I have got some "news" for all of the Evangelists out there.

[Tyler Durden]

Washington, Adams, Jefferson et al (ESPECIALLY Unitarian Universalist Jefferson) did not found this nation on any religeous principle, and in fact strongly advocated the separation of church and state.

THIS IS A SECULAR STATE.

That said, you do not have the god-given or anyone else granted right TO PROSELETYZE, EVANGELIZE, OR FURTHER "WITNESS" TO YOUR FAITH IN MY FACE.

I have been told to be civil to you. I WILL be "CIVIL" to you: note that the first FIVE definitions of civil in the American Heritage Dictionary refer to the rights and actions of CIVIL as in CITIZEN. #5 talks about polite. Given that, you have FOUR CHANCES to stop rubbing my face and the faces of my loved ones in your "JESUSSAIDITYOU'REGOINGTOHELLI'MJUSTTRYINGTOHELPYOU" bullshit.

Note: this isn't even 3 strikes and YER OUT! It's 4 balls, and take a walk.

I mean REALLY; WHO is REALLY being rude here?

[President Jesus]

1. but, but, but... "Judeo-Christian!" "Judeo-Christian!" "Judeo-Christian!"

[Not_Giving_Up]

2. Don'tcha Love It?

I had a co-worker who, during our lunch break, started asking me about my religious beliefs. I started by telling him that it was personal and none of his business. So, he pressed farther. When I let him know that I go on the scientific end, he started trying to convert me. It (of course) didn't work. This continued while I worked there, right up until the last day I was there, at which time he told me that he'd keep praying for my soul. Whatever makes ya happy, buddy! I don't understand...I don't throw my (non)religious beliefs at other people and try to convert them to believe as I do. Why don't they understand that I'd like the same respect?????

[ixion]

4. aye, there's the rub

all these religious repukes talking about how WE shove 'liberal' values at them, while they all the while are shoving their repug values down our throats.

Of course, the subtlties of hypocrisy and irony are lost on these people. All they know are 'talking points'.

[progressiveBadger]

6. I have a couple of mormon friends

And I'm always worried that if I die they will try to "baptise" me into the mormon church. Dead or not, I think that's just wrong and it makes me a little uneasy around them.
I just don't get the trying to convert people bit. I'll let you know if I'm not happy with my faith. But until then, keep your faith out of my business unless you want me on your case.

[RetroLounge]

12. I told a fundy at work that if he tried that

he would be drinking his communion wine thru broken teeth.

Never bugged me again, and then got laid off.

RL

[jdj]

55. just say likewise.

they are not patriotic,and they are not into america.

God is a higher calling, which country they live in has no bearing on their paradigm. So I say we ship them to Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan, because their "help" is needed so much more over there.

[sui generis]

3. unfortunately they think it's a war

and that non-evangelists are their mortal enemies, and they also think that anything goes in their war.

The very microsecond that you fight back, they will claim religious persecution, and it will only get uglier from there.

There is a reason this was supposed to be a country with a secular government.

[ixion]

5. yep, religion is a personal matter

and certainly no business of the State.

:grr:

[Zero Gravitas]

7. The US Constitution

never mentions God or Jesus or Chrisitianity. the only references to religion are "...no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States"
and the First Amendment.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

8. Sing the Good News, brother

.

[helpmeget2canada]

9. Yep.....I'm in the Bible Belt, too

Separation of church and state has been my biggest issue, and I see my lifelong nightmare coming true before my eyes.

I respect their right to believe what they want, just leave me the hell alone.

I have embraced two responses when fundies approach me:

1. I tell them I pray to Jesus, too: To save me from his evangelical followers!

2. When they tell me I'm going to hell, I tell them (with some profanity thrown in just to make it more enjoyable for me...*S*) that I'M ALREADY THERE!!!!!

[ellie]

15. My father used to say

there was no hell in the afterlife because hell was on earth. I agree with him.

[ilovenicepeople]

26. HOWDY helpmeget2canada

I've got a spare bedroom here on Vancouver island,Canada.Come on up:pals: When they tell me I'm going to hell,I like(love)to say back to them "If I'm going to hell when I'm there I will poke you with a sharp stick for eternity while I tell you over and over and over,I TOLD YOU SO,I TOLD YOU SO,I TOLD YOU SO...."

[helpmeget2canada]

29. Gee, thanks.......

I'm going to use your line, too!

Thanks for the offer.....I've heard Vancouver is absolutely gorgeous....*S*

[Tyler Durden]

10. To be brutally frank I prefer this one:

I allow my 16 year old son to post this on his wall. It's the picture of the smiling WWII GI with a tin canteen cup in hand, with caption:

"HOW ABOUT A NICE HOT CUP OF SHUT THE FUCK UP?"

