calls.

These remarkable accomplishments could not have been achieved without your tireless dedication to our party and to the enacting the strategic plans we put in place over the past four years.

One thing is certain: The gains of the past cannot be reversed. The power of the grassroots will not put back in the bottle. And the future of the Democratic Party looks stronger than ever. We all need to pull together and work together.”

[breadandwine]

220. DNC Leadership prospects address DNC---

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&ncid=519&e=21&u=/ap/20041211/ap_on_re_us/democrats

It will be interesting to see if any of them have the guts to bring up the issue of the stolen election. Or if they did, whether the media will tell us they did....

[breadandwine]

221. Here’s another march sign idea:

What if they stole an election and nobody knew?

[breadandwine]

222. Votergate protest marches over the weekend—

But they were spread out all over the lot and thus sparsely attended and hardly reported at all. Which proves exactly what we have been talking about — we need a big march in a single city that can produce big numbers and we also need to target a key villain of the media for suppressing the truth and to send a signal to the other media as well. Hence, protest the rigged election in New York — in front of Fox News, and make it a big event. We are seeing a couple hundred people here, a couple hundred people there and it is being ignored. All those people need to start getting together for bigger events to jump start the protest "brush fire." (Figuratively speaking, in the political sense, not literally.)

[breadandwine]

225. If anyone has more info on the weekend votergate protests —

please post it below....

[breadandwine]

224. Great news — Dems assume watchdog role —

Democrats Say They'll Assume Watchdog Role

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/14/politics/14cong.html?oref=login

This New York Times article tells how the Senate Democrats are now going to begin having their own hearings regularly on GOP abuses of power. This will be done under the auspices of the Democratic Policy Committee, a Senate body already established long ago by law. It is a Democratic Party body within the Senate and includes Republicans out. The DPC will not have subpoena power, but they emphasize that lots of people, potential watchdogs, already want to come forward to tell what they know about what is going wrong in government and don’t need to be forced anyway.

This is wonderful news with endless potential. I had advocated this sort of thing a couple years ago and made a lot of phone calls to Capitol Hill and to the DNC, spoke to some decent, well-meaning people who thought it an interesting idea. I also spoke to some incredibly stupid Democrats who were living examples of what Mark Twain said about Congressmen (or their staffs in this case), that they are incredibly stupid. As Twain put it, “Suppose you were an idiot, and suppose you were a member of Congress; but I repeat myself.”

Two items that should be put on the agenda immediately — investigating the stolen election and investigating bias and corruption of the news media.

I’ve said repeatedly that it is preposterous to think that a party with 49 or even 45 seats in the Senate can’t have any power.

I think Democrats on Capitol Hill finally realized they have nothing to lose. That’s the silver lining in hitting bottom.

[breadandwine]

226. CIA Watchdog Reporter "Suicided"!

Gary Webb, who had reported for the San Jose Mercury News on the CIA's drug connections, has been found dead at age 49 of an apparently "self-inflicted gunshot wound."

http://www.montereycountyweekly.com/issues/Issue.12-16-2004/news/Article.news_briefs

He was 49 years old and seemed to have been doing extremely well in his current new reporting job.

Note that this comes right after the election so as not to create any issue during the election.

[northamericancitizen]

227. Keep on Kicking

[Karenina]

229. OK.

:kick:

[breadandwine]

230. Here’s another anti-Fox sign idea:

Man, this is perfect —

Just simply,

“Fox guarding the chicken coup.”

Man, what a sound byte to have to live down.

The media are supposed to be a watchdog. Calling yourself “Fox” is almost begging to get mocked and criticized.

[SoCalDem]

231. I'm sorry, but timing is EVERYTHING..

The "public" has already accepted *²'s 2nd term.. To have been effective, there would have had to have been MILLIONS of people in the streets the very next day..in DC ./.in Ohio...in Florida...in New Mexico...in Washington state...in Colorado..

We sat back and "waited" once again..(just like they knew we would)

I don;t care HOW rightwing the media is, they could NOT have ignored MILLIONS of people all over the country protesting the "slow-count"..."weird count"...

Protests 2 months after the fact will only portray the protestors as "disgruntled out-of-the-loopers"...or "conspiracy nuts"..

Our wonderful national media has told us for TWO MONTHS that *² won, and the people have moved on.:(

This is not the Ukraine.....apparently THEY value democracy..Maybe we have all become too complacent, and think we will never lose ours.. The Ukrainians know better:(

[breadandwine]

232. So Cal Dem, maybe you haven't been keeping up with history,

but the Watergate scandal about Nixon rigging the '72 election broke mainly months after Nixon was inaugurated for his second term, after initially only two reporters covered it for months. From nearly zero coverage it became the biggest issue. There are those who would like this to go away simply because some establishment Democrats didn't shout enough. This is not going away and we aim to make this — the stolen election — the number one scandal of the Bush presidency whether anybody likes it or not. Even you. This is not about being in time for a "recount." This is about DELEGITIMIZING the entire Bush presidency whether he's innaugurated or not. Bush wants to promote a "mandate" for a radical right wing second term agenda. DELEGITIMIZATION is essential to slow that and undermine it. And the rest of the world overseas — which has diplomatic relations with Bush and the U.S. and can choose to cooperate with the Bush regime or not — needs to hear about the rigged election too regardless of demoralized "let's do nothing, it's all too late" calculations about the timing. By your logic we shouldn't do anything, say anything, protest anything, complain about anything, because, wah, wah, wah, it's all too late. Read the rest of this thread and blogs referred to above.

[SoCalDem]

233. Delegitimization I am all for, but I hope people do not get their hopes

dashed when *² is re-installed on Jan 20.. :( That's all I meant.

Sadly, the people who think he's the best thing since sliced bread will not change their minds until things go very wrong for them, and since he cannot (I hope!) be re-installed, we were all taken for another ride.A very BUMPY ride.

What saddens me the most is the breakneck pace at which he is dismantling things. So even when a dem does get back into the WH, he/she will be faced with the enourmous challenge of RE-creating the safety nets that *² so cheerfully destroyed.

That was the whole purpose of the kamikaze taxcuts, so that a simple "restoration" of them will be trumpeted as TAX INCREASES TAX INCREASES TAX INCREASES..
bastards..all of them :grr:

[breadandwine]

234. SoCalDem, let’s analyze what you just said.

You just said, “Delegitimization I am all for, but I hope people do not get their hopes dashed when * is re-installed on Jan 20.” You seem to be doing your best to dash them long before Jan. 20. You ignored what I just said. I just said this is not about stopping the second inauguration of Bush. Why are you trying to pretend that’s what these protests are all about? Cut the talking points and listen. You then said, “Sadly, the people who think he's the best thing since sliced bread will not change their minds until things go very wrong for them.” Wake up SoCalDem. You and some others obsess over all those who voted for Bush as if they were a majority. They’re a minority. Kerry won. I wonder if you have that clearly in mind. If you DON’T have that clearly in mind, you are not a friend to this thread. You then say, “Even when a dem does get back into the WH, he/she will be faced with the enourmous challenge of RE-creating the safety nets that * so cheerfully destroyed.” You’re laying on the demoralization a little thick, aren’t you? People faced far worse obstacles in history. Read further up this thread about how thousands of Chinese had to cross a chain bridge on which all the slats had been removed during their revolution. You’re saying it is all hopeless, we’ll never be able to undo the damage, etc. etc. so forget the whole thing and don’t bother protesting because — it’s just hopeless!!! There are already people protesting and doing so in front of Fox and the New York Post will attract the attention of competitor news organizations in New York City who detest Murdoch and it will spread. Someday people will ask, “Where were you when we stood in the streets?”

[breadandwine]

235. Here’s the “chicken coop” sign as a chant —

“Bush pulls a coup!
Fox guards the chicken coop!”

(Actually that’s with an “o-u” — “coup” — and a silent “p” for “coup d’etat.” Also spelled “coup d’état” if your computer can tolerate an accent over the “e.” With a double “o” and a vocalized “p” — “coop” — it means an enclosure for penning in animals.)

Meaning of course, that Fox is a failure as a media “watchdog” in reporting on the rigged election.

[breadandwine]

236. Here's another march sign idea —

Just simply,

"Fog News."

[GetTheRightVote]

237. I like the Coup ideal, I hope you do not mind if I borrow it ??

[breadandwine]

238. More on Fox and fog —

Incidentally, Hitler employed a program called “nacht und nebel” — “night and fog” — in which some of his atrocities were committed in secret under the obscuring cover of fog and night. Here is a variation on that as another sign idea —

“Night and fog…
Night and Fox.”

[breadandwine]

241. Note—my phone and internet service keep going out.

And with the weekend and holidays coming up I am being told that a technician will not be out to my house for several days.

If democracy matters to you more than gossiping about who said what on some talk show, then keep this thread kicked because I may not be able to for several days.

That means, if you don't see this thread, go find it and kick it. That does not mean to kick it when it is on page one of this forum. You need to kick it whenever it is NOT on page one. Otherwise this thread could end up being archived. Please keep this thread kicked if democracy matters to you.

[chicagiana]

242. You march while Kerry lounges on Martha's Vinyard ...

... whats the point.

Marching against a rigged election means your fighting for someone. Why would you fight for someone who won't fight for themselves!!!

Who do you plan on installing ... Al Gore???

[breadandwine]

245. The point is not about any individual you don’t like

but the right of the people to choose.

Chicagiana, if you’re not interested in protecting democracy why bother being involved with a democratic website? I am getting really sick and tired of these gloom and doom robo-talking points telling us to just quit. I am sick and tired of people scrounging around for excuses to tell us we shouldn’t have liked Kerry in the first place blah blah so therefore we should just let Bush have a free ride. We will fight against the stolen election even if Bush is inaugurated because this is about more than any one man but about the illegitimacy of the Bush presidency. The Watergate scandal took months to develop after Nixon was reinaugurated and he was eventually forced from power by the scandal. We will prevail because Bush is an illegitimate bastard of a president and nothing you say will make us shut up. You are not a friend to this thread. If you don’t like Kerry, what are you doing here? John Kerry just spent two years exhausting himself. He also filed legal action to recount all over Ohio. What’s your beef with Martha’s Vineyard? Do you have something against Kerry living in Massachusetts?

[chicagiana]

247. It's not that I don't like Kerry ...

... I never really liked the man as our candidate because he was uninspiring and too far to the right. He played right into Bush's hands throughout the election. He compromised his own message and took middling actions when he should have been demonstrating courage.

People will follow a leader. Kerry just plain gave up after the election. Who is going to follow that???

When Kerry takes to the streets, maybe I'll follow. But I'm not making any plans.

Democratic Underground may very well need to change it's name. Because there is very little to believe in within the Democratic Party. They've become spineless, weak and compromised by the corporate forces they're supposed to be fighting.

Our principles have been corrupted. And I'm pretty certain at this point that the Democratic Party as we know it probably has one more election left before it becomes meaningless.

Hopefully, out of the ashes something better will emerge. But the DLC is taking the Dems in all the wrong direction. I daresay that all the moderate Republicans would be comfortable in the DLC Dems if it wasn't so repugnant to their sensibilities.

[shadowknows69]

243. anybody into chartering a bus from northern new york and filming it?

