We are religious progressives, and we can help, if you will let us.

[Padraig18]

I know that it may be hard to believe, but not all people of faith are evangelical, RW fundamentalists nut cases. Many of us are decidely progressive, in fact. We are the ones who create and maintain the food banks. We are the ones who create and help fund battered-women's shelters. Many of our churches and dioceses and presbyteries fund health-care clinics and hospitals. We maintain after-school programs, and run day-care centers. You probably know us, but you rarely 'see' us, because we carry on our work quietly. Nonetheless, we are here, and we would like to help. We, too, are apalled at Bush's agenda.

One thing that we can do to help our party is to teach you how to talk to people about questions of 'morality', or 'values'. The first lesson is simple: don't shout at them, and don't demonize them. It's highly unlikely that you will ever get your message across to someone you have publicly labeled a 'Neanderthal', or worse, and no one is going to hear you any more clearly, just because you shout at them. They're not evil, and they're never going to listen to you until you quit speaking to them as though they are.

Another thing we can do is to help you to understand why people who share 90% of your beliefs about society's duty to itself vote for some RW Republican, instead of our guys. We learned long ago that fear is an incredibly powerful enemy to overcome, but we've met with a fair amount of success time and again. We have done so by appealing not to people fears, but to their 'better natures'. Believe it, or not, but even most evangelicals don't think it's right that people should go hungry, or without health care or decent housing.

There's a lot we have to share with you, and we will, but you need to meet us halfway. People of faith are not the enemy--- ignorance (on both sides) is.

Peace.

:hi:

[NightTrain]

1. I know not all people of faith are evangelical, RW fundamentalists.

They are, however, the ones who garner the lion's share of the press attention. Unfortunately.

[Padraig18]

3. Exactly.

We need to remember to take what the press says with a grain of salt--- always.

:hi:

[KittyWampus]

23. Padraig, It's Now Up To The Religious Left To Make It's Voice Heard

Yes, we don't wear our Spirituality on our sleeves or try and shove it down anyone else's throats....

BUT, BUT, BUT, by staying silent now we are allowing the Pharisees a chance to mislead and misrepresent our fellows.

I don't want to see a million person march for Jr's Inaugural... I want to see a million person prayer vigil replete with prayerful silence and lit candles.

[Padraig18]

26. You're right.

The time has come for us to become more activist--- more vocal. We will ask for your support, so please, In His name, be there with us when we do. I occasionally get the feeling that some of our Democratic brethren are decidely uncomfortable around people of faith, and it saddens me that this should be so.

:shrug:

[checks-n-balances]

44. "Fear-Based" politics vs."Faith-Based" politics

Thanks for starting this thread! I spent four years in theological study and at least 10 years on the job in mainline churches, so can I be part of the "we" in your original post? Not that I have THAT much to teach, but I agree with you and would welcome the opportunity to discuss things on this topic whenever I can!

I REALLY agree with the "fear factor" that seems alive and well in so many American churches. FEAR is the OPPOSITE of FAITH. This administration is anything but "faith based" - it's almost purely "fear based"! But hey, Karl Rove & Co. present an "up is down" world, so why be surprised that they do so with regard to religious matters?

(BTW, Forgive me, but "...some of our Democratic brethren..." let's don't leave out some of our Democratic "sisteren"!)

[Padraig18]

49. My bad!

I didn't intentionally leave out our sisters of faith. *blush*

:)

[AspenRose]

2. AMEN!

Thank you Paddy :-)

Always the level head, you have :-)

PS-See sig line

[Padraig18]

4. Thank you!

Just saying what's on my heart.

:hi:

[Warpy]

5. Most Democrats are Christians

What differentiates them from their Repuglican brethren is that Democratic Christians got the point.

[Padraig18]

6. Yes, but...

... we shouldn't rest on our laurels, or break an arm patting ourselves on the back. We must continue to minister to those who don't 'get it', and reach out to them.

:)

[Zorra]

60. Most Christians are Democrats, apolitical, or Greens.

Republicans are christo-fascists.

No Christian would ever be a republican; no Christian would support a creature like Bu$h.