I can't WAIT to set up my Shinto/Neo-Zen Shrine by the stream and bridge next to our new house in Canada. I'm going to meditate all the fucking time.

[helpmeget2canada]

11. LOL..........

Just wanna make sure you saw the site www.fuckthesouth.com

(no, nothing against southerners....just the rednecks, fundies, etc.)

Hell, maybe you wrote it? I surely could have written it....cracked me right the fuck up....lol

[immoderate]

13. I guess I'm lucky.

I see relatively few of these crusaders. And usually I say, "You'd be wasting your time."

And then when I say, "You will REALLY be wasting your time," they leave me alone.

So far I haven't had to use my "But I am Satan!" secret punch.

So I've been lucky.

Oh yeah! When I hear, Judeo-Christian, I say "How confused are you?"

The phrase "Judeo-Christian principles upon which this country is founded," evokes a "List them for me please." The only reponse I ever got was when I called a televangelist that I heard that on, demanded to know the principles, and after a pause, the person on the phone offered, "Jesus is the king of the Universe." I just laughed.

--IMM

[helpmeget2canada]

18. Omigosh, gotta use the "I am Satan" line.....thanks! n/t

[immoderate]

25. Glad to help.

--IMM

[abbadon]

53. yeah, I've never found "democratic representation" there ...

mostly, it's "king this" and "sin that," "divine prophet," and a lot of begetting

actually, it *does* sound like America, now that you mention it ...

[MemphisTiger]

14. Jeez, it sounds like you've had some bad experiences

I live in the Bible Belt and am a Christian, but not the "Let's conver the whole world" type. Try not to lump all Christians in with some of the fundies. If someone tries to "SAVE" you, just tell them to take a walk. If they don't get the picture just tell them again. It's not worth the stress. As the Dude would say, "Would you just take it easy, man":grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

[chiburb]

16. Bullshit. YOU have to turn the other cheek...

That's what you signed up for with your baptism. Others of us should politely say "no thank you". If they persist, the choice of "reactions" belong to us.

You want hugs? Go to the Lounge.

[MemphisTiger]

20. Well, if you go out an look for a fight you'll find one...

watch out, some of those Baptists are pretty big.

[chiburb]

21. WTF are you writing about?

Where did I post anything like I, or anyone, was looking for a fight? I commented on your "just keep walking" crap and that's what you respond with?

[MemphisTiger]

28. I was responding to your "Choice of responses" belongs to us

remark. IMO, just keep walking, don't give them the satisfaction by giving them the time of day. That's all I meant. Nothing more nothing less.:shrug:

[Tyler Durden]

22. WE aren't looking for THEM...

...THEY are looking for US.

I could give two shits whether they believe in Jesus, Jehovah, Isis, Marduk, or ZOROASTER.

I just want them to keep it to themselves. THAT IS NOT TOO MUCH TO ASK.

[chiburb]

27. Hey! Just chill man....

Can't we all just get along? C'mon, give me a hug...

:crazy:

[Tyler Durden]

17. Try Houston, Texas.

That's the far end of the Bell Curve, but it's a good place to get a perspective on how pervasive this is.

[MemphisTiger]

23. Trust me, being in Memphis is pretty bad sometimes

on the we're all happy and born-again. It's always funny to see the look on their face when you don't believe EXACLTY the way they do. I'm not a Baptist, but pretty much everybody around here is. If you disagree with them just the least little bit, they can't believe it. I think it is because it reminds them they may be wrong, but of course that can't be possible. (sarcasm)

[helpmeget2canada]

19. I hear you........

and I am careful to specify fundamentalists - of ANY religion. To me, religious fundamentalism (i.e. fanatics) is the downfall of any civilization.

I just happened to be physically surrounded by Christian evangelicals. Joy, joy.......

[sandnsea]

46. Then shut them up

You don't want to be lumped in with the loons, shut 'em up. I don't think people get it. Ten Commandments in courthouses? Creationism in schools? Forced prayer in schools? Control of the air waves? Medical care based on religious beliefs? The Constitution or the Bible. Choose. I choose the Constitution and anybody who doesn't is an enemy of my country.

[Cheswick2.0]

24. Tyler, you are wrong on many points of fact

First of all...Jefferson couldn't have been a Unitarian Universalist because no such thing existed at the time. At that point Unitarians were people of many different CHRISTIAN denomination who came together to worship. Besides Jefferson was a Presbyterian. Though he made comments negative to the idea of clerics and preachers having political power, he attended church regularly and took all that time and effort to rewrite the bible so that it contained only the words of Christ. He didn't do that because he was anti religion. He did it because he revered the words and teachings of Christ and thought they had been muffled with all the other commentary and bad translation.

Secondly, most of the founders of this nation were Christians. They were raised in Christian homes, went to Christian schools and married Christian women. It was a very Christian culture. Get over it.

