Wow. We all drank the kool-aid and didn't even know it!

[Nordic]

Turns out the whole right-wing "values vote" meme was a complete lie. Time to puke up the koolaid. How many here didn't fall for it?

I did at first, then I started thinking "why are we believeing this shit?" Oh well!

I declare November 13, 2004 as the day I refused to believe anything the media ever tells me again.

Check it out:

http://www.zogby.com/soundbites/ReadClips.dbm?ID=10389

The Zogby poll shows that when voters were asked to list the moral issue that most affected their vote, the Iraq war topped the list (42%) – more than tripling the number that chose abortion (13%) or gay marriage (9%). Also, when asked to choose the most urgent moral crisis facing the U.S., voters chose ‘greed and materialism’ (33%) and ‘poverty and economic justice’ (31%) twice as often as abortion (16%) and gay marriage (12%).

[wtmusic]

1. Try to keep the Kool-Aid down until

the voter fraud stories go away...

[Fovea]

2. I did not drink the koolaid either.

It was mostly about punishing the smart people for being smarter.

[madrchsod]

3. i almost believed cracker land was moral

untill i remembered where 95% of jerry springer guests come from.

[missouri dem]

6. lol

[Rich Hunt]

49. um...

The Jerry Springer show is in Chicago.

These stereotypes are getting to be a bit much for me. :(

[high density]

4. Note that those are Catholic voters

[DemBones DemBones]

11. Yes, we supposedly single-issue Catholics are a lot smarter

that most at DU realize.


"Asked the question of the greatest moral crisis facing our country, 31% of Catholics chose poverty and 31% chose greed, compared to only 20% who chose abortion, and 11% that chose same-sex marriage. Further, more Catholic voters were turned off by messages from conservative leaders trumpeting ‘non-negotiable’ issues, as opposed to Catholic groups who held up a broad range of moral issues. According to Zogby, 25% of voters said that conservative Catholic messages touting ‘non-negotiable’ issues made them more likely to vote for Sen. John Kerry, whereas only 20% said these messages made them more likely to vote for President George W. Bush. Fifty-six percent said these messages had no effect on them at all. "

[Nordic]

15. Nope you're wrong. What I quoted was NOT just the Catholics

the Catholic results are in the next paragraph and are as follows:

Catholics also followed this trend. Asked the question of the greatest moral crisis facing our country, 31% of Catholics chose poverty and 31% chose greed, compared to only 20% who chose abortion, and 11% that chose same-sex marriage. Further, more Catholic voters were turned off by messages from conservative leaders trumpeting ‘non-negotiable’ issues, as opposed to Catholic groups who held up a broad range of moral issues. According to Zogby, 25% of voters said that conservative Catholic messages touting ‘non-negotiable’ issues made them more likely to vote for Sen. John Kerry, whereas only 20% said these messages made them more likely to vote for President George W. Bush. Fifty-six percent said these messages had no effect on them at all.

[high density]

20. Ah, thanks

I didn't read the article carefully enough.

[Nordic]

24. no prob. I thought maybe I'd read it wrong after your comment

so I re-read it carefully.

Sometimes I jump the gun. :)

[Old and In the Way]

5. Interesting.......wonder how CNN will respin this?

If the war was 42% and voters chose ‘greed and materialism’ (33%) and ‘poverty and economic justice’ (31%)....then this should recast the whole voter fraud issue....these were our issues and these same voters would have overwhelming chosen Kerry.

Thanks for posting!

[LittleClarkie]

8. I was amazed to hear on CNN

someone talking about how there's more divorce in the Red States than in the Blue and that the state with the least number of divorces was, that's right, Massachusetts. The reporter talked about all of this with a bit of irony in her voice. There was more to the report, I think, but that's what I remember.

[Nordic]

17. funny. That's right out of the fuckthesouth.com website

I guess that's making the rounds. :)

[LittleClarkie]

22. I just read that tonight

someone at a trivia game I play had printed out everything from "fuck the south" to the discussion about "It's Iraq, stupid" (damn it, next time Kerry needs to follow his instincts -- Shrum and Cahill be damned) and the fraud discussions. I assume he got it all off DU and fuckthesouth.com.

That was a great read, profanity notwithstanding. The South owes alot to the North.

[kayell]

34. Ever considered that site is very useful to the BFEE?

Divide and seperate the people who actually have common cause. Keep Northerners from getting to know Southerners and what they are really like by perpetuating the most negative stereotypes possible. Take the worst possible examples from a large and (believe it or not) diverse region, blow them up to the point of caricature, and ensure that when Northerners talk to Southerners, they keep us all totally pissed off.