[wryter2000]

7. Thank you

I've been waiting for the truly religious people to speak out.

[Padraig18]

9. We were waiting for the artillery barrage to stop.

It felt 'dangerous' to post this, before today.

;)

[GreenPartyVoter]

8. Spiritual progressives who want to make a dent in our politics, check in

here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=214x215

[Padraig18]

11. And another link.

http://www.LiberalsLikeChrist.org

:hi:

[Tace]

10. Quakers Teach That We Should Distinguish Between Person/Policies

To love the person but criticize the policies. Hate really does not serve any good purpose.

[Padraig18]

12. Amen.

:hi:

[Ardee]

13. Only the childish

equate religion with right wing fanaticism.Just like they equate third party politics with traitorous action against the democratic pary (I do mean Nader, yes)

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

14. Greetings to a Believer

I know that another way to reach those who say they are Christians is to walk your talk. If you believe in justice, BE justice. If you believe that 'whatsoever you do to the least of these, you do unto Me, you show Mercy and Compassion to ALL. I have been complimented by Christians who are sure I am a member of their church or one like it, all because of my actions and my manner. People relate well to those who 'walk their talk'.

No, I don't usually tell someone that my church honors all spiritual traditions, not just Christianity. But I do take the opportunity to talk about liberal causes and asking, in all sincerity, what the teachings and words of Jesus tell us to do.

[Padraig18]

16. Bingo!

It's about the WORK, not the WORDS.

:hi:

[muse]

59. I'm a Christian Democrat and I also think we have to remember to be

humble and not superior. We don't have all of the answers either. I read somewhere else - the words of Joan Chittister - that there is a fight between personal morality (right wing republicans) and social responsibility (liberal democrats). So, I think we have to be sensitive to the personal morality thing and have some answers regarding that. Sometimes I wonder why my argument is for the right to pitch all of that and come over to my side, because my side is for feeding the poor, health care for all, etc. I'm hoping that we can bring some sensible people together to discuss this issue in a sensible fashion. The main thing is that we have let the right be the ONLY group to talk about faith for way too long. I know that I vote Democrat because it does match up with my faith more directly.

[stevedeshazer]

15. Raising my agnostic hand

:hi:

You are my friend. I recognize how much your church and other related organizations contribute to society, and I am truly appreciative. My like-minded friends agree, and you will never see or hear one of us criticize you or anyone for your religious beliefs.

Good is good, and I think most thinking people recognize that.

[stevedeshazer]

25. And by the way,

This thread relates very much to your post...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2677394


"For I was hungry and you gave me food,
I was thirsty and you gave me drink,
I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
I was naked and you clothed me,
I was sick and you visited me,
I was in prison and you came to me.'
Truly, I say to you,
as you did it to
one of the least of these,
my brethren,
you did it to me."

-- the words of Jesus Christ
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I wish those who cloak themselves falsely in Christianity would heed those words!

[Padraig18]

30. The Corporeal Acts of Mercy are universally progressive.

:hi:

[peacetalksforall]

17. Thank you for your work....I, for one, do not condemn all Christians...

My voice raises when evangelicals demand our conversion through their changes in our Constitution and Bill of Rights. It raises when I realize that they love fetuses and squander the lives of our youth and innocent victims through their fear and hate of strangers who they don't mind wiping off the earth through war. It raises when they consider Bush God's chosen leader. It raises against their bigotry and hypocrisy of morals. I could go on - I've already said a lot in earlier posts. I seethe when I think that they will put up a banner over their churches or send a card at Christmas that says Peace On Earth. They are the drummers of war on their fellow citizens and most strangers.

[sherilocks]

18. Thank you for the insightful post

I do have a question that you might be able to answer.

During the anti-war movement in the sixties and seventies, the ranks were filled with religious people of all faiths speaking out against the Vietnam war. The Iraq war is an unjust war, perhaps more so than Vietnam. Now all I hear speaking out are the Right-wing Christian war-monger zealot religious leader who have put their stamp of approval on the Iraq war. Where are the religious leaders today? I never hear from the true Christian leaders who should by definition oppose this war.

