If you don't like Abortion - don't have one!

[devilgrrl]

It's been said before but I'm going to say it again. :mad:

[Hobarticus]

1. Gaaah...my self-righteous Christian head will explode with such logic...

Please stop!

[floridadem30]

2. I agree, maybe we should protest Frist outside the senate

[murielm99]

3. My husband says that all the time.

He says it to anti-abortion men.

Maybe it is an oldie, but it seems to stop them in their tracks when he says it.

I married the right guy.

[TahitiNut]

18. If men could get pregnant ...

... abortion would be a sacrament. (That's an oldie-but-goodie from the 60's, when we were fighting to get Roe v. Wade and the well-to-do sent their women to New York or Switzerland.)

[Swamp Rat]

22. yep

[NightTrain]

4. Or...have a vasectomy!

Duh!

[Kool Kitty]

5. Hear, hear!!!!!!!

I second that.

[iconoclastic cat]

6. I even support a woman's right to retroactive abortion.

[Is It Fascism Yet]

13. Good one, let's talk Barbara Bush into having a retro!

[Paul Hood]

7. There will always be abortions.

It's just a question of whether they will be safe.

[K-W]

59. And whether women and doctors go to prison for having them.

Then again, considering our imprisonment rate, we will probably all be in prison before long anyway.

[The Zanti Regent]

8. Why do pro lifers see nothing wrong with starving children?

Why do they see nothing wrong with pedophlic priests?
Why do they see nothing wrong when poor children can't get to a doctor when they're sick?
Why do they see nothing wrong when kids are dumped in failing schools and set to fail?
Why do they ignore children that go hungry?
Why do they ignore children who are homeless?
Why do they ignore children who are abandoned?
Why do they ignore children who run away from abusive situations?
Why do they ignore children whose parents can't afford them?

and

WHY DO THEY DO ALL THESE THINGS IN THE NAME OF JESUS?

PLEASE SOMEBODY TELL ME!

[floridadem30]

9. or sending our loved ones to war to die or allowwing guns

[DenaliDemocrat]

46. You are equating

owning a gun with having an abortion? That's just plain silly. Not even comparable.

[laheina]

12. The pedophile priests are a separate thing completely.

[AndyTiedye]

23. Because It is Really a CONTROL Thing

[chicagojoe]

39. Because they are blind and stupid and hypocritical and regressive

and selfish and spineless and stupid and stupid and stupid and stupid and stupid. Oh, and did I say stupid?

[fnottr]

10. Damn straight

And when the Fundies come back with the 'baby killer' accusals, you can come back with something like this, in the words of George Carlin:

"Conservatives are obsessed with the fetus from conception to nine months. After that they don't give a shit about you until you reach military age. Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers."

[Is It Fascism Yet]

11. Yeah, but that is so beautifully succinct & true, glad you said it again!

My humble opionion is that men, who are frequently vociferous about the abortion issue, have absolutely no right to an opinion at all on this subject, since they will never be pregnant. Men will just have to leave childbearing to women, as always. We have been taking care of birthing since the beginning of time, and we know how to do it. Women are not brood mares and do not breed on command. And like you said, if you are a woman, you have a right to an opinion, so long as you apply your opinion to yourself, and none other.

[laheina]

14. men have a small right to an opinion,

but what they don't have a right to do, is to legislate it upon my body.

[Is It Fascism Yet]

16. no they don't have a right because their right to control their own bodies

men's rights to control their own bodies is sacrosanct, and so is ours. They would freek out if we told them they had to donate their body to a task they disapporved of. What would give any man the right to an opinion about what you or I do with our own bodies?

[laheina]

Because it takes a sperm and an ovum to tango.

If you don't want him to have an opinion, then give up men.

But we may not be arguing in the same argument, if you know what I mean.

[K-W]

62. Civil rights maybe.

I was under the impression that I had civil rights, and amongst those was free speech.

Am I the only one that finds it mildly ironic that someone with facism in thier nick is telling people what they are and are not allowed to have an opinion on?

