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UdoKier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 01:15 PM
Original message
In 2004, is there any difference between a Televangelist hack...
Edited on Tue Nov-16-04 01:29 PM by UdoKier
... and the garden variety preacher at a local church?

I used to think there was a difference, but judging by the way most of the churches fell into line after Bush declared unnecessary war... I can't help but think that most of them are just out to take in money and function as one of the many control mechanisms on our society. Sure, a very few churches mobilized vocal opposition to the war. Shouldn't they all have done so? Wasn't it a huge sin to attack a defenseless country for no reason?

Do the churches today do anything but tell people what they WANT to hear? Do they tell their congregations to STOP buying the damn SUVs because we are the stewards of the earth, and we are not to waste God's gifts? Do they tell them that as a society, we need to look out for the least of us? If it's the religious folks turning out in droves to vote for Bush, WHAT exactly are mainstream churches teaching people these days?

Is there some alternate bible of hate, war and stealing these people use? I just don't get it.

Is it those "Abundant Greed" churches turning people like this? The Baptists? I'm seriously asking because I just DON'T GET IT.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
1. Most churches did NOT fall into line with bush on the war!
I'm not even a Christian, and even I am aware of the fact that all major Christian churches, with the exception of the Southern Baptists, issued strongly-worded statements CONDEMNING the invasion of Iraq.

Please get your facts straight.
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UdoKier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Once the war started, most became lemmings.
Edited on Tue Nov-16-04 01:43 PM by UdoKier
They said they opposed it BEFORE it began. Once it started, they almost all fell in line and "prayed for the president"

There were only a few who urged their congregations to get out there and do something, and continued their opposition once it started.

If a war is wrong before it starts, it's still wrong after it starts.
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Bertha Venation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. "They said they opposed it BEFORE it began." They WHO? "All the churches?"
WHICH churches?
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UdoKier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Bush's Church, the Methodists, for one.
But of course, he wouldn't listen to them.

Several church leaders tried to meet with him - he wouldn't have it.

I'm honestly glad they opposed the war before, but it's pretty meaningless if your opposition collapses once the shooting starts.
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Bertha Venation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. please reply to post no. 4
or at least read it. Thanks.
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ballcap1776 Donating Member (82 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Most Methodist churches
in my area at least...are STILL opposed. We're doing the right thing by supporting troops and sending them care packages, but tend to hear peace, love and open minds from the pulpit instead of hate-mongering.

That's why we left a "traditional Christian" church in favor of Methodism.
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UdoKier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. That's good to hear.
Most of the religious folks I know are catholic. They are pro-choice but also support the war...(sigh)
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ladjf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
3. Is there any difference between a Televangelist hack
and a crooked used car salesman?

Yes, a crooked used car salesman could be arrested and sentenced to prison for false representation while Televangelists can advertise all
manner of fantastic products, i.e. immortality and wealth, with no
fear of prosecution. What a scam!
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Bertha Venation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
4. "judging by the way all the churches fell into line" -- Did they?
To your "is there a difference" question: HELL yes. Take yourself to any moderate or liberal or even many conservative churches and listen to a sermon. I have never heard a pastor in any Baptist church I've ever attended preach a sermon including an endorsement of any politics, nor including any political platform or agenda, nor even encouraging what we see as hatred of any type of person.

As for "all the churches" falling into line -- that's a crock, and I can only hope it's a thoughtless generalization.

Many DUers are Christians and churchgoers, and I imagine they'll weigh in on this.

Learn the distinction between ultraconservative churches (mostly fundamentalist evangelical churches: Evangelical Free, Pentacostal, Assemblies of God, and the more conservative Baptist sects) and "all the churches."
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UdoKier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. Fair point - changed to "most of"
Although "almost all of" would have been a fairer description.

My experience growing up was a few visits to a methodist and baptist church.

The pastor would rattle off some scripture, NOT draw any parallels to how it applies to our present-day life, we'd sing a hymn, pass the plate, then mill on outta there.

I don't remember them EVER saying anything about how to live a more conscientious, compassionate life.

On occasion, when I turn on the televangelists, I hear them telling people what they want to hear - they tell the congregation that their greed is GOOD - that God wants them to have all the good things - again NO appeal to conscience.

Are the mainstream churches this way? That is my question. YOu take it as an attack but it's not. 51% voted for an EVIL man and an EVIL agenda on Nov. 2. Religion is being cited as a major reason why. I do NOT attend church, so is it not fair to ask WHAT this 51% of the people are being taught in these churches?
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IrateCitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 01:38 PM
Response to Original message
11. Mainstream churches aren't into "telling" people what to do...
That's the domain of the more conservative churches that are out there. Liberal interpretations of faith are more about raising questions than they are about providing answers.

Do the churches today do anything but tell people what they WANT to hear?

It varies from denomination to denomination, church to church. Some (like the RW "mega-churches") provide people with easy answers in an uncertain world. Others, like the Presbyterians, for instance, tend to push people in the direction of asking more questions in searching their faith. I'm a UU, and there is no other denomination out there that encourages "questioning" as much as we do.

Do they tell their congregations to STOP buying the damn SUVs because we are the stewards of the earth, and we are not to waste God's gifts?

Some do, but not enough. I know that in my congregation, many people are fairly affluent, and do not give enough attention to the wastefulness of their lives. However, it can be much more effective to lead them to ask questions about what effect their lives have on the world as opposed to just telling them to "STOP buying the damn SUVs".

Do they tell them that as a society, we need to look out for the least of us?

Most denominations -- even the RW ones -- actually do preach this. It just depends on whether they preach that being among the "least of us" is somehow the result of a sin that can only be cured by bringing that person into line with the Church's teachings, or if they preach that we as an entire society must be aware of the inequities around us and move to correct them.

If it's the religious folks turning out in droves to vote for Bush, WHAT exactly are mainstream churches teaching people these days?

I'd hardly say that "religious folks" turned out in droves to vote for Bush. I would agree that Evangelicals did. Likewise with ultra-orthodox Jews. But there were significant segments of the faith community that voted for Kerry.

The divide here goes back largely to the urban divide here in the US. People outside of urban centers have traditionally lived with the community churches being the centers of community life. Conversely, when you get into more metropolitan areas, the church is not quite so much a center -- even for people who attend services regularly. There's also the way in which many RW denominations use membership as an identity that people use to differentiate themselves from all those who are "excluded", almost in a tribal fashion. Finally, there's the mass resistance to, and fear of change among the vast majority of less urbane sections of the populace. Churches are really just the superficial layer of these phenomena, rather than the root cause.

Is there some alternate bible of hate, war and stealing these people use? I just don't get it.

The Bible can be used to justify just about any damned thing you want it to. The problem lies with those who selectively use scripture to support their beliefs, without looking at the passages they pick out in a larger context.

Personally, I find the most important part of the Bible to be the Beatitudes (blessed are the meek, blessed are the peacemakers, do unto others, et. al.). To me, everything else is pretty much window dressing.
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UdoKier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Thanks.
Your post calmed me down a bit.

I understand UU welcomes people of ANY faith to worship as they please with people of other faiths.

Amazing that it's not the predominant sect in the world. It should be.
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