[Padraig18]

20. The Pope opposes it, and so do the American bishops.

I can't find the bookmark now, but every major denomination in the country (except the Southern Baptists, IIRC) opposed the war. I can't speak as to why the media ignores this fact, but they do.

:shrug:

[ilovenicepeople]

51. Is it true that the pope warned that GWB is the antichrist

and he wishs he was in better health to battle this evil?

[Padraig18]

58. Well, sorta kinda maybe...

He believes that Bush is TERRIBLY misguided, not only about the war, but on many social issues. As to his health, I'm quite sure he wishes it were better, for many reasons.

:hi:

[kath]

63. Yes, many religious leaders spoke up against the war BEFORE it

started, but they have been *awfully* silent since. Shameful.

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. They are all around you, it is just that it will take time for

you to find them

It is like this, resistance has started, yet it is hard to see yet

And religious people who do not believe in this madness have not been given neary of a voice.

But here is some hope for you

Not only did the Pope condemn it, and lord he knows evil when he sees it, but so did Bush's own minister. For this story you will have to go to the Guardian.

Our leaders have been silenced by our media who refuses to give them any voice, so we are now those reporters

Also the early days of resistance in the 1960s was done the same way as today, in an underground wiht alternate news media and alternate means of communication

Open your eyes and you will see it...

[Padraig18]

28. Our bishop organized an anti-war March in Feb. 2003.

He was right there in the front ranks, and gave a real fire-and-brimstone speech, too. Our parish priest organized candlelight prayer vigils, etc. . We're there, but the media has ignored the fact.

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. Thanks for proving the point

;-)

And the media WILL CONTINUE TO IGNORE YOu as long as they can...

Tehy did in the 1960s, why change now?

It is just that most people truly do not realize how long it took for the "movement" to enter the consiciousness of Americans back then

[Lydia Leftcoast]

31. Churches sent delegations to most of the anti-invasion demos I

participated in, but of course, the news coverage focused on the weirdest-looking protestors, not on the gray-haired types marching under the banners of the various chruches.

[Padraig18]

32. Wasn't it pathetic?

We had grandmothers and fathers and priests, nuns, high-school kids, etc., and like you said, they always picked out someone who the least representative person there to focus the camera on.

*sigh*

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. I learned many years ago that those who follow

the moral codes of their chosen religion and carry on the works prescribed by that faith (whether Jewish, Christian, or left handed widdget) are not the preachy and scraemy types

Now this is a real life incident

Yesterday, for reasons that I yet to undesrstand, I engaged a fundy in a discusion on the meaning of Christmas. I was informed by my discusion with seminary students during many a long night on December 24th, when I took the watch. As a Jew I really felt that this was a family event and if I could send any of my guys home, so be it. So I took the watch wiht a partner of miine and stood by for any EMS call, regardless of its nature.

Well I told this gal, the true meaning of christmas is a celebration of life in the midts of winter, and its miracle as well as the arrival of the Lord, it is not in gift giving and it is not in any comercial concerns

She went on how wrong I was, since gift giving was done in ancinet times and was meant to symbolize the three wize men.

Having grwon in a country when January 6th is a day to celebrate the wise men, I knew better,,, and countered that this was a family holiday to celebrate revelation as given in the miracle of life in an impossible dark time of the year, the midst of winter.

Well as this was going on a Minister from a local very progesive church intervened and told the fundie that I was right, and she should be ashamed that somebody who has not received Christ message knew far better the true meaning of the season... fundie left in a hoof, and we started talking about how to transmit that to his flock, and how to stop the war and the machine... we talked extensively of MLK, and Ghandhi and god darmn it forgot to exchange phone numbers... for it woudl be great to go to his church, in one of the most depressed areas of town, to help them figure out ways to surive this and also resist.

[CarbonDate]

21. Thank you for your work.

However, religious progerssives need to stop working so silently. I, as a pagan, cannot speak to Christians about why my politics are more compatable with their religious beliefs. You can.

Christian progressives like you and pagan progressives like me are allies, neighbors, and fellow Americans. But I can't frame people's view-points in that light, since it comes across as self-serving; you have to.

