Some eerily pertinent yet soothing words from Thomas Jefferson

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

This passage from a Thomas Jefferson letter is from the new Bernstein
biography of Jefferson. Jefferson sent the letter in 1798 after the passage
of the Sedition Act:

"A little patience, and we shall see the reign of witches pass over, their
spells dissolve, and the people, recovering their true sight, restore their
government to its true principles. It is true that in the meantime we are
suffering deeply in spirit, and incurring the horrors of a war and long
oppressions of enormous public debt. If the game runs sometimes against us
at home we must have patience till luck turns, and then we shall have an
opportunity of winning back the principles we have lost, for this is a game
where principles are at stake."

[ClintonTyree]

1. Unfortunaltely...................

many things have changed since Jefferson's days. Things that make it so much easier to subvert Democracy to ease the transition to a Corporate (and religious) based government.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

2. So what can be done about it?

[AP]

3. You know that Elizabeth Edwards posted that quote here about a week

ago?

I'm curious about the viral nature of the internet...where'd you hear this quote?

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

4. I got in in an email from a coworker (actually an upper exec at our corp)

seems as if he typed it himself as it was one of about 4 ones he sent today

[AP]

8. Ask him where he got it, because it looks like he knows someone who knows

someone who knows a DU'er.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

9. Given his position in the company I think I'll pass on that. I only know

him peripherally. Its odd enough he's e-mailing a grunt personally at all.

[AP]

12. Maybe he monitors computer usage and he's trying to confess to everyone

who has logged on to DU that he's one of you.

OK, probably not. But this is a pretty obscure reference. It sounds like Edwards was right to post here. The idea she was trying to get out there really, well, got out there.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

13. I agree - it could be someone scooped it up from DU put it in an e-mail

which made it to him and so on

[leftynyc]

I know I passed that quote around quite a bit

after I saw it on here posted by Mrs. Edwards. I did attribute it to Thomas Jefferson.

[AP]

18. Barbara Streisand put it on her blog 3 days after Edwards posted it here.

Streisand didn't cite Edwards ore the book from which the quote came. So CSTT's boss probably didn't get it from Babs. Maybe the boss knows someone in your email list?

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

47. He could have written it himself - he and a coworker have been reading

alot of founding father documentaries but you're probably right. Its a big coincidence

[AP]

48. It depends on whether that letter had been published anywhere prominent

prior to the book Edwards cited.

Edwards said that she's reading the book (which came out in July, I believe) right now.

If you google, you see that the quote doesn't start to pop up until after Nov 3 when Edwards posted about it at DU. So it looks like this is something that Edwards started at DU and then caught fire all over.

I wonder if Streisand read it here or if someone emailed it to her without citing Edwards. You'd think that if she actually read it here she would have given Edwards credit.

[Pikku]

70. Didn't Garrison Keillor read it last week on PHC?

I saw it in three places nearly simultaneously.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

73. I do remember him quoting oft that day!

[liberal N proud]

5. I think this statement should become the DU Maxim

This would be a great motto, maybe even post it on the home page.
We shouuld all call back to this to get us through the next 4.

[LiberalEsto]

6. I hope I'm not being too PC

but this does (ahem) insult witches. Some of my best friends are witches.

I'm sure we can find some better quotes that don't denigrate people of the pagan persuasion. I'm serious.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

7. Well you need to get over it - he's using metaphor not being literal

it was also 200 years ago

[LiberalEsto]

10. I'll get over it when Christians apologize for the milllions of burnings

and tortures of witches in the past. And when the fundamentalist lunatics now in charge of our nation stop ranting about "satanism" and "witches" and "pagans" as if it were still the 1500s.


I realize Jefferson is using a metaphor, but I suggest we find another quote. Would you tolerate DU adopting a theme quote that insults African-Americans or Hispanics? I think not.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

11. You sound just like the people who want to ban Huck Finn cause it has

the N word - out of hand PC.

If you can't see through language to get to the real meaning of whats being said then you're missing alot.

[Mad_Dem_X]

14. Jefferson rocks

And I don't think he was deliberately trying to insult witches.

[LiberalEsto]

16. There is a big difference

between banning a book over a troublesome word, and asking a group not to adopt a quote as a motto because it contains questionable words, when there are plenty of quotations that could serve the same purpose. I hope that you are able to perceive that difference.