That site is a Rovian wet dream.

[Skidmore]

28. You'd think the media, of all groups, would have a vested interest in

putting the fundamentalist/dominionist/evangelical movement to a screeching halt. It's goals are contrary to their corporate needs. You can't forecast future profits with a group which has as it's goal the end of life as we know it.

[LittleClarkie]

43. Another counter-intuitive group

along with the unemployed, disenfranchised and soon to be drafted who voted against themselves.

[prodigal_green]

32. also fewest out-of-wedlock pregnancies

in Massachusetts (sorry, don't have the reference, but it was the same as one that quoted fewest divorces). See, having a choice doesn't automatically mean you're going to have an abortion. Note, I said pregnancies, not births.

[Slippery_Hammer]

7. I never believed the "values vote" meme

They need to come up with a "manipulated perception" poll. Or maybe a "easily deceived voter" poll.

[NJCher]

9. actually, if you read DU a lot

A thread appeared almost simultaneously with that BS story. The thread--don't recall who started it--debunked that myth. Thanks to DU, I didn't drink the Kool-aid!


Cher

[Cronus Protagonist]

10. I never beleived it - we have the moral high ground

And that's always been the case.

Show your support for the president, wear a FUCK BUSH button!

http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13
(We usually ship same or next business day by first class mail)

[aquart]

12. The Miracle of the Religious Bigots? Never fell for it..

I know a cover story when I hear one.

I do not drink Kool Aid in any flavor.

[m berst]

13. I was suspicious

I am close to the Evangelical community, and for there to be a huge upswing in Bush voters there would have had to have been some signs of that I think leading up to the election. To the contrary, I saw a cooling of ardor among Evangelicals for the Republican party and more questioning of Bush than I had seen 2 years ago. I also didn't see any signs of an explosive upsurge in membership, enthusiasm, or political activism. I can't say that none of that happened, but I didn't see any signs of it.

Many who did vote for Bush this year said they "held their nose" and did so with a lot of misgivings, and others said they weren't voting at all. I don't remember anyone saying either of those things in 2000.

Liberals are so alienated from the Evangelical community now, and vice versa, that it is easy to convince us of things going on in the Evangelical community that aren't true. I think that there was an intentional plan to credit the Evangelical community as the explanation for an increase in votes for Bush because it would be believeable to the liberal community, and difficult to verify or disprove.

[Nordic]

19. Wow. All of this is pointing to one thing: the "Bush won" meme is a lie

I have not seen one indicator to show me that Bush actually won the election.

In fact, I've seen nothing but evidence to the contrary.

This is the first nail in the coffin as far as I'm concerned.

[regnaD kciN]

27. The only thing I will point out that might counter that...

I am close to the Evangelical community, and for there to be a huge upswing in Bush voters there would have had to have been some signs of that I think leading up to the election. To the contrary, I saw a cooling of ardor among Evangelicals for the Republican party and more questioning of Bush than I had seen 2 years ago. I also didn't see any signs of an explosive upsurge in membership, enthusiasm, or political activism. I can't say that none of that happened, but I didn't see any signs of it.

...is the fact that both of us are in Washington state, which was hardly "in play" for the national election, and thus not a big target of G.O.P. Evangelical Hate Brigade GOTV efforts.

Had we been in a swing state, it is quite possible that KKKarl and his minions would have been working hand-in-glove with the local fundies to rile up their congregations about the threat to our nation caused by gay marriage and abortion in ways they didn't bother with out here.

I have read posts on other liberal blogs from our poll-watchers in southern Ohio, who have said there was a day-long wave of "born-again" voters all worked up about "baby killers" and the "threat to the institution of marriage," rushing to "vote righteously" for God's Chosen One. :puke: It may just be that the Repugs didn't bother with such a GOTV effort in a state that was bound to go blue anyway.

[DemBones DemBones]

14. But we're supposed to believe all those voters who

say the war is their top issue voted for Bush*??? Somehow, I don't believe that.

[ever_green]

31. Stolen election, that's how.

The bastards lost, much to everyone's surprise. This moral crap is how they explain the surprise upset.

[lapfog_1]

35. It's not an explanation

It's an agenda!

They stole the vote.

Then they say it was "moral issues" like Gay marriage and such.

It's a lie. They want the complacent among us to go along with
the conservative agenda by saying Bush has a mandate to do just that,
implement a near theocracy. Or at least the agenda of the theocrats.

