Vietnam and Iraq: Really, do the Comparison

[laura888]

Insurgents = north vietnamese
Iraqis = south vietnamese

really comes down to: we're saving them from themselves.

Watch "Apocolyspse Now" NOW on AMC!

[iamjoy]

1. Big Difference!

I mean, there is one difference between Vietnam and Iraq.....







George W. Bush had a plan to get out of Vietnam.

[Cleita]

4. Funny LOL

[FULL_METAL_HAT]

2. Apocalypse Iraq!

Maybe even right now there is there a "Colonel Kurtz" somewhere there in Iraq! What might a modern day retelling be like? Who'd take the place of Martin Sheen as Captain Willard?

Oh wait, I just realized that Marlon Brando's part as Kurtz is already being reprised as we speak by * himself!

All the best,

FULL_METAL_HAT

This is my computer. There are many like it, but this one is mine. My computer is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it, as I must master my life. Without me my computer is useless. Without my computer, I am useless. I must fire my computer true. I must shoot straighter than my enemy who is trying to kill me. I must shoot him before he shoots me. I will. Before God I swear this creed. My computer and myself are defenders of my country. We are the masters of our enemy. We are the saviours of my life. So be it .. . until there is no enemy ... but peace. Amen.

[laura888]

3. Exactly! n/t

[FloridaPat]

6. I think the Iraqi insugency is driven by the knowledge that we are

there to steal their oil, thereby stealing their future and their country. They realize they will be second rate citizens, if that high up the ladder. They depleted uranium is killing their people and cripling their children - for generations. They have nothing to loose. We are the barbarians. We are the invaders. We are the murderers.

[getoffmytrain]

5. However...

the VC (Viet Cong) were the true insurgents as they were from South Vietnam and operated largely like a traditional guerrilla faction.

The Northern Vietnamese Army (NVA) were not insurgents... they were a standing army with an organized command structure and operated like any other army with division sized movements, etc. Though the war in Vietnam had a constant 'guerilla' style to it.

The difference between Vietnam and Iraq is just that; in Vietnam, there was a North Vietnam, with an economy, an army, etc... we were fighting a country AND an insurgency in the south of Vietnam. Further, both the VC and mainly the NVA were heavily supplied by China and Russia, and a situation like this appears to be pretty much nonexistent on a large scale in Iraq today, though certainly there are small amounts of support via Iran and Syria, but it's not near what the level was to Communist forces in Vietnam.

Iraq and Vietnam would be alike if we occupied ALL of Vietnam and were only fighting the VC, though I think the VC were much better soldiers and much more organized than the Iraqi insurgency is. Further, the VC was driven more by nationalism whereas the Iraqi insurgency is driven more by religious fanaticism than nationalism in my opinion.

[laura888]

7. what is your proof of your last statement?

"the Iraqi insurgency is driven more by religious fanaticism than nationalism."

Really?

[ElectroPrincess]

8. Yes, I thought that Saddam had all but erased any sign of

what's termed "religious fanaticism" out of Iraq. That's why our one TRUE enemy "Osama Bin Laden" would not give him the time of day, i.e., Saddam like the spoiled Saudi Royals were not true to Islam.

Saddam was know as a Secular type of Arab Dictator, not to be confused with the budding democracies like the Kuwait's we choose to liberate in Gulf War #1. How's their social justice initiatives constitution coming along now that they're free of that evil man too? <eg>

[getoffmytrain]

10. Read below.

Islamic fanaticsm has sky-rocketed in Iraq since the invasion... you are correct, Saddam was a secular dicatotor and mostly no friend of the fundamental Islam, unless it played into his interests.

[getoffmytrain]

9. My evidence

That after witnessing dozens and dozens of attacks.... all one hears is Islamic chanting by the insugents... not to mention, the desire to be a martyr by many of the insurgents is Islamic driven, by and large, Iraqi society has been fairly secular and the concept of suicide attacks, etc.. was foreign before the invasion.

Granted, thee are definitely insurgents that are solely nationalists, however, Islam is the driving ideology... and most insurgents are fighting for 'Allah' before they're fighting for Iraq.

[laura888]

13. link?

where do you get these "facts"?

[getoffmytrain]

17. ummm

these are my opinions, as you would see if you read my original post that ended in "in my opinion".

I can promise you militant Islam is very alive and well in the Iraqi resistance... do you really want links for me to prove that? It's rather obvious.

You're free to disagree with me... I am not trying to get into a debate with you... I don't care if you don't think Islam is a driving force behind the insurgency.

[ElectroPrincess]

15. I respect your opinion but disagree with your impression of the

present situation. How can you tease out what EXACTLY is religious and what is the Zeal of Nationalism. It's all part of one big package.

One thing I know deep within my heart and soul, is that we do NOT want to make this a war pitting Christianity vs. Islam.

Haven't we learned anything from history. Sit awhile with our far right wing "snake handling" Fundamentalist Protestants will make your skin crawl.

Further, we should never forget our OWN home grown terrorist, Timothy McVeigh. I wonder how many of those "twisted souls" we are creating that will SNAP out of sanity once they realize that Uncle Sam only needed them for cannon fodder?