I am not seeking to ban or censor any part of Jefferson's writing. I admire much of it. I am simply suggesting that you find some other quote to promote for a DU motto, if you feel there is a need for one.

For your information, I am not some ignorant idiot who wants to censor things simply for political correctness. I have a BA in English literature and a career of more than 30 years as a newspaper and magazine journalist. I strongly oppose censorship, and once wrote an award-winning newspaper editorial on that subject.

That said, pagans and witches have as much right to public respect as any other group considered to exist on the margins of society. I understand the consoling thoughts Jefferson is attempting to communicate; I'm not interested in censoring his statement; I simply feel there must be better ways to express those sentiments.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

17. Oh my God

ok

[AP]

19. How do you feel about the Eagles' Witchy Woman?

sparks fly from her finger tips
Echoed voices in the night
she's a restless spirit on an endless flight
wooo hooo witchy woman, see how
high she flies
woo hoo witchy woman she got
the moon in her eye
She held me spellbound in the night
dancing shadows and firelight
crazy laughter in another
room and she drove herself to madness
with a silver spoon
woo hoo witchy woman see how high she flies
woo hoo witchy woman she got the moon in her eye
Well I know you want a lover,
let me tell your brother, she's been sleeping
in the Devil's bed.
And there's some rumors going round
someone's underground
she can rock you in the nighttime
'til your skin turns red
woo hoo witchy woman
see how high she flies
woo hoo witchy woman
she got the moon in her eye

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

20. Or the "Witch Winds of November" which sank the Edmond Fitzgerald?

[Wat_Tyler]

21. Gotta go with 'Season of the Witch' by Donovan.

When I look out my window,
Many sights to see.
And when I look in my window,
So many different people to be
That it's strange, so strange.
You've got to pick up every stitch,
You've got to pick up every stitch,
You've got to pick up every stitch,
Mm, must be the season of the witch,
Must be the season of the witch, yeah,
Must be the season of the witch.
When I look over my shoulder,
What do you think I see ?
Some other cat looking over
His shoulder at me
And he's strange, sure he's strange.
You've got to pick up every stitch,
You've got to pick up every stitch,
Beatniks are out to make it rich,
Oh no, must be the season of the witch,
Must be the season of the witch, yeah,
Must be the season of the witch.
You've got to pick up every stitch,
The rabbits running in the ditch,
Beatniks are out to make it rich,
Oh no, must be the season of the witch,
Must be the season of the witch,
Must be the season of the witch.
When I look.
When I look out my window,
What do you think I see ?
And when I look in my window,
So many different people to be
It's strange, sure it's strange.
You've got to pick up every stitch,
You've got to pick up every stitch,
The rabbits running in the ditch,
Oh no, must be the season of the witch,
Must be the season of the witch, yeah,
Must be the season of the witch.
When I look, when I look.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

22. Frank Sinatra's "Witchcraft"

hose fingers in my hair.
That sly
come hither stare
that strips my conscience bare
it's witchcraft.
And I've got no defense for it.
The heat is too intense for it.
What good would commonsense for it do?
'Cause it's witchcraft!
Wicked witchcraft.
And although I know
it'a strictly taboo
when you arouse the need in me
my heart says "yes
indeed" in me
Proceed with what you're lead in 'me to!
It's such an ancient pitch
but one I wouldn't switch
'Cause there's no nicer witch than you!

[Wat_Tyler]

24. Nick Drake on the lighter side of paganism.

I was born to love no one
No one to love me
Only the wind in the long green grass
The frost in a broken tree.

I was made to love magic
All it’s wonder to know
But you all lost that magic
Many many years ago.

I was born to use my eyes
Dream with the sun and the skies
To float away in a lifelong song
In the mist where melody flies.

I was made to love magic...

I was born to sail away
Into a land of forever
Not to be tied to an old stone grave
In your land of never.

I was made to love magic...

