CA Licenses for illegals question: Motor Voter

[Hanuman]

It looks like this bill is going to pass and Davis will sign it soon. Okay, fine. I think it's a dumb law, but okay. However, I have listened to several interviews with various Assembly people and politicians as well as sundry news reports on the subject and no one has been able to answer the question of the possible "Moter Voter Loophole."

As you know if you're a resident of the state of California, when you obtain a drivers license you may check off a box on the form that asks if you'd like to be registered to vote. No one I have heard so far has been able to say that there is any provision in the bill that prohibits an illegal alien from checking the box and having the registration process move forward normally (I use the term "illegal alien" intentionally here, not to be crass but to be realistic- it's very likely that there may be people from all over the world here in an illegal capacity and for a wide variety of purposes, attempting to get drivers licenses- not just immigrants from Mexico and other Latin countries).

Every single interviewee I have heard has had an "I just don't know..." type of response.

Does anyone here have any specific knowledge regarding the workings of this bill that can ease my toubled mind? And forgive me if this topic has been covered elsewhere already.

[SoCalDem]

1. No matter where or how you register to vote

you must "prove" citizenship..That would require naturalization papers, birth certificate, or passport :)

[Hanuman]

2. Do you know how this is done?

Is it conducted at the DMV or at a later date, after you have submitted the papers with the box checked?

[AP]

3. You fill out the same voter application form everyone else fills out

and you just turn it in at the DMV.

It's the SAME FORM. You have to attest to citizenship.

[slackmaster]

8. Here's a link to California's voter registration form

You'll have to click Continue on the special message page:

https://ovr.ss.ca.gov/votereg/OnlineVoterReg

Note that a driver's license number OR last 4 digits of SSN is required. But no signature.

Giving illegal aliens a driver's license number will make it easier to fraudulently register. That is undisputable. It will still be fraudulent, but if the state does not cross-check names and driver's license numbers back to original DMV records the fraud may not ever be identified.

[AP]

11. Wrong. If you don't fill in that part of reg, it means that

you have to bring ID with you when you vote. They don't do that for citizenship. They ask that queston for identification purposes. The application does ask you to attest to your citizenship.

[Hanuman]

14. When you bring the ID in when you vote...

is the CA drivers license considered valid ID then?

[AP]

20. The indentification (whatever it is) isn't used as proof of citizenship

in the first place, so it makes no sense to deny immigrants the capacity to drive legally and a driver's license (which you need to be a part of the legitimate, rights-protected, unexploited economy) on the grounds that illegals will be able to vote as a result.

You have to pass a 50 question test to drive in CA. It's isn't easy, and you have to know the rules of the road. The one huge advantage of this law is that more people will learn the rules of the road.

As far as voting goes, you have to attest to your citizenship, under the threat of conviction for perjury, which is a risk no illegal would take just to be one of 30 million potential voters in CA.

We have to be removing hurdles to voting, and driving, and economic legitimacy, and not putting them up.

[slackmaster]

16. You always have to bring ID in when you vote

The application does ask you to attest to your citizenship.

It asks you to choose either the Yes or No radio button at the top. They mail you a paper registration card and you sign.

I am asked to show ID and sign a roster every time I vote.

[AP]

22. Not in any state I've ever voted in. Your signature has always

been enough ID for me.

[Hanuman]

27. Yes, that has been my experience in CA as well...

No ID necessary, just a signature. But I was allowing the possibility that if you did the paperwork through the mail, that perhaps before you voted the first time, you had to present ID since that aspect of the process had not been completed.

I don't know. Frankly, it seems that no one knows.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

30. As a former poll worker...you DO have to present your license or ID card

[AP]

33. Depends on the state. I can name four states that don't

require anything but your signature.

[pnb]

40. As another former poll worker...

It depends where you are. I know areas where a signature is the only thing necessary and even that is not even really checked.

[Hanuman]

51. Not in California, apparently.

.

[Dookus]

61. hrmm...

I've also been a poll worker in California, and we did NOT ask for ID. And I have never had to show my ID when I vote. I just give my name and address and sign in.

