Gun Control

[Boosterman]

Should we drop it as an issue? Re-frame it? Honestly I think our stance on this cost us a lot of votes. Hypocrites in the democratic party cost us even more.

Personally if there was some way to just eliminate them I would probably go for that idea. Most wouldn't though IMO. Its one of the key issues so I am asking for your thoughts.

[fujiyama]

1. I think it's dead as an issue

In future elections my guess is that it will be local issue, just as it should well be.

[forgethell]

9. Should other issues

involving constitutional rights also be "local" issues? Abortion, segregation, gay marriage?

[fujiyama]

12. What is your point?

Are you saying there should be absolutely no gun control whatsoever?

Or are you saying that there should be gun control at the federal level?

I think I interpret the 2nd amendment differently. I'm not too familiar with consistitutional law cases dealing with the 2nd amendment, but I have never seen it to prohibit any restrictions at all on gun ownership.

I also think that for the time being gay marriage should also be left to the states. That's why I'm against the FMA. Personally I have no problem with gay marriage, but it's a losing issue.

Abortion has been allowed under Roe v. Wade. As long as the ruling stands, then it is the law. I personally support the ruling.

And segregation was also outlawed under Brown vs Board...

So the last two issues have already been decided.

[forgethell]

21. What's my point?

I guess it is more a question than a point.

When does the federal government have authority to do something and when does it not?

As I understand their arguments, the anti-gun control people want the issue to stay in the states. Well, I agree with that, as I am also anti-gun control.

But so, as I understand them, do the anti-choice people. Yes, they will fight at the state or local level, too. but the court decision took the issue out of the political arena. They resented it, and now they are going after control of the courts. And why should they not? It doesn't matter, really, whether they are right, or wrong. That's a philosophical question. I have my opinion, as do you. But their opinion has been shut out, and they are kicking the door in. Even if they get a conservative court, many states have laws permitting abortion. So just overturning Roe will not eliminate abortion. Then it will go to the states, where we would have an excellent chance of winning the issue in many places.

Gay marriage. This is not an issue that I feel strongly about, one way or the other. But again, some people do. They have a right to their opinion. If you listen to their arguments they do not want 5 justices in a dinky little New England state deciding for the whole nation, under the full Faith and credit clause of the Constitution, that gay marriage is legal. Others don't want justices deciding this at all, thinking that such a fundamental change is society should be decided by the people through their legislatures, rather than a few judges. Again, it is a philosophical question. Should the people make the decision, or should wise philosopher-kings do it? Is the right to marry a right, or not? If they weren't afraid that the Defense of Marriage Act, which only says, if I am not mistaken, that no state has to recognize the gay marriages performed in another state, was going to be overturned, then there wouldn't be such a clamor for the FMA. If the mayor of San Francisco had not blatantly defied the law of the state of California, perhaps there wouldn't either. I'm afraid that this issue has aroused a slumbering giant, and just hope the country doesn't back-pedal too much.

[Blue_Tires]

2. the gungeon will have some interesting thoughts on it, i think

[BiggJawn]

3. It cost us dearly.

Sure, we got footage of Kerry hunting, and he spoke about his being a hunter and firearm owner and all, but as long as LaPierre says "The Democrats wanna take your GUNS!" it will continue to be an issue.

[Zero Gravitas]

4. Dead issