Thanksgiving is a celebration of genocide. Flame away.

[hangemhigh]

I reject it. It's a manufactured event to deny the fact that our indigenous tribes were murdered for white men. I'm sure they called it freedom on the march back then, too. It is an example of American greed, gluttony, excess and mis-spent emotion for a false sentiment.

Do I enjoy the nearness of family and friends over the holiday? Of course. Love a good meal? Who doesn't?

This year, however, I will observe the day in quiet contemplation and fasting to honor past victims of war and current ones, including our troops. I have plenty to be thankful for, plenty to give. I can demonstrate that to those around me daily and I do and will continue to. But the pilgrims/turkey/Indians story is bullshit...convince me otherwise...I do not honor it anymore.

[seaj11]

1. I see your point...

I'm not too sure about the history of it, either. But I do use it as a time to celebrate family and friends.

[WindRavenX]

2. I agree

That's why I always bring that fact up and emphasize it.
I wish there was just a "family holiday" sort of deal..

[StClone]

3. It's a theme then!

Bush is all for it and Iraqis should be proud in participating!

[alittlelark]

4. No flames... I agree

Thanksgiving is not a terribly popular holiday among Native Americans.

[NewHampshireDem]

5. Do you really think anyone here is so simple ...

as to believe the "pilgrims/turkey/Indians story"? Come on now ... give us some credit.

[Pirate Smile]

6. Awww, you're making my turkey sad.

gobble, gobble.

[hangemhigh]

10. Don't let him cry-

The meat will be tough-

[dorktv]

7. Thanksgiving is a harvest festival type of thing.

Just because what happened after the first group of Pilgrims was throughly nasty and horrible does not mean that the first Thanksgiving was not a simple celebration of life that happens at the end of all growing seasons.

[hangemhigh]

14. The myth, however, is perpetuated.

Using the same logic, then we will someday celebrate the liberation of Iraq with a family meal? (I'm not trying to bait you, just interested in other viewpoints) Peace.

[Astrochimp]

22. yep, another ancient "Amerianized".........

Most of the pagan customs that gathered round the harvest season have either disappeared or have been obscured so the celebrants have no notion of what they are celebrating.


Although the U.S. have nationalized Thanksgiving, celebrations were held in ancient times to give thanks for the bountiful harvest. The Greeks honored Demeter, the goddess of agriculture, with a 9 day celebration; the Romans honored Ceres, Anglo-Saxons rejoiced with a feast to celebrate the reaping of the harvest


Long before biblical times the ancient people of the Mediterranean Basin held festivals at harvest time in honor of the earth mother. The goddess of the corn ('corn' being the European term for any grain; , was always one of the most important deities in the hierarchy of the gods, and her child was the young god of vegetation.'

The ancient Semites called the earth mother Astarte...The Phrygians called her Semele. These deities were absorbed by the Greeks into the one great goddess, Demeter.' 'The Roman also had a harvest festival which they called the Cerelia, after Ceres, the Roman goddess of the corn.'


http://qumran.com/Holiday_Files/thanksgiving_day.htm


David

[hangemhigh]

26. And this is why...

I love DU......thank you.

[BlueEyedSon]

8. You mean all the murdered turkeys?

Are you really Howard Zinn?

[hangemhigh]

9. LOL! nt

[BlueEyedSon]

12. Glad you took it the right way!

:)

[Rowdyboy]

11. Hope you have a pleasant day!

I certainly expect to...

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

13. As a direct descendant of the Wampanoags

namely Massasoit's brother, I will say that I agree with you. The Native people are the reason the Pilgrims survived. And their reward was to be marginalized, "Christianized" (read that the destruction of the Native culture), and finally destroyed, either by chemical warfare (smallpox tainted blankets given to the Natives) or war (there were many, many wars with the Natives in MA, RI, and CT before 1692). I am not proud of my European ancestors who helped destroy the Native culture in New England.

[hangemhigh]

16. I am 1/16 Choctaw...

on the rolls but clearly a white girl. I have just begun to study and learn about my ancestry in the past few years. I cannot accept the myth of Thanksgiving if I accept the fact of what was done before me...

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

18. I have Choctaw friends in Hugo OK

and I have heard the horror stories about being punished if they spoke their native language, how they lost their ceremonies, etc. Very, very sad. (BTW, there are a lot of Choctaws living in AR as well, including some folks I know in Newton Co who also are on the rolls but look white)

[hangemhigh]

21. It's a great learning experience...

to be "white" and a member of the tribe. I, for one, am grateful for the paradox...grew up in Shawnee, OK. BTW.

[immoderate]

30. Where's AR?

--IMM

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

39. Next to OK

that's the abbreviation for the state of Arkansas.