[dfong63]

63. i am an election clerk in CA, and there is no such provision

... the only case where we are instructed to ask a voter for ID is when they try to vote but don't show up on our rolls as a registered voter, or perhaps in other exceptional cases. there is NO provision for having two classes of voters, one that has to bring ID to vote and one that doesn't.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

13. Giving undocumented workers a drivers license doesn't lead to fraud

any more than giving them a job which is the duty of business to ensure is not happening..increase penalties to the agriculture, food service and hotel industries and the problem will diminish...of course prices will rise...so choose your poison.

[Hanuman]

17. Well, I appreciate your viewpoint, NSMA...

But I just want to get to the bottom of this issue. I do this by asking questions which are sometimes difficult to answer.

[slackmaster]

18. I'd rather have them earn a decent living than vote

Not to be harsh about it, but they really do have no right to vote here. I think they should have a right to work and to receive all the same benefits as a citizen. But no vote.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

25. But they don't have the right to vote or work here if undocumented

the difference is...one favors business...oops so does the other ...the perfect employee if you will.....has NO RIGHTS

[Hanuman]

31. Yes, I would like to see the issue of "illegal" immigration

solved by making it legal for anyone to come and work safely and easily- albeit in a legal, documented and controlled fashion. Immigration has it's benefits to our economy and society, but it must be done legally. I DO NOT condone half-measures like this bill that seems to open as many cans of worms as it hopes to seal.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

36. But this is an instance where the benefits to LEGAL citizens must be

weighed against the risks of illegal citizens. Given that there are 36 million people in this state and only 13 million of them voted in the last election, the benefits to LEGAL citizens FAR OUTWEIGHS any risk of the illegal citizen voting insofar as motor voter is concerned.

The benefits to LEGAL citizens of having illegal persons GET A DRIVERS LICENSE and THERFORE HAVE TO SHOW PROOF of insurance far outweighs any presumed voter fraud that will occur.

This vote is NOT a half measure of anything if the GOAL is to make sure more insured drivers are on the road. When one collapses the voting issue is the only time it makes less sense. Only ONE side of this argument seems to be comingling the issue and that is simply playing on fears.

Vote fraud has always been an issue played moreso out of fear.

If anything, the fraud has been in the votes NOT getting counted (as high as 10% I believe or greater with punch cards.

What I am saying is the issue you present is a RED HERRING compared to the issue of uninsured motorists.

[Character Assassin]

43. In that regard, this is an ineffective, cosmetic half-step

The benefits to LEGAL citizens of having illegal persons GET A DRIVERS LICENSE and THERFORE HAVE TO SHOW PROOF of insurance far outweighs any presumed voter fraud that will occur.

So I'm illegal, I go out and get the cheapest insurance policy, go to the DMV and get issued my license after showing them proof of insurance.

I wait, the card comes in the mail, and I call to cancel the insurance five minutes later and no longer have to make payments.

It seems like sheer fantasy to think that people already breaking the law and trying to save as much money as possible to live on or send back to a family in Mexico is suddenly going start obeying a legal requirement for insurance once the license has been issued.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

47. Got a better solution? I'm all ears. n/t

[Character Assassin]

53. My point is that it's not a solution at all

As such, I wouldn't support granting illegals licenses under the auspices of encouraging them to suddenly start getting (and keeping) insurance.

IOW, it's a problem that exists, but one that is left unaddressed by this measure.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

55. Then we disagree..I say it is better addressed by this than doing nothing

and increases revenues to the state with drivers license fees rather than letting people drive for free with no insurance.

[Character Assassin]

58. So it's basically just an expansion of a pre-existing tax

and increases revenues to the state with drivers license fees rather than letting people drive for free with no insurance.

A discretionary one, and one that in no way prevents those who pay it from driving without insurance.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

60. Of course it does...one month of insurance coverage is better than none at

all..and since driving is a privilege not a right it is perfectly appropriate to tax it and use those revenues to cover the costs associated with driving....there is nothing more democratic than the notion that one pays as they go.

[Character Assassin]

62. I'm not saying it's not appropriate; it is.

Taxes or fees for licenses are fine.

I'm saying that it's a misguided, cosmetic half-measure and that to maintain that one potential month of insurance is justification for it is, at the very least, highly exaggerated.

there is nothing more democratic than the notion that one pays as they go.

