Marine committed a "war crime"

[Postman]

for those of you "supporting" the actions of that one Marine who happened to have been caught on camera committing a war crime just ask yourselves this:

If the US were invaded and a raid on rebel insurgents taking up refuge inside a church in the middle of Atlanta, Georgia were rendered defenseless, would the same actions be acceptable against Americans?

I have a feeling you'd all be yelling to nuke the place.

[DrWeird]

1. They want to nuke the place anyway.

But yeah, they're a bunch of hypocrite bastards.

Fuck 'em. They're freepers. All of them.

[cali]

8. Yep. That's me. Freeper.

A freeper who devoted major time to fighting this war. A freeper who would never advocate using nukes. Ever. I ask people to not judge so quickly. That's it. This guy may, or may not have committed a war crime. We don't know yet. And no, the tape doesn't definitively show his guilt. War is hell. Bad things happen. That's why I blame bushco for what's happening.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Forkboy]

31. Can we call people gits now?

I love that insult,and if we can I'm using it on a regular basis from now on!

[cali]

36. LOL

beats me, but I love it too.

[Forkboy]

41. I guess not

it was deleted.

Damn it all to hell...I was looking forward to using that :)

[northernsoul]

2. the politicians who put him in that situation are the war criminals

I don't morally support what the soldier did, but when it comes time to cast blame I'm going after the SOBs who put him into that situation, not some kid who lost it.

[mike_c]

4. here are some other "kids who lost it...."

I presume you support them too?





BTW, that's Warsaw during the uprising, when "insurgents" were fighting the foreign occupation. Those German and Ukranian soldiers were all just kids doing a tough job under difficult circumstances. It's hard work grinding foreign populations under your boot heels.

[Ducks In A Row]

5. true. who gave the free fire zone order? that's who should be arrested

and in the end it's bush with blood on his hands because we never should have been there.

[VOX]

28. Yes. Take it to the top. That's who's to blame.

Whoever orders young men with weapons into these situations, that's who's to blame.

Placing armed kids into these intense, violent scenarios, what is the probability that something outrageous is going to happen? Extremely high, obviously.

The entire responsibility for all carnage and destruction belongs directly in the laps of the architects of this invasion -- *, Rummy, Wolfy, Cheney, the PNAC signatories, etc. :grr:

[hobbit709]

3. They're not insurgents

Resistance or freedom fighters. Don't give in to the Repuke definition of insurgents. And yes these clowns would be screaming to high heaven if it was applied to Americans. Of course, the neocons wouldn't know what a "war crime" was if it bit them on the ass.

[agarrett1]

6. Could you provide a link?

I'd seen this discussion earlier, and they provided a link to a video of an Australian news station, showing a wounded Iraqi in an alley being shot. From context, it appears he'd been fighting, gotten injured, and the Marines killed him. That is most definitely not a war crime (assuming he was a combatant, of course.)

However, I've also seen people talking about a killing inside a mosque. I have not seen this one.

Drew

[Dangerman]

9. Try this...

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/11/16/1610252

[agarrett1]

19. Two Notes, then

I have two points to make that are at least slightly mitigating.

First, the soldier has already been removed from the field, and is under military questioning. In other words, this was not an approved action. They do appear to be taking it seriously.

Second, according to the soldier's exclamation, the victim was faking his death. In a hot combat situation, that can be a threatening action. If he was hiding a weapon, he is dangerous. Again, if looking at this for war crimes, the only way we become obligated to protect a combatant is if he attempts to surrender.

Of course, as I recognize here, it is open to question whether or not this person was a combatant - which is, I believe, why the military is investigating.

I always hope our guys are using sound judgement, and I will continue to do so. I really do hope this soldier is not guilty of war crimes.

Drew Garrett

[mike_c]

21. "faking his death...."

Also known as unconsciousness. He was barely breathing, and had been disarmed by an earlier squad who left him as a "neutralized combatant," i.e. a non-combatant.

[agarrett1]

23. Thus the investigation

Look, the information we have right now is the tape. The soldier says "faking his death." Now, the victim may have been unconscious, and not "faking." Or he may not. That's why there's an investigation.

Unless you've got another source, of course. If so, care to share?

Drew Garrett

[mike_c]

24. here's the AP report if you haven't seen it....

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/2004/11/15/716108-ap.html

"A day earlier, a different Marine unit came under fire from the same mosque. Those Marines stormed the building, killing 10 men and wounding five, Sites said. The Marines said the fighters in the mosque Friday were armed with rocket-propelled grenades and AK-47 rifles. The Marines treated the wounded, he reported, left them behind and continued on Friday with their drive to retake Fallujah.

The same five wounded men were still in the mosque on Saturday, when a another Marine unit -- accompanied by Sites -- came to the mosque, Sites said."