IM me. I have the video gear. If you can raise the bus cash.

[northamericancitizen]

246. It is more important than ever

to stay connected and positive. Democracy cannot and will not disapear if every one of us keep the flame alive.

I agree with Breadandwine, we should not make this fight about John Kerry. I like the man but at the end of the day this battle is about taking away the power from the bushco.


P.S Breadandwine I hope you wont be disconnected for to long. We need your voice.

Peace to all of us.

Lise

[northamericancitizen]

248. Lets keep this thread on the front burner. n/t

[breadandwine]

249. More trouble again with my phone line today —

Couldn't call out for hours. Technician coming in a few days. Something really stinks about this.

Keep it kicked folks.

[northamericancitizen]

251. Keep on going, kicking and talking about it. If we don't who will?

[breadandwine]

254. Remember everyone, the stolen election is huge.

It can't be kept secret forever.

[breadandwine]

258. Here's another march protest sign---

Just simply:

"Fox trot to dictatorship"

[breadandwine]

259. Kerry, others, speak out----

The New York Times (Times’ website, Jan 6) is reporting now that Senator Kerry has stated that:

“I am deeply concerned about the issues being highlighted by my colleagues in Congress and citizens across the country and support their efforts to highlight the need to ensure voting rights.”

The article makes clear that Kerry does not want to sound like a “sore loser,” and the party as a whole seems concerned about not looking like sore losers, but nevertheless, the claim of some Democrats that people like Kerry are aloof from the vote fraud issue are also wrong.

It’s sad that Kerry will not make a more public stink but he is now on record supporting the issue we are stressing and that’s very important. Kerry’s voice has now provided an important piece to the puzzle. This issue will now not go away.

Although I definitely would have preferred it otherwise, in one sense it is just as well that the party establishment is not more actively involved in the protest over the vote fraud because now — ex post facto — they can’t tell us what to do. That’s what establishments usually do — try to get people to “simmer down,” it’s a compulsive knee jerk establishment reaction, and thankfully, they have lost the right to do that by not doing more themselves.

But on the positive side we are left with the above statement by Senator Kerry, which is definitely very useful to our cause. And Kerry is also highlighting the fact that others on Capitol Hill are making a stink too, which is important. Among those are Representative John Conyers Jr. of Michigan, the senior Democrat on the House Judiciary Committee. California Senator Barbara Boxer is also contemplating getting into the issue, according to the Times. These developments may appear subtle, but little cracks — clink, clink — are starting to develop in the wall of silence and that is very very good.

[breadandwine]

260. Votergate battle heats up on Capitol Hill!

There were real fireworks on Capitol Hill yesterday as Democratic congressmen denounced the vote fraud. Go Congresswoman Stephanie Tubbs Jones and all the others! You can see the video of this right on C-Span at these addresses:

rtsp://video.c-span.org/60days/wh010605_house.rm?mode=compact

http://tinyurl.com/672p9

[breadandwine]

261. By the way---

We said previously that Rupert Murdoch's empire is headquartered at Rockefeller Plaza in New York. Adding to the political incest among the powerful, it was recently reported in the New York Times that Murdoch is buying the Fifth Avenue Penthouse of the late Laurence S. Rockefeller --- for a record $44 million! You will recall that it was the Rockefellers who were illegally shipping oil to Hitler during World War II........

[northamericancitizen]

262. We should have learned by now.

We should not let history repeat itself.

If each and everyone of us, once a day, tell one person about the importance of justice and democracy, we will succeed.

[breadandwine]

263. Another piece of good news---

Democrats are starting to talk about using the character issue against the Republicans — as in the USA Today article here —

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=676&e=6&u=/usatoday/20050110/ts_usatoday/characterissueputsdemsonthedefensive

which is one of the points that was made in the blog that inspired this thread — to really go after Republicans like Bush as the lowlifes they are.

In the USA Today article, it says that:


"Democrats 'as a group are uneasy' about attacking and defending on character, says Harold Ickes, a former Clinton aide who heads the Media Fund, a political ad organization. 'But they damn well better get the stomach,' he adds, because 'we've seen way too many of our candidates taken down on issues of character.'

The article observes that the GOP has managed to brand Democrats as unpatriotic (Michael Dukakis, the "card-carrying" member of the ACLU), untruthful (Al Gore, the "serial exaggerator") and unprincipled and weak (Kerry, the "flip-flopper") who couldn't be trusted to keep the nation safe. All these, the article argues, are variations on a theme: "These men have character flaws that disqualify them for the White House."

In other words, what the Democrats won't touch because they are squeemish about "smear campaigning" and "we can't stoop to their level" is to the Republicans the bread and butter politics of "character."

But it's good to see Democrats finally waking up to the fact that they have to belt the GOP on being the THE SLIMEBALLS THEY ARE.

[breadandwine]

264. Votergate conspiracy continues---

Another vote-rig Bush appointment---

Resident Bush just appointed Michael Chertoff as the new Homeland Security head. You may recall that Chertoff previously distinguished himself as the whitewasher in charges that N.J. governor Christine Todd Whitman had tried to depress black voting ---


“When Ed Rollins, Whitman's campaign manager, told a breakfast meeting of reporters in Washington that the Republicans had spent $500,000 to convince black ministers to tell their parishioners not to support former Gov. Jim Florio…former U.S. Attorney Michael Chertoff and former state Attorney General George Kugler to investigate. They later found the charges were baseless.”


http://www.shp.org/Home/Alumni/Notables/Headliners/Zazzali/zazzali.html

Which is absurd since Rollins actually confessed. Publicly. At a breakfast meeting. A breakfast meeting of reporters. What are you gonna believe — us, or your lying ears and eyes?

Not only did Bush rig the 2004 election, but he just appointed a key election rigging whitewasher as head of a key agency used this past year to terrorize voters with false terror warnings.



Anyone who does not see by now that the rigged election is the number one — and ENDURING — issue for the foreseeable future is blind.

[breadandwine]

266. Week of January 20 —

Welp, ABC has reported a bit on the inauguration week protests coming up. I am glad to see that the protests will prominently emphasize the RIGGED ELECTION and not just that Bush is a jerk etc.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=350880

[breadandwine]

267. U.S. Intelligence a key votergate culprit—

Incidentally, one of the things that has not gotten enough attention are all the states ASIDE from Florida and Ohio, that gave Bush a “popular vote majority.” But that popular vote was at variance with all the national exit polls and the discrepancy is so great that mathematically it is impossible that Bush really won the popular vote. In my opinion you can’t get that kind of vote rigging just from some crooked e-vote company. For that kind of nationwide vote rigging you need the high-tech wizards of the National Security Agency, who can hack into anything, and have the resources to do it on a vast scale.

[anarchy1999]

268. All day long in Dallas. See link below for calendar of events. 1st

starts at 10:30am.

http://www.dallaspeacecenter.org/calendar.htm

[breadandwine]

269. Thanks for the link.

How much of those events will play up the key issue — that the election was stolen and the Bush presidency is a fraud from the get go? This is the key issue morning, noon and night — the total, utter ILLEGITIMACY of the Bush regime, period. Posters, chants and signs need to play this up. The election was fake, a coup.

[anarchy1999]

270. Please if you are any where near Dallas come and join in.

n/t

We've decided to stay home and spend our money here protesting. See you all at the Granada on the 21st. See you all day anywhere on the 20th, much is happening, just choose when and where. Bush Inc. are going to go down, it's just a question of when.

[breadandwine]

271. Good luck in Dallas!

Are you guys down there going to emphasize the stolen election? This is critical. It's all about Bush's total illegitimacy.

[breadandwine]

272. Anyone with pics & info about the inauguration protests —

Post it here. Tell us how you're doing.

[breadandwine]

273. Here's another stolen election 2004 website—

http://www.stolenelection2004.com/

[breadandwine]

274. Bush inoculating big time —

Man is he sweating under the collar. The New York Times is reporting that resident Bush’s planned inaugural address — practice clocked at a pathetic, PITIABLE 17 minutes — will be about freedom. Why? Because Bush knows he’s being accused of election stealing. So it is all about inoculating the public with brainwash blather about how he is all for freedom don’t forget!

Offering a preview of Thursday's inaugural address, Bush was saying freedom is what he would talk about: ``This is the cause that unites our country and gives hope to the world and will lead us to a future of peace. We have a calling from beyond the stars to stand for freedom, and America will always be faithful to that cause.''

All meaningless buzz words. Just remember my fellow Americans. I’m for freedom. I didn’t steal the election (chortle).

They were really milking it for all it’s worth today. The Bushes and Cheneys were sitting outdoors on a heated stage at a musical extravaganza called ``A Celebration of Freedom,'' named for the inauguration's theme. Oh — did I mention? It’s all about freedom. ``No night is too cold to celebrate freedom,'' Bush told the audience. Sure. You people in the crowd freeze while we sit on a heated stage. Scott McClellan, Bush’s spokesman said, ``The president will talk about the power of freedom. Peace is secured by advancing freedom.''

Blah blah blah. I didn’t steal the election.

Blah blah blah. Pay no attention to those protesters out there.

The article also mentioned that Bush is beginning his second stolen term with an Associated Press poll this month giving him 49% — the lowest approval rating for this point of any two-term president. About the same percentage that really voted for him. Bush got exactly zero election “bounce” and exactly nobody who didn’t vote for him is suddenly rallying around. Bush is also talking about unity, because for this phony there ain’t none.

Sweat, sweat, sweat. Pay no attention to the — um — elephant in the living room.

[CarpeVeritas]

275. the march against the rigged election was 4 YEARS AGO!

this one was won with bigotry instead.
i'm staying home- i marched 4 years ago, and look at all the good it did...

[breadandwine]

276. Wake up and smell reality.

Maybe you haven't been keeping up with current events, but if 2000 was rigged, which it was, 2004 was rigged SQUARED. State after state. Bush's supposed popular vote edge nationally was at total variance with national exit polls. Mathematicians comuted astronomical odds against that happening by chance. The 2004 vote was hack city. The voters in 2004 did not vote for bigotry. They voted for Kerry.

[breadandwine]

277. Observations on the inaugural protests—

1) The inaugural protests did get some publicity although major protests would have gotten more publicity in a place like New York where the reporters are not all Beltway suckups who see sources in the right wing government as their bread and butter and whom they do not want to piss off.

2) The subject of the rigged election did get some attention in the protests, but not enough because too many other issues were thrown in.

Which again underscores that we need a big protest against the rigged election and against Fox in New York.

[breadandwine]

278. Is abortion more important than the freedom to vote?

Today, all across the country there were protests both for and against abortion. Essentially, all these people are marching for different concepts of sexual freedom and responsibility. But what good is all this mouthing off — on either side of the issue — if the government and Supreme Court that control these issues are picked by people who were not elected? Of course, all these people are BUSY — very busy to be sure — protesting their pet issues. Have any of them noticed that our country was just stolen? Or are they too busy focusing on their selfish pet projects, important projects to be sure, VERY important projects. But still selfish in the face of the terrible event of the stolen election — which they are ignoring. The man who will now pack the Supreme Court, with nary a whimper from the GOP Congress, was not elected. And neither were many in the GOP Congress. Bush will replace the ailing Rehnquist with another fascist. People can scream, “Our bodies! Our lives!” But it is all meaningless until people scream:

“Our country! Our vote!”