So the founders of this nation were very influenced by Christianity as they were by great philosophers, Greek culture, classic literature etc.... and in their wisdom they created a secular nation because they remembered and learned from European history.

PS... there are no evangelists here, just people who are smarter than you on this particular topic.

PPS... yes I do have the right to "TO PROSELYTIZE, EVANGELIZE, OR FURTHER "WITNESS" TO MY FAITH IN YOUR FACE"........ it's called freedom of speech. And you are free to tell me to shut up and to turn me away from your door. But for you to suggest that there is anything like that going on here or that any of the people of faith her at DU would do that, suggests to me extreme ignorance about religious people in general.

[Padraig18]

31. Tell 'em, Cheswick!

:thumbsup:

[Tyler Durden]

35. another genius speaks.

Now this is getting boring.

[Padraig18]

38. Since I know you couldn't possibly be making a personal attack on me...

... let me thank you for your kind words.

:eyes:

[Tyler Durden]

40. Let me thank you for YOURS.

When you play cheerleader for a poster who is deriding another's intelligence, then expect to take their flak as well.

Frankly, I don't wan't to play. I was having a fair discussion here until you and "Ches" decided to show up and misconstrue.

[Padraig18]

43. She wasn't deriding your intelligence.

She was pointing out your factual errors, which is perfectly legitimnate, under DU rules. Are you saying that she and I are disruptors? Inquiring minds would like to know.

[Tyler Durden]

45. NO, I'm saying you missed my point completely.

I never voiced anything about evangelism on THIS BOARD. Besides I have an IGNORE button like everyone else if it gets too boring.

As to THIS little comment:

"PS... there are no evangelists here, just people who are smarter than you on this particular topic."

If that isn't dersision, I can define it for you if you like. And I have seen NO refutation from Cheswick, so your cheerleading was not really appropriate then, was it?

Cheswick jumped in on a wrong tack with both feet. You wish to join Ches, then you are liable for your AND his comments, that's all.

[immoderate]

33. This has been my experience too.

I have diced it up with many religionists here, but have never been evangelized at DU. It's always been pretty much on the level of philosphical discourse.

Here's some good quotes:

"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own."
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814


"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

Others at:
http://www.nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm

--IMM

[Tyler Durden]

36. If you, Padraig, and Cheswick could READ...

You would see that this discussion has NOTHING to do with evangelism on this site.

As to my 4 balls rule, though, you guys are at 3.

[immoderate]

48. Hey I'm on your side.

You should treat your friends better.

--IMM

[Tyler Durden]

51. Sorry. They pissed me off.

My rotten temper is not one of my best traits.

They should learn how to read a little better though. I never accused anyone here of evangelizing me. That's what IGNORE is for anyway.

[immoderate]

52. Acknowledged and appreciated

--IMM

[Tyler Durden]

39. If you, Padraig, and Cheswick could READ...

You would see that this discussion has NOTHING to do with evangelism on this site.

As to my 4 balls rule, though, you guys are at 3.

[Tyler Durden]

34. Don't screw with me Cheswick.

The name "UNITARIAN" was first used in the 16th century by Christian Humanists. The basis of the UNIVERSALIST portion was Protestant reformers in the late 18th century.

http://www.uua.org/aboutuu/uufaq/html

snip

Jefferson's earliest writings on religion exhibit a natural theology, a heavy reliance on reason, and the belief that morality comes not from special
revelation but from careful attention to the inward moral sense. In a letter to his nephew Peter Carr in 1787, Jefferson advised, "Fix reason firmly in her
seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a god."

He considered Jesus the teacher of a sublime and flawless ethic. Writing in 1803 to the Universalist physician Benjamin Rush, Jefferson wrote, "To the
corruptions of Christianity, I am indeed opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he
wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence, and believing he
never claimed any other."

Jefferson found the Unitarian understanding of Jesus compatible with his own. In 1822 he predicted that "there is not a young man now living in the US
who will not die an Unitarian." Jefferson requested that a Unitarian minister be dispatched to his area of Virginia. "Missionaries from Cambridge Harvard Divinity School] would soon be greeted with more welcome, than from the tritheistical school of Andover." Jefferson's christology is apparent in
these and similar letters, and also in one of his most famous writings, the "Jefferson Bible."

snip

http://www.uua.org/uuhs/duub/articles/thomasjefferson.html


As to CHRISTIANS....



St. Eustatius (Statia), a tiny island of the Dutch Antilles, was the overseas
arsenal and lifeline of the American Revolution. Under Dutch neutrality,
thousands of ships unloaded munitions, ordnance, and supplies at
Oranjestad (Orangetown)). The material was transhipped to the rebels.
Over a hundred Jewish families, mainly Sephardim, formed the core of the
island's commercial establishment. The successful outcome of the
American Revolution can be attributed largely to the assistance rendered it
by the Jews of St. Eustatius.


http://www.hebrewhistory.org/factpapers/37eustatius.html


AND unless you claim to be a published author:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/listmania/list-browse/-/3TOPHVWHUGGPX/102-3629763-0872918

While I won't exactly vote for ATHEIST, Jefferson, Franklin, Paine and many others of revolutionary prominence exhibit Agnostic tendancies.