But it's a lie. Just like saying Bush got 9 million MORE votes in
2004 than in 2000. He didn't. It's a lie.

[UL_Approved]

16. The spin: moral values vs. fear and fraud

If you want proof positive that the moral values line is bunk, take a look at Montana. Out here, nearly the same percentage of votes went for Bush as went for Brian Schweitzer, a Democratic governor. People are scared. They don't know if a change in our national leadership can fix things. Our state GOP has become so horrible and extreme that they have been all but abandoned in many areas.

The moral issue is a smoke screen. After some thoughtful statistics are gathered, this will show. There really isn't a great deal of Bush support. But there is a significant support of an incumbent. Kerry didn't get the positive exposure he needed before the election for people to make a change. I hope that the next two years really bring people out of the stupor of post-9/11 fervor and a moral revolution that doesn't exist.

[regnaD kciN]

18. That doesn't quite tell the whole story...

Zogby reports on the "moral" concerns of everybody who voted, while the focus has been on the 22% who listed "moral values" as the most important factor in their vote. For example, one might think that the war in Iraq was the most important moral issue, but not have it rank as high as the economy, say, in deciding how one voted.

On the other hand, the "moral values" 22% of the electorate was definitely right-wing, as they broke by more than 4:1 for Bush.

Why is this important? Because anyone can have moral concerns about anything, but what's important, from a campaign's point of view, is which voters care enough about the subject to make it a "single issue" hot-button. In other words, those who are upset enough about abortion to vote for the candidate who promises to abolish it, even if said candidate's other policies will be worse for you.

From the poll results I've seen, 60% of voters are in favor of gay marriage, which is great. But, if all of them decided to vote based on a candidate's position on gay marriage, liberals would carry the day. But they don't. They might think gay marriage is O.K., but it doesn't matter much in how they decide who to support compared to jobs, or terrorism, or security, or any of a dozen things. OTOH, a large percentage of the 40% who don't support gay marriage think it's so important that it determines who they vote for, period.

HOWEVER, the good part of the poll results is that there are a lot of voters out there who have "moral" concerns of a decidedly leftist nature such as "greed and materialism" or "poverty and economic justice." We haven't done much to present these as moral issues so much as pragmatic issues (i.e. inept economic choices). If we can learn to reframe these issues properly, we can develop our own set of "moral values" with which to motivate voters -- possibly to the extent of turning them into single-issue voters, too, instead of what many currently are: people who have concerns about issues like economic justice, but subsume them to matters like "security," and wind up voting Republican despite their inwardly-held moral positions.

[m berst]

25. that ties in with something I heard

Great post JDWalley, and it reminded me of something that I heard from Evangelical and conservative Catholic voters.

Their take is that the whole society is crumbling - in that they actually share the views of many of us - and that NEITHER candidate was desirable. So the vote became not a matter of voting for a candidate, but rather a matter of making a personal statement of faith. Of course, from their perspective, moral laxness is the root cause of the decline of society. Bush manipulated that intentionally and skillfully.

When I said to them, what if the Democrats had run a strong anti-war candidate, to my shock several of them said that would have allowed them to vote Dem as a statement of personal faith.

However, in the absence of anything they could perceive in the Democratic campaign that took a strong and unambiguous moral stand on anything, they voted Bush on the two issues - abortion and marriage, as they put it. I argued with them that Bush wouldn't reduce the number of abortions, and they didn't care about that. They weren't voting for policies, or even for a man, they were voting for a miracle - if that makes any sense - they voted as a symbolic personal statement against the encroaching decay of civilization. I asked them if they were against gays, and they said no, they don't really even care if there are gay marriages. They suspect that there is an evil agenda afoot and see it as basically a lost cause, but that by voting "for the protection of marriage" and "for life" they are at least making a personal moral statement.

Now, don't shoot the messenger, please, I am just trying to communicate to you what I heard.

I don't know if I am explaining this well, but it opened my eyes to talk to them over the last week. I think we are misreading the motivations of these people and I think Bush is misleading us about them, and he is misleading them as well.

[FizzFuzz]

50. very interesting

that the moral decay people voted bush based on a perception that he represents faith and a bulwark against the decline of civilization. This says to me that people need to become literate in spin.

People who watch too much TV and take in too much corporate media apparently are suspending their powers of skepticism.

Hmm I'm not sure if my point is clear here either, but it blows my mind that people are swallowing the Bush lie uncritically like that. They are responding only to image and feel-good spin crafted about Smirky, completely ignoring the facts of his behavior.