[breadandwine]

279. Bush heading to lame duck?

Today the New York Times ran a piece saying that Bush’s presidency is in fact pretty weak and that people in both parties agree that he has about two years before becoming basically a lame duck.

Meanwhile, there is much agreement that moves will be made against Iran’s nuclear program. Cheney is talking of the Israelis taking out the Iranian nuclear facilities with air strikes but the smart analysis seems to be saying that too much of those nuclear facilities have been dispersed around Iraq precisely to avoid an Israeli attack as the Israelis did in Iraq years ago. A lot of the Iranian nuclear facilities are also buried underground.

What this means is that it is going t0 require a land invasion by the U.S., launched from American strongholds in Iraq, to root out the Iranian nuclear facilities and get them all. This will not be like the false claims of WMD’s in Iraq by Bush, since the Iranians themselves openly admit they have been enriching uranium. So it looks as if there will be U.S. attacks on Iran and probably long before two years are up, especially with the Bush war talk of late.

Where does that leave us? My bet is that the Iran situation won’t be as successful an operation as the Bush administration hopes. Then the centrifugal forces of a meaningless Bush second term with no clear ideals beyond rhetoric and reactionaryism, (with different GOP factions seeking to make their own agendas) will collide with the overbearing American attacks on Iran that will be more pugnacious than precision. At that point I think rising anti-war protests and the general unraveling of the Bush lame duck second term will come together to make Bush very weak in less than two years.

So my conclusion is that if we fight like hell over the next two years, and if we make a point of rooting out phony electronic voting, and if we make the stolen election an issue, that we may have a serious opening against the GOP in the next two years.

[breadandwine]

280. Utterly beyond belief!

On Sunday’s Meet The Press, the GOP’s point man on Social Security, Representative Bill Thomas of California, came right out and said we should start getting into giving different amounts of Social Security depending on a person’s gender and the color of his skin I KID YOU NOT.

Of course, I got a DNC email from Terry McAuliffe about it.

Probably the Democrats are tickled pink that the GOP shoved their foot down their own throat so deep. In theory it is a huge embarrassment to the GOP. Which logically will undermine their evil plans.

Or will it? Has the GOP become even more unglued, or do they really know what they are doing?

If the GOP is convinced that they can rig elections with impunity, then even the most demonic agenda becomes possible for them — even easy — because without free elections, WHO IS GOING TO STOP THEM?????????????????

[breadandwine]

281. Kangaroo State of the Union

Bush is now promising to make Social Security privatization (abolition) a cornerstone of his upcoming State of the Union address. Perhaps he will call it “Arbeit macht frei” (“Work makes you free” — the Nazi banner at the Auschwitz extermination camp). Bush will mutter meaningless catch phrases in his speech. Americans have a RIGHT to be free and independent and working at 89! Flex time for seniors! Centenarians have a right to pitch in and work for the national good!!!!!!!!!! Nobody has the right to tell YOU that you can’t work while you’re in your wheelchair! Then the Bush jihadniks over at the Gallop poll will go to work claiming the American people are just tickled pink at losing their Social Security. Then some Democrats, trembling in e-vote states, will start to panic and begin “negotiating” with the GOP for a watered down Social Security privatization. Bush will split the difference, wreck Social Security, call it the “Geritol program” or “rejuvenation in our time,” and then the 2006 elections will be rigged.

[breadandwine]

282. Bush political plans getting clear---

Bush just held a press conference which was heavy in buzz words and Karl Rove hypnotic mantras. Bush kept repeating the word "democracy." This is like George Orwell's "Newspeak." Bush also kept repeating the word "bankrupt" --- that Social Security is going "bankrupt." Bush will brainwash as many people as possible and then split the difference by rigging the 2006 elections.

[breadandwine]

283. Orwellian Bush ---

In today’s New York Times Paul Krugman writes in a column that the other day Bush actually met with black leaders and told them that since blacks don’t live as long as whites, they get less Social Security benefits. He tried to tell them basically that Social Security is RACIST!!!! This is so ridiculous, so politically suicidal, that it can only mean that Bush thinks he can politically walk between the raindrops and never get wet. Mark my words. Bush would not be doing this unless he already knew the 2006 Congressional elections are going to be rigged.

[breadandwine]

284. Iraqi election this Sunday —

Nobody thinks this is a really well set up election and many there are boycotting the vote. Which all leads back like a trail of breadcrumbs to the man who hatched the faulted process — the same man for whom the vote was rigged here in the U.S.

[slackmaster]

285. The VRWC kicked my dog!

Oh wait, I have cats.

:dunce:

Never mind.

[breadandwine]

286. Gaza election shooting —

The other day Mahmoud Abbas was elected Palestinian leader. (Incidentally, he wrote his doctoral thesis in the Soviet Union on Holocaust denial. Abbas also arranged the financing of the massacre at the Munich Olympics and is a lifelong terrorist.) There were charges of election fraud. Right after the vote there were municipal elections in Gaza and the terrorist group Hamas scored a landslide victory. So today it is being reported that as Hamas was celebrating its municipal election victory, Fatah, one of the terrorist groups controlled by Abbas, opened fire on them, sparking a melee that left 25 people wounded. Meanwhile, in Iraq, a leading radical cleric is boycotting the election. The Iraqi Kurds have long felt excluded and have been moving to set up a separate country in their part of Iraq.

This is democracy Middle East style.

On Sunday the Iraqi elections will be held. It will be very interesting indeed to see how the Election Rigger In Chief describes all these things in the coming days.

[ultraist]

287. March 20: Anti-War, Anti-Bush protests around the globe

Please plan to attend one of the many anti-war/anti-Bush portests on March 20. United for peace and justice, answer coalition, the Quakers, and a number of other orgs are planning rallies around the world. March 20 marks the second anniversary of the Iraq invasion.

BRING YOUR ANTI BUSH SIGNS!

[breadandwine]

288. DNC Chair Fight Getting Interesting—

I have now seen two articles indicating that Howard Dean is in the lead to win the chairmanship of the Democratic National Committee. Although he put his foot in his mouth several times during the campaign, sparking a barb from James Carville that he had “mad mouth disease,” on the whole I think Dean is chastened from that and is much more of a fighter than the other guys and probably the best hope for DNC officialdom to make a serious stink about election rigging.

At a Friday meeting in New York Donald Fowler Jr., one of the other DNC contenders, said, “The aristocracy of consultants in Washington, D.C., doesn't get it any more. They have a stranglehold on our party that has turned the D.N.C. into something that means ‘Do not change.’ ”

Although Fowler is running for Chairman himself, his comments are probably a good reason to think the choice of Dean would be a good thing for the party, and, I hope, for the fight against election rigging.

[breadandwine]

289. More DNC news good for votergate issue—

I'm seeing that the Los Angeles Times is reporting that the contenders for DNC Chair are not the seedy types we have seen chairing in the past. Hopefully the Democratic Party is beginning to act like an opposition. This seems another good omen for the fight against vote rigging and e-voting. Here is a nice quote from the LA Times article:

"Even with the unusually large field, none of the candidates fits the profile of the insider-fundraiser-lobbyist-operator that has usually filled the top job in both parties, a description that aptly fits the outgoing chairman, Terry McAuliffe, a premier Democratic fundraiser for about two decades."

[breadandwine]

290. Well, well, well—

The interim Iraqi president, Ghazi al-Yawer, who is a Sunni, now says that there was a shortage of ballots in some important areas where Iraq's Sunni minority has large populations.

SOUND FAMILIAR?

[Blue_In_AK]

293. I read that this morning, too

How con-veeeeeeeeen-ient.

[breadandwine]

294. Yep.

Democracy is pushing an ox cart while Election Rig Central is flying in a hypersonic cryogenic-fueled Aurora jet. They’ve got the whole election rigging system worked out to a “T” and they’re all operating from the same playbook. Election rigging is the number one issue and the rigged election strings are being pulled from Washington.

[breadandwine]

296. Iraq's emerging theocracy —

In election results in Iraq, the fundamentalist Shiite parties, many aligned with Iran, are surging ahead. Is this democracy in the making, or a headlong rush to a theocratic state?

[breadandwine]

291. Bush on a "roll"—

Tonight in his State of the Union address Bush will "save" Social Security.

Just like he "saved" democracy.

In the words of George Orwell in "1984"—



"War is peace.
Freedom is slavery.
Ignorance is strength."

[breadandwine]

292. More Orwellian Bush speak—

In his state of the union address, Bush warned that "The math doesn't work!" for those wanting to defend the existing Social Security system. He is proposing trillions of dollars in new red ink. I think maybe this is Karl Rove's whole strategy. Find out what the other side is going to accuse you of and then frame your whole approach around accusing them of what you expect THEM to say about YOU.

Social Security? Your math doesn't work!

Democracy? Everybody else needs to get some!

Bad vote counting? We'll FIX that problem by installing electronic slot machines in every polling place!

[breadandwine]

295. Still more Bush speak—

Condoleezza Rice, who is touring European capitals, said the other day that regarding a US military attack on Iran’s nuclear program, "The question is simply not on the agenda at this point - we have diplomatic means to do this." The media is all drooling over this denial as if it were cast in stone. But notice that telltale phrase, “AT THIS POINT.” This is code language for “We could invade or bomb you next month.”

It is incredible how the Bush administration pushes war, tyranny, phony elections, destruction of Social Security and mugging widows, cripples and orphans, and then papers over all of it with a few Orwellian phrases and everybody swallows it all hook, line and sinker.

And Rice isn’t in Europe to promote free groovy love and flower power. She is there for one reason — to see what support she can line up from European governments for military action against Iran.

[breadandwine]

297. Big news!!!!!!

Tim Roemer, the only remaining opponent of Howard Dean to be DNC chair in the DNC vote Feb. 12, just dropped out! Dean is now expected to win and become DNC chair.

Roemer groused that 97 of the 100 fastest growing counties in the country went to Bush, which he called “devastating” and blamed the election loss on demographics. In other words, bad Democratic policies. If only we had paid attention to those NASCAR dads!

There’s only one problem with your analysis, tiny (brained) Tim. Exit polls showed Kerry won the popular vote, even though months earlier nobody had hardly heard of him and the vote was rigged and yet Bush’s margin of selection at any rate was the lowest of any president ever re(s)elected.

“I got into this race five weeks ago to talk about the devastating loss we experienced in November,” Roemer said in an interview. “It was not about 60,000 votes in Ohio.”

Oh yes it was, Timmy. And all the other states around the country that got rigged.

He continued, “It was about losing 97 of the 100 fastest growing counties in the country. If that’s a trend in business or politics you're in trouble.”

See? He can’t help but mention a business trend. Business, money, corporate bean counting.

This is a big part of what has been wrong with the Democratic Party for a long time. It has been run by census takers and demographic bean counters instead of people with fire in their belly.

Mark my words. Dean’s ascent to the DNC chairmanship is a sea change for the Democratic Party. We will now have fire in the belly of the Democratic Party, and that is an incredibly positive development.

