I feel like I am losing faith in everything now.

[coloradodem2005]

The Republicans are basically evil anymore and the Democrats don't seem to be doing a damned thing about it. I really don't know how to feel about this anymore. Many on here are mad at Kerry and Edwards. They are (understandably) mad at people like Evan Bayh. How do we win this fight? Or do we win this fight? Ever? If so, how many decades will it take?

[saracat]

1. Go look at the link "Kerry Breaks his silence"

It will make you feel better. He actually lashes out and barks that they are still counting the votes to the reporter. It made me think they are doing something. Watch the whole video! You will see what I mean!

[LittleClarkie]

8. He "barks" it?

Now see, that's what you lose when you can only get the written word.

Oh, my kingdom for a Windows Media Player that doesn't crash.

[saracat]

12. Yeah! He seems pissed and she keeps saying he lost! Sooo....

He gets snappish. It was good to see. She later says in her wrap up, "his feelings are still raw" No shit lady. Are you going to be surprised! (the reporter that is!):bounce:

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. I've lost my faith in the system

taht said....

We really do not know if K\E are still involved, and Kerry's statements taht votes are still being counted should tell you somehing, wink, wink, nudge, nudge... (Yes I suspect tehre is a massive battle for power behind the scenes and we are not invinted for good or bad reasons... and it will be for historians to work through the debris once the smoke clears)

That said, WE NEED to now become a resistance for the battle is now joined and will last a long time

here is a piece I wrote (and posted) last night, regarding this... for your enjoymnet, and yes think Boston Tea Party....

On Civil Disobedience

All politics is local. We have heard this over the years. My fellow citizens I must agree with Monyhan on this. All politics is local. Yet what do you do when faced with the banality of evil? What do you do when faced with those who will do ANYTHING to win? Do we have a recourse to the courts? Do we have recourse to petitions? Can we believe that any of this will help us change our circumstances?

I believe that it is a course of fools to continue to play by the same fair rules that have worked. Why do I believe the time for this is over? Why do I believe the system has completely been short circuited? It is the evidence before us. Today there is no balance in the pursuit of power. For the pursuit of power has become that of any and all means are authorized. This is the time that challenges those who truly love freedom, liberty and justice. It seems that those who have committed the worst atrocities escape the fate that we have been taught to expect.

I am to believe that following the usual course of action will have any effect? This is what I am told. I say to those who say, patience, for one day they will understand and join you, no more. It is time that we all take action. I will not advocate violence for this is exactly what they expect. This is exactly what they would do. I draw from our past, our collective past. I turn your attention to Civil Disobedience, a took used against tyrants and monsters from time immemorial.

Henry David Thoreau once wrote “As for adopting the ways which the state has provided for remedying evil, I know not of such ways. They take too much time, and a man’s life will be gone.” This is what we are being told, wait until next election, then we will have our just rewards. Only if we choose such and such a candidate we can win. We must wait for men surely will wake up from this stupor and realize that they must vote in such a way, as this is to their own interest. I say to this, we cannot afford to follow the ways that normally we have for they will not lead to our voices being heard

So I ask, will you see that the only way today is peaceful civil disobedience? Some of us have talked to you about boycotts, which again hearken back to our history. Our forefathers first fought the British using boycotts, or have all of you forgotten Boston Harbor? Yes my dear fellows this is indeed one method to pursue. Realize that we will need to do more than just boycotts. We must face the truth, and this is we are at a crossroads. Thoreau wrote at a time when the question was slavery, a great evil sweeping the nation. Also remember, that government’s authority, in order to be pure, has to have the full consent of the governed. Thoreau understood this, and it is high time we pay heed to those lessons, for it is our fate to have to re-fight for justice and well being.

Heed the words of Martin Luther King as well. His was a dream that one day we all would be able to see each other as brothers and sisters. Today some are working hard to prevent that, but Martin would tell us, patience, for this is not yet the time. This time that he spoke off was well over the side of that mountain we now can barely see. It seems we have lost any purchase we had and now we must start our climb once again.

