On the issue of choice

[BayCityProgressive]

Fellow DUers,

I hope I am not flamed here. I am a very liberal/progressive person but I am wondering what we cando to win some people over to our stance on this issue. I think it is a mistake to talk about it in a cold completely medical way because the majority of Americans do not see it in that light. I think the Clinton's were smart to say abortion should be "safe, legal, and rare". Why don't we talk about abortion in a way that many spiritual people who were once Democrats and liberals feel about it. The United Methodist Church, The Epsicopal Church, Reform Judaism all take stances on abortion which basically say, we don't believe it should be used as birth control (which almost eveyrone I know says) but it should be used in circumstances of health, rape, a woman or babies life ect. We should stress helping get contraception out to everyone. I also saw a statistic, not sur eif its true, that 40-60% of unwanted pregnancy came from people on medicaid. We need, I believe, A huge campaign to inform the poor and teens about pregnancy, rape, and STD's. These churches would also support a strong safety net for young mothers and children. Although the Catholic Church is reactionary on the issue, Many rank and file would agree with this if it were our position. Focusing on closing the wage gap for women would help them to support children as well. I think we can keep our liberal Democratic values if we speak in a way that most Americans can understand, but what good is it to speak in a way they dont understand and lose the issue ENTIRELY? Once again, I do not oppose a woman's right to choose, a family member close to me was raped as a very young teenager and chose an abortion and I think that is her undeniable right as a woman. I just think we need to look at some re-alignment here.

[Lindacooks]

1. It's a privacy issue.

We could call it 'pro privacy'. That's what turned me around - I used to be a Repuke back in my young and stupid days. Then when I started thinking about it, naturally I converted to the Democratic party.

Ellen Goodman has written some very good articles about this, collected into several books. She says the issue is body integrity - the right of any person to control what happens with his or her body. If that right is abrogated for any reason, we are in a totalitarian state.

It's the privacy.

[Cuban_Liberal]

2. If we would quit demonizing religious people, and shouting at them...

They'd probably be much more likely to listen to us. I'm Catholic, and I know many Catholics who would be pro-choice if abortion were not being used as birth control so much.

[Dookus]

5. Ugh...

Can you share with us how often abortion is used "as birth control"?

Sorry, Tony, but that's a right-wing talking point. Furthermore, even if it *IS* used "as birth control", what steps do you propose to solve THAT aspect of it? How do you measure people's motives?

[Cuban_Liberal]

12. Hold up, Dookus.

It's not JUST 'a RW talking point', it's a fact. I would propose to solve it through education and a fully-funded support network. I happen to be personally pro-life (politically pro-choice), not 'pro-birth', and there IS a difference.

:hi:

[Dookus]

14. ok...

I maintain that talking about abortion "being used as birth control" is utterly meaningless, and is spoken only by anti-choice people.

There is absolutely no possible way to determine someone's motive for getting an abortion. Further, it doesn't matter - the government has NO BUSINESS determining what motives are worthy and which ones aren't.

[Cuban_Liberal]

19. Actually, Dookus...

Government determines 'motiveation' all the time. Murder, or manslughter? An accident, or reckless homicide, etc. ? Furthermore, people can and do disagree on whether a foetus is a 'person', or just an amorphous blob of tissue. Doesn't make them wrong, or you right.

:shrug:

[Dookus]

22. Actually

government doesn't determine that - juries and judges do.

Abortion is legal. Do you propose the government get involved in each and every abortion to determine whether the motive is "worthy"?

[Cuban_Liberal]

23. Of course not.

I'm just trying to illustrate that the issue is not as cut-and-dried as many would like to believe.

[WildClarySage]

26. Having the gov't decide which

motivations are worthy of abortion is the same as giving them control over our bodily integrity. I don't care if she's had one abortion or 25- she has the right to determine what is in her body's best interest.

[Lex]

8. I think it's just just plainly a myth that it is used as "birth control"

as if scores of women routinely get them over and over instead of using the pill or other forms of birth control.

Although that may happen rarely, it is the exception and not the rule.

It's like saying we should get rid of welfare because once in a while there is a "welfare queen" somewhere ripping off the system.


It's a red herring and is used to undermine the whole issue, imho.

[Carolinian]

25. Didn't I read that the number of abortions per year exceeds live births?

Of course, medically speaking, miscarriages are spontaneous "abortions".

[Dookus]

3. I don't agree that we NEED

to win people over on this issue. The majority of americans support Roe v. Wade. The minority is just louder.

Edit: I also reject ANY attempt to try to legislative "good" reasons for abortion and "bad" reasons for abortion. It's simply none of the government's business.

[superconnected]

4. I gathered from my time on a feminist site

That women who were pro-abortion were equally divided between Dem and Rep, as were women that were anti-abortion.