It is amazing to me that this little Lilliputian Roemer is sitting there muttering and carping about people who dare complain about the rigged election. Of course, in his nervous little denial he is acknowledging that the rigged election is indeed the number one issue. Otherwise he wouldn’t be complaining about it.

Roemer can sit there insisting that there ain’t no such thing as election rigging and it all boils down to some census figures he is playing with. Goodbye, Tim.

Let Roemer go off somewhere to continue doodling with his spaghetti.

And congratulations to Howard Dean. Finally the party will be led by someone who isn’t as quiet as a mouse and worried about showing the GOP that he will be a “good little boy.”

[breadandwine]

298. Bush election rigging has Dems cowed—

Although Democrats are holding their ground on the Social Security issue, one of the interesting facts about that is how polite they are being about it. Bush is essentially proposing to shoot widows and orphans, his glass jaw is exposed and yet no one is going for the jugular.

Here is how Senator Max Baucus, Democrat on the Finance Committee, expressed himself. He said that what Bush
“has announced so far does not get us one dime closer to solving the problem.” Really? Who says there’s even a problem? Since when is the GOP really concerned about a social program’s solvency decades into the future when they've got wars to fight next week? This is about hatred of the needy. Already today the New York Times has a piece about how retirees are having to go back to work. Bush is saying to the elderly, "You don't invest, you don't eat." Pretty soon it will be “You don’t work, you don’t eat.” Get out of your nursing home and get a job. And it has been shown that Social Security is far more solvent than social-program-hating Republicans claim and will be for decades.

Baucus, noting that Bush does not actually have a plan, continued, “If he will not recommend how to extend Social Security’s solvency, I believe that Congress will not do it on its own. He is the president. It's his job to lead. We await his proposal.”

Although there is strategy in this comment, at the same it is just incredibly polite and timid. Bush has to lead. Blah, blah, blah.

Keep in mind that Baucus is a successful Democratic senator from a state that voted handily for Bush. So maybe he feels constrained to show politeness to Republicans in a Republican state.

But what about Democrats in Democratic states? Why are THEY polite? Why aren’t THEY screaming bloody murder? Because too many of them haven’t faced up to the fact that the election was stolen — and they still think Bush has more support than he really does.

[breadandwine]

299. More GOP dirty tricks—

I just saw the Times headline, “Baltimore Mayor Denounces State Aide’s Rumors About Affair.” Without knowing about the personalities in the story a little birdie immediately told me that the victim in this story was a Democrat, and the perpetrator was a Republican. How could I POSSIBLY have surmised so well? Here’s what the lead paragraph then said:

“Mayor Martin J. O’Malley of Baltimore yesterday denounced rumors spread by a Republican state official that the Democratic mayor once had an extramarital affair and he called the accusations ‘despicable lies.’ ”

[breadandwine]

300. I just got a count-every-vote email from Hillary—

I just got an email from Senator Hillary Clinton entitled “Count Every Vote.” Here’s what she said:




“It's time to tell those who celebrate elections and voter participation in countries around the world that we must make sure every vote is counted in elections right here at home!

That's why I am asking you to sign on now as a citizen co-sponsor of vitally important election reform legislation.

http://www.friendsofhillary.com/CountEveryVote

Next week, I will introduce the Count Every Vote Act of 2005, co-sponsored by Senator Barbara Boxer. This comprehensive election reform bill will:

* Provide a verified paper ballot for every vote cast in electronic voting machines.
* Set a uniform standard for provisional ballots, so that every qualified voter within the state will know their votes are treated equally and will be counted.
* Require the Federal Election Assistance Commission to issue standards that ensure uniform access to voting machines and election personnel in every community. It's outrageous that some people in predominantly minority communities had to wait up to 10 hours to vote, while people in other communities often voted in minutes!

In 2004, I introduced legislation similar to the Count Every Vote Act. But it never saw the light of day. I couldn't even get a hearing for my bill before the Senate Rules Committee. We can't allow this new legislation to suffer the same fate.

The Republicans who control Congress don't want to address this issue. So we've got to build grassroots momentum to make sure they don't have any choice but to act. That's why I am determined to keep moving forward -- on the Hill, with advocacy groups, and with all of you!

http://www.friendsofhillary.com/CountEveryVote

Will you join me in calling for action to Count Every Vote? Will you sign up to become a citizen co-sponsor of this bill, so that we can demonstrate that the American people won't sit still for inaction on legislation so essential to our freedom?

Please forward this e-mail to your friends, and ask them to join us. Together, we will restore the credibility of American democracy, and make sure that we count every vote.

Sincerely,

Hillary Rodham Clinton"

[breadandwine]

301. I also got an email from Bill Clinton—

But it's about his foundation. I'm curious to know what he says about the rigged election.

[breadandwine]

302. I also got an email from Terry McAuliffe—

It's a farewell email in which he says goodbye and thanks to all. I still haven't gotten over Terry's uncalled for attack on MoveOn.org.

This latest email from Terry had, for me, one conspicuous feature: It said nothing, absolutely nothing, about the rigged election.

[breadandwine]

303. Dean sounding moderate—

Upon becoming chairman, Dean is sounding a bit like those he beat for the post. While I don't expect him to do otherwise while he consolidates his power, I am still not hearing about the rigged election from him. It will be interesting to see if he lets other people think for him. The closest he came in his "plan" to what I am looking for from him now is a promise to have a "permanent campaign," not just at election time. This is sort of like what MoveOn.org does and I hope he follows through on that.

[breadandwine]

304. More E-Vote shenanigans—

USA Today is reporting that:

“Repairs to the nation's voting system, already long overdue, are likely to remain uncompleted by the 2006 congressional elections, top state election officials warn. Hampered by delays in federal guidance and local political complications, officials say the lag could lead to problems in next year's voting. They also fear being penalized for missing deadlines to revamp their voting systems under a 2002 law that has doled out $2.2 billion so far to help them replace antiquated voting machines and improve voter-registration systems.”

[breadandwine]

305. Email from Howard Dean—

I just got an email from Chairman Howard Dean. He talks about his plan to "reform" the Democratic Party. He also provided a link where you can make comments. Here it is:

http://www.democrats.org/plan

This is a good place for us to express our demand that the DNC make a stink about election rigging.

[breadandwine]

306. Iran — Votergate speed bump???

Here's an interesting question: How will the Iranian nuclear situation affect efforts to make a stink about the rigged election? Bush during his inaugural was hinting about Iran and so was Cheney. But they seem to be pushing for world involvement or acquiescence and building that support will take time, especially since the Europeans are already trying to do business with the Iranians and don't feel much like going along with a military strike. Meanwhile, I am reading that the Israelis think that it is only a matter of months, maybe 6 months, before Iran's nuclear program gets so close to building a nuclear bomb that they have to take action on their own with little American assistance or at least little OVERT American assistance.

How does this relate to the rigged election? Simple. As usual, the Bush administration is trying to time its war moves to coincide with the next election. If that's their deadline they won't do anything for a while and will instead build world support for the war gradually. In which case the Israelis may do it on their own. In which case Bush will lose his popularity quick-fix of another war.

So: The worse the Iranian nuclear situation, the more likely the Israelis will act on their own soon. The better the Iranian nuclear situation, the more likely Bush will have time to do it his way and gain an issue for himself — which could smother the Votergate issue as well as other issues being used against him.

In other words, whether the rigged election becomes a big issue could depend on how fast the Iranians are going nuclear. If it's fast enough, the Israelis will take unilateral action on their own and rob Bush of a war issue.

[breadandwine]

307. Here’s another factor—

Russia’s Putin is now saying Iran is not trying to build a nuclear bomb. Of course it’s ridiculous. Iran has publicly admitted — officially — that they are enriching uranium. What do they intend to do —make muffins with it? Obviously Putin wants something in return for signing on to Bush’s Iran plans. Or perhaps Putin is doing business with the Iranians and doesn’t want to upset it. Either way, Putin’s declarations are another speed bump on Bush’s Iran objectives — more delay. Once again, that argues for the Israelis attacking Iran with little overt help from the U.S. And this could rob Bush of the war he needs to bury issues like Votergate.

[breadandwine]

308. Oops — now we know why—

Russia helped build an Iranian nuclear reactor and is now saying they will continue nuclear cooperation with Iran. Again: If the two leading nuclear powers can’t agree on Iran, that’s a speed bump in Bush’s war plans, and more likelihood Israel will act on their own against Iran and rob Bush of a war that could smother other issues like Votergate.

[breadandwine]

309. The flip side —

In interviews Friday with European journalists at the White House, Bush was asked about an opinion poll showing that 70 percent of Germans believe the U.S. is planning military action against Iran. “I hear all these rumors about military attacks, and it's just not the truth,” said Bush, who leaves Sunday for Europe to mend fences with allies. “We want diplomacy to work.”

Man, what a weak, feckless denial. I hear all these rumors! he says. What a joke! So maybe they are planning something soon.

But if the war plans are leaking out now, they have lost the element of surprise. They — or the Israelis — might still have to attack Iran soon. Which still means the attack will be long forgotten by the November 2006 elections.

In which case, again, Bush will not be able to use war to smother other issues like Votergate.

[northamericancitizen]

310. Thanks breadandwine for keeping this thread alive. n/t

[breadandwine]

311. Hey — you're welcome!

Keep it kickin'! Don't forget, some very important people read DU — including Senator Edwards' wife, and Randi Rhodes and Mike Malloy. And probably quite a few people on Capitol Hill. And then there's our new internet-savvy DNC chair, Howard Dean. They need to hear all our voices.

A kick a day keeps the fascists away........

[breadandwine]

312. What a ditzo brain —

Bush is in Europe to mend fences but he is all over the lot.

•Bush and Chirac of France dined on lobster risotto and filet of beef. Then, when asked if relations had improved to the point where Chirac might receive an invitation to Bush’s ranch, Bush said, “I’m looking for a good cowboy.” What a tactless dope.

• Despite the cordial meeting, Bush told Chirac the United States adamantly opposes Europe’s plans to lift its 15-year arms embargo against China.

•Bush told Syria to get out of Lebanon and demanded that Iran stop its suspected nuclear weapons program. Bush did not rule out using military force in Iran, saying all options remain on the table.

•Then came Bush’s little “who me?”: Addressing widespread concerns in Europe that Iran is the next U.S. target after Iraq, Bush said: “Iran is ... different from Iraq. We're in the early stages of diplomacy.”

•Bush admonished the Russian leader, Vladimir Putin, to “renew a commitment to democracy and the rule of law.” Putin has raised alarms in the West by consolidating power, rolling back democratic reforms and curbing press and political freedoms.

Bush outlined a White House checklist of actions for key players in the Middle East:

•Saudi Arabia should give its citizens more freedom.

•Egypt should expand democracy.

•Israel should freeze settlement activities.

Bush has also pushed Israel about getting out of Gaza. I know it’s politically incorrect to say this but Jews and Arabs in Gaza live in completely separate communities that do not impose on each other if both want to live in peace. Jews lived in Gaza continuously for thousands of years and only left during massacres in the last century. Bush’s push for all the Jews to get out of Gaza is pure ethnic cleansing and is only being pushed as “payment” to Saudi Arabia and the Europeans to make them happy with Bush’s warmongering in other places. It’s pure scapegoating.