[MichiganVote]

15. Ok. More for me.

[theorist]

17. So would it be productive or counterproductive to...

spend Thanksgiving day gambling in a casino on an Indian reservation? Just curious.

[hangemhigh]

19. Can't say....

not a gambler. But I don't begrudge the tribes one dime of the gaming profits. Interesting point, though.

[lightbulb]

20. screw all holidays for that matter

Christmas is just a remnant of pagan winter solstice celebrations which were adopted and perverted by the Church, which has further been reduced to a frantic, stress-inducing study of mass consumerism/materialism.

Halloween is just a remnant of pagan harvest festivals which mean nothing to our modern culture which is largely devoid of any spiritual connections to the earth or nature in general. All we know is you have to buy silly costumes and tons of poisonous refined sugar and chemicals for the children to devour in mass quantities.


Yes, I am playing devil's advocate. My point being that it's sometimes good to shut off that analytical side and just go along and enjoy good food, family, and friends.

[The Straight Story]

23. Were the indians all that much better

I can understand your thoughts, but Indians were just as brutal to each other as we were to them. Thanksgiving can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people. Make it your holiday if you wish.

Part of my problem with this view is that it is a culture thing which runs deep with people, not many sit around talking about pilgrims and indians. They have co-opted it to meet their needs but keep the traditions of it (ie turkey, football, etc). We can attack the base of the holiday, and all others, and what does it really accomplish??

Indians screwed over and killed indians, we did the same thing (to themselves and each other over history). If anything the day of thanksgiving is to celebrate the things we give thanks for and to recognize that at one moment in time maybe we were all able to get along. What occured after that day is another story, but for one day we can be thankful for the goodness people showed to each other. Maybe that will rub off over time.

I grew up in the 60's and 70's, to me it is no wonder so many voted against a party that wants to destroy their heritage and traditions by telling them that they are evil, wrong, and based on only genocide. People see beyond that, to many thanksgiving is about way more than one day in the past. It is about today, not yesterday. Those who want to live in the past are free to do so, but we are a different world today, more advanced, still a long way to go, but getting there. It is an American tradition which has deep roots into the minds and hearts, as well as the memories, of many people today.

This thanksgiving - well I talked to my mom about an hour ago. She is in the hospital and will be in surgery this weekend and will miss the big day here. We moved next door to her this year, had a big shindig planned with all of family and she is having major surgery suddenly. Thanksgiving means a lot more to me than some pilgrim somewhere, it has meaning today that I have given it, that we have as a family have given it, and I don't care the origins of it (or halloween ot christmas) - it has a meaning to me as a person and to us as a family.

Screw politics, idealism, et al - to me I have a history I know and remember and I don't give a damn why it started, I care about where it is today and what it means to me.

[UdoKier]

33. Yes, they were.

Before westerners came and gave them plague-infested blankets, and weapons of all sorts, Indigenous populations were relatively stable for thousands of years, and we decimated them in a mere 400.

To compare skirmished between tribes to systematic genocide committed by a more technologically advanced culture is the height of hypocrisy.

What a pathetic copout. Personally, I don't think it's fair to expect every individual white person to accept blame for what happened so long ago, but to refuse to acknowledge that it happened is pretty galling.

[HuskerDem]

24. No flames here

I choose to gather with close family because it is a convenient time to gather and somewhere in the middle of it you realize that life is not nearly as long as you think it is. Our celebration is very simple, none of the guady commercialism, no paper pilgrim hats or comical turkies. For us the holiday holds no connection to any past beyond our shared experiences.

I do make a concerted effort to boycott any spending on or around Columbus day which I refer to as "Indigenous Genocide Day". I am frequently obnoxious about it too.

[Jack_DeLeon]

25. The Genocide of Turkeys...

mmm...

I cant wait.

[hangemhigh]

27. Well I'm militant about it...

and have a perved sense of humor too-I love it! LOL!

[The Straight Story]

28. Were the indians all that much better?

I can understand your thoughts, but Indians were just as brutal to each other as we were to them. Thanksgiving can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people. Make it your holiday if you wish.

Part of my problem with this view is that it is a culture thing which runs deep with people, not many sit around talking about pilgrims and indians. They have co-opted it to meet their needs but keep the traditions of it (ie turkey, football, etc). We can attack the base of the holiday, and all others, and what does it really accomplish??

Indians screwed over and killed indians, we did the same thing (to themselves and each other over history). If anything the day of thanksgiving is to celebrate the things we give thanks for and to recognize that at one moment in time maybe we were all able to get along. What occured after that day is another story, but for one day we can be thankful for the goodness people showed to each other. Maybe that will rub off over time.