<snip>

"The blacked out portion of the videotape, provided later to Associated Press Television News and other members of the network pool, showed the bullet striking the first man in the upper body, possibly the head. His blood splatters on the wall behind him and his body goes limp.

It is unclear from the footage whether the body was moving before the shot. The only movement that can be seen is the body flinching at the impact of the bullets. Sites' report said the slain man didn't appear to be armed or threatening in any way, and there were no arms visible in the room."

<snip>

"The Third Geneva Convention, the section of the 1949 treaty that applies to prisoners of war, says "persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat (out of combat) by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely."

It adds that "the wounded and sick shall be collected and cared for."

[agarrett1]

27. It does look bad for that soldier

The AP report includes some fairly good analysis, including the current rules of engagement, that make things look pretty bad for that soldier. I remain proud that we take these acts so seriously. However, from the same article you quoted, the soldier is not exactly without some argument himself...

<snip>

Charles Heyman, a senior defense analyst with Jane's Consultancy Group in Britain, defended the Marine's actions, saying the wounded man could have been concealing a firearm or grenade.

"In a combat infantry soldier's training, he is always taught that his enemy is at his most dangerous when he is severely wounded," Heyman said.

If the injured man makes even the slightest move, "in my estimation they would be justified in shooting him."

<snip>

That said, it looks for now like he killed a non-combatant, and will face a court martial.

Drew Garrett

[Postman]

11. we're talking about the unarmed mosque killing.

the story as reported by NBC was that a group of marines had swept through the area and killed the insurgents/occupants of the mosque.

Another group of marines came in after the others and that is when the shooting of the "still-breathing" Iraqi took place. Unarmed/wounded/prisoner-of-war = war crime

[Djinn]

12. actually shooting a wounded person

combatabnt or not when they present no risk to you IS a war crime.

A guy on the floor with half his blood on the outside of his body is no threat to an armed marine with back-up.

Moot point anyway - the entire occupation is a crime, we don't need to nitpick over the tiny minority that make it to our screens.

People have EVERY right to fight against a foreign occupation and an unelected government.

[skygazer]

7. My two cents

I think too many people are too quick to make judgments on this. It certainly sounds horrible (I have not seen the footage) and should most certainly be investigated - I am by no means condoning the action. But to immediately label someone a war criminal with no investigation or knowledge of the situation on the ground, beyond what has been aired on a video, is irresponsible.

[Postman]

13. The whole operation is a war crime my friend.

the Iraq War is unjust. Period. And anything done thereafter just adds to the crime already committed.

[Roachman]

17. Exactly right...

My position is that I probably would have done the same thing in his circumstances, but, knowing that, I would have refused to allow myself to get in those circumstances because I would have known that I couldn't have fought justly.

You shouldn't just refuse to follow unjust orders.

You should also refuse to follow orders that you know will force you to act unjustly.

This marine was in an unjust war fighting people that fought in a way that either required him to place his life in high risk and be just or to fight unjustly. He should have refused to enter such a circumstance if he knew he wouldn't have done the (incredibly) brave thing and continued to fight justly.

[skygazer]

26. I'm not denying that this incident was bad

Or that it shouldn't have happened or that the entire Iraq war is wrong.

But what exactly do you people expect of someone who is maybe 19 or 20 and in a fucking hellhole of a situation? Oh, sure, he should refuse to obey orders or not enter the military or act like Atticus Finch. He's a fucking kid, no doubt brought up to believe that his country represents the good guys, brought up to believe that serving in the military is an honorable profession, trusting in his government to use that military wisely.

Maybe you were politically and culturally astute as a kid but most are not. And most of the kids who now find themselves over there are just trying to come home alive. They're no doubt scared, in a place with no real front lines, over extended and fighting a war that makes no sense at all.

If this Marine committed a war crime, he should be investigated and punished, no doubt. But there are a whole lot of people on this board screaming about military people in general and calling them all murderers and war criminals.

You want to be angry? You want outrage? Have at it but direct it where it belongs, on the dumb fucks who got us into this shit and who don't care about the lives lost, American or Iraqi. And keep this in mind - we just lost an election and a big reason we did was because 35 years ago, people did the same thing - blamed the poor slobs who were fighting the war instead of the motherfuckers who sent them there.

There are Vietnam vets on this very board who still suffer the consequences of fighting a senseless war and being villified for it by those who protested against it and a lot of vets out there still feel resentment about those who protested. They feel betrayed because they were on the receiving end of a lot of blame and hatred.

I don't mean we have to blindly support everything every American soldier does but rather than tar them all with the same ugly brush, let's put the blame where it belongs - in the White House and not on the backs of a bunch of kids in uniform. They're going to have a hard enough time if they are ever fortunate enough to return home.

Go ahead, flame away.

[exJW]

14. When you see it, it's obvious

There simply is no excuse. None.

[DrWeird]

15. It's murder captured on film.

Somebody walked up to a man laying prostrate on the ground, and shot him in the head.

You can't get any clearer that that. The only thing not obvious on the tape as shown is what the other marines did after the fact.

[kcwayne]

16. Remember the pilot downed in Gulf War I ?

He was beaten and shown on Iraqi TV, and the country went nuts screaming about the Geneva convention. There were lots of threats about nuking Iraq if they hurt the prisoners.

When soldiers do what this one did, the legalities don't matter. The world recoils against us, and will believe the worst, especially as we give them more and more reason to.

We have no moral authority to even whisper "Geneva conventions" given what we are doing.

[laylah]

22. Exactly!

We do it and we're fighting the war on "terra"...they do it, and they are "terra-ists" and must be destroyed. Gawd, I hang my head in shame of my country! (and NO, lurking unAmerican, unPatriotic, treasonous, sons a bitches FREEPS...I have NO intention of leaving so you can take over! :puke: ). I will fight until my dying death to help this country, OUR country, get back on Her feet. I am so ashamed.

Jenn

[npincus]

18. the soldier had been shot in the face the day before

and thrown back, freshly traumatized, wounded, into the Iraq shooting gallery. Well, who knew the envirnmentally-hostile B*sh Administration were advocates of re-cycling?

I would say this matter is easy to judge from one's comfy perch far away from the Hell B*sh has created over there.

[ShaneGR]

20. Not sure yet....

I've read reports that the marine in question was shot "grazed" in the face the day before and one of the marines in his unit was killed that same day checking on the body of a booby-trapped "insurgent."

[Mikimouse]

25. Wonder if the GOP sent him one of their bandaids...

I still can't and don't find any justification for it, but OTOH, I fell pretty certain that he will be exonerated by any military court set up by the US command. So, all of this arguing back and forth is actually pretty moot, considering how effectively the military courts have derailed any effort to bring real justice to any US servicemen. I am not anti-military, but to believe for even one split second that ours are any better than any others is to believe a fairy tale.

[Cuban_Liberal]

30. I'd prefer to wait until ALL of the facts are known.

It's a silly concept, I know, that whole 'innocent until proven guilty beyond a resonable doubt and to a moral certainty', but that's me---old fashioned.

[Walt Starr]

32. I've held back on commenting on this

You do not have proof he committed a war crime. Only a military tribunal can make that determination.

Given what I know right now about this case, including viewing the video, were I sitting on a Court Martial board as an officer, I would vote to acquit this Marine.

Given evidence of ONE example of wounded insurgents in Fallujah pulling a suicide job and killing soldiers gives this man the justification to fear for his life and the lives of his fellow Marines. All it takes is just ONE case of that entered into evidence to justify his actions in a combat zone.

I cannot say for certain how I would have reacted in his situation, but he MUST be given the benefit of the doubt, especially in an urban combat zone.

That's all I have to say on the subject.

[Cuban_Liberal]

33. Amen, Walt!

As a combat veteran, it's refreshing to see someone NOT rushing to judgment until all the facts are known.

[Walt Starr]

34. WOW, was I ever wrong on this one!

I thought for certain I'd get flamed to high heaven over my statements!

Thanks!

[Cuban_Liberal]

35. No, thank YOU!

You probably will get flamed, but not by me!

:hi:

[superconnected]

37. More justification for the enemy to kill captured americans

The reason it LOOKS bad is because killing an unarmed man lying on the ground IS BAD. It's cold blooded murder. I don't care if he's playing dead. World opinon won't either.

Wether it's a war crime or not, it's still murder.

It is another disaster scandal for the man who promised to
"bring integrity to the white house" - GW BUSH

Rip another hole in the flag, we fell further. Notice it's combat vetrans mostly supporting this. Most normal people view this only as MURDER.

[Cuban_Liberal]

38. You don't know that it's murder.

Unless you're the CID agent in charge of the investigation, and possess ALL of the relevant facts surrounding the case, you CAN'T 'know' whether he committed a crime, or not.

[superconnected]

39. I'll trust my ability to spot murder when I see it

Wether or not it's a crime depends on who's making the laws.

Of course, it depends on what your morals are, but for me, it's morally an aberation, and should be a corporeal offense.

[Cuban_Liberal]

40. I'll wait for the facts.

It was a homicide, but whether it was a murder or a war crime remains to be seen.

[Walt Starr]

43. War without homicide is called "Diplomacy"

Can't have a war without a lot of homicide.

Murder in a combat zone is something else entirely, and I didn't see it here.

:thumbsup:

As my boss would say, Semper Fi.

[JVS]

42. Hmmmm, Atlanta, ehhh?

That's a toughie. ;-)