So what should be our means?

Peaceful resistance and extending our hands in friendship to those who like us, see the evil around us. I will warn you to have patience, for the work we enter upon today is not one for the weak willed, but one that may take generations. We may not see the fruit of our labors today, but maybe our children and surely our children’s children. So be strong, and remember, what you do today will influence the future, and will help you to sleep at night. After all many of those who fought against Slavery did not survive to see the Emancipation, but they did not let that stop them. Our fight may be similar in nature and length.

This work we must embark includes bearing witness to the horrors committed as we speak in our name. They are also being committed in the name of an awesome god, who would be horrified by Pharisees who have taken the word, his or her word, and twisted it. We must speak truth to power and we must face that which now stares at us in the face. This is the true Banality of Evil perpetrated by those who have chosen to follow, blindly. They are not unlike the slave holder, who also benefited from an evil system. Nor are they different from those who across the years have become rich from the pain of others.

So how do you make this civil disobedience work? You work locally, to get people of good faith into office and then fight to keep them there. They will do all they can to drive people of good faith from office. They know that they taken over the Temple this way, and they are not about to be driven out.

You only participate in commerce with those who share a similar world view to yours. You do not give your money to the large corporate entities, and YOU FIGHT to keep them out of your back yard. You fight to keep local family businesses in business. You try to revitalize your local town. Mostly you must do as much as you can to resist the State.

You can and should continue to write petitions, Be aware that they will not be listened to. Those who have taken over the halls of government are not interested in you, but only in those who put them there. You must work with the ones who are at the bottom, and you must ensure that what happened over the last four years is not forgotten, and the horrors that are still to come are not diminished. Only when we all agree that we cannot let others walk away from their responsibility, we can have some hope of moral victory. Do not be misguided, for we are fighting truly a moral war. They believe in narrow ends, damned be the weak and the poor.

Yet give up on courts and other regular means. They will be closed to you and me, for they are now the tools of the Pharisees. Yes I know there will be a recount, and yes we may even see history and a victory, but I will advise all of you, this is not defeat just common sense. Make plans for the day when none of the legal means will work. That day is close at hand, closer than any of us believe.

Remember, all politics is local and no government has any moral authority, if it does not have the consent of the governed, and we are very close to this day already. Take heed, for the battle has just begun and steel yourselves. The night will be long, but patriots know what they must do. This is the time when spring time patriots will be culled from the herd, for those who cannot see the long night is upon us will soon retreat.

[vanboggie]

11. Though I still have a shred of hope...

...the depression I feel is reflected in your words. Perhaps it is because the hill just got steeper and I am weary of fighting to get the truth out about this wicked bunch of hooligans as I have for the past four years. I will spring back and keep up the battle though. Perhaps I just need to pop in a good Springsteen CD.

[m berst]

13. pace yourself

Some of us have been at this for 35 years now.

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. I have lost hope in the system

that does not mean that I will let depresion eat me

See anger is helping to make the changes I needed... such as where I choose to shop, what I buy, and how much I spend

Oh and CHIEFLY, BOYCOTT...

We can be VERY EFFECTIVE. If they do not count the votes, they will count the dollars

Remember that.....

;-)

[kuozzman]

3. This may cheer you up.....

http://www.eskimo.com/~tla/TimetoNoW.htm

I feel your pain too....

[autorank]

4. Have faith in yourself. You are able to articulate your position,

which is more than our 'leaders' can do, and you are actually reflecting on events, which our 'leaders' seem incapable of doing.

We don't need leaders to tell us what to do, we need leaders who will follow closely enough to be able to lead when elected. It's the new paradigm -- 'public servants.' Kerry, peel me a grape!