That's actually quite a libertarian notion, Ducky. We've been proposing it for years now.

[AP]

65. And if it's the difference between people using the roads

licenses and unlicensed, I'd rather have them licensed and payhing for their driver's license and their car registration, and insured, and educated about the rules of the road.

[AP]

64. You also have to take a written and an in-car test (the latter

if you've never been licensed to drive). You CANNOT pass this test without reading the 60 page rules of the road book.

Having people know the rules of the road can be the difference between a car accident and no car accident. It can be the difference between life and death in some cases.

[dfong63]

66. i agree

as long as there are any requirements for a license at all (proof of insurance, driving test, clean record), there will be many who will drive without a license. making it easier for one class of people to get their license won't eliminate the problem. the only answer that i can see is stricter enforcement of the license requirement. that should happen independently of whether the undocumented are allowed to get licenses.

[AP]

69. Tbe point of this law is to allow people who WANT a license to get it.

People who want a licence but can't get one are NOT going to get insurance. Your cannot get insurance if you don't have a driver's license.

So, you have this huge pool of people who want to operate within the legitimate world, but can't.

Are you telling me that NOBODY in that group of people who want to be legal drivers would go to the trouble of getting a license, but then say fuck it to insurance.

These people aren't necessarily totally impoverished. They're just working class people trying to do things right. If they want to and can get licenses, they can then get insurance too, which is good.

You people sometimes amaze me.

[dfong63]

75. right - the point is NOT to make the streets safer for citizens,

... it's to help people who "WANT" something to get it, regardless of whether they deserve it or whether it's good public policy. rewarding people for breaking the rules is NOT good public policy.

[AP]

79. The roads are SAFER when you have more tested, licensed drivers

on them.

Geez!

We don't have a policy to limit the number of drivers on the road. We have a policy to educated drivers about the traffic code and to make sure they're insured.

How in the world is that project served by shutting out people from the system?

The California DMV states in it's booklet "We want you to be licensed."

They want people to know how to drive and how to share the roads and how to be safe. CA is better off when everyone who wants and needs to drive is a licensed driver.

[Capn Sunshine]

4. Hey So Cal, what did you show them to register?

I didn't show anything, I did it by mail, and signed the little affadavit thingy that swears I am a legal citizen. I'm pretty sure voting registration is honor system. The penalties are pretty stiff and most illegals prefer to keep a lower profile than that. They come from countries where if you show up to vote at the wrong time you get killed.

There was that big brou hah hah with Dornan awhile back, claiming he lost to Loretta Sanchez because of illegals voting. They never found any evidence, but B-1 Bob went on every RW talk show in the country claiming this. He has been a horses ass his entire life; it's amazing you can make a living at that if you want

[SoCalDem]

10. I had a voter registration card, actually , from New Mexico

When we moved here, and I registered, I did NOT do it at the DMV. I went to the registrar of voters.. They asked for the bc, nat. papers, or a passport.. Since I did not have those with me, they accepted my voter reg card for NM and kept it.. I did have to show other id, to prove I was who I said I was..

To be perfectly blunt here, I think the BIGGER problem with voting, is the fact that REGISTERED voters are cheated out of their legal vote, by unscrupulous "vote manipulation" AFTER they voted, or by preventing them from voting in the first place, when they were entitled..


Could someone present phony documentation, and be allowed to vote?? Perhaps in some cases, but like someone mentioned, "most" undocumented workers are so afraid of being :found out", that they would be too afraid to even try to vote..

[haymaker]

5. As long as it is "de facto" legal

that "illegal" immigrants can come to the US and go to work and make money, then they should be able to legally drive. They drive regardless, without education regarding our traffic laws and without insurance.

If you want to stop the "illegal" alien problem, or problems associated with "illegals", then make it illegal to put them to work, and make the penalties so stiff that it would put you out of business if you hired them. With no jobs, then they wouldn't come here. If they could not work, they would mostly stay home.

Who is it that hires most of the illegals anyway? Exactly, Cheap-Labor Republicans.

[AP]

6. If people are license to drive, they're probably way more likely to insure

and that's good for everyone.