It's never worked out that way when a man is speaking politically, or when one of the (we were calling them ifems) stood up and supported her man against it, again politically. But in reality, I'm pretty sure the divide is still there, and has nothing to do with political party.

And yes it was the MS boards, and yeah I know that was one F@#$-up hostile unreasonable feminist site. ;)

[BayCityProgressive]

15. There needs to be a HUGE

campaign to quell domestic violence as well. I cannot say how many girls I personally know who were abused or molested as children and ended up pregnant at 14 or 15. It is truly a tragedy and somethign politicians do not stand up to stop becaus eit doesn't win them any votes. I believe Howard Dean had some success at reducing domestic violence. I am a gay man but I am far form a single issue voter. in fact, gay rights aren't even in my top 3 issues. I think women/children's rights and the environment are our most important issues today. It is truly disgusting to me the wages women are paid, the stereotyping in society, the abuse against women and children that goes unopposed ect. How can gays who are only about 2% of the population have any rights when women who make up a majority are still faced with discrimination?

[WindRavenX]

16. pro-abortion is a false name

No one is "pro" abortion.
Everyone wishes that abortion didn't have to happen- but this is reality. Abortion should be safe, legal, and RARE.

[MichiganVote]

6. The day that women have the same option to regulate the male penis

is the same day I will acquiece to the notion that women's reproduction should be regulated by men.

[DURHAM D]

18. Amen. Amen. Amen.

Young men get so upset with me when I tell them I won't discuss their views on choice or lack of choice. I am simply not interested in their point of view. Butt out - you don't get pregnant.

[hollowdweller]

20. To the people who believe that a fetus is a person

you will never convince them of pro choice.

However to the people who don't like abortion but really aren't super strong on totally repealing it there are options.

I read that between 97 and 2002 that the number of abortions went down? I heard it on the radio. Maybe somebody has a link to the stats, but could it be that the earned income tax credit, increases in the minimum wage, and expanded health care for pregnant women that Clinton presided over made more women feel like they could afford to keep their kids? I think that a greater subsidy for childcare would help.

The Democrats could make the argument that we could do these common sense things that will make it easier for a woman to have her kid and support it that would reduce the number of abortions without messing with the Constitution.

[Francesca]

32. I agree, focusing on these types of arguments

for those that are on the fence is productive.

[MichiganVote]

36. Why don't we put the same energy into introducing a gizmo

that retards the male erection of men without a valid marriage license?

[WildClarySage]

7. Being a woman

I have no intention of yielding my body to the government, nor using my right to choose as a bartering item to entice voters to the democratic party. The fact is, most people who are pro-life aren't pro-life at all, they are anti-other-people-having-sex-and-getting-away-with-it. They want to be the morality police and all the arguments to the contrary are smokescreens. There are many who believe in the sanctity of fetal life, but most of them are blinded by the rhetorical claptrap of the movement whose chief aim is not the protection of the fetus but to establish a moral claim over women's rights to safe legal reproductive choices.

[BeatleBoot]

9. Did you know that this issue was flipped amongst parties

back in the 60's and prior?

Dems were anti-abortion and repukes were pro-choice.

For those old enough to remember....



on edit: spelling

[zacho]

10. Agree with you

The problem is that the Republicans have the morally correct answer to this by being pro-life. I think the practice of abortion is ethically abhorable, but I don't think things through ethically. I see abortion as an issue of poverty, and the anti-abortion activists are too idealist to see that banning abortion will hurt not help. We need to make 'idealist' the new key words in arguing against the anti-abortion activists.

[Francesca]

11. You bring up a number of valid points IMO

One great point you make is about the way we present the issue and I think we can do a better job of it without having to compromise our rights.

[Dookus]

17. Since the majority of Americans

consistently support the right to safe, legal abortion, what do we need to re-present? We're on the right side of this issue, which also happens to be the majority position.

[Francesca]

24. I personally am surrounded by those that are

very offended by abortion and while statistically they may be in the minority this is not my real life experience. I am the only dem in my family and know for a fact this is the one issue that kept a number of them from voting for Kerry.. Please don't flame me I am talking about them NOT me.. The reality is I would love to be able to discuss this with them.. Just screaming its my body fuck off does not cut it... I am tired of the fact that dems are unwilling to even discuss the discussion.

[Dookus]

27. well I don't know what to tell you...

What do your relatives propose? Imprisoning pregnant women until they give birth?

[Francesca]

30. well they are all over the place

some of them think abortion period is out of the question, some of them think abortion is fine through the first trimester, some think if there is a health risk or rape OK..

[Dookus]

33. yes

everybody has an opinion about what circumstances should be allowed. But ask them to go a step beyond that. Let's say they outlaw abortion.

Do they support imprisoning women who express an interest in abortion until they give birth? Does the women then get to keep the baby, or is it taken away automatically?

Will they imprison doctors who perform the procedure?