Corporate America controls the media and we get manufactured news.
Corporate America now controls the voting machines and we get manufactured elections.

http://www.blackboxvoting.org/

[pacalo]

5. Have patience & keep the faith.

I think there's a good reason why ALL the Democratic leaders are mum on this & are proceeding with a "business as usual" stance. There is a strategy going on that we don't know about, so don't get discouraged when you may hear a Democratic pundit say something to lead you to think otherwise. When I hear James Carville say something like "we just didn't do 'this' or 'that' right", I KNOW something's up.

If I find that I've been wrong at the time all the votes are counted & there's no recourse, I would be the first one to turn on Kerry. He's become my hero & I will be angry if he lets me down.

[Leilani]

6. I hope you're right

I'm mad & sad & scared all at the same time.

[RedTail Wolf]

9. Did you get your thanks for helping letter from Kerry

I did and it was not a "I'm still fighting message" It was an "It's over and we are all sad" message. I think anyone who supported him financially got one. They vary in content based on your level of involvement in the campaign. they all basically say" Turn out the lights, the party's over" Now he goes back to driving to work in a limo and we are still faced with the same problems as before! Sen. Edwards lost his job as well! If I'm gonna stand by anyone it will be John Edwards!


RedTail Wolf

[pacalo]

15. One other thing...

Kerry has $43 million budgeted specifically for post-election investigations -- that's proof that he anticipated problems.

That said, I will be the first one to turn my back on Kerry if he isn't working on this election debacle.

[saracat]

16. You know, I didn't. And I gave money and worked with the Campaign

and I met with him several times. I never even got the pix others got. I do have my own though! And they are signed! Should I be pissed? Am I out of the loop? Did I not get the memo? I did read the last DNC one , does that count even if it wasn't to me? Maybe its just me he won't tell. Ya think? Or maybe I didn't give a enough money ? Or could it be I told Al From he was an anachronism?? Giggle. Ain't over till the fat lady sings, and then some of us will still wonder! LOL!

[Sleepless In NY]

23. John Edwards is a millionaire

He has a limo of his own so I wouldn't worry about him too much. Too bad he couldnt carry his own state or any southern states for us. Alot of mistakes were made in this campaign, but you can't look back, it changes nothing. Hope we learn from it and benefit from it in the future. Only person I'm willing to stand by in 2008 will be Wesley Clark. But, lets see how it all goes.

[kvining]

30. Key mistake

Picking Edwards turned out to be the key mistake of the campaign. I don't think he brought much to the ticket. Hindsight seems to show Clark would have been a better pick.

[izzie]

22. In history the fundamentalist who have taken power have===

always lost. They seem to eat them selfs in their own beliefs. In all religions. I do not know why but would say it is the nature of the people in it and that it, the group, be comes more narrow in how you can believe so it just does not have the power for long. Look at the Middle East Fundy's now? They have gone under ground as they are losing their power in the country states. SA would show us that.Which fundy will win rule their? Odd that our own Fundy's are so in line to taking these Fundy's out. Each saying their Holy Book is only right, and their God is only right and they only know what is good for the people. I think we did this before in this country with the Know-Nothing party.All of our history is filled with this stuff. Just read about the Puritans of Mass Bay. Those were the people I came from. I mean these people hung Quakers.

[kvining]

7. Time to wake up

A disaster has befallen us. We can either roll over and die or FIGHT!

We have to get more organized. We have to master the art of Mass Communication the way the Repugs have, and find an develop our own channels.

We need to turn websites like this into WEAPONS.

[RedTail Wolf]

10. MARCH

We must use websites like this to organize a massive march and protest. Take it to the streets. Join me in urging DU to get behind us in this urgent matter!



RedTail Wolf

[m berst]

14. it will happen

"A true patriot would keep the attention of his fellow citizens awake to their grievances, and not allow them to rest till the causes of their just complaints are removed. Our ship is in the hands of pilots who are steering directly under full sail to a rock. The whole crew may see this course to violate our liberties in full view if they look the right way."