•Bush also demanded withdrawal of Syrian soldiers from Lebanon. I might mention here that it was Bush’s daddy who let Syrian troops take over once-Christian Lebanon in the first place during the first Gulf War, as payment to Syria for its support for the war. Now Bush is telling the Syrians to get out.

Meanwhile, all 26 countries in NATO are expected to join together Tuesday in offering Baghdad help. Of course they will. Now that Bush did the dirty work in Iraq, all those countries want to make money in Iraq just like Bush does.

But what’s really going on here? What’s going on here is that, with a few rump-coverings, Bush is using his “fence-mending” trip in Europe to boss everybody around. Did you ever hear so much ordering around? Bush is not focused and he is all over the lot with a million goals he can’t all meet. The Europeans will get some money in Iraq and then claim they cooperated with Bush a little. But in the meantime Bush will have been so bossy on so many fronts that no one will want to cooperate with him in invading Iran, Bush’s real main objective. The result of all this is that Bush will have painted himself into a diplomatic corner, trying in vain to get world support for an invasion of Iran, and they aren’t going to want to go along.

This is a clear recipe for two conflicting timetables. Bush won’t be able to get a war going in Iran until nearly the 2006 elections. But the Israelis can’t wait that long because Iran will have passed the point of no return in their (publicly acknowledged) uranium enrichment in 6 months. Probably Israel will have to attack Iran by then.

And that will rob Bush of an election issue that could smother votergate and other things he is trying to bury.

So votergate and other Democratic issues remain viable.

[breadandwine]

313. Here's another Iran complication—

The pro-Iran Shiites did real well in the Iraq election. If they get control over the Iraq prime ministership or other powers they will put up a monkey wrench to Bush efforts to use Iraq as a staging area for an invasion of Iran. The more hassle Bush has, the more delay, and the more likely the Israelis will act on their own. If so, Bush loses a chance for war that could smother issues like votergate.

[breadandwine]

314. Bush getting antsy—

Man, was it something to look at the facial expressions of Bush and Condi in Europe. At times they looked like it was Panic City. The Europeans just won’t go along with any “united front” against Iran except diplomacy. The NY Times has reported that the Europeans are close to failure in their diplomatic efforts to stop Iranian uranium enrichment. But the Europeans are saying that unless the U.S. joins those diplomatic efforts, they will fail, which Bush won’t do, since that amounts to sucking up to a rogue state. For the Europeans this is code language for, “If we fail, we’re blaming it on the U.S.”

Bottom line? Underneath the comity there’s a lot of ice and the Europeans will use the blame game to avoid joining Bush’s war against Iran.

But meanwhile, Scott Ritter is saying Bush has already signed off on an invasion of Iran in June. Additionally, Bush has no choice since Iran is setting up an oil market that will be based on the Euro instead of the dollar in June. So in June BIG MONEY will be on the line.

Bush and Condi are squirming because it looks like they will have to go it alone on the Iran war. That means that to derail the Iranian nuclear program they will have to use a lot of forces now stationed in Iraq. (I doubt there will be a draft since it would take too long to train them by June.)

So Bush won’t be terribly popular in the world going it alone and the situation in Iraq will deteriorate as Bush thins out U.S. forces there to supply the war against Iran. It won’t be pretty and it won’t be terribly popular in the U.S. either.

The war in Iran will be long over by the time of the 2006 elections except for messy and embarrassing aftermath that won’t be tidy. And Bush won’t have a good issue for the election to smother issues like Votergate.

[breadandwine]

315. Dean peps up Cornell University—

At Cornell, Dean told an enthusiastic and energized student audience,

"If you want to sustain democracy, you have to run for office. If you don't want to run for office, then you have to work on someone's campaign."

Is this reference to the need to “sustain democracy” a hint at the rigged election? Is Dean driving toward an activism that includes demands for fair elections, or an activism that sweeps the election stealing under the rug lest it “discourage people”?

[breadandwine]

316. Bush for press constraints—

At a press conference with Russia’s Putin the other day, during a visit in which Bush chided Putin over suppression of a free press, a Russian journalist challenged Bush on his stand. Bush responded, I am not kidding,

“Obviously there has got to be constraints. There’s got to be truth.”

You heard it folks. Bush just said he is for constraints on the press. In the interest of TRUTH of course. And who is to decide what is the truth, Mr. Bush, you and your lying little puppet string shills in the media who you breathe on heavy to tote the official line? You whose CIA has hundreds of journalists on the CIA payroll? You whose little puppet Rupert Murdoch peddles your propaganda at your beck and call?

[breadandwine]

317. Suicide bombing in Tel Aviv Friday—

The bomber came from Tulkarm, a city Israel just agreed to vacate and which is under elected Palestinian Prime Minister Abbas’ jurisdiction. Abbas’s Al Aqsa Brigades claimed credit. So did others. Eventually Abbas got word to Al Aqsa to shut up. Sharon and Bush will put the best face on this, try to blame someone else, but the bottom line is that there is more to democracy than democracy alone. There also have to be human values. Hitler was elected too. He still killed 6 million Jews. This is one of the reasons why Bush’s plan to give democracy to the Middle East is like trying to put lipstick on a pig. Democracy was supposed to end terror but instead the suicide bombings in Israel have started up again after a hiatus and the Middle East “Road Map” peace plan is falling apart and is being called the “Road Crap.” Since Bush needs Israeli concessions to “prove” to the Arabs that he is not just anti-Arab when he invades Iran, this is another problem developing in the Iran invasion plan. It argues, once again, for Bush to invade Iran sooner rather than later before everything falls apart. And then hopefully the Iran war issue will have faded by the 2006 U.S. elections. Votergate and other potential Democratic issues thus remain viable and won’t be drowned out during the election by war fever. Bush will still try to wag the dog, but he will have to do it sooner than needed for election timing purposes or the dog will take a crap.

[breadandwine]

318. Big break for Bush war plans?

It is now being reported that the Iranians are now admitting that they discussed obtaining nuclear bomb technology from the Pakistanis, including the difficult-to-master process of casting uranium metal, which is not needed for nuclear power plants, but which is key to making the core of a uranium fission atomic bomb.

Now Bush can tell the Europeans we have to go to war with Iran. I still think this will happen in the summer, I think it HAS to happen in the summer not only in order to stop the Iranian nuke program before it goes too far but also because that’s when Iran starts its Euro-based oil market that Bush doesn’t want.

The result is that Bush will go to war and the war won’t be delayed. Europe won’t join the war effort much but may go along somewhat.

The big question now is how this will impact other campaign issues like votergate. A summer war is early. It will be old news by the time the 2006 election comes. The GOP can run on their Iran war “accomplishment.” Or they can wind up having painted themselves into a corner fiscally, with huge overseas burdens in Iraq and Iran jacking up the deficit.

The problem for the GOP is that Iran’s nuclear facilities are spread around, and some are underground. It will take a land invasion to get them all. If there is a land invasion the Bush foreign policy bureaucracy will want an occupation in order to facilitate their long-standing dream of “regime change” in Iran. And occupation is very expensive.

A big question is do the Democrats and Howard Dean have enough gumption to strip the Bush war of its glory by attacking the war’s inherent Achilles’ heel — its sucking the oxygen out of the budget? Dean talks about a “permanent campaign.” That’s what it will take to pound the GOP into the ground over the mushrooming deficit Bush is creating with his policies.

This war could also be messier than the Iraq war was. That doesn’t mean we won’t win fairly quickly, because of the huge American technological advantage. But although many Iranians would like a less extreme government they don’t hate their government in the same way Iraqis hated Saddam. And the Iranians also hate America more than the Iraqis did. The post-theocracy Iran may have even more attacks on U.S. forces than we have seen in Iraq.

Also, if there is a land invasion of Iran, there will be anti-war protests in the U.S. That is a golden opportunity to include in the protests chants and posters mentioning the rigged election.

[breadandwine]

319. MoveOn Votergate Petition—

MoveOn Pac, a MoveOn.org affiliate, has a votergate petition—

Repair the Vote!

Several great bills have just been introduced in Congress to repair the embarrassing flaws in our election system -- from electronic voting machines to long lines to partisan election officials. Everyone's waiting to see if this new legislation will pick up speed or fall victim to partisan bickering. We can give these bills the early momentum they need. There's no time to lose: In the coming months, states are poised to buy a billion dollars worth of unreliable electronic voting machines without paper trails.

Repair the Vote!

Doubt about the integrity of the electoral process undermines our democracy. To restore confidence in our vote, sign this petition to Congress demanding immediate electoral reform. Our goal is to deliver 200,000 signatures to Senators and Representatives when they return from their Presidents' Day recess. Our petition is:

“Congress must support electoral reforms such as guaranteeing paper receipts for electronic voting machines, providing remedies for long lines, and prohibiting partisan election officials.”

Sign the petition here:

http://www.moveonpac.org/repairthevote/

[breadandwine]

320. Ted Kennedy’s spicy language---

At Tom Daschle’s fairwell party last night, Ted Kennedy mustered some of his thunder to borrow from Oliver Wendell Holmes's "Old Ironsides," saying "Old Tom" was a "champion for working folk who will take their crap no more."

Unfortunately, Kennedy was using the sort of spicy language I never heard from Daschle. This is why I am not entirely sorry to see Daschle go. Unless we Democrats learn to belt the other side but good, we will always be their doormat.

This is true especially of the issue of the rigged election. It is not enough to whimper about it. You have to scream and fight and use savage language that really cuts.

[breadandwine]

321. What a chicken creep!

Bush turns chicken!

Note to Republican voters —

“Where is your swaggering president NOW?”

Looks like Bush is backing off on Iran. What a pathetic little lily liver! A chicken! A wimp! A fraidy cat! And if he delays, Israel may act unilaterally against Iran on their own, killing a war issue for Bush that could undermine issues like votergate.

Here’s the news:

Bush is now considering “incentives” to Iran to abandon its nuclear program. That’s called a bribe and it means he has decided to REWARD a rogue state after all, and one of the “axis of evil” countries he said he was so against. The rewards are reported to include offering to let Iran into the World Trade Organization. Also letting Iran purchase civilian airplane parts.

Bush’s aides say the move will help “prove” to the Europeans that Iran is bent on producing nuclear weapons under guise of a civilian program and that the Iranians will double cross anyone sending them gifts. So this “carrot” approach is supposed to soon prove that only concerted international pressure in the form of a "stick" — sanctions, not inducements, has any chance of resolving the row peacefully.

In other words, they are deliberately going to do something they think won’t work so that after Iran continues its nuclear program ANYWAY, they can tell the Europeans, “Look. It didn’t work. Now we have to make a united stand to punish Iran.”

Doesn’t that sound clever? Nope. It sounds like Bush is caving in to the Iranians AND the Europeans and putting the best face on it.

So much for our “John Wayne” president. Bush has gone back to wearing his cheerleader outfit.

[breadandwine]

322. GOP Psycho-ville-----

It's just been reported that Fed Chairman (and Republican) Alan Greenspan has endorsed a consumption tax, one of the pet ideas of some of Bush's advisors.

That means a tax on everything, everything you buy from toothpaste to toasters to tomatoes.

I thought the Republicans were against taxes. A consumption tax is really nine bezillion new taxes. But since the rich have more money than they can spend, this tax favors the rich. Since it's a tax on what you spend instead of on what you earn or own.

Greenspan says this would encourage less spending and more saving and investing. He is a Republican prostitute. Greenspan is a chamelion who goes along with any current policy. Greenspan is too intelligent to believe that stifling consumption in our struggling economy ---which is 2/3 consumer spending---will do anything but harm.

So the Republicans are backing a million new taxes. if Democrats don't nail them on this they're crazy. If the media doesn't cover such criticism, it only proves how bad the media is, as we have discussed above.

[breadandwine]

323. Iran building 1/2 km deep tunnels—

Latest reports are that Iran is building underground tunnels that are half a kilometer deep. Obviously these are to evade bunker-busting bombs, which can’t penetrate that deep. The U.S. recently sold Israel bunker-busting bombs but with these deep tunnels they are now useless. The purpose of the tunnels is obviously to protect nuclear equipment and bombs. This is another reason that both Israel and the U.S. have run out of time on Iran. Also, Russia is giving Iran an anti-missile shield for its nuclear facilities. All this argues for a messy, early fight, a land invasion by the U.S., not just air strikes, probably with limited international support. Bush won’t get the political boost he is hoping for, for two reasons. First, he’ll have to act earlier than he wants to with respect to the 06 elections. Secondly, he’ll have to invade before clearly preparing the endgame and aftermath. That means more insurrection in Iran, Iraq-style, and lots of dead Americans, tragically. Third, Fox News is talking now about the need for a draft. This is code language from the Bush shills that the Bush White House secretly wants to prepare the country for a draft. So there might be a draft, or certainly a “backdoor draft,” and calls for a draft, and more public resentment in the U.S. against Bush. The result will be that other issues, including Votergate and the Democratic issues in general, remain viable.

[breadandwine]

324. Iranian baaaaaaad attitude—

Man, the coin flips every day. Iran just announced that they will never permanently halt uranium enrichment and won’t go along with European demands. They just said they will cut off all talks with the Europeans if there is no “progress” in their talks with the Europeans by the time of an upcoming meeting with the Europeans on March 16. The “progress” they are seeking, which the Europeans will never grant, is the right to go on enriching uranium. So the whole thing is about to come to a head and Bush is about to get the Europeans on his side on March 16 when the Iranians tell the Europeans to get lost despite their attempt at a negotiated solution. Looks now like Bush is going to get his war with Iran. Let’s hope it doesn’t drown out issues like Votergate and other Democratic concerns. But on the positive side, the Iranians are being very stupid. They’re asking for the West to go to war with them, and early. The timing is wrong for the GOP in 2006. This may all come to a head much sooner than that.

[breadandwine]

325. Democrats regaining their voice?

As Alan Greenspan nears retirement, Democrats are giving him withering fire for sucking up to Bush once again, this time on Social Security.

"I'm not a Greenspan fan," Senate Democratic leader Harry Reid said on CNN last week. "I think he's one of the biggest political hacks we have in Washington."

Wow. A Senate Democratic leader calling Greenspan a “political hack”? That’s not exactly the stodgy mealy mouthing we used to hear from Daschle.

Now if only we can hear the same kind of feisty language about election rigging.

[breadandwine]

326. Signs of life at DNC---

At the DNC website they have a couple of new radio ads against Bush that really go for the jugular. If only they could now do the same thing against election rigging.

http://www.democrats.org/audio/ad20050303/

[northamericancitizen]

327. From my point of view: in Québec, Canada , the subject of the

stolen elections is way, way, forgotten. Its not on the front page anymore.

Today,March 9th,I kind of agree with them.

Sorry.

I think the battle has to be fought somewhere else and with a different angle.

Which angle I am not sure yet. I am still, busy reading the posts all over DU and on some others liberal sources.

Man, I read about despair, cynicism, wishful thinking, realistic comments, and plain stupidity about what you guys have to fight against.

I will keep on kicking this thread till I get an idea about what other concrete actions I can do to get rid of the bushcos.


lise

[breadandwine]

328. Lise, I wouldn’t get too down if I were you.

Some of the people who are “depressed” are paid shills who are there to ruin things. In the United States websites get infiltrated just like organizations. It’s par for the course here.

This isn’t the only place where people talk about the rigged election. It’s just the one where I happen to be trying to do my little part. There are internet and radio talk hosts beating the drums about it. There are now several Democratic senators demanding reform of the voting process and introducing legislation, including Hilary Clinton. There were Democrats on Capitol Hill who forced a debate on the House floor about the rigged election and it was public and pretty fiery.

That’s still not marching in the street, but it’s not nothing either.

In the United States things don’t just happen from a mass groundswell. Very often the truth “breaks through” with some disclosure or expose that becomes a scandal. The rigged election is a scandal waiting to break. In its good sweet time this will happen.

We just need to hang in there and do our little part.

Just to give you an example of how these things can change, there was a guy named Whitfield Diffie who was concerned that the government could snoop on anybody’s electronic communications. He went all over the country in an old car with his girlfriend trying to interview government officials about it, officials who were mostly terrified to talk to him. Eventually he invented Public Key Encryption, a way of coding electronic communications that makes it harder for the government to snoop and which is now used all over, in banks, computer programs, everything. The government and the intelligence community hate him. They tried to crush him. And they failed. Even though he was a loner completely alone who nobody would listen to.

The spoilsports are just miserable losers with nothing better to do than make others feel bad. Don’t listen to them. They’re the real losers. They couldn’t get a job doing anything except making other people feel bad.

Keep your spirits up and hang in there. There will be some opening, some break in the brick wall, and we will win.

[breadandwine]

329. Oh look.

Right after Hezbollah, the terror organization, just held huge demonstrations in Lebanon, the Bush Administration caved and just told Hezbollah that they can play a role in democratic elections in Lebanon.

How is Bush going to justify equating raving lunatics with democrats defending civil liberties and justice?

Wasn’t Bush supposed to be AGAINST terrorists?

Hezbollah are Shiites. The Shiites also just won the elections in Iraq. The Shiites are theocrats fanatically aligned with the Iranians especially.

Do you see democracy spreading? Or theocratic jihad?

[trudyco]

330. Maybe an expert can correct me if I'm wrong but Shiites are not

fanatical theocrats. Back in the days of the Shah the Iranian Shiites on our college campus were the most progressive (at least for women's rights and thats where a lot of the muslim/west disagreements boil down to). Wahabiism I think is pretty fundamentalist, but then Wahabiis are Saudi Arabians and its hard to say if its the religious group or the country that is so conservative. The ruling class is obviously not so conservative there.

You've got religious whackos in every religious denomination. Sometimes the whole group is whacko. But I don't think thats the case with Shiites.

[breadandwine]

331. Trudyco, please note:

Iranian president Khatami’s “policies of reform have led to repeated clashes with the hardline and conservative Islamists in the Iranian government, who control powerful governmental organizations like the Guardian Council whose members are appointed by the Supreme Leader.” (Wikipedia article on Iran.) Perhaps you’ve been brainwashed by the Bush “democracy is spreading” crap. The Guardian Council is not elected and is dominated by Islamic clerics. The council can overturn and abolish any law it deems to be against Islamic Law. There are also lawyers on the council, but only the Islamic clerics on the council get to vote on whether a law is compatible with Islam. Islamists also have veto over who gets to run for office.

Since the overthrow of the Shah, Iran has been a theocratic state. It has not stopped being a theocratic state.

As for whether they are fanatical, I can give you a few items about that too if you like. For instance, Ayatollah Khomeini, arguably the most famous Shiite, said, “I love to hang people from cranes, because they twist so prettily in the wind. And I love things of beauty, which are so rare in this sinful world.” He also said, “A woman’s skin is as smooth as the skin of a locust that has not yet grown wings. But I desire it not, and anyone who says otherwise shall be burned alive in a hijacked airliner.”

You’ve missed the real news here, Trudyco. Bush is not fighting terrorism, couldn’t care less about fighting terrorism or the fanatics behind it, and admitted on camera that he didn’t care about catching Osama Bin Laden. He also doesn’t care about democracy and his real objectives are oil-related and mercantilist. Incidentally, Bush himself is a bit of a fanatic theocrat, which might leave him feeling a little confused about the world.

[breadandwine]

332. Wow! NY Times Nails Fox & Bush!

The New York Times has reported in a big lead expose that the Bush administration, including the Bush State Department and other Bush departments and subcontractors for the Bush Administration, have for FOUR YEARS been creating fake news broadcasts under false names, filming them and distributing this filthy propaganda as “news” to TV stations around the country, including FOX affiliates.

One FOX reporter who quit said she had no idea that the film or the text she was told to read actually came from the Bush Administration and she expressed her disgust.

In other cases the local stations have the government department record a bogus “sign off” making the report sound as if it came from the local station and not the government, to make the station look good.

One of the Bush propaganda pieces came from the Agriculture Department and gushed with praise over how the Bush Administration had helped clean up after the hurricane in — where else? — Florida (Jeb country).

According to the Times article, the Bush Administration also now has a Pentagon Channel and the Army and Air Force Hometown News Service, both of which provide fake news to local TV stations via satellite. This provides propaganda stories to millions of viewers without identifying the reporter as a member of the military or identifying his military rank. According to the Times, this Bush TV propaganda included film reports designed to whitewash the Abu Ghraib prison torture scandal.

This Times expose is a very big break in the wall of silence and officialdom.

Hooray! NAIL ‘em!!!!!!!!!

[breadandwine]

333. GAO says White House propaganda illegal—

According to the Associated Press the White House is now defending its propaganda videos. But the Government Accounting Office, the investigative arm of Congress, says that video news releases amount to illegal “covert propaganda” when they fail to make plain that the government is behind the releases.

[breadandwine]

334. I just got a Howard Dean email—

He notes that in the O4 election, Democratic candidates for the Senate received over 4 million more votes than Republicans got. And that’s the official count, not the true numbers (which were rigged and tampered with). One more example of our rigged voting system.

[breadandwine]

337. Hm. GOP cuts funding for democracy.

Washington Post says that after Bush promised $60 million for the fledgling Ukrainian democracy, the Republicans on Capitol Hill cut it to $33.7 million. Why should Bush care? He got his photo-op, didn’t he?

[breadandwine]

338. What the hooziebonkers is going on in Afghanistan????

NY Times is reporting that WITH ENTHUSIASTIC US GOVERNMENT SUPPORT the American-installed Afghan government of Hamid Karzai is now inviting the Taliban back to Afghanistan from its hideouts in Pakistan under an “amnesty” program intended to achieve “national reconciliation.” Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

The US also has a program of its own along these lines, laughably called the “Allegiance Program,” in which it is accepting fighters linked to the Taliban back into the country provided they take an oath of allegiance to the Afghan government. In return for this preposterous “I promise to be good,” they are then given an “identification card” to “guarantee their safety.”

Are these people all morons? This is democracy????? Are these people all crazy? These are the same people who coddled Osama bin Laden — who destroyed the World Trade Center — and Bush is letting them back in? He never caught Osama, never finished the job, went off on a tangent in Iraq, and now he is letting the anti-democratic Taliban come back. And this is democracy?

[breadandwine]

342. Look. Democracy is spreading!

My my.... Seems there’s a new — rigged — election everywhere you look. Washington Post is reporting that “Thousands of protesters demanding the resignation of Kyrgyzstan’s president over allegedly fraudulent elections rampaged through a southern city Sunday, burning down a police station and occupying government buildings.”

[breadandwine]

343. MoveOn---

I see more stuff on the MoveOn.org website about bills in Congress about reforming the electronic voting. The site has a petition. Is it just me, or does MoveOn have a stars in their eyes about some of their petitions? I remember reading an article once about Eli Pariser of MoveOn wheeling to the Post Office piles of petitions to Bush over some issue. Is this kid aware that petitions to the Bush White House accomplish exactly zero? Hopefully this new petition will impact Congress.

[breadandwine]

344. More democracy protests in Kyrgyzstan-—

AP is reporting that Protesters stormed the presidential compound in Kyrgyzstan on Thursday, seizing control of the symbol of state power after clashing with riot police who had surrounded it during a large opposition rally. The defense minister was led out of the building by demonstrators.

[breadandwine]

345. Kyrgyzstan Government Collapses---

AP is reporting that President Askar Akayev's government collapsed Thursday after opposition protesters took over the presidential compound and government offices, throwing computers and air conditioners out of windows in a frenzy of anger over corruption and a disputed election.

[breadandwine]

346. Why did the democracy movement in Kyrgyzstan succeed?

Why did it succeed so fast, so suddenly, so unexpectedly? The protests there were disorganized and held amidst government threats to use force. So why didn’t the government use force already and crush the protests? In my view this is one of the interesting questions about a country where there had been a fake or fraudulent election. It seems to me a lot of the answer has to do with the subtle interplay between reality and impressions. A nation that claims to be democratic but is not has to put on at least a semblance of freedom even if it is only a façade. That façade may still give democracy activists enough freedom to avoid being crushed.

This may offer hope to a country like ours. Despite years of election and media rigging, the façade that we are a truly democratic nation may ultimately offer enough restraint to allow democratic forces in the United States to triumph in the end. I take the events in Kyrgyzstan as a cause for hope. Kyrgyzstan is a former Soviet state and there are other former Soviet states that may also get democracy movements. How long will it be before Americans take the example from overseas and demand a true democracy here?

[breadandwine]

347. What is Bush doing in the subcontinent?

The Bush administration just announced the sale of F-16 jets to Pakistan after a 15-year ban that was started by President Clinton, underscored by Pakistan’s testing of nuclear weapons, which President Clinton pleaded with them not to do. In a corrupt and dangerous game, Bush now also agreed to help India with civilian nuclear technology. India also has the atomic bomb. The jets to Pakistan are a major policy shift, however, intended supposedly to reward Pakistan for fighting terror.

Oh yeah? Where’s Osama? Probably over the border from Afghanistan hiding inside Pakistan right now.

The generals of Pakistan are nuts. They have periodically threatened to start a nuclear war with India, something the Indians have not been so brazen to say. The Pakistanis have repeatedly also started border skirmishes with India.

The Republicans always favor the Pakistanis, no matter the risk. They did it when fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan and used Pakistan then as a conduit to terrorists like Bin Laden — to fight the Soviets. The Republican aiding of Pakistan probably contributed to their getting nuclear arms.

But now Bush is giving nuclear assistance to India. Of course, it is nonsense to call this civilian. Bush is assisting India with its own atomic bomb program. Bush is heating things up between the two countries dangerously.

It should be noted that a nuclear-armed India and Pakistan may also have repercussions in terms of convention-armed conflicts there. Pakistan could attack India with conventional weapons — as it has done in the past. But now, with Pakistan possessing nuclear arms, any retaliation against Pakistan by India, especially a retaliation penetrating deep into their borders, could result in a Pakistani nuclear “defensive response.” They could use nuclear weapons and claim they were “acting in self-defense.” So the whole thing becomes a very dangerous game in which Pakistan has more latitude to use conventional weapons against India and get away with it.

And Bush just gave Pakistan conventional weapons — F-16s.

As for the nuclear technology to India, that is also a dangerous game although the Indians already have the bomb. So to some extent this is actually a “consolation prize” to India for losing out to the Pakistanis in a pro-Pakistani policy shift by the Bush Administration. (At the same time, how does Bush complain about Iran’s nuclear program while giving nuclear technology at this time to India? Won’t the Iranians use this as in defense of their own nuclear program?)

And here’s the implication from the standpoint of free elections:

India is a democracy.

Pakistan is not a democracy.

But Pakistan has a fanatic jihadist populace seething with admiration for Osama Bin Laden. It has repeatedly been warned that this population is ripe to overthrow the military government of Pakistan. Then you will have a Taliban-type government with nuclear weapons. Further complicating this is the fact that such a new jihadist government could easily hold elections and well might. Many in Pakistan dislike the military government there. The government to replace it might well be democratic in response. Why not? If a jihadist government allows a jihadist population to vote, they can feel confident that the population will vote for jihad.

The Pakistani POPULATION is much more nuts than its current military government, and if it ever got its hands on the military government’s nuclear arms, it would be itching to use them against — the infidels.

Pakistan is a perfect example of a country you do NOT want to get a democratic government. They will VOTE to nuke everybody. And all these nuts are dreaming of doing just that. But Bush giving F-16s to Pakistan only whets the appetites of those who think they would be able to get away with greater hostilities with India — and could implement such a policy change by overthrowing the Pakistani government with a “democratic” government. By whetting the appetites of these fanatics with arms shipments, Bush is actually destabilizing Pakistan, Taliban-wise, and encouraging nuclear war there.

This is another example of Bush’s demented, fractured approach to “democracy” and foreign policy in general.

[breadandwine]

348. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

It is now being reported on AFP that far from supporting the democracy movement that just overthrew the fraudulent election and government in Kyrgyzstan, the U.S. government was actually caught flat-footed because all their political planning for Kyrgyzstan was dependent on the corrupt government staying in power there so they could work with it and deal with its departments, etc. We finally get a real democratic uprising and Bush is on the wrong side of it, naturally. The fallen President Askar Akayev was a favorite of Washington and he allowed a U.S. base in his country. So the Bush Administration has not withdrawn its support for him even though he fled. This is a former Soviet republic that was a virtual holdover from the Soviet era. If Bush can’t support democracy in a country like that he is no better than the communists.

[breadandwine]

349. Paul Krugman has an interesting column in today’s NY Times—

He is warning against the danger religious extremists pose to democracy, something I’ve spoken of. And here’s the cute part. He isn’t talking about Iraq or Iran or Afghanistan.

He’s talking about the United States.

[breadandwine]

350. Bush town meeting ejects “potential disrupters” —

Washington Post is reporting that three Denver residents attending a Bush town meeting were ejected by Republican staffers because they had a “No more blood for oil” bumper sticker on their car. They had not been disruptive. Their attorney charged that their free speech rights were violated.

[breadandwine]

351. In America law abiding citizens have the right to remain silent.

Anything they say can and will be used against them.

[breadandwine]

352. Damning report says U.S. knows “disturbingly little”

about nuclear and biological threats from dangerous adversaries. This presidential commission charge obviously has to include Iran, officially threat number one. How Bush can go to war now in Iran when we don’t know WHAT’S going on is a mystery. His own commission condemned his Iraq intelligence and is now saying we know next to nothing about nuclear threats in general. This is a huge speed bump for the Bush war plans for Iran and offers more hope that the Israelis will upstage Bush in going after Iranian nukes and rob Bush of the issue he needs to suck the oxygen out of votergate and all the other Democratic issues.

[breadandwine]

353. (Rigged) democracy marching on!

The New York Times is now reporting that in Zimbabwe the opposition is charging that elections just held there were rigged by the ruling party, which stole the election. They said that their party would not contest the result in court, as they did in 2000 and 2002 elections, which most outside observers called fraudulent. Instead, they appeared to leave open the prospect of taking to take to the streets in protest.

[Cuban_Liberal]

354. Is there a point at which you'll finally let this post die?

Good grief!

:wtf:

[breadandwine]

356. I guess American democracy doesn’t matter to some people, Cuban.

N/t.

[Theres-a]

355. kick

[breadandwine]

357. Ha ha ha! Rupert Murdoch up the creek—

Rupert Murdoch's New York Post and arch-rival New York Daily News are trading accusations about the accuracy of their circulation counting methods. In stories last week, both tabloids said they found unread and undelivered copies of each other's papers dumped in vacant lots or in garbage bins, raising questions about whether those papers are being tallied as part of circulation. Each has sent out photographers to document red plastic bags of newspapers strewn outside a house in the borough of Queens or piles of papers dumped into trashcans at a ferry terminal in New Jersey.

This is part of Murdoch's vulnerability. If there is an anit-Votergate rally in New York outside Murdoch's headquarters, in this cutthroat environment other tabloids would eat up such a rally at Murdoch's digs.

[breadandwine]

358. Kyrgyzstan President Askar Akayev resigns—

This is the last key event in the democratic struggle there. Akayev had fled without signing a resignation. Now that he has he’s officially out and democratic forces can take over there.

[breadandwine]

359. Democracy protests begin in Zimbabwe—

Hundreds of supporters of Zimbabwe's political opposition marched in Harare to protest what they called the fraudulent victory of President Robert G. Mugabe's ruling party in Thursday's parliamentary elections. There were conflicting reports on whether the police broke up the protest - a promise Mr. Mugabe made for dealing with demonstrations - or whether the marchers fled before they could be arrested. An official of the opposition party, the Movement for Democratic Change, said that the police arrested 5 to 10 protesters, a number that could not be confirmed. Nevertheless, the opposition says protests will continue.

One of the charges being made by the opposition is that thousands of voters were turned away from the polls on technicalities.

Sound familiar?

[breadandwine]

364. More shades of theocracy vs. democracy—

Zimbabwe’s President Mugabe, who is accused of stealing recent elections including the one just held, just arrived in Rome, bypassing European Union restrictions on his travel. Although the European Union wants to restrict his movements on their soil as an opponent of democracy, diplomatic protocol requires them to allow him passage through Rome en route to the Pope’s funeral in the Vatican. Mugabe is Catholic. Also, the Vatican is not a member of the European Union, so the Vatican is not subject to European Union sanctions. While in Rome, Mugabe also plans to meet with business leaders, for trade, not religious, objectives.

[breadandwine]

360. Hm. Cheney and Bill Frist are distancing themselves from Tom DeLay.

DeLay wants to take revenge on liberal judges.

Dang! If DeLay embarrasses the GOP, that’ll give more work to the election riggers in 2006!

[xxqqqzme]

361. kick?

hey, I just noticed I had added nothing 2 this thread even though it was probably this thread that got me 2 go 2 trek across the country 2 DC on Jan 6.

Just wanted 2 say, "Thanx".

[breadandwine]

362. Thanks, xxqqqzme.

This is not over. In country after country there is a new kind of democracy movement — people protesting not merely for democracy, but protesting fraudulent democracy. No matter how "hopeless" the whole thing may be to some ("the 04 election is over" blah blah, etc.), the fact that many fascists now feel the need to "fake" democracy shows how much power democracy really has. Today these democracy movements are overseas. Eventually the movement will come here to the U.S. There will be protests here for democracy too.