[AP]

25. That's one of my favorite Sinatra songs and I wouldn't say that I'm a huge

Sinatra fan.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

28. Its shameful the way Warren Zevon slandered the Brithish Lupine community

I saw a werewolf with a Chinese menu in his hand
Walking through the streets of Soho in the rain
He was looking for a place called Lee Ho Fook's
Going to get himself a big dish of beef chow mein
Werewolves of London

If you hear him howling around your kitchen door
Better not let him in
Little old lady got mutilated late last night
Werewolves of London again
Werewolves of London

He's the hairy-handed gent who ran amuck in Kent
Lately he's been overheard in Mayfair
Better stay away from him
He'll rip your lungs out, Jim
I'd like to meet his tailor
Werewolves of London

Well, I saw Lon Chaney walking with the Queen
Doing the
I saw Lon Chaney, Jr. walking with the Queen
Doing the
I saw a werewolf drinking a pina colada at Trader Vic's
His hair was perfect
Werewolves of London
Draw blood

[AP]

31. Whatever. At least he knows to call a lawyer when the shit hits the fan.

Well, I went home with the waitress
The way I always do
How was I to know
She was with the Russians, too

I was gambling in Havana
I took a little risk
Send lawyers, guns and money
Dad, get me out of this

I'm the innocent bystander
Somehow I got stuck
Between the rock and the hard place
And I'm down on my luck
And I'm down on my luck
And I'm down on my luck

Now I'm hiding in Honduras
I'm a desperate man
Send lawyers, guns and money
The shit has hit the fan

Send lawyers, guns and money...

[Beware the Beast Man]

36. We in the Lupine community prefer "trans-species," than you very much

:P

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

38. Next you'll be calling Mummies "Preserved-royalty"

[Beware the Beast Man]

39. Don't get me started on the Hyper-pedal Nomadic Americans either.

The term "Sasquatch" is derogatory!

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

41. And post-death-brainovores

My uncle was called a Zomby for years - and he HATED coffee

[AP]

23. Or Macbeth?

1 WITCH.  Thrice the brinded cat hath mew'd.
       2 WITCH.  Thrice and once, the hedge-pig whin'd.
       3 WITCH.  Harpier cries:—'tis time! 'tis time!
       1 WITCH.  Round about the caldron go;
    In the poison'd entrails throw.—
    Toad, that under cold stone,
    Days and nights has thirty-one;
    Swelter'd venom sleeping got,
    Boil thou first i' the charmed pot!
       ALL.  Double, double toil and trouble;
    Fire burn, and caldron bubble.
       2 WITCH.  Fillet of a fenny snake,
    In the caldron boil and bake;
    Eye of newt, and toe of frog,
    Wool of bat, and tongue of dog,
    Adder's fork, and blind-worm's sting,
    Lizard's leg, and owlet's wing,—
    For a charm of powerful trouble,
    Like a hell-broth boil and bubble.
       ALL.  Double, double toil and trouble;
    Fire burn, and caldron bubble.
       3 WITCH.  Scale of dragon; tooth of wolf;
    Witches' mummy; maw and gulf
    Of the ravin'd salt-sea shark;
    Root of hemlock digg'd i the dark;
    Liver of blaspheming Jew;
    Gall of goat, and slips of yew
    Sliver'd in the moon's eclipse;
    Nose of Turk, and Tartar's lips;
    Finger of birth-strangled babe
    Ditch-deliver'd by a drab,—
    Make the gruel thick and slab:
    Add thereto a tiger's chaudron,
    For the ingrediants of our caldron.
       ALL.  Double, double toil and trouble;
    Fire burn, and caldron bubble.
       2 WITCH.  Cool it with a baboon's blood,
    Then the charm is firm and good.

[Wat_Tyler]

26. Don't forget Harry Potter.

After all, Lord Voldemort doesn't really show Warlocks in the most appropriate light, does he?

[AP]

29. Right. Full-blooded witches: bad. Half-human half-witch: good.

That's the lesson from Harry Potter.

So we can change the Jefferson quote to "reign of full-blood witches"

And that should be fine for LiberalEsto's friends, since I presume they're all at least half-blood witches

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

30. Or Bugs Bunny

[verdalaven]

42. Hi...

Note: I have to add this- Oh my god, all those songs! You people are quick and hilarious! I'll leave my original post, but feel out matched and humbled by the wit flying around here! :) eam


My sister is Wiccan and well versed on this subject. She is a fan of Jefferson, too, I might add.

From her: Many of the "burnings" weren't of witches, per se, but of midwives and healers who used secular methods to treat illness. In some circles the charge of "witch" was used by the Church to subjugate women powerful in their communities. At least this is what my sister tells me.

If it was not used in a derogatory way, why is this quote offensive?

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

45. Very well said indeed

[verdalaven]

52. I have to share this

I wrote my sister about this subject and this is the email she sent back to me. Thought I'd share.


If you ask me, this country has been under a wicked spell, one that causes blindness, deafness and a willful turning away...

What is a spell, but a weaving of words, a mixing of ingredients and the power of belief? Is that not what the political witchdoctors of the Bush administration have done to the American people? They have used words, images and fear to play the emotions of people. They have used a common religion, Christianity, as their cauldron and media control in an attempt to veil the eyes of those who might be impervious to their brand of magic.

Karl Rove as a witch doctor?

I can see it!

[Chelsea Patriot]

43. "Fundamentalist lunatics"?! You're the one with literal reading!

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

46. LOL!

Good point!

:thumbsup:

[Wat_Tyler]

15. Oh, for God's sake, toughen up.

It's a metaphor. This whole PC language-police business is way out of hand.

[ventvon]

27. William "Jefferson" Clinton is related to Thomas Jefferson

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Wat_Tyler]

33. Oh, get over it.

You over-reacted, and now we're making light of the situation.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

34. Good Lord- Lighten up. We're all on the same damn side

[Beware the Beast Man]

37. Umm...no

4200 posts and 3 donations later, I can safely say I'm not a freeper.

It must be cloudy...I don't see any stars.

[AP]

40. Unless I'm way off, people who chose to self-identify as witches do so

BECAUSE of the images of witches that all these pop culture references from Shakespeare to Harry Potter project.

Jefferson is only saying that a spell has been cast over the public. Who casts spells? What's a good literary allusion for Jefferson to use? How about witches? Are your self-identifying witch friends trying to distance themselves from the whole spell-casting thing?

[nonconformist]

50. Huh?

First off, I agree that Jefferson was using a metaphor and I don't think his quote is inappropriate in the least - and I am a Pagan.

That said - people that chose to self-identify themselves as witches do so because they're Wiccans. It has nothing to do whatsoever with pop culture... in fact, they're more likely to be "in the closet" BECAUSE of pop culture.

I just wanted to note that. I'm not Wiccan, but I know many that are and have studied Wicca extensively.

[AP]

55. What does "Wiccan" mean to people though?

I really don't know.

To me, it's seems to be like identifying yourself as Goth, except you replace music with a sort of mystic spiritualism that isn't too far from the things portrayed in those songs.

And I mean to contrast this with other belief systems that are based on, say, centuries old texts, or philosophies that have obvious paths along which they develop. I really don't know where Wiccans came from. Since the people who were burned at stakes were generally NOT witches, I don't think the Wiccan philosophy is something that evloved from what those persecuted people believed.

However, it's probably partly a reaction to the idea that being a witch was once a prosecutable offense. But where does that link to that come from? I think -- and don't really know -- that it comes from popular culture.

I don't know. I'm willing to learn.

(By the way, I'm definitely distinguising being a Wiccan from race, which, even though in great part a social construct, in addition to being biological, you have no choice but to incorporate into your identity).

[LiberalEsto]

57. It's my religion

At the risk of having my head handed to me some more, I'd like to explain that I have practiced the wiccan religion for more than 30 years.

I don't consider myself one of those people who runs around dressed in black, wearing capes and big pentagrams. In fact I seldom participate in group events precisely because I don't want to be with people to whom it means something like being a goth, for attention's sake.

To me being a wiccan is like being a Lutheran or a Buddhist. It's my faith, and as long as this is a free country, I will continue practicing it. Even the U.S. military recognizes wicca as a religion.

I'm sorry if I offended anyone. I feel hurt when I think people are making fun of something I take seriously.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

60. No one is making fun of you, seriously. We're kidding around. Listen,

This is your religion - I think thats beautiful, genuinely I do.

We're not being serious because no one was ever making fun of your religion - but the cariacature. Unfortunately the term "witch" has an entirely different meaning in our society than the wiccan connotation - you know that far better than I.


Furthermore - I'm a Christian and I joke about Jesus all the time yet I take my religion very seriously. To me there's a difference between the sterilized commercialized Jesus of much of this society and what I hold dear to my heart.

Also in your first post you said that some of your best friends are witches and then you say that its YOUR religion - :shrug:

[LiberalEsto]

63. There is a reason for that..

"Also in your first post you said that some of your best friends are witches and then you say that its YOUR religion."


Like many other wiccans, I am extremely reluctant to "come out" and publicly announce my religious beliefs. There are so many misconceptions about wicca -- people think we're satan-worshipers, that we practice blood sacrifices, or that we're young punks desperate for attention. I don't want people to think I'm a nutcase or make jokes about what I believe.

So I started out by saying that some of my best friends are wiccan -- and that is true. Subsequently, to defend my position, I admitted that I am wiccan. This means I choose to perceive the Creator as a feminine force, regard myself as part of (and not above) nature, and respect our law" "Harm no one, and do what you will."

[AP]

66. This is an anonymous forum. You still haven't come out.

It's not clear to me why you'd come out in the middle of this thread and not the start of it.

[LiberalEsto]

67. clarification

To clarify for you :


I didn't want to admit at first that I was a wiccan, out of long habit and (legitimate or not) fear. I just wanted to make a point that I had a bit of a problem with the quote, though NOT that I was attacking Jefferson or trying to censor it.

As a result of what I wrote, I felt that I was being attacked by some and made fun of by others.

To defend my position, I then tried to explain that I felt this way because of my religious belief, which I was previously reluctant to disclose.

If you want to understand how this sort of thing makes me feel, try substituting "negro" or "jew" for "witch" in Jefferson's statement.

I rarely speak up about the use of negative terms for witches, because I don't want to get into a hassle with people. This time, I wanted to say something, because I thought DU'ers were somewhat tolerant of different points of view.

I am sorry if I have expressed myself poorly about this.

[AP]

68. Wiccans didn't coopt the term "witch" until 125 years after Jefferson's

letter and even then it doesn't look like the Wiccan philosophy has anything at all to do with the literary signifier Jefferson uses.

Do you mind my asking, what does it mean to you to be a Wiccan? What's your basic philosophy?

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

69. Let me say LiberalEsto -I respect your religion no doubt-please don't take

me as harsh or disrespectful. I was only jesting. My point all along is that these are just words. You are among friends - even us jackasses - the point we were trying to make is that we are the accepting folks - us liberals. Please, as a friend accept my olive branch. You will find me, and my friends people who will fight for our friends whatever their stripe, to the end!

-peace

Josh

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

74. Wasn't that Alistaire Crowley's motto - or was his simply "Do what thou

will"?

[AP]

62. What's the connection between "Wiccan" today and the witches that...

...Jefferson uses as a device in his letter or to the witches in Shakespeare?

Speaking for myself, it's not that I'm not taking Wiccans seriously. It's just that I'm having a hard time connecting up what a Wiccan is to what Jefferson is talking about.

[nonconformist]

58. Wicca is a religion

It has nothing to do with the 'goth' fashion style, although admittedly some people that are Wiccan are also Goth, but certainly not all. Most look, dress and act just like 'normal' people.

The 'burning times' witches have hardly anything in common with current Wiccans - as it has already been stated, a great deal of them were falsely accused or had some talent that was scary or misunderstood at the time. Few it seems were actively practicing the ancient rituals from where Wicca derives, although from my studies a small minority were and it exasperated the problem. The main connection that can be made between the two is the remaining stereotype that "witches" are bad, evil and demonic. Of course, none of that is even remotely true.

Wicca, as it is defined today, is a fairly new religion that became known within the last 75 years or so. Many of the roots, however, are derived from old Celtic and Pagan rituals. Practioners of Wicca are called 'witches', much like practioners of Christianity are called 'christians'. However, not all Wiccans practice the actual craft (which is nothing more really than ritualistic praying). In a nutshell, it's a combination of Paganism, Druidism, Hinduism and other old customs. Basically, a modern religion based on ancient customs.

There's no doubt that there are some young people that are drawn to Wicca or the label of being a witch because of style alone. Most Wiccans aren't though and take their faith very seriously. Most Wiccans worship both a God and a Goddess - sometimes many different Gods and Goddesses depending on a number of factors. It's quite complex and there are no set rules, besides the Wiccan Rede which is "An it harm none, do what ye will".

[AP]

65. See, if it's something that started in the last 75 years and the people...

...who practice it picked out the term "witch" for themselves, then I really don't understand what's wrong with Jefferson's quote. It's an amalgam philosophy that took as its constituent parts existing terminology as it found it, with all of its meaning already associated.

I mean, how can you seriously try to rehabilitate the term "witch" ex post facto when you knew all the things with which the term is associated when you picked up the term? And it's REALLY important to emphasize that, as far as I can tell, there seems to be no philosophical continuum that you can draw from Jefferson's literary "witches" to "Wiccans." It's basically the term that Wiccans picked up without regard for whether there even ever existed people called witches who shared their philosophy at an point before the 1920s.

That's like if I decided that I wanted to start a serious philosophy on the principles of caring about yourself first and foremost and called it "selfishness" and then went around saying that people should stop calling people selfish because it now means something else to me, and that any references to the word selfish from before the time my "Selfishness" philosophy came into being are insensitive.

Everyone is entitled respect for their beliefs. But beliefs aren't a license to co-opt PREEXISTING terms. If Elizabeth Edwards wrote today that we are living during the "reign of Wiccans" now that would be worth talking about. But I'm not even sure Jefferson saying 200 years ago "reign of witches" was all that bad then, and it certainly isn't saying anything bad about a philosophy that was still 125 years from nascence.

Or is that a bad analogy?

[AP]

56. And to add one more thing:

think of it this way. Lots of groups have been persecuted for what they believe, or because of some element of their identity which they couldn't change. The persecution wasn't part of their identity. Jews aren't jews today because they said, "hey, people who are jews were once persecuted, so I am a jew." They say, "I believe in X,Y and Z so I am a Jew" and persecution has no part of their identity.

I think a lot of Wiccans, however, chose to be Wiccans because they have a sense that people with whom they have no philosophical (or any other) connection were once persecuted BECAUSE other people accused them of being witches. Ancient persecution is part of the identity. That's why it seems strange to say, "he, let's not persecute witches?"

How can you say that when it's why people chose to be Wiccans today?

[nonconformist]

59. This may have been clarified above, but

I will just say that the vast majority of Wiccans are no different than people that felt a calling to any religion - be it Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, or - yes - Judaism (if they've converted). As well, Wicca has been around long enough to have people who were raised up in it by their parents that were also raised up in it - again, much like other religions.

I really don't see the persecution lovin' angle. The 'burning times' witches are rarely, if ever, mentioned in books on Wicca - and if they are it's just to clarify it.

[LiberalEsto]

64. good point.

I try not to think about the persecutions, except to keep in mind that with the religious right on the ascendancy, there may yet be a new round of persecution coming, for anyone whose beliefs they don't like.

[starroute]

35. What happened in 1798 isn't as remote as you might think

The Alien and Sedition Acts of 1798 were passed largely in response to a right-wing panic over fears of none other than the Bavarian Illuminati:

New England was soon gripped by a panic that the (mythical) Bavarian Illuminati, a secret, French-controlled, atheistic, antidemocratic cabal, was conspiring to undermine American liberty and religion. Despite the absence of any extant Bavarian Illuminati, many believed that the United States was in grave danger and "the vast majority of New England Federalists accepted the conspiracy charges as entirely plausible, if not completely proven." The evils of the Terror in post-Revolutionary France only served to confirm the awesome power of conspirators, for only a vast conspiracy could explain the otherwise bewildering series of events. The image of the Terror, and the Masonic or Jacobean conspirators behind it, was one of the themes sounded to justify the Alien and Sedition Acts.

http://www.swiss.ai.mit.edu/6095/articles/froomkin-metaphor/partIVA.html#ENDBACK622


Soon after his Inaugural, Adams sent a new minister to France bearing an olive branch; the French kicked him out of the country. This move, claimed Adams, had "inflicted a wound" which Adams would seek to "heal." However, since Adams had retained Washington's cabinet, Jefferson and Hamilton had free range to undermine his authority. The first excuse came with the second wave of immigrants from France, a propagandizing force on behalf of the revolution. Reverend Jedidiah Morse claimed the "Illuminati" among the aliens were secular atheists loyal to Jefferson. The Federalists suspected that the influx was bringing a host of Jacobin sympathizers to foment revolution and to act as French agents in the anticipated conflict. ...

Allegedly, the Jacobin revolutionaries were prepared to spread a reign of terror from nation to nation. ... The American public had been softened by loyalists, alienated by revolutionaries, and persuaded by British leaders that the French were pure evil. These fears were given a philosophical justification in many treatises, most notably Edmund Burke's Reflections on the Revolution in France, which became a primer for those rallying to stem the radical tide. ...