"It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds"

- Sam Adams

[pacalo]

17. Let's don't panic & stage a "The Lord of the Flies" just yet.

Think for a moment. There is NO WAY the Democratic leadership has forsaken us -- their voters. There is strategy afoot.

[Forkboy]

18. You should be like me and not have any faith to start with

On second thought,no you shouldn't.I can't wish my pessimism and cynicism on anyone :-(

[Redleg]

31. I'll second that.

[countmyvote4real]

20. I think I'll be dead before we make any progress.

But I will be glad to die trying. Solidarity with the oppressed.

Hello, FBI and freeper lurkers, I'm just saying. Now get over yourselves. I am so over you.

[NightOwwl]

21. For starters, we cut out the polite act...

and start calling them as we see them.

They are Fascists.

Hey, if they can call us traitors, Christ-haters and terrorists, I don't think a little word like Fascism should worry them too much. And if it does, fuck em.

If we have learned one thing from this election, I hope we have figured out we have to take the shit they throw at us and turn around and sling it right back in their faces.

[m berst]

24. I agree

But not all of "them" - most have are deluded and have been manipulated and led down the path. I think that fully half of the Bush supporters, once they see the threat, will put country above party.

The ones screaming hatred at us are the minority. Yes, the quiet ones should have taken a stand, yes, they supported this hatred with their votes. But more from ignorance than anything.

If we can rally the majority of the country - and I believe we can -against the relative handful of Dominionists and neo-cons who have conspired to hijack the Republican party and now the government, we will eliminate the threat and break the spell. The appeal of the fascists is broad, but not so deep as it seems. There will still be ignorance, there will still be Christians, there will still be conservatives, but we can break the fascist lockstep and the threat will be over. Until the threat is over, nothing will work anyway, and civil war is the only other alternative. That is to be avoided if at all possible IMHO.

[Lexingtonian]

25. Um, you may want to cut back a little

There's a reason this is called 'being a political junkie', and it ain't all purty.

And what ever happened to "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country'? What about sobering up a little and figuring out what is important, since no politician can actually deliver Happiness?

There are plenty of reasons for optimism. 2006 and 2008 don't actually look bad and could well be quite good.

As for the fight in the historical sense, this is the age that brings post-industrialism, economically, and sociopolitically all about meaningful social equality, which is all about ending exclusive rights aka privileges due to ethnic origin, gender, and religion subscribed to. Theologically, it's about theism and ideologies of a particular Divine Order starting to lose out and a kind of post-theistic/fairly humanistic consensus forming. If you're about 20-25 this is all patently obvious to you as The Future, if you're older than that it isn't so clear, and for most people over 40 or 45 it's all something considered dangerous and unreliable. As Constitutional argument, the thing being fought about is the full political realization of the 14th Amendment, its applicability to all groups of people of the society. The first battleground in all cases is social rights/privileges for a group discriminated against, the second fight is about getting the socioeconomic arrangements to fairly match the social contribution provided by the group.

The good news is that we're probably through the worst 15 year stretch of it at this point. The bad news, it's about 15 more years until it's complete. For ye youngsters, the story of the Democratic Party is that it has had to change a great deal over the past 20 years, becoming more compatible with the future in small, painful, viciously argued, little steps. For us slightly older people, we've had to watch a generation, now closer to a generation and a half, of talented politicians crash out because either they couldn't change along with the Party or their constituents made them pay the price for the pain of changes that took place over the past 30 years.

The ground continues to move for both Parties. The Republican side has had a demographic advantage for 40 years. But we've been at rough parity for ~5-6 years now, and the trend is Democratic- 3 million more voters every election for Clinton and Gore, ~5 million more this time for Kerry. There are no more Perot voters or Roosevelt Democrats for Republicans to find now, and no more fundies. Which is why top tier Republicans are not already lining up for their side's '08 nomination- they can't yet determine whether the 61 or 62 million voters they're going to need to squeak by yet again are even available. (Their turnout this time was so heavy with elderly voters that a net die-off in their numbers is a possibility.) And never mind 2008- they're deathly scared of Democrats holding together the 48% that basically approves nothing that Bush or his poodles in Congress do. That makes it very hard for the Bushies to manouver, that makes even the few things they actually want to do this term very difficult. Their 51% is turning out to be rather fragile and fractious and difficult and skeptical, so if Kerry et al. keep Democrats together- or increase the pressure on them- they're in extremely embarrassing doodoo trying to get anything done at all all of the time.