[sundancekid]

22. what a terrific post -- you have my deep gratitude -- kudos!

[The Wielding Truth]

37. Have you been in communication with any high profile Born Agains?

It is great to hear from you, but we respect all religions and have a strong moral spine.We need you to crack the shell of the right wing.
They are mesmerized by media fear and propaganda. Could you sit next to a Right-wing leader and awaken their true compassion . We are not even allowed to enter their vision. That's what we need.

[fugue]

27. My rule of thumb for convincing people

Adopt their universe's view while trying to convince them of something. It's OK to let them know that's not your worldview, but people aren't going to be convinced by an argument that ignores or even denies the way they view the world.

An example from my real life: Back when I worked in an office rather than telecommuting, I found myself in a discussion with a vegan (I am an aspiring vegan who just can't give up ice cream yet). She was (presumably still is) a devout Catholic. She said that she had had a discussion with some other Catholics, who were of the opinion that a vegan could not take Communion or, if she did, her veganism was hypocritical. Catholics believe in transsubstantiation (that is, that the host and the wine literally become the body and blood of Jesus).

I'm an agnostic. I could've said, "Oh, please, does the host wafer taste like meat? You know it's just starch." That, however, would've hurt her feelings and denied her problem. I told her, "Tell them that when you hear an animal say 'Eat me,' you'll do just that." Her eyes widened. "You're right! Christ did invite us!" (The biblical reference for Communion, for my fellow heathens, is at the Last Supper where Jesus said, "Do this in remembrance of me.") I assume she so told them. I know she remained a vegan and a practicing Catholic for the remainder of the time I knew her.

That's got to be the strategy. Yeah, it may require you to get more familiar with the bible than you really want to. But do you want to convince these folks or crush them? We're liberals. We're supposed to embrace difference, not deny it.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

38. Good point!

You'll never turn a fundie into an atheist (or even a Democrat) by telling them that the world wasn't created in six days. For one thing, their preachers have "inoculated" them against those kinds of approaches.

That conversion comes AFTER they realize that their preachers have been manipulating them.

You have to come at them from a direction they aren't expecting--from the perspective of their own beliefs.

[karlrschneider]

33. Thanks. As an atheist who nevertheless agrees with Jesus' teachings,

I can appreciate your stance very well. :D

[Padraig18]

39. Thank you.

:hi:

[Beam Me Up]

34. As someone who embraces integrity without religion and yet respects

the language of religion, I salute you.

I am not a Christian--but I understand that there is within humankind the POTENTIAL for a 'Christ Consciousness'--that is, for a quality of being 'higher' than our 'fallen' state of fragmentation.

Feed the hungry. Clothe the poor. These are social necessities and they are also outward SYMBOLS of our own INNER poverty. My stomach may be full but my heart still hungers; My body is clothed well enough, but what raiment has my spirit of life?

[ulysses]

35. take this in the sprit in which it's intended, Paddy,

but I hope y'all aren't waiting for a green light from the rest of us to take action. It's not right or fair, but you folks get to carry at least part of the burden engendered by your - how to say? - stupider bretheren. Don't wait for the secular left to recover a sense of balance concerning religion. Act.

[Padraig18]

36. Oh, I hear you.

I think you'll shortly find us much less quiet than we've been. All we ask is that you meet us with a welcoming hand, instead of a slamming door.

:hi:

[neohippie]

40. Discussion is always welcome with me.

I love a good discussion. I was raised by a Catholic and a Protestant.

I have attended the services of many faiths and studied many religions. I consider myself a moral person, I have adopted tenets of many faiths. I know I am more than just my flesh, I strive to make good choices, I fail, but I get back up and do it all again.

I am probably too moderate for some people on this board, and too liberal for others, but I am here to raise my voice as well as my spirit in these trying times.

This is a place for discussion not for indoctrination. As long as people continue to discuss ideas freely, here I will remain.

[ulysses]

41. you'll get the welcoming hand from me and many others,

not so much from some. Don't let that deter you.

[Padraig18]

43. It won't.

I'm an Irish kid from da Sout' Side, so I'm tougher than that.