[jdj]

16. what of all the soldier praying and proclaimin' on high?

further more, I've heard some folks say it's worse, much worse, for the long-term interests of this country because Iraq lies in the heart of our oil resources and Vietnam had no oil and wasn't relevant to the future of the US

[getoffmytrain]

19. Soldiers

have prayed in war since the beginning of human warfare.

The difference is... after an ambush by the insurgency, one can hear the constant drum of muslim prayers, etc. Virtually all letters and statements from the insurgency have contained heavy religious overtones...

[laura888]

21. I submit that you know very little about a foreign culture

FACT: we are an invading force.

That's enough to make me think that their motives are mostly nationalistic.

What you see on the U.S. media is suspect. Unless you have a direct conversation with one of these guys, please refrain from explaining what makes them tick.

[getoffmytrain]

23. I know plenty

about what's going on in Iraq, I'll leave it like that.

Your opinions are yours and you have presented zero evidence that the insurgency is a secular movement.

We are an invading force, that is true... however, if you knew anything about the history of Iraq, you would know that tribal allegiance, family ties and religious affiliation far outweighs any sense of national unity. Iraqis from various provinces and parts of the country do not identify with Iraqis from other parts... in fact, most of them hate one another.

If you think Shia and Sunni join hands in Iraqi harmony, you're gravely mistaken... the two sects operate almost entirely independent of one another and are NOT unified by the fact they are both Iraqi.

Do you homework before you start spouting off... you already have zero credibility with me as it's obvious you have no knowledge of the situation.

[laura888]

24. perhaps not "nationalistic"

but what you just described is NOT religious fanaticism.

I submit that what drives them is largely a desire to keep a bit of turf for themselves and live self-determined lives.

I'm sorry if I jumped on you - but I am ticked when people buy into this "islam vs christianity" crap.

[getoffmytrain]

25. No...

what I described is a situation that keeps it from being nationalistic, allowing it to have a heavily Islamic current to its movement.

I do not think it's Muslim vs. Christian.... However, Islam is used to power the base of the insurgency.

I will debate with you until the sun rises, but I will not get into personal attacks with you. Without knowing anything about me, nor me about you, it wouldn't be quite fair to assume one another's feelings/history in regards to the topic.

[jdj]

26. thats a load of right wing hooey.

"most of them hate one another"

considering the fact that over half our electorate just voted against their own best interests in service of hate and bigotry, I'd say that more accurately applies here in the U.S.

The only reliable source I've read is riverbend, and she says it's like protestant and catholic here. If what you are saying is true, they would have attacked each other the minute SH was overthrown, which did not happen, instead it was right wing propaganda,

[getoffmytrain]

28. It's

VERY common knowledge that the Shia and Sunni have an VERY long history of fighting... further, it's also well known that the Kurds are not liked by either.

Are you suggesting that the the Shia, Sunni and Kurds all get along? LMAO!

(The difference between what's going on here and in Iraq is we are not divided along religious and ethnic lines.... and ummm.... we don't blow eachother up.)

[laura888]

30. somehow your argument reminds me of one about the American Indians

A discussion I had with a far-right republican.

He justified our invasion and devastation of Indian tribes by explaining how Indian tribes fought constantly with one another.

I'm not saying its the same - it just sounds similar.

[getoffmytrain]

32. Where have I said

anywhere that we should have invaded Iraq? What I stated, was the very well known fact that there always has been factional fighting in Iraq based on religious and ethnic lines that has stifled the possibility for there to be national unity.

[jdj]

34. I'm saying that your arguments

are right wing talking points and have you not noticed they are fighting TOGETHER against the U.S.?

[getoffmytrain]

35. You have

done absolutely nothing to refute my posts with 'facts' because you have none, so all you do is first, attack me as not knowing what I am talking about.. and now, you say what I say are 'right-wing talking points' While, the entire time... you've not made a single claim that isn't easily refutable by anyone who has a handle on on the situation...


and oh yeah..... they are not working together to expel us from Iraq. The Sunni and Shia resistance have totally different leaders and operate in different parts of the country... there is ZERO evidence there is cohesion between the two groups when operating against the Coalition.

I'm dying to know........ where have you received your information from the situation on Iraq? The foreign and domestic media?

[jdj]

38. you've posted opinions, not facts.

facts are things you can document.

I haven't seen any documentation, nor am I looking for any from an anonymous postor on the internet.


edit: as you stated: "ummm
these are my opinions"

[getoffmytrain]

39. Would you like me

to post facts about fighting between the Shia, Sunni and Kurd factions? I'll be glad to post tons of it.

How about tons of evidence that militant Islam is VERY alive and well in the Iraqi insurgency, I'll be glad to post tons of that as well.

I can back up every single statment I've made with very credible sources, starting... with my own eyes... to massive amounts of intel from organizations and bodies from around the globe.

Can you?

[getoffmytrain]

31. Pssst...

the Sunnis were brutalizing the Shia the entire time Saddam was in power...

Anyone that thinks the Sunni and Shia are buds instantly goes on the ignore list. See ya.