[m berst]

57. yes and no FF

"... the moral decay people voted bush based on a perception that he represents faith and a bulwark against the decline of civilization. This says to me that people need to become literate in spin."

More like a symbol than a representative. That is a key difference. They weren't voting to have their votes be counted here and to have an effect here - on earth. They saw both choices as very, very bad, but at least Bush said a couple of things that indicated that he might be more moral. So they didn't vote to put him in office, they voted based on mysticism - reading a sign and voting in a way that they can justify to God.

Of course they are being manipulated and misled on this, but really no more than we are. We are being manipulated into taking a one-dimensional and erroneous view of the situation and are taking on our assigned and media-defined role as the opposition rather than defining it for ourselves.

Most Dems are skeptical about the election fraud because major media is dismissing it, for example. Common sense tells you that it was stolen and that the threat from Bush is fascism. Why isn't there universally solidarity among Dems about that? Dems are just as brainwashed by the nmedia as the Evangelicals are, that's why.

If the Dems took a hard stand against fascism, there would be a lot of support from the right. Instead all they heard were insults about smirky and the chimp, etc.

"People who watch too much TV and take in too much corporate media apparently are suspending their powers of skepticism."

TV is key here, I agree.

"Hmm I'm not sure if my point is clear here either, but it blows my mind that people are swallowing the Bush lie uncritically like that. They are responding only to image and feel-good spin crafted about Smirky, completely ignoring the facts of his behavior."

Again, yes and no. Bush means nothing to them. In many ways, we are no better and are no less the victims of propagagnda.

I'll give you an example - on the stolen election issue. Evangelicals, when I show them the evidence of a stolen election, respond the way I would have thought ALL Americans would react - it is wrong, it is a fundamental issue that nothing else should over-shadow, and it must be stopped. The fact that Dems are rolling over for it and arguing practicality further proves to them that Dems have no morals - no sense of right and wrong.

So the reason that they voted Bush is not because they love Bush, and not because they approve, but rather because they see no alternative. This is a blind spot for most Dems and I don't know why that is.

The party fails to take clear stands on right and wrong - saying the election was stolen and acting on that is just the current example. It isn't a matter of taking the right stands on the right issues - abortion and marriage for example - it is 30 years of failing to take stands on anything that gives Bush the opening he is exploiting.

If the Democratic party took a clear and unambiguous stand on the war or on the stolen election or on outsourcing and NAFTA and WTO there would be a lot of support from the Evangelicals. In the absence of that, we lose them, and they are vulnerable to being taken in by the abortion and marriage propaganda. They scan the campaigns for ANY hint of ANY unambiguous moral stand on ANYTHING. Then they sigh and say, well at least the Republicans are TALKING about right and wrong, hold their nose, and pull the lever for Bush.

[izzie]

21. I put down value. I read all the things but said to my self----

It is all these things so it is my ethics that will make me vote for Dem.I just think like a left wing Dem. I think if I was in EU I would be called a Social Dem.I would think Right wing Rep would think the same. You do not vote for the man but for how the party thinks.

[Virginian]

23. This year, for the first time, the election didn't match the exit polls.

What is the "official" explaination for this?

Why isn't Zogby pissed and calling for a recount of the votes?

Where do I get the cool aid to get me through the next 4 years?

[AndyTiedye]

26. It Was Obvious Months Ago What Flavor of Kool-Aid They Would Serve

I wrote this back in February:

Rove has surely written the copy already:

"There was a surge of angry white homophobes that swung a bunch of
votes to Bush*, and we also had a big surge to Nader in the liberal areas. Our exit polls were once again plagued with 'bad data',
which is why we refused to publish them, but we can trust these
results are free of any hanging chads, becasue they were all
recorded by the brand-new Diebold Republican Electing Machinez.
We won't have to worry about recounts or hanging chads, anymore,
heh, heh."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=335903#335990

in May:
They know it (the GMA) won't really fly

It's the excuse the talking heads intend to use on Nov 3 to explain how Bush "won" the
2004 election when the last polls showed him down 16 points and the exit polls were MIA again.
(OK, the polls were a lot closer than that in reality, and instead
of hiding the exit polls they just changed them in the middle of the
night and claimed "bad data" AGAIN! when we called them on it!)

"A wave of angry homophobes carries dubya to victory"

Just ask ex-Senator Cleland how it works.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=561326#562142


They would have been prepared by months of bogus polls that say
it's too close to call, even though it's hard to even find any
Bush* supporters in most places now.