[Hanuman]

7. I don't want to stop immigration...

I don't know what you're talking about or why you felt the need to make that statement.

But I AM against giving legal driving licenses to people who did not immigrate legally. There's a difference.

[haymaker]

15. I made the statement because

I felt like it. No really, because it is another example of an issue that the Repukes use to bullshit their so-called base. Like abortion, gun control, 10 commandments in public, etc., etc. They have no intention of stopping the flow of cheap labor into the US, they just use that issue to fire up poeple like you.

The reason they are here is to work. I have no problem with it actually. They work hard. But if they couldn't get work, most of them would not come, therefore, there would be no illegal driving illegals.

As long as they can come here to work, then they should be able to drive. Get it?

So thanks for the perfectly "right in line" post, especially the way you tied it to voter registration.

[Hanuman]

23. You think the potential of voter fraud is "Bullshit?"

I would refer you to the endeavours of BevHarris among others who disagree. Because the potential fraud issue in this case happens to be coming down on our side does not make it a "bullshit" issue. Fraud is wrong in any aspect, from any source. To not ask questions and know the truth is willfull ignorance and is sad, in my opinion.

I just want to know for an absolute fact that this law will not allow illegal aliens to vote. I want to see the provisions in the bill that make it so- or some very well articulated example of how it is impossible.

So far I have only seen a number of contradictory statements, off the topic excuses and veiled accusations.

[haymaker]

24. Describe the fraud that you fear

so much. Are you afraid of Mexicans flocking to the polls? Or is it Germans?

Is there some organized effort out there to enlist millions of illegals to vote a certain way? If so, which way? And how do you motivate them?

Just give me your nightmare scenario.

[Hanuman]

32. Nightmare scenario:

One illegal alien of any race or ethnicity obtains a license and through beaurocratic failings or mismanagement or innattentiveness is registered to vote. That alien votes in any election without being a naturalized citizen.

That is my "nightmare scenario."

The right to vote is held exclusively for citizens of the US in my book.

[SoCalDem]

35. That's not really such a "scary" nightmare..

:scared:..

A scarier nightmare, is BEING registered, going to where you are supposed to vote, and finding the place not even open, or not havinig transportation to GO vote, or being told that you are NOT registered, when you know you ARE, or voting with the "majority" and then finding out, that "a Diebold Miracle" has occurred, and the 15 point lead (polling reports) that your candidate had a few hours before, have suddenly "morphed" into a loss by 10 points.. (See Georgia)

I can assure you that for every MEXICAN (we know that's who you really mean)who manages to vote, there will be MANY more legitimate voters who are disenfranchised by repube "voting police",and they will more than compensate for the occasional "illegal"..

Anyway, aren't "they" too busy to vote?? What with mowing your lawn, and washing your cars, and babysitting your kids, and picking your produce, and cleaning your houses and offices, and ironing your clothes?? (Figurative use of "your"..)

[Hanuman]

45. well, it was only a matter of time

until the vitriol started to spew.

When you can't articulate how this bill will curtail voting fraud, just come up with all of the justifications and excuses for why voting fraud "ain't so bad after all ."

The veiled accusations of racism. Ahhh!! How refreshing!

[haymaker]

46. No one's using anything veiled.

We're just on to your shit.

[SoCalDem]

52. Tucker, is that YOU??

:)

[haymaker]

39. Call in the National Guard,

we got us an immenent threat to the security of the US. A Mexican illegal, risking severe prison sentence or deportation, snuck through the system and cast a vote for, wait, who did he vote for?

You see, you have proved my point. It is nothing more than Repuke grandstanding to get a certain unnamed segment of the population(white males)hysterical over something of little consequence. When it is them, wealthy Repuke supporters, that are the root cause of the problem.

Get it yet? It is a sham, as usual.

Talk about displaced ideological hysteria. Why aren't you bitching about the voter purge in FL before the last election? Or the many other fraudulent tactics employed by the Repuke army before, during, and after Election 2000?

[SoCalDem]

44. National Guard?? You SILLY...

They are "busy" looking for Saddam:)..