I grew up in the 60's and 70's, to me it is no wonder so many voted against a party that wants to destroy their heritage and traditions by telling them that they are evil, wrong, and based on only genocide. People see beyond that, to many thanksgiving is about way more than one day in the past. It is about today, not yesterday. Those who want to live in the past are free to do so, but we are a different world today, more advanced, still a long way to go, but getting there. It is an American tradition which has deep roots into the minds and hearts, as well as the memories, of many people today.

This thanksgiving - well I talked to my mom about an hour ago. She is in the hospital and will be in surgery this weekend and will miss the big day here. We moved next door to her this year, had a big shindig planned with all of family and she is having major surgery suddenly. Thanksgiving means a lot more to me than some pilgrim somewhere, it has meaning today that I have given it, that we have as a family have given it, and I don't care the origins of it (or halloween ot christmas) - it has a meaning to me as a person and to us as a family.

Screw politics, idealism, et al - to me I have a history I know and remember and I don't give a damn why it started, I care about where it is today and what it means to me.

[knowbody0]

29. pfuckinu

[UdoKier]

35. This is a dupe post.

nt

[Fescue4u]

31. Its not Safe

To stand between me and my Thanksgiving Turkey

:)

[UdoKier]

32. Bullcrap. It's a celebration of a moment of peace and cooperation ...

... BEFORE the genocide began. The fact that the indigenous cultures were wiped out makes it all the more appropriate to commemorate the day, and use it as a chance to teach our kids about what happened thereafter.

There have been countless instances throughout history where the peace was thrown away by the more powerful party in the name of conquest and greed.

That doesn't make the first Thanksgiving any less worthy of commemoration - and it doesn't mean we have to perpetuate the myths about "savages" and "pioneers".

I still love Thanksgiving. If it's too loaded for native Americans to celebrate, then I'm sorry, but I will continue to love and celebrate it in my way.

In the words of the immortal Wednesday Addams to a bunch of snobby, waspy fellow campers (as an Indian, ad-libbing during a Thanksgiving play.):

Wednesday Addams: Wait, we can not break bread with you. You have taken the land which is rightfully ours. Years from now my people will be forced to live in mobile homes on reservations. Your people will wear cardigans, and drink highballs. We will sell our bracelets by the road sides, and you will play golf. My people will have pain and degradation. Your people will have stick shifts. The gods of my tribe have spoken. They said do not trust the pilgrims. And especially do not trust Sarah Miller. For all these reasons I have decided to scalp you and burn your village to the ground.

Addams Family Values, 1993


That was one of my favorite scenes in cinema. And I always remember it when celebrating Thanksgiving.

[Gregorian]

34. 15 years for me, now.

For the same reasoning, I haven't celebrated it for that long. Some find it offensive that I don't celebrate it. I have to laugh at their ignorance. Smallpox in the blankets. Now there's a holiday I would celebrate gladly. I want to celebrate the truth. Yes, there was a time when they got along. But then we killed them. And that is the overriding truth. I would celebrate the time they found it in their hearts to be together in peace. It's a beautiful picture. Maybe I should forget that there were bounties on the heads of indians. You could kill them for cash. I just can't celebrate what is worth celebrating, because we refuse to acknowledge the rest of the picture.

[UdoKier]

36. That's like saying you won't celebrate Xmas because Jesus was crucified.

It makes no sense. You celebrate the holiday the way you want to celebrate it - the aspects that you think are worth celebrating.

My family celebrates Xmas, but we are not Christians. It is a family tradition and a cultural touchstone, and that is something that transcends mere theology, or even the tacky commercialism that has come to define Christmas for so many. Besides, I still think Jesus was a great teacher worthy of admiration. WHy shouldn't I celebrate his (non-immaculate) birth?

[RevolutionaryActs]

37. I wont flame you

I think its pretty much true. It makes me so sad to really think about it, I'm reading 'Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee' I want to :cry: with every new page.

America is built on lies and blood :cry:

[CarbonDate]

38. this is why people hate liberals n/t

.

[HuskerDem]

44. But why do they hate you?

[bones_7672]

40. I'll think about that will eating

my turkey and ham with three generations of my family. Not. I'll be giving thanks, quietly, for all the good I've got and don't really deserve.

[nemo137]

41. No, thanksgiving is a day off to spend with family reflecting on the good

that has happened the year before. There's an unfortunate mythology that's grown up around it, but most of us outgrow that by 5th or 6th grade.

[slowroll]

42. I've got a buddy

who works at the Bureau of Indian Affairs. He finds it pretty funny that they get Columbus Day off.

[NuttyFluffers]

43. in a way, you are right.

a most unsuccessful flame on my part. i'll go out and try to buy more kerosene and try again later. :D

[Dem_Loyalist]

45. It's just a holiday

There's no more to it than there is religion in Christmas or Easter. I mean I'm a good Christian and I know it's just a holiday. It's just an excuse to take a day off of work to eat and drink too much.