[K-W]

61. What a regressive attitude.

Welcome to the 21st century where intelligent people base thier opinions on facts and rational thought, something that no gender has a monopoly on.

If your opinion is that I dont get an opinion, it is your opinion that is anti-democratic and wrong.

[EmperorHasNoClothes]

15. But Jesus says all the little children must be saved!

Except for the brown ones. We can bomb the shit out of them.

[Nestea]

17. I support abortion up till the day of birth

I don't see why we are distinguishing between trimesters here. It's a woman's body.

I mean, come on, if I get a girl pregnant, and she wants to have an abortion, because we're not ready to have a kid yet, and abortion is illegal, then we're like totally FUCKED. That could screw up a girl's life if she doesn't wanna have a kid she's not ready for. You know?

So yeah, definitely pro-choice all the way. Support funding for it too. It's a health care decision.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

19. "Up to the day of birth"???

Okay, now that crosses the line. If you haven't made the decision by then, put it up for adoption.

[Nestea]

20. No, I don't think it does cross the line

What if my girlfriend hasn't made a decision yet on what to do yet? We have 9 months to decide.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

21. Stop trolling......

Please......

[Nestea]

24. I'm trolling? You're the one being anti-choice here.

I support a woman's right to choose and you obviously don't.

Wesley Clark agrees with me on this.

Grow up.

[laheina]

25. Ditto.

Obviously being inflamatory.

[Nestea]

26. I'm not trolling

What the hell is your problem? I just think that these arbitrary deadlines are ridiculous. Once we start restricting trimesters then all other kinds of restrictions will come.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

28. The problem is.......

....the fetus becomes viable at certain point. There is a point where it is simply "waiting" to leave the body. And I hardly think the concept of trimesters is "arbitrary". It is in fact, a set period of time recognized as part of a pregnancy.

Man, if it takes someone nine months to decide if they want an abortion or not, they REALLY have no business being parents, having sex or leaving the house for that matter.

[Nestea]

29. That's not really your decision , is it?

nt

[Forkboy]

30. And that sums it up!

:thumbsup:

[Nestea]

31. I wish, Forkboy

It was two on one, which is fine in some situations, but not in a debate. Once people start chipping away at abortion by trimester, its only a matter of time before it's all overturned.

:P

Glad to have a wingman now. :hi:

Signed,
A Troll(apparently)

[Redleg]

68. Forkboy the wingman. Has a nice ring to it.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

32. I guess not.........

..........although if it took that long for the same person to make a choice about crossing the street, they'd probably get run over first.....

It'd be a shame if the whole pro-choice movement got tied up with it's hardliners acting as crazy as the fundies.....

[Nestea]

48. It's obvious now

You are a fundy, but not about abortion.

How many votes for Dub in ya county? Were you one?

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

54. Wow.

Cool. Now I've been called a baby killer AND an anti-choicer in my political life. I can use this to prove what a moderate I am.

Bush got about 30% of the vote in my town, and statewide. And unless Diebold was running the machine, I sure as hell didn't vote for him. Of course, I'm sure you have enough brains to already know that unless you're just one of these folks who accuses anyone of not having the EXACT same opinion as you on every issue as being with the enemy.

One question though, Nestea. If you are so "pro-choice", I assume you have no problem with Scott Peterson being convicted of second degree murder......considering he took the choice away from Laci. Right?

[Nestea]

56. I think that's up to Californians to decide

I have no problem with fetal murder laws. It is a woman's choice, after all.

Although I do think that NARAL had it right when they support extra penalties for killing a pregnant woman instead.

Because fetal murder laws could be used to undermine Roe V Wade.

[m berst]

33. bearing false witness

The ends do not justify the means for a person operating with any moral foundation. Tricking those you presume to be sinners, in your infinite wisdom and self-proclaimed right to pass judgement on others for the alleged purpose of doing the Lord's work and thereby saving them, is self-defeating and hypocritical. Having moral standards carries with it the obligation to have the courage to take a stand for those moral standards, forthrightly and honestly.