(changed my mind, I want to hear you make claims that the Sunni and Shia are on the up and up... this ought to be entertaining)

[TahitiNut]

33. The very definition of "nation" is very different.

Perhaps one should think in terms of Native American "nations" rather than the kind of "nation" most (immigrant) Americans think of. We tend to think in terms of land and boundaries. That's the kind of thinking shaped by totalitarian agriculture. Tribal, nomadic, herdsman cultures think more in terms of language, religion, and relationships (e.g. intermarriage).

I believe this is one of the more pervasive and fundamental problems in 'Western' involvement in the Middle East. The very lines in their sand were drawn by Europeans, not Middle Easterners. The ruling families in the Middle East are all western-educated and placed/supported in power by outside nations.

A populist political force in the Middle East would not be so constrained in their thinking. Arabic, being the language of the Qur'an, is common throughout Islamic countries. The religion is common; a religion with a great deal of secular strictures and covenants.

Thus, the term 'nationalist' has a very definite difference in the Middle East - one which more conforms to language and religion than imaginary lines.

[barb162]

11. I think the insurgency is composed of ex -Baathists, criminals

and the religious extremists. I don't think much nationalism is involved at all; Iraq was always a phony nation of unlike groups which the British "made" by map a nation after they gave it up.

[DemoTex]

12. As an ardent student of that war, GOMT is somewhat, rather mostly right.

What was left out, and what must be assumed about the Islamic revolution in Iraq, is the question of who belongs to that revolution. We assumed in Vietnam that the VC were peasants. Wrong, garlic breath. The VC included, we later learned (but should have known), the intelligentsia, the medical community, the teachers, the judiciary, the police, the ARVN army, and the government of Vietnam. The "resistance" in Iraq is similarly structured. Believe me, there are doctors, professors, lawyers, teachers, etc, working against us in Iraq. Just like the 'Nam.

[getoffmytrain]

14. Thanks

for adding that DemoTex, you're very right.

[jdj]

27. see below

:puke:

[laura888]

18. Yes, but are they fighting for Islam? Or fighting for their country?

If GOMT is right, then the insurgents are wacked-out extremists who are willing to die for their religious beliefs.

This belief that "insurgents" are islamic terrorists is one hyped by the US media.

Insurgents = freedom fighters?

[getoffmytrain]

36. Many

of the insurgents are whacked out extremist, which is why they charge our Bradleys and other armor with only an AK knowing they are going to be killed and not inflict any damage. Further, they fire from unconcealed positions which is definitely a form of suicide.... I can give you tons and tons of examples of insurgents doing things in firefights that they knew would get them killed... hence the intro of the new 'martyr' culture in Iraq... encouraged by none other than militant Islam.

Not to mention the daily suicide car bombings.

[H2O Man]

29. Obviously there are differences.

You make a few very valid, very important points.

But what is perhaps more important is that we did not learn the lessons of Vietnam. And that goes way beyond fighting in the jungle versus in a city.

LBJ, for all his talents (and they were many) had little foreign policy experience. He relied upon Kennedy's "wise men." But he never could move beyond viewing the Vietnamese in terms of his paternalistic relationship with Mexicans, and even his grandfather's experience with "wild" Indians. He never had a full appreciation for the Vietnamese culture, and therefore could not understand the significance of the village and the religion.

Bush has none of LBJ's talents, but all of his faults. He likewise is dependant upon "wise men" to guide him in many ways. And he is limited in his intellectual capacity, and therefore can not view the Iraqis in terms that go beyond his relationship with Saudi's royal family, and his father's conflict with Saddam. He has no grasp of Islamic culture, and his "imperial hubris" can only lead to more death and destruction.

[Porcupine]

20. In Vietnam they didn't close the Hanoi Airport

Journalists could walk around Hanoi or other major cities.

Off duty troops were not restricted to "green zones."

There were a significant number of South Vietnamese committed to fighting for the U.S. side.

Grunts fighting in Vietnam didn't come home pissing depleted uranium.

In other words we are doing worse.

Things that are the same: The ARVN was about as likely to shoot U.S. troops after dark as the current Iraqi army is. Assholes in Washington make decisions that get troops killed because of arrogance, ignorance and stupidity. We are just about as likely to achieve a political victory.

[DemoTex]

22. The Hanoi airport closed down at times.

It was a primary target. Just like the Paul Doumer bridge. I was there.

[zeek]

41. We never occupied Hanoi, and we did shut it down often by bombing it.

[hollowdweller]

37. Take all the rhetoric

from politicians in the 60's supporting the Vietnam war. Cross out "communisim" pencil in "terrorisim" and it's pretty much the same.
Even some of the same politicians and a lot of the same companies are involved.

[zeek]

40. There are a few differences and a few similarities

Similarities:
1. Majority of the population does not want us there.

2. Insurgency being fueled by religious extremism.

3. No exit strategy

4. U.S. propaganda

5. Indescision has made us appear to either lack resolve or have no specific goals and direction.

Differences:
1. We lost fewer people in our first year of vietnam then we lost in first year of Iraq.

2. No enemy conventional forces left in Iraq.

3. No superpower supporting the enemy.

4. Not enough forces in Iraq to control the country.

5. Large number of foreign fighters in Iraq