The media would attribute it all to a surge of angry homophobes
and the ability of the churches to get out the vote for Bush*.
They would then give lots of airtime to any boll-weevil Democrats
they can get to advocate that the party abandon its long-standing
support for gay rights.

The real purpose, of course, would be to drown out any discussion
of election fraud.

After 2000 and 2002, we know how they operate.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=600173#600269

[Merlin]

29. Dream on. These numbers come from the man who called it for Kerry.

I realize the desire is strong for a certain faction of liberals to want to avoid any discussion whatsoever involving anything like moral issues. But the kool-aid you are drinking is the kool-aid of denial.

The fact is that voters in red states (RED STATES--remember--they're the ones that are the problem, not the nation as a whole which is what the Zogby numbers cover) overwhelmingly believe Democrats are moral degenerate baby killers who are responsible for the crap on the tube and the crime in the streets.

Ignore it at your own peril.

[Beam Me Up]

48. And he called it correctly. Kerry WON. I agree there is a "perception

problem" with how liberals are perceived by some groups, particularly hard-core fundamentalists. I know, most of my family fall into this category and they WANT to see me, a man who is gay, left of liberal and proud, as completely without moral values.

However, they can't even make it stick in their own view. Over and over and over again they see I am RIGHT on the issues. I've been telling them they are being DUPED by the aristocrats and corporatists of this country since NIXON. Over and over again, as some new scandal is brought to light, they see I'm right on the money. And, unfortunately, over and over again, they keep drinking the kool-aid.

Why? So far as I can tell the answer is that their IDENTITY, their sense of self-in-world, is wrapped up in having to believe that they ARE right, that they DO have THE answers to the enigmas and deep questions of life. And that answer is to have FAITH in the authority of their interpretation of the 'good book' and their church and state leadership that gives it to them. They HAVE NOTHING ELSE.

And this is where the left has failed them--just as the left has failed itself. It is a case of the proverbial baby and the bath. Had THEY not assassinated Martin Luther King, we might be beyond this divide already--for he was a man of God who spoke in terms that all Christians can understand. They might reject his words because he was black, but even they knew that 'the lord' would not reject his words for that. What the left lacks is moral LEADERSHIP emanating from its own religious legs. And understandably so.

What people who drink the kool-aid refuse to understand is that those who would lead us on the left are subject to assasination--either outright wet-work or more subtly through character (as per Clinton). It isn't just because the left has 'failed' it is because they've murdered our leaders and will do it again if need be.

[Merlin]

59. But we must ask more than just religious liberals to speak in moral terms.

(On edit: I forgot to commend you for a really excellent post!)

Moral terminology is available to all liberals, whether religious or not. Even non-believers can quote scripture and Jesus in support of virtually every liberal precept, and we surely ought to start.

A few quick examples:

On health care and aid for the poor:
Remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.
- Acts (ch. XX, v. 35)

On promises to rebuild Afghanistan and Iraq and funding his AIDs pledge:
Better is it that thou shouldest not vow, than that thou shouldest vow and not pay.
- Ecclesiastes (ch. V, v. 5)

On funding No Child Left Behind and Head Start:
A feast is made for laughter, and wine maketh merry: but money answereth all things.
- Ecclesiastes (ch. X, v. 19)

On Bush's deceit and insolence:
Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
- Ephesians (ch. V, v. 6)

On increasing the minimum wage:
The labourer is worthy of his reward.
- I Timothy (ch. V, v. 18)

[ever_green]

30. I never believed it either

I don't trust the media for one. Secondly, it's obvious they needed to somehow "explain" Bush's reelection. What a lame explaination. I didn't buy it.

[American Tragedy]

33. Should we consider this as reliable as their election predictions?

[Junkdrawer]

36. I knew the "Moral Majority" meme was bullshift as soon as I heard it..

nostamj designed this for us and I'm giving them out as Holiday presents this year:



http://www.cafepress.com/nostamj.14522260

[kohodog]

37. Yes, but if you add 13+9+16+12 you get 50%

That's the kind of lying backwards logic we're up against!

[quaker bill]

38. Had they asked, I would have said I based my vote on marals

But then again I voted for Kerry because I think that war crimes are a moral issue.

Stupid questions yeild misleading answers.