On the off chance that you are the one in a million who would actually seriously take this position and argue it in public - well, I pity you then, too.

In either case, and whichever "side" you truly take on this subject, you have displayed a flippant and cavalier attitude that is disturbing.

[Nestea]

34. Spare me

Every post I've seen from you on here has been conservative.

[m berst]

35. interesting ploy

I see that you didn't repond to what I said, and now you make an interesting charge. Show me some of my conservative posts, please?

[Nestea]

36. advanced search is down, due to high traffic

it will have to wait.

your argument is anti-choice to the core.

[m berst]

37. right

Check this one out while you are waiting. By the way, I have never losted on this subject here before. Nice try to malign me.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2701534&mesg_id=2704153

[Nestea]

40. you're still anti-choice

nt

[m berst]

50. ok

...and your mother wears combat boots.

[Nestea]

51. And you worship fetuses

nt

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

53. selfdelete(wrong reply)

[slackmaster]

27. Works for me

[hfojvt]

38. not a valid argument

Am I going to be seen as a troll if I say that you seem to misunderstand the other side's position?
Probably, but I cannot abide by strawpeople.
Suppose you were talking about infanticide. Could you defend a woman's right to infanticide by saying "if you do not believe in it, then don't do it"? To an anti-choice person, abortion is the moral equivalent of infanticide. They must intervene to protect the helpless "baby" just as we would expect anybody to intervene, or press charges afterwards, in the case of infanticide.
For my part, I cannot see a fetus in the first tri-mester as a human life - only as a potential human life. I do not think the rights of the unborn should supersede the rights of those of us already here. Also, I do not think the planet can support ten billion people at a decent standard of living.

[K-W]

65. Not true.

If there were a societal consensus on the moral issues involved you would have a point, but there simply isnt. Most americans are not totally anti-abortion. Thus it is not anything like infantacide. I understand it is to some people, but those people need to show some actual patriotism and learn to compromise for the sake of society rather than tearing it apart in a vain attempt to thrust thier religious beliefs on everyone else.

[robbedvoter]

41. No one bought the "V" chip - it's not about "not liking" but forcing us

to do what they want. Like rape is never about sex, so is the "Moral Values" BS a power strugle.

[Freddie Stubbs]

42. The same arguement could be made about slavery

[KeyLimeDem]

43. Ever seen someone happy..

about having an abortion? Why isn't the argument about prevention? Shouldn't we be looking into finding ways to prevent un-wanted pregnancy's? Paul

[opstachuck]

44. it's not that simple...

i believe abortion is a right every woman should have but because the child is part of the mother and it's up to her to decide what she wants to do with her body. we need to explain to the pro-lifers why it isn't murder. i think it's more complicated than either side is willing to admit, maybe because we're afraid of acknowledging any part of their argument. we nead to break their ideology with science and logic. platitudes will just reinforce their outdated thinking. reason is the left's greatest asset and in my opinion is the only way we will win any converts. although most of them are too stuck to be saved.

[Jim Warren]

45. The new American Taliban

At it's core the anti-choice debate is fueled with the energy not of compassion but rather misogyny and keeping woman down using the misdirection of Mosaic Law.
What makes men of the rabid right so full of self loathing and feelings of inadequacy is beyond reason, as are all fanatics religious or otherwise.

[RUDUing2]

47. If you want to stop abortions then change social issues that lead to them

making abortions illegal will stop very few abortions from occuring...if a woman feels her only choice is to abort then she will do so in most cases whether it is legal or illegal..even if it means trying to inflict one on herself.

If anti choicers were serious about wanting to stop abortions (instead of just wanting to exert control over other peoples lives) they would be working to change the social causes that lead women to feel abortion is their best or only choice.

By voting republican they are showing they are not really concerned about LIFE but instead are only concerned about controlling other peoples lives...because if they actually were concerned about LIFE they would be voting for the party that helps those in need..instead of for the party that cuts jobs and benefits and services to the needy....