[RBHam]

363. Rigged election whistleblower suicided.

The BFEE get away with murder again.

And the rigged software story continues to be suppressed.

http://www.bradblog.com/archives/00001243.htm

original thread
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3445965

[breadandwine]

365. Thanks.

N/t.

[breadandwine]

366. Hooray! Kerry lets loose on the rigged election!

The NY Times is reporting:

Many voters in last year’s election were denied access to the polls through trickery and intimidation, Senator John Kerry of Massachusetts told a voters’ group on Sunday. “Last year, too many people were denied their right to vote; too many who tried to vote were intimidated,” Mr. Kerry said at an event sponsored by the League of Women Voters of Massachusetts. He cited examples of trickery. “Leaflets are handed out saying Democrats vote on Wednesday, Republicans vote on Tuesday,” Mr. Kerry said. “People are told in telephone calls that if you’ve ever had a parking ticket, you’re not allowed to vote.”

[breadandwine]

369. Wow. Bush approval rating sinks to 45% —

Let’s hope his sinking numbers put a damper on things enough to keep issues like the rigged election alive. A weakened Bush helps embolden Democrats on all manner of issues.

And this is a Gallup Poll that says Bush is down to 45%. Gallup is run by a religious fanatic (son of the earlier Gallup) who was a poll-rigging shill for Bush during the campaign. MoveOn took out a big New York Times ad during the campaign challenging Gallup’s phony numbers.

If Gallup says Bush is down to 45%, Bush might even be lower than that. (Or maybe Gallup got chicken?)

[breadandwine]

370. More wrangling over voting “procedures” —

States and counties are quarreling over ballot counting, voting equipment and control of voter information as time runs out for complying with the election-overhaul law enacted after the fiasco in Florida in 2000. Disputes have erupted in at least four states over the Help America Vote Act, intended to update election systems after the punch-card disaster in Florida.

With all this chaos and disorganization, who will establish ORDER?

Why, the fascists with their rigged and hackable computers of course.

They will HELP America vote RIGHT.

[breadandwine]

371. Computers have rights too, ya know.

N/t.

[breadandwine]

372. Indiana rounding up the Democrats —

Indiana's legislature just passed a bogus "anti-voter fraud" bill requiring voters to have photo I.D. This is to perpetuate the GOP hysteria in the last election that "unauthorized" people (i.e., Democrats) were voting. We all remember how GOP thugs were rushing up to black people and demanding their I.D. in an effort to intimidate and prevent people from voting. Fact is, lots of states don't require voters I.D.s and voting still goes fine. Usually the voter just signs his name in a space next to places where he signed in previous years. It's pretty reliable, because forging a signature isn't that easy. But this is a witch hunt in Indiana. And I will bet that when Indianans next vote, officials will be demanding to see the I.D.'s of blacks, not whites, in an effort to depress Democratic voting. Democrats who forgot to take their wallet to the polls will get the shaft.

[breadandwine]

373. Bush stock market falling—

Man, the stock market just fell triple digits on each of the last three days including today, worst market showing since November. It’s even having a ripple effect overseas.

The Dow fell 198 points after an already uneasy market was disappointed with the latest economic news. The Federal Reserve reported drops in manufacturing and other industrial production, while a Labor Department report also showed higher oil costs driving up import prices and worsening Wall Street's chronic inflation worries.

In other words, our oil president is giving us stagflation.

Usually a bad economy either has inflation (overheating) or industrial stagnation (underheating). You are one really messed up president if you have both — “stagflation.”

Sorry for all the people losing their shirts, but bad economic news is a disgrace for Bush after 4 years in which he should have gotten the economy on track. More reason for Democratic hopes on all issues, including votergate. A bad day for Bush is a good day for the rest of us.

[breadandwine]

374. One big factor in the stock and economic jitters —

is that consumer confidence has slumped. That is partly due to consumer anxiety about rising oil prices. But it should be mentioned that consumer confidence is a highly political-related factor. Consumer confidence is literally determined by taking a poll. And stocks fell in part because consumers polled say they lack confidence. So the stock jitters on Friday are partly driven by sour public sentiment, even as those stock jitters themselves can fuel further sour public sentiment in a potential political spiral.

Fortunately, it does not appear that consumer confidence polling has been rigged…

[breadandwine]

375. G7 to bail out Bush?

Or screw him?

Who can say?

The G7 nations are now talking about trying to calm jittery markets by promoting energy conservation to counteract high oil prices. If this bails out the bad economy it could bail out the Election Rigger In Chief. But what's he gonna tell his oil buddies? Decisions, decisions....

[breadandwine]

376. Ecuador prez faces impeachment—

Ecuador's opposition parties in Congress will try to oust President Lucio Gutierrez for meddling in the country's courts, congressional leaders said on Monday as thousands protested against the government. "He's on his own and we need an impeachment to get rid of him," said Carlos Gonzalez, a congressmen with Democratic Left, one of the main opposition parties. Opposition parties accuse Gutierrez, a former army colonel once jailed for a coup attempt, of behaving like a dictator by stacking the Supreme Court with his allies last December.

Another sign that democracy is alive, at least overseas.

[breadandwine]

377. Ecuador's Congress just dismissed the Supreme Court—

that had been stacked by Ecuador's president.

But it still doesn't end the political crisis.

Congress is still hoping to sack the president.

[breadandwine]

378. Italy’s Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi just resigned—

although he will still try to cobble together a new governing caretaker coalition, after his government was rocked by poor results in recent regional elections. Berlusconi has included in his government actual Fascists. No, I do not mean the term symbolically or metaphorically. Members of the actual Fascist movement from Mussolini’s time were members of Berlusconi’s government. Any way you slice it, this is a very good day for Italy. And for the future of democracy and free elections there, I hope.

[breadandwine]

379. Berlusconi to form new Italian government—

He announced his intention to stay on despite his resignation, with a new coalition that will be different from the one he had, since some of his coalition partners quit after the repudiation of Berlusconi in local elections two weeks ago. Reports say Berlusconi appeared confident but it was clear that keeping a new government afloat until his term expires next year will entail traversing a “political minefield.”

It seems some autocrats are getting their comeuppance, but not in the U.S. Still, it’s encouraging to see.

[LatePeriduct]

380. Dropping subtle vague hints? How about we just blow the lid off instead...

I like your way of thinking, and instead of dropping subtle hints let me do the same thing and blow the lid clear off this sham of lying fascists

Bruce Eberle Exposed

http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=%22Bruce+w.+Eberle%22+cnp&ei=UTF-8&fr=FP-tab-web-t&fl=0&x=wrt

The Religious Right's plot: Bruce Eberle planning for 'Jeff Gannon'

http://www.prwatch.org/prwissues/2002Q1/hacks.html

http://www.hillary.org/forums/Hillary_Clinton_Forum_1188.html

"Seeking new lawyers, Paula spoke with Ann Coulter (conservative atty & commentator), who had been in contact with the "elves" (group of attys who were conservatives, that had been assisting Davis & Cammarata all along). A new legal team was assembled for Paula by the Rutherford Institute, a religious right legal foundation, based in Charlottesville, VA. Its leader was former Jerry Falwell aide, John Whitehead.

-break-

"Meanwhile, Whitehead found out that his donations were slim due to fundraising efforts by Bruce W. Eberle, a conservative fundraiser hired by Paula's family, for the Paula Jones Legal Fund. The Fund was originally run by Cindy Hays, a GOP fundraiser and friend of Gil Davis, (her first atty). (p.116) Paula was told by Cindy that she could legitimately spend lots of this money for personal use, like hairstyles, travel, hotel costs, etc, ---- but later, lawsuits & IRS audits forced her to pay back $20,000.

"Nobody seems to be able to recollect when Bruce Eberle entered this effort, & documents are being held in confidence by his attys. Paula says she does not remember how she & Eberle got connected. But some documents suggest that the Jones camp "had ties to orgn's & individuals connected with Richard Mellon Scaife, the notorious Clinton-hating Pittsburgh billionaire". For instance, there are 2 photocopies of checks sent to the PJones Legal Fund in Oct & Nov 1995, by FLAG, (Fund for Living American Govt) a "charity" group in Wash DC, that is run by William J. Lehrfeld, (a Scaife atty). The amt of the check was $50,000, along with a note to PJ's atty that FLAG expected to be furnished with "suitable acctg of the fund's fees, expenses, & costs".

"Also, in this file was a letter from the SouthEastern Legal Foundation, (conservative legal group) that is funded by Scaife. The note praised Eberle for his work for SELF, and its star client, Gary Aldrich. (who was an FBI agent that wrote a book about his service in the Clinton White House (that was mostly fiction). Eberle donated $100,000 to the PJ Fund himself, and promised to raise over $300,000 later.""

http://www.pcactionfund.org/stepasideashcroft/letter01-15-04.htm

"Lauch Faircloth has always been openly opposed to allowing all Americans to vote. Lauch Faircloth has alwasy been openly opposed
to allowing all Americans to vote. He is a leader of CNP, the
Christian reconstructionists who believe only Christians should be allowed to vote. How can a voting machine company have so many executives line up behind a candidate who is opposed to counting all the votes? "

http://chalktalk.typepad.com/chalk_talk/2003/09/diebold_executi.html

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Atlantis/8616/reconstructionists.html

Let me blow the lid off permanently here....

"The corporate officers are as thick as thieves with the Republican hard right religious nut division. For those who have been lucky enough to forget, Senator Faircloth was the protege of Jesse Helms in NC. It looks like the board and the directors were all putting up money for a Faircloth victory when Edwards took that senate seat. I wonder if they conspired to put things right.....?

"Don't just scan over the following list of Diebold's board and officers - look for patterns. Why were they all so set on Faircloth, Voinowhasit and DeWine? This looks too bizarre for words. Did they have some litmus test that required donations to these ultra right wing loonies?"

http://cronus.com/electionfraud

Who's paying the bills for Senator Faircloth and the rest of the upper council?

The Council For National Policy also known by many aliases including National Prayer Breakfast Network, Fellowship Foundation, The Family, and "The Theocratic Cult" or how about we just say......Dominionists of the new Era who come from Arlington, Virginia. Their full unfiltered world can be read in bold detail also on http://www.yuricareport.com

Just where did I find this evidence regarding Voinovich, Diebold, and this other woman? From a secretive front group called the WATR who has the inside scoop on everything......

Breadandwine, I can give you a video unedited and authentic that will make you scream.

I have the inside scoop on something you are aching for, one of the members of our team has scanned and recorded all the documents regarding this cult from the last 20 years. Real, full unedited documents.. They come from real books and records but nobody has been able to release them to the public....

If you want to hear all about it, just PM me as soon as possible I can get you the full scoop. The problem here is they are all under attack, being threatened, and I also have the original index numbers for the evidence saved somewhere.

Want the source that exposes the right-wing conspiracy for good? I can get it to you, but I have this caution: Beware of these thugs, people have been attacked by the FBI for recovering these books.

Oh yeah, we should all march against the cult and get into the streets and I say, march with John Kerry!

Sign everyone up its about time....

[breadandwine]

381. LatePeriduct, thanks for all that.

N/t.

[LatePeriduct]

382. No problem. n/t

Informed public is a protected public, first law of dynamics.