Throughout this period, Federalist leaders held secret meetings to plot the fate of their party; they carefully monitored the press and encouraged their friends to publish supportive articles. Unfriendly papers were scrutinized and enemies lists were drawn up. It was a moment in history when freedom of political expression in America could be called into question -- on theoretical and practical grounds.

http://www.csulb.edu/~crsmith/alien.htm

What makes all this less amusing than it might otherwise seem is that much of the extreme right-wing in this country today still believes it is battling this same illusory Illuminati conspiracy:

In his book "The New World Order", <Pat> Robertson manages to parrot virtually every one of the canards tossed around by the paranoid Right. According to Robertson, a secret cabal of "international (read: "Jewish") bankers and financiers", along with the Illuminati, the Trilateral Commission and various other groups, is trying to destroy Christianity, take over the world and impose a satanic "one world government". Among other things, says Robertson, these conspirators killed Lincoln, started the First World War, have taken over the world monetary system, and are using the education system to destroy morality so the US can be taken over by UN troops.

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/2437/fundies.htm


The fear of a hidden conspiracy directed against Western Civilization, Christianity, and the "American free enterprise system" is a recurring theme which runs through and permeates the entire Right-Wing matrix. Its being peddled by leaders in the New Right to Americans desperate for an easily understood reason as to why their European, Christian-based culture has seemingly been stripped from them by "secular humanists" and replaced by what is perceived to be an "amoral" multiculturalism with which few of them can easily relate. It's most extreme expression has taken the form of the Illuminati Myth; its most moderate version is the "Secular-Humanist Conspiracy." ...

Four years later, in 1917, according to Robertson, the Illuminati captured the Soviet Union, and since that time this sinister cabal has essentially played the one power off against the other with the aim of draining the strength out of both (i.e., the United States and Russia) by exhausting them in a hopelessly expensive arms race, and finally - when both nations lie prostrate - stepping in over their beaten bodies to assume power over the world. With the collapse of the Soviet Union, the plan is already far advanced. Only the United States - now impossibly mired in debt and teetering on the verge of financial ruin - stands in the way; and only resurgent Christian political power can keep the U.S., the earth's last great hope, from collapse - or so Robertson believes.

http://www.antipasministries.com/oldnews/illuminism.html

See also http://www.publiceye.org/rightist/salvi.html for more on right-wing conspiracy theory. And see what appears to be a highly eccentric anti-New World Order site at http://www.the7thfire.com/new_world_order/final_warning/illuminati_spreads_to_america.htm for a contemporary wingnut take on the illuminist panic of the 1790's.


To a shocking degree, the events of 1798 set the template for the McCarthyism of the early 50's, from the fears of foreign revolutionaries to the accusations of treason within the US government. And that same template is still very much in play at the present moment (complete with an otherwise inexplicable demonization of the French!)

This isn't just a matter of historical parallels, either. At least in the eyes of the Right, it's all the same two hundred year long war, and they won't rest until they come out on top.

[Javaman]

44. Do you think the founding fathers called him Tommy?

[starroute]

49. Maybe "Tom" -- I don't think "Tommy" had been invented yet

I do a lot of genealogy, and I've noticed that nicknames ending in -y or -ie are pretty recent.

In the 1600's, nicknames were usually just shortened forms of regular names, sometimes with an altered first letter -- Will, Tom, Dick, Ned (for Edward), Jack (for John). Or, among women, Bess (for Elizabeth), Nell (for Eleanor), Moll (for Mary). All those pirate-ish sounding names.

Nicknames in -y seems to have appeared first among women in the 1700's and become very popular towards the end of the century -- Sally (for Sarah), Polly (for Mary), Dolly (for Dorothy).

It's not until the 1800's that -y endings for men's nicknames begin showing up so that you see references to Davey Crockett or "Johnnie Reb." And even then, it's mostly a little kid/lower class/frontier sort of thing.

Which is a long say of saying that I very much doubt anyone ever called Thomas Jefferson "Tommy."

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

51. Thats what I was thinking

They probab;y called him Jeff

[Beware the Beast Man]

53. I heard Ben Franklin was fond of calling him "T-Money."

My college history courses paid off!

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

54. And Hamilton went by the monicker "10-Piece"

[crispini]

61. Oddest. Thread. Ever.

The collaborative-writing nature of the internet once again produces something that is interesting, informative, poetic, argumentative, and flips from subject to subject faster than a chihuahua breakdancing on the TV remote. :thumbsup: Good job, people!

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

71. We do our best - hey we're the creative class :-)

[Wat_Tyler]

72. says 'Remedial' on the door.