[Malva Zebrina]

55. women have known how to abort an unwanted pregnancy for eons

they will continue whether RVW is discontinued or not.

If they cannot find a clean and safe environment, they will seek other. Women KNOW what is best for them and their families and thier own life.

The persons who would put the sanctity of a blastocyst above the real living human being, the woman, show absolute disregard for the mother's life and therefore cannot claim to be pro-life.

[RUDUing2]

58. I agree...making abortion illegal has never stopped a single abortion..

it has just affected the health and safety of the procedure and of the woman.

[the other rick]

64. Do you honestly believe that?

I mean it - do you really think what you wrote could possibly be true?

[RUDUing2]

67. yes I completely believe it having lived before abortion was legal.

If a woman really wants an abortion she will get one whether they are legal or illegal......even if it means riding a roller coaster to induce a *miscarriage*....or falling down a flight of stairs...or drinking herbal concoctions or sticking a knitting needle up themselves...

If you want to stop abortions change the social issues that make women feel abortion is their only option. There will still be women who chose to have abortions and there will still be medically necessary pregnancy terminations...but it is the ONLY way to lower the number of abortions...

But that would mean that it was really about lowering abortions, and not about exerting control of women and their bodies....

[SammyWinstonJack]

49. Yep!

Makes sense to me.

[stanwyck]

52. The stats anti-abortion people

don't like to discuss: crime goes down in areas where abortions are readily accessible. And the reverse. The more restrictive abortion becomes, the more crime. Baptists and Catholics, as denominations, obtain more abortions.
Plus, the distressing statistics on child support. Less than half of child support is paid.
It's fine for people to picket abortion clinics and wax sentimental about unborn babies.
But that doesn't change reality.

[the other rick]

63. Bad, bad, bad

Come on! Don't trot out this chestnut. There are fewer abortion climics available on poor/economically depressed areas, and crime is higher there. There is now causal link between availability of abortions and crime.

Otherwise, explain Poland.

[stanwyck]

66. don't understand

your "there is now causal link between availability of abortions and crime"? What are you trying to say? You're agreeing with me?
I think you're out of your depth here. Read more. Listen to bad info from talk radio less.
You'll do better on this board.

[ogsball]

57. Oddly enough

from my own, limited, experience the most ardent anti abortion activist have been directly involved in an abortion in one form or another and act primarily out of their guilt. Start outting people and you'll get some interesting responses.

This guilt emphasis shows up in adultry premartial sex and homosexuality as well.

[Ironpost]

60. I'm not sure who said it,

but was said, I was against gay marriages until I realized I didn't need one.

[Yupster]

69. It's said over and over again,

and it seemed like an incredibly weak thing to say the first time I heard it and it seems just as bad today.

It's wrong on so many levels.

The main reason though is that abortion is a complex issue with a myriad of gray areas. For instance in this thread, there are the most ardent pro-choicers who still believe there should be some time limit to making the decision.

In fact, most people aren't completely pro-choice or pro-life. They are somewhere in between. Abortion should be legal, but regulated is probably a majority position with the arguments on the details of the regulation.

"If you don't like abortion, don't have one," completely rejects the gray areas which means rejecting the views of the majority of Americans.

It also tells people they don't even have a right to express their opinions, which is just un-American.

It also spits in the face of a huge number of people who consider abortions as the great moral issue of our time equivelant to slavery in another time. It's just downright dangerous to tell people they have no right to an opinion on something they feel so deeply about.

Finally, the argument is seen to be pitifully weak by just substitutiing other words for abortion.

If you don't like slavery, then don't own slaves.

If you don't like rape, then don't rape anyone.

If you don't like air pollution, then don't build a factory.

If you don't like dog fighting, then don't buy a pit bull.

I know the line sounds smug and works with the choir, but as an old debator who has been in a mass of such formal settings (a mass debator so to say), this is about the most self-defeating arguments I've ever heard and I hear it over and over again.

[Susang]

70. Too bad so many people can't fucking listen

Too busy talking about restricting other's rights, I guess. :eyes: