Is Western Europe About to Erupt in Anti-Muslim Violence?

[Silverhair]

For those that want more info:
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,1564,1397707,00.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1350213,00.html

Here is the short story. Theo Van Gogh, great nephew of the noted artist, made a film critical of Muslim treatment of women. Two weeks ago he was brutally murdered and a five page note calling on Muslims everywhere to rise up against the immoral West. The note was pinned with a knife to his chest. In the police actions that followed a grenade was thrown at police as they were attempting to arrest some Muslim suspects. In the past two weeks over 20 mosques have been burned and some churches have been burned in retaliation. To put that in perspective, during the worst of the American Civil Rights movements, there was never a period when 20 black churches were attacked in a two week period in the entire south. Further, Holland is a tiny country. You can fit several Hollands into Alabama.

Sorry for having to use the Weekly Standard, but there are some facts there that are important.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/004/918ojqzh.asp

"The letter, published early this week, did indeed contain death threats against two members of parliament: Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a Somalian-born immigrant who has repudiated Islam and blames it for violence against women; and Geert Wilders, a longtime liberal politician who has turned to anti-Muslim demagoguery and heads an embryonic populist movement. Both are now in hiding.

Both rose to prominence in the wake of the killing in 2002 of Pim Fortuyn, the charismatic gay politician who won a massive overnight following by warning that high Muslim immigration was overburdening the country's institutions and threatening its ethos of easy come, easy go. ***It took him only weeks to turn his new party into the country's second largest,*** but he was soon shot dead by a deranged environmentalist. It was the first political killing in Holland since the sixteenth century." The *** *** is my way of highlighting a passage. I don't see anyway to use italics.

So it looks like Western Europe may be a powder keg waiting to blow.

I am sure that some other DUers can shed more light on this.

[knowbody0]

1. me thinks so

[Maple]

2. It's not enough

to just 'let in immigrants' and pat yourself on the back.

You have to help them integrate, and provide an open educated society that welcomes the diversity...and doesn't just 'tolerate' it.

If you don't, then any given 'incident' will send the whole society up in flames...and there are bound to be 'incidents'

Like VanGogh calling all Muslims 'goatfuckers' on national television, and then writing words from the Koran on a nude woman and filming it.

[Ima]

3. It won't be long.

"So it looks like Western Europe may be a powder keg waiting to blow."

[Senator Lamb]

4. i dont know

i think this massive muslim immigration into europe can pose security threats in the future considering the white European birth rate cannot sustain itself, with the population growing older and older; low birth rates. im not racist or anything but this bound to create a clash of civilizations.

[xchrom]

5. van gough is hardly representative of holland

immigrants in holland have welcomed very wormly -- and this is at least as much about a kind of fundamentalism that has taken root there as any thing else.
too many people move to europe -- or the u.s. for that matter -- expecting to find the streets paved with gold.
and life is hard and full of disapointments.
people turn to mind altering religion for comfort and become radicalized -- sounds like timothy mcveigh, no?
parents of some of the youth involved in radical islamic movements in europe are concerned and don't understand what has happened to their kids.

this is not as much about holland as it is people and getting sucked in by a circus barker and sold a bunch of goods.

[Maple]

8. Holland has never welcomed or integrated them

Holland 'tolerates' them. Not the same thing.

They are 2 separate societies. This simply won't work.

[xchrom]

12. that is simply not true

holland has a very good record of accepting people from all over the world.

[Silverhair]

6. Isn't that Van Gogh's freedom?

Yes, Immigrants need to be offered help in assimilating. But the immigrants also need to respect the culture they are coming to. One of the aspects of Western Culture is our freedom to express controversial views. Look at the uproar in the USA over Mapplethorpe's art, yet his freedom was respected.

The Muslims are also upset over the liberal Dutch lifestyle that includes gay marriage, legal prostitution, and legal drugs. They see those as abominations that need to be stopped.

The Muslims have some responsibilities in this too.

However, the question I asked was NOT what should be, but what do you think WILL be?

[DrWeird]

7. Your comparing VanGogh to Mapplethorpe?

Wouldn't Rev. Phelps be a bit more valid comparison?

[Silverhair]

10. Maybe. He was the first one that came ot mind...

of art that got a lot of people angry. Truth is that I don't even know who Rev. Phelps is. I don't follow art stories much. Just not interested. I am very old fashioned in my art tastes. I like pretty pictures that look like something I can regonize. I love landscapes with bluebonnets and cowboys on horses and that type of stuff. I make no apologies to anybody for my taste in art, nor do I demand that anybody conform to my tastes.

[DrWeird]

15. Phelps.

Yes. He has a right to say what he wants. Yes, it'd still be wrong if somebody shot him. Yes, I could convict and sentence harshly if a person did and I were on the jury. No, I wouldn't shed any tears.

[Silverhair]

16. Agreed. NT

[Maple]

9. Van Gogh was a loudmouthed racist

and the end result didn't surprise anyone.

[Silverhair]

11. So those Muslims were in their rights to murder him?

I readily acknowledge that the radical are a minority of a minority. I do not blame all Muslims.

But my original questions still stands.

Edit: Major typo

[xchrom]

13. no, this poster posits that holland is racist

and van gough was visible above the water line.
van gough behaved badly and spoke for a minority of one.

the issues of assimilation and and modern alienation are the issues here.

[Silverhair]

14. Perhaps. And my questions is: How voltile is the situation?

[natrat]

20. am i mistaken or are alot ofmuslims

totally disrespectful of other people that dont see the world through their eyes?

[DrWeird]

21. You're mistaken.

And an islamophobe.

[natrat]

23. maybe i am

intolerance just scares me and i think it is weak and wrong

[DrWeird]

24. Agreed.

So why be intolerant?

[natrat]

25. i am intolerant to the extent that

i disaprove of people who cant live and let live; i would not condone murder

[DrWeird]

26. Like muslims.

At least according to your OP before you edited it.

[UpsideDownFlag]

27. i am intolerant of anyone who wants to force their views on myself.

whether they be muslim, christian, pagan, whatever. I was under the impression that this Dutch Man was just protesting the mysoginistic nature of much of Islamic law, which is pretty hard to deny.

[muriel_volestrangler]

29. How many Muslims have been forcing their views on people?

There's the murderer; and ...? After the murder, it was a series of tit-for-tat arson attacks.

[UpsideDownFlag]

30. if i lived under Sharia law, you can be damn sure they'd be forcing

their views on me- here's a few specific instances:

Premarital sex: aw, shit- i think they'd stone me

gay experimentation: that there is an abomination.

pornography? hell no.

Women's rights? not a very good record there either.

and pointing this out does NOT make me an islamophobe, either. I understand that it doesn't represent all of islam, but obviously there is a substantial amount of people living under sharia law, having it forced on them daily.

the same thing goes for a (hypothetical) christian theocracy, i should add

[muriel_volestrangler]

31. Then aren't you hijacking this thread a bit?

Since it's about Western Europe, where no-one imagines Sharia law will ever be implemented.

[UpsideDownFlag]

32. ...

yes, i suppose so. i assumed there was a connection, since he was killed by radical muslims of the Sharia variety.

[Hey Zeus]

17. it will definitely happen

when they release that gibson flick on christ.

[JVS]

18. Why?

[mrbill]

19. wasn't mel's film released in europe about a year ago?

n/t

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[UpsideDownFlag]

28. personal attacks aren't necessary.

'he's a little slow'?

[Hey Zeus]

33. sorry just sarcasm

nt