But, maybe since a Mexican voting is such an emergency, they could put in for an emergeny transfer back to the US, so they could patrol the polling locations.. I am sure we would get many "volunteers" for that duty :)

[haymaker]

48. Maybe that's the answer

to that pesky Iraq war problem. Just the excuse Duh needs to bring 'em home.

"We gotta get our boys home to keep the polls alien free."
- Duh Bush

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

28. Question for you

Given that they can walk into any post office, fill out a form and accomplish the same, why the irrational fear associated with a drivers' license?

Rememeber...citizenship is a federal issue...why should the state even concern itself rather than making sure the FEDS do their job?

[Hanuman]

34. I don't have the answer to that question...

because it seems that no one has been able to answer it.

You're actually probably right that obtaining a voter registration card is as easy as going into the post office. But, it takes that spark of intent to actually do so. To go in there and get it and fill it out. Perhaps, when it is presented to you on the DMV license form as merely a check box, the intent is lessened considerably. Perhaps also, the process is expedited somewhat when this business is conducted at the DMV. And finally, perhaps having a valid state license in hand is a stepping stone to achieving the registration to vote.

I honestly don't know. But this business has me asking questions and suspicious.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

37. But are you saying it's easier to get a license than a card at a counter

at the post office?

[Hanuman]

49. I am saying that voting registration may not be

even in the mind of the illegal alien attempting to procure a drivers license. But upon doing so, he/she is presented with the option to do so on the DMV form. Intent is lessened.

What happens after that is very uncertain. I don't know how the process works quite frankly because I have never registered to vote in this manner. I was hoping that someone here could assuage my suspicious mind, taht it might be fairly easy to carry this process out to completion.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

56. Again....assauging a suspicion based on a fear that isn't rational isn't

possible..it's like being afriad to jump in the water. There are many avenues for one to vote illegally ...a bigger concern is those that vote legally and don't have their votes counted.

[David Zephyr]

83. Yes.

That is the entire issue.

[dfong63]

67. that doesn't follow

As long as they can come here to work, then they should be able to drive. Get it?

that is not a logical argument. if you believe that kind of logic, where does it end? "as long as they can come here to work, they should be able to vote"?? why not? in fact there are good practical and philosophical reasons to restrict many of our rights as citizens to ONLY legal citizens.

otherwise, there is no incentive to follow the rules of the system to become a legal citizen. the illegals would have the best of both worlds.

even your premise is highly suspect. if you think they "can" work here even though it is illegal, then by the same token, then "can" drive here even though it is illegal.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

19. But if they are given a job after emigrating illegally and are paying into

social security (which they cannot collect) after emigrating illgally...what's the big deal? It's ok to TAKE FROM THEM?

[Clete]

9. When I lived in Chile, I had a driver's permit for

foreign residents. Also, Chile had a general ID back then. This was before the Henry Kissinger and CIA aided coup. Everyone who lived there whether citizen or not had to have one, so information like that was on the ID.

I personally would like to see anyone driving in the USA have a license that states that they have been tested, know our laws, and know how to drive. I think a different application as well as separate license would be appropriate for non-citizens, no matter what their status is.

Remember this also would force these people to get insurance. I was in an accident with an uninsured, unlicensed driver, who was an illegal alien from Denmark, not Mexico. So I had to foot the bill. There really was no legal recourse.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

12. If you worry about vote fraud, look no further than Florida where the

president was chosen, Texas where the Republican party is attempting to rewrite the rules, or California where 3 months after the governow was elected a recall was petitioned.

I find it humorous that a couple thousand Mexicans is an issue for you ( and yeah...you meant illegal Mexicans)

[AP]

21. To get a drivers license in CA, you have to take a written test

which is impossible to pass without reading the rule book. If you've never had a drivers license before, you have to take the written test AND the practical test.

The biggest benefit of this law is that more people will learn the rules of driving, which just might save other CA'ians a lot of money in unneccessary property damage, and it may even save their lives.

[hunter]

26. It's not a "dumb" law.

The problem now is that when an "illegal alien" crashes into you while you are driving, they never have any insurance, and they never have any identification. Local officials find this a pain in the ass to deal with, so they tend to let it slide. Maybe they take away the illegal alien's P.O.S. car, which is usually worth about $300, and let the illegal alien walk, because the jail is full of more troublesome offenders. The illegal alien has no incentives but to disappear for awhile.