Seriously - ask them HOW they plan to enforce a ban on abortion.

[Francesca]

38. thats a good question for some of them

for persons like my mother (she lived in Sicily till she was 19 and was raised by her Grandmother) their is nothing unreasonable with imprisoning a woman to stop her from aborting... So this kind of question is pointless...

[Warpy]

13. It's also an issue of self defense

Pregnancy and childbirth are risky. If you've ever read an obstetrical text, you've been left wondering how so many of us got here.

Assuming the risk has to be voluntary. Yes, we should reduce this choice as much as possible by things like a living wage, adequate and easily available contraception, and plenty of sex education. However, even with all these things in place, human fallibility will always intrude, and some women will always feel a need to defend themselves against threats to health and life plus a permanent disrruption of their lives by chosing abortion.

Prochoice means we will keep this choice safe and legal, so that the woman in question will life through it.

Those of us who were adults prior to 1974 remember what it was like: the fear, the whispers about friends who had gotten traumatic abortions, and (in my case) finding out a friend had died from a botched amateur abortion. Reproductive rights are simply not negotiable for us, and we will resist any man or government that tries to intefere by restricting us back to illegal butchery.

[Lex]

21. If the anti-abortion people were TRULY against abortions

.
wouldn't they also be IN FAVOR OF

1. Comprehensive sex education in schools so that teenagers would be informed (this is proven to lower unwanted pregnancies)

and

2. Birth control methods such as the pill and condoms being readily available for teenagers and young adults (also proven to lower unwanted pregnancies).


But that's where you'll get the anti-abortion people to start stammering because they ARE NOT REALLY in favor of stopping unwanted pregnancies, they are into forcing women to have babies no matter what.

[WildClarySage]

28. They are in favor

of deciding who gets to have sex.

[Dookus]

29. That is exactly right

they believe no sex act should go unpunished.

[sweetladybug]

35. Hey I have an idea. If they want to make abortion illegal. I think

every man that does not pay child support for their children or does not help raise the child should be FIXED so that they can not make a baby. Let's take their choice away from them and see shit hit the fan.

[CatBoreal]

31. Three things that should happen....

1) Start pushing the notion of 'Every child CONCEIVED is a wanted child' as opposed to born, then fight to get sex education into schools, public health, on TV, radio, print, everywhere where people can be educated. Cover all the bases: the biology, chemical contraception, natural contraception and yes, abstinance.

2) Create a pro-mother/pro child environment by pushing for social reforms like affordable daycare, open adoptions, maternity leave, subsidized housing, job-sharing, socialized health care, child care courses, parent/child centres etc.. that make taking care of kids easier.

3) Hit back at the pro-life groups (read prudes) by pointing out policies that push mother's towards making the choice to have an abortion, like not being able to afford health insurance, take time off work, provide outside care for their children, etc.... Show them to be the ones who are anti-family in their policies.

Unfortunately, I think too many of these pro-lifers are so hung up on the fact that women are having sex (and enjoying it) that they will never see reason.

Cam

[Dookus]

34. I keep bringing this up and nobody responds

WHY do we need to "reframe" our position? The MAJORITY of Americans AGREE with us! And, incidentally, so does the constitution.

[CatBoreal]

39. I don't think....

that you you're reframing your position, but publicizing the means to keep abortion safe, legal and rare.

Cam

[Dookus]

40. I think the government, and our party

should be concerned with keeping it safe and legal. I personally don't give a whoop if it's rare.

[JerseygirlCT]

37. There's never going to be consensus, but

I think there are things that both sides could agree on.

Others have mentioned them: better sex education and access to better birth control, better education and opportunities, assistance for those who DO have children -- child care, job training, etc., health care -- so that women have the opportunity to learn to take care of themselves... it goes on and on -- my leaving something out is not intentional.

If those who call themselves "pro-life" are truly that, they'll make common ground on helping to prevent abortions where that is possible -- without compromising a woman's privacy or right to make her own medical decisions. They need to be pushed to look at this issue in a larger way -- life doesn't end at birth.

So long as both sides continue the "it's my body" "you're killing a baby" standoff, nothing good will happen. (And I admit to being on the "it's my body" side of that divide, btw.) If both sides can focus on the steps we can agree on, maybe some good can happen.

[slackmaster]

41. The few pro-lifers I know draw the line at paying for abortions

I don't personally know anyone who favors outright outlawing women making their own decision to have an abortion; I can't imagine having much in common with someone with such an authoritarian mind-set. But I do know a few who are dead-set against having their money (i.e. public funds) spent to fund abortions.

The only compromise I'd be willing to consider from my strong pro-choice stance would be to limit the circumstances under which tax revenues could be used to pay for abortions that are elective (done for the convenience of the woman rather than medical necessity). I feel the same way about other medical procedures - I wouldn't want public funds going for face-lifts or penis enlargements either.