And don't assume things are over yet. I'm not one for pointless emotionalizing or endless campaigning, but there are ever more Republican moderates that are discovering that there's nothing, material or psychological, that they'll get for backing the present leadership except scorn and contempt for their opinions. People like Kerry are going to be working to help them get over the last obstacles to crossing over. Be that in the Senate or your neighbors across the street. It may not be loud much of the time but it is going to be relentless, this continuing effort to bleed and fracture and stymie the Republican coalition.

So hang in there. Take care of yourself and assume you'll be cold turkey on power rushes for a time. But have the humor and don't despair, let the Democrats in Washington do their share of the work without attacks from the rear and Monday morning quarterbacking attempts. Most of the stuff that goes on doesn't matter. The federal judges matter. Social Security solvency matters. Most of the rest is about quibbling and the games of selfimportance of the In crowd- of which we are not actual parts at this point, and should take a happy, ironic, distance from for the time being.

So simplify things a little. Decide what really matters. Concern yourself with that. Just oppose the rest of what the Bushies want/do, give it a good dose of scorn, and don't care about it deeply. Back the good people in the Party, let the others go down in flames if they do- look, they're politicians, their job is to unify people for transient causes. They're not clergymen or psychotherapists or intellectuals. They don't know history well, they don't know more economics than you do, if some class of people gets screwed or not helped by some measure they pass- the one group it won't be is themselves. So don't worry about evil in politicians, worry about who enables them to do and be what they are in the electorate or donor/lobbyist set. Do what makes you happy and gives Them fits: success is always the best revenge.

[babylonsister]

27. Nice, thoughtful post. Thanks! nt

[The Zanti Regent]

26. I have NO FAITH LEFT in Jesusland

I'm in California and I'm ready to work for secession.

Jesusland can go to hell!

[kvining]

28. Right on

I live in Jesus Land, here in Texas. Please secede so I can move. Right now the state I am most disappointed in is our neighbor New Mexico, which used to be one of the finest liberal states to live in, an island of sanity in a sea of redneck Bible thumping assholes. Now they have gone Red. Where are the leaders of the people? I am thinking of moving there, just to work to take the state back for the people.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

29. I lost it in 2000.....

n/t

[fshrink]

32. It will take several decades. Or a few riots. nt

[Generator]

33. Well believe it or not I think that's a good sign

Don't slip into the dark night of denial.

I don't trust anyone at this time. They need to prove to me what they stand for and not roll over. I don't know what the future brings either. I'm encouraged by those that are fighting voter fraud, and for voter rights.

Without verifable and open voting we have nothing.

The rest is up for debate. I'm not honestly mad at Kerry/Edwards. What actions they take in the future will determine my feelings on that. I'm in limbo. I guess (hah) I haven't surrendered my last shred of faith in them. But it certainly is in retreat.

But I have zero love of politicians right now, I couldn't give a shit about the Clinton library-where the hell has he been the last four years, definitely not fighting against Bush.

I have a renewed love with people, individuals that are proving to me that they are not backing down and ARE fighting the good fight.

I vasicilate between wanting to have nothing to do with the politics in this country and joining a group, and frankly, getting more radical than ever. I'm certainly never going the middle way again.

It's either a fight or it's not. It's not a half fight, it's not a compromise. The forces we are fighting are too dangerous for that.

America is not a fascist theocracy yet. And just because some of a miniority believe they are a majority with "morality" on their side does not mean they get to take over the country.