With drivers licenses a few illegal aliens might actually buy car insurance, but more importantly, it would decrease the "pain in the ass" factor for the local police and judicial system. The illegal alien who has a traffic violation or an accident is simply another Joe in their eyes.

It doesn't matter if the guy is in the country illegally or not, that's a problem for somebody else to deal with, it shouldn't be the problem of the local traffic cop or court.

[AP]

29. And if they have to take a test to get a license, they might

learn a few traffic laws which will prevent the accident in the first place.

[dfong63]

68. either that, or not take the test

if the license requirement isn't being enforced, the bad drivers (whether undocumented or not) will continue to drive w/o license. giving out more licenses won't address that problem. the supporters of this bill are making a bogus argument.

[AP]

71. Having a drivers license is good for so many reasons.

People WANT drivers licenses. Having those people go through the process of being tested and licensed is good for everyone who drives on the roads or walks near roads or has any kind of valuable property a poorly driven car can destroy.

(And just because I responded to your post doesn't mean I understand what you're trying to argue. I don't think you're making any sense at all.)

[Hanuman]

38. I think you actually made the case that it IS dumb:

If the driver can't afford better than a $300 POS car, why is he going to dig deep to get insurance to cover it?

My car insurance for two cars is about $2000 a year. How many of these folks are going to cough that up? Until I started getting decent jobs (about the age of 26) I drove without insurance because I couldn't afford it. I predict only a very small minority of these drivers will carry a legitimate policy. But I could be wrong.

[AP]

41. Cheaper the care, the cheaper the insurance. Many people

who can afford it buy a second cheap car and call that their primary car so that they can get lower insurance rates.

And I assure you that people who don't have a license, they aren't buying ANY insurance.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

42. In California you have to show proof of insurance for licenses and

registration. Not dumb.

[Hanuman]

50. That old trick of cancelling the minute you get it

is known to all.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

57. Please pony up the proof of that...I think it is a wives' tale

and since registrations are annual that's one month more of insurance than they had before.

[AP]

70. Furthermore, like I said above, these people who will get licenses

as a result of this law are people who probably want to be legal drivers and couldn't because of the law. They WANT to be legitimate. Since you can't insure yourself without a driver's license, I just think once you get this pool of people with good intentions getting their licenses (and learning the traffic code in the process) MANY of them will continue on this road to legitimacy and will get insurance too.

[Hanuman]

76. I can't "pony up" proof- any more than you can...

pony up proof that these drivers WILL in fact get insurance. It's anybody's guess.

What I will say is this: I drove without insurance in the state of California for six years without getting caught. I was young, dumb and broke. To me it was a financial decision- nothing more nothing less. I'm not proud of the fact.

And I know that it can be done. I had an insurance policy, couldn't afford to keep it up, let it lapse and kept driving anyway. It's pretty simple.

[AP]

78. Well. my gosh, why'd you ever stop driving without insurance

once you saw that it could be done!?!?

That's sarcasm.

Getting a drivers license is the route to legitimacy that can lead people out of poverty and towards socially valuable behaviour like getting car insurance.

And if you're illegal and not totally impoverished, like many are, you'll probably skip the part where you're driving uninsured.

And Hanuaman, were you an immigrant? I seriously doubt that if you're goal is to get peopl driving insured cars that it makes any sense to shut out immigrants from the system. It probably helps if you lift up the poor and have a competitve insurance market.

[Hanuman]

80. This just in: AAA says there's no evidence

that this bill will encourage illegals from acquiring and keeping valid insurance. That statement came from a AAA spokesman today.

[AP]

82. AAA is run by auto-industry friendly right wingers

do they say they have evidence it won't?

It just logically follows that if you want to go legitimate, you're not going to stop at the driver's licence, especially if one fo the reasons you couldn't get insurance (if you wanted it) was because you didn't have the license.

[hunter]

54. It's not about the insurance...

It's about getting people to be responsible drivers.

Yes, maybe most illegal aliens won't have insurance (a lot of "legal" citizens don't have insurance either) but they will have taken drivers examinations, and they will have some sort of identification. Illegal aliens or not, they will have some small "stake" in the system, and the local traffic authorities won't have to waste a lot of time figuring out who they are and what they should do with them.