"PS... there are no evangelists here, just people who are smarter than you on this particular topic."

Who ARE you anyway? Who died and made you GOD?


"PPS... yes I do have the right to "TO PROSELYTIZE, EVANGELIZE, OR FURTHER "WITNESS" TO MY FAITH IN YOUR FACE"........ it's called freedom of
speech. And you are free to tell me to shut up and to turn me away from your door. But for you to suggest that there is anything like that going on here or
that any of the people of faith her at DU would do that, suggests to me extreme ignorance about religious people in general. "


And as to that little gem of wisdom, I think its lack of any sort of real meaning is self evident.

Were I to take umbrage with your silly generalistic and deluded assesment, I might say something rude, but I'll pass.

[sandnsea]

47. NOT in the government

NO you do not have the right to turn the government into an arm of any religion. The purpose of having a separation of church and state was so that ALL religion could flourish. Then, people with the values they learned from religion would be brought to the government. NOT the religion, NOT the doctrine, the values. That's not happening anymore, guess you missed it.

[IrateCitizen]

30. No founding fathers were UU's...

UU wasn't even formed until the 1960's, at the merging of the Unitarian and Universalist churches.

I'm a practicing UU, and there's a pretty long article on Jefferson in this month's edition of our magazine. Many of our black congregations have been adamant about the idea that Jefferson should NOT be identified as a Unitarian, and I can't say I blame them. Jefferson himself, when he was alive, did not want to be identified as one.

[Tyler Durden]

44. I know that there are two schools of thought on this in UU.

One of the nicest things about it is the ability to hold differing opinions. I know this personally as well, and know many UU people who would differ as we are: respectfully and politely.

[Comadreja]

32. I tell them

I'm a "Born-again" agnostic. That will crash their hard drive long enough for you to get away. Some of us who are ex-Fundies who happen to get stuck with a proselytizer can bludgeon them mercilessly with the Bible..it is so full of contradictions and it condemns their leader, DimChimp.

[auburngrad82]

37. Here's what Washington, Jefferson, et al said regarding religion

The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.
--George Washington, Treaty of Tripoli, 1796

Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.
--Thomas Jefferson, February 10, 1814

The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe with blood for centuries.
--James Madison

I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature.
--Thomas Jefferson

And a few miscellaneous quotes from the Revolution that I like:

As Mankind becomes more liberal, they will be more apt to allow that all those who conduct themselves as worthy members of the community are equally entitled to the protections of civil government. I hope ever to see America among the foremost nations of justice and liberality.
--George Washington

All, too, will bear in mind this sacred principle, that though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will to be rightful must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal law must protect, and to violate would be oppression.
Thomas Jefferson

Government is a trust, and the officers of the government are trustees. And both the trust and the trustees are created for the benefit of the people.
--Henry Clay

Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
--Thomas Paine

I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church.
--Thomas Paine

[Tyler Durden]

41. LOVELY.

Thank you. GREAT quotes.

The destruction of the Secular nature of the nation has lead to the destruction of the nation as a whole.

[Lefergus70]

42. I wouldn't waste time on arguing seperation of church-state.

The Christian right should be forced to show us where in the New Testament there is a single sign that Jesus Christ would approve of the massacres in Iraq, the bloodshed and destruction, all for reasons that are now discredited. Do they really believe that Jesus the pacifist approves of this invasion and occupation of a land that was no threat to the U.S.? If they say yes, we have to let them know that we see them as lacking moral credibility and compassion.

[sandnsea]

49. Waste time????

Are you psychotic??? It's our friggin' COUNTRY we're talking about. Separation of church & state is critical for it to survive. Waste time????

:argh:

[Lefergus70]

54. Think again.

Of course, you fight to defend the separation of church and state, but I repeat that its a waste of time to discuss the issue with Evangelicals. I'm talking about hitting them where it hurts: their hypocricy.

[NAO]

50. US Secular State? Not for long, things are going according to plan

Conquering by Stealth and Deception- The Swift Advance of a Planned Coup
How the Dominionists Are Succeeding in Their Quest for National Control and World Power By Katherine Yurica
http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/TheSwiftAdvanceOfaPlannedCoup.htm

The Despoiling of America
How George W. Bush became the head of the new American Dominionist Church/State By Katherine Yurica
http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/TheDespoilingOfAmerica.htm

Links to More Articles Revealing the Rise of Dominionism in America
http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/DirectoryRiseOfDominionismInAmerica.html