[seabeyond]

39. i am USING it, for the next four years

they couldnt have handed me a sweeter koolaide on hte hottest of days. what an easy arguement for all christians and repugs., you challenging my moral values. k, lets look at your life decisions, vs mine. i am not giving up this story for anything. i cna easily and we as a party can easily take down this story. moral values my eyes., now people lets look to see how "christian" our christians are being. it is sit up perfectly to draw the distinction of hate and bigotry of repugs to dems

[mmonk]

40. It helped them mobilize

voter drives from churches. It created a GOTV movement, they just aren't the majority.

[Minstrel Boy]

41. Zogby oughta be done away with, like exit polls.

Notoriously unreliable, both of 'em. Why, they said Kerry had won!

[Junkdrawer]

46. Put down that ladle and step away from the Kool Aid...

Repeat: Put down that ladle and step away from the Kool Aid.

We don't want to hurt you, but we may have to in order to save your life. :evilgrin:

[quiet.american]

52. Er....

The exit polls have only become unreliable since Bush stepped his little pinky toe into presidential politics.

[Minstrel Boy]

54. I know.

I was being sarcastic.

Damn dangerous thing to do on the Internets.

[quiet.american]

55. :)

[OneTwentyoNine]

42. Moral voting total BS in Repuke locked Kansas....

I believed that bullshit for about one day until the final results were in and I saw the Kansas percentages. Big church vote? Hardly..Kerry got more votes than Clinton did in both runs and Gore in 2000. This is one bible thumping state so where was the HUGE swing for Bush?

Kerry 2004----420,846 36.74%
Gore 2000----399,276 37.24%
Clinton 1996--387,659 36.08%
Clinton 1992--390,434 33.74%

Once again don't believe the CNN,FOX propaganda stations until you see hard evidence. To me this proves without a shadow of a doubt that this fucking election was RIGGED. Hand wringing,milque toast Dems need to get off their asses and get a full blown probe into these machines and DEMAND they print out results or de-certify the machine.

David

[Beam Me Up]

44. I did not fall for it, not for one second.

I don't watch TV news but I heard it from friends and immediately rejected it as a cover for the theft of the election.

[KoKo]

45. Nah...I didn't believe it. It sounded like Rove that the "values" thing

was being discussed the day after the election. It was right out of his "Talking Points" book along with Bush's Mandate which is a lie backing up a bigger lie...classic Rove.

I think so many folks were shocked and demoralized the day after the election and didn't know what to believe...which is how the Bushies work...remember "Shock & Awe?"

Also we had trolls over here doing Rove's work for him whipping it all up on unsuspecting newer DU'ers.....

It's not true...the values thing. Glad to see it being debunked by everyone like E.J. Dionne, Josh Marshall, and now Zogby.

[Ardee]

47. They said it better

Eight human blunders which cause all the world's violence:

Wealth without work
Pleasure without conscience
Knowledge without character
Commerce without morality
Science without humanity
Worship without sacrifice
Politics without principles
Rights without responsibility

Mahandas Ghandi

"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently." Frederich Neitzche

"The death of democracy is not likely to be an assassination from ambush. It will be a slow extinction from apathy, indifference and undernourishment." John Maynard Hutchins

Thanks for your indulgences, I feel much better now.

"When great changes occur in history,
when great principles are involved,
as a rule, the majority is wrong." Eugene V. Debs

[Individualist]

51. No, "we all" didn't

I knew immediately that the values issue was only brought up as an attempt to distract attention from the stolen election.

[leesa]

53. Nope. Who would possibly believe that true Christians would think

that the murders occuring in Iraq, the refusal to investigate the crime of 9-11, the destruction of social safety nets would not trump the mythology of gay marriage and the idiocy of "fake pro-life"

NEVER, EVER believe what the RW media says.

[serryjw]

56. Sorry....You simply don't get it!

Give the same poll to Gallops database and will get an entirely different answer. We can't believe the polls when it suits our fancy. Moral values was the deciding issue. How do you define that? Well ROE and Gay marriage was on top of that and so was stem cell. Bob Jones and James Dodson where out there for a year going to every evangelic church. KKarl Rove said they had the name, address and church every member belonged to. You can refuse to believe it, BUT you can't fight and win if you don't correctly identify the problem.
We are talking issues and they are talking faith They simply like, believe and trust the Chimp. People LOVE a sinner whom repents. Bushit reminds them of themselves.....NOW how do you fight and win this?

[Tsiyu]

58. We knew it and once more the media DAMNS itself to hell

Oh, every day I pray that the opportunists POSING as journalists will all get laryngitis and severe writer's cramp for a month and we can get some REAL, TRUTHFUL FUCKIN NEWS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!