;)

[PopSixSquish]

42. Preach it Brother Padraig!

My father is a retired Episcopal priest and a proud "Roosevelt Democrat" Decorum prevents me from repeating his thoughts on such folk as Pat Robertson.

I got all my liberal teachings from him.

[Padraig18]

45. Got mine from my Gran.

She's a devout RC, and just slightly left of most socialists.

:)

[LadyinRed]

46. Thank you for your post

We can make a difference. Weeks ago, I saw the faces of those who voted for Bush in 2000, look doubtful (about him) as we discussed this Election. I didn't push for "words" of "I will vote differently this time", but I believe some people did. These were people who I thought would never listen to me without arguing some ridiculous moral agenda.
They did sit quietly and listen to reality.

This may not sound like much, but I have been partially disabled with a bad shoulder for several months, unable to drive very much and I am in Alabama.



Edit: Spelling. (My typing has been affected, also.)

[Ladyhawk]

47. We desperately need your help.

Please.

[Padraig18]

50. You've got it!

We've got your back, and all we ask is a respectful audience when we speak up.

:hi:

[Ladyhawk]

53. You bet. We really need this. n/t

[quaker bill]

48. Thanks Padraig

Our meeting does what it can to lead, and we will be doing more.

Our members joined with some secular liberals and members of the local Unitarian Church to organize the first anti-Iraq protests. We continue to work feeding the poor and raising funds for charities.

We will be doing more. We had a great interfaith rally on November 1. One of the featured speakers was Michael Moore. Alot of good connections were made. We will be reaching out much more broadly into the community.

[Crowdance]

52. "Halfway"--what, specifically, does that mean?

I always like to walk into a deal knowing exactly what is expected of me. What does "halfway" mean? Does it mean, for example, that progressives like me must agree to the elimination of women's reproductive rights? Does it mean we support marriage discrimination against gays? Does it mean we don't speak up when religion promotes opinions, laws and funding strategies that are opposed to our individual principles? I can't be on board with that.

Or, does it mean we listen to your contribution to how we "frame" our argument, without capitulating our principles. We then adopt the suggestions that work for us. I can be on board with that.

Or, are you suggesting something else entirely?

[Padraig18]

55. It means the latter.

We know how to speak to people of faith in a language they understand. In essence, we know how to make progressive ideas and values non-scary, which is something our party needs help with.

:hi:

[Crowdance]

61. Then I'm on board

I'm looking forward to your proposals!

[Padraig18]

62. Cool!

We want the same progressive agenda that you do, and maybe we can help get it for us all.

:)

[Kat45]

57. I'm not Paddy, but I think I know what he means.

Many progressive Christians are for gay rights; many are prochoice. Folks I met from Catholics for Kerry showed me an article explaining how they felt they could be good Catholics who were pro-choice. My Christian church is doing a study to decide whether to become an "open and affirming" church, which means GLBT people would be allowed to fully participate in our church, including becoming clergy and getting married.

I assumed that by meeting halfway, he means to not immediately disparage religion, not assume that anyone religious is a hate-mongering fundie. Not refer to believers as people who believe myths. No matter what your beliefs, or lack of, be open-minded when those of us who believe speak. If the person is a fundie, you'll know soon enough and have plenty of time to speak up. But the person could easily be a progressive Christian and a good ally in your causes.

[Kat45]

54. I've been trying to do the same thing.

I'm a Christian who is really fed up with the right-wing fundies trying to hijack Christianity. They have the voice and the money so they are the only representation non-religious people get of Christianity. My pastor and other fellow congregants in my church (UCC) feel the same way.

I am also trying to figure out ways to get the true Christian message out on a wider basis. When I was volunteering for Kerry, I met folks from a group called Catholics for Kerry. They're good people, sincere Catholics, and they were trying to let other Catholics know that voting for Kerry was compatible with their faith. They will be continuing as a group called Catholic Democrats.

:hi:

[Padraig18]

56. Our bishop was very clear about voting.

He made it crystal-clear in a pastoral letter that 'one-issue' voters were NOT what the Church wanted; he said that one must consider the totality of a politician's record and character when deciding who to vote for.

:)