If illegal aliens have driver's licenses, they can be treated like any other driver, and maybe this will allow the local authorities to apply more pressure to anyone who doesn't bother to get a license, illegal alien, or not.

[SoCalDem]

59. Legislating responsibity will never work, anyway..

Basically, if you are tall enough to reach the pedals, and you have access to a car, you're gonna drive.. The ones who have "nothing to lose", will never give up driving..

If you have a home, job or other valuables, you are likely to carry insurance to protect what you have, but if you are transient and have nothing of value to protect, you might just take a chance and not have insurance..

I "know" people who have driven an unregistered,uninsured car for YEARS, and with an expired license.. They figured that if and when they got "caught", they would "deal" with it then :shrug:

[AP]

72. I'm thinking racism is making people say stupid things in this thread.

I'm sure just about everyone posting to this thread is a legal, insured driver.

Why do so many assume that dark-skinned immigrants aren't motivated by the same things you're motivate by, which result in you getting licensed and insured?

Could it be a little racism? Do you think dark skinned people born in different countries didn't inherit the gene which makes you act rationally in the face of civil and criminal law? Don't they have the money-math gene, which helps you figure out that a little insurance now is cheaper than a civil claim for a much larger sum.

Sure, some people, immigrant or not, are pushed to the edges of the law thanks to mental or financial problems, but, c'mon, just because a person is an immigrant doesn't mean they're going to behave much the same way we all do.

[Gin]

73. Illegal is the operative word. If Davis signs this, I dont care what

happpens to him. Why have laws?

[AP]

74. what are you talking about.

We have laws so that people are prevented from contributing to the economy. We have laws so that everyone has an equal opporunity on a level playing field. And we do this so that we can have a happier and wealthier overall society.

We have laws to overcome stupid prejudices that would lead uninformed people to prefer a world in which people are forced to the margins just to make a very few, very wealthy people wealthier.

[SoCalDem]

77. The people I knew who drove unlicensed, unregistered

were NOT hispanic, and my post said nothing about the ethnicity of them.. They were just a couple who were down on their luck, and bounced from apartment to apartment with all their belongings in boxes and clothes baskets.. They had a car and got by without paying anything for about 6 years, before he got a ticket.. He "threw himself on the mercy of the court", told their sob story and ended up getting a 6 month suspended sentence and a fine.. His wife explained, that overall it was cheaper than if they had paid for insurance & registration for those years.. Technically, they were right, but overall they were wrong for doing it.. With as many cars as there are in CA, some people play the law of averages..

[hunter]

81. Politics Raw and Bloody on the Plate...

This is not about voting.

Yes, I know, I'm supposed to be afraid that hordes of illegal aliens will start voting, and before I know it, I'll be a Mexican citizen.

Actually California is supporting this because we are tired of cleaning up after the Federal government. The Federal government wants state and local officials to be their immigration police, but they don't want to pay for it.

But not for one second do I believe that illegal aliens are any more of a danger to me than our very own homegrown citizens.

Right now I'm thinking about the guy I saw today in a big SUV who was yelling into his cellphone and not paying attention to traffic, or the guy who just bought his party animal sixteen year old son a very fast car.

Quite frankly that 1987 Chevy with six farmworkers in it doesn't bother me at all.

Allowing illegal aliens to have drivers licenses will make the enforcement of our traffic laws more efficient. Every time an illegal alien has an accident, or doesn't quite stop at a stop sign, things won't escalate into "Federal Cases." The cops will simply write accident reports, or tickets, and get on with their work.

Just last year I got hit by a driver who didn't have insurance. It sucked because the damage was $1200, and there is a $500 deductible on my own insurance. I don't know if he was an "illegal alien" or not, and I don't care. The police didn't tell me, and they probably don't care either.

I haven't got my car fixed yet because dents and scratches don't bother me much. But, oooooooh, I hear illegal aliens are working in all the body shops around here, so I guess I'm screwed.

[David Zephyr]

84. It Is Silly to Deny These People Driver's Licenses

I fully support the new law and Gray Davis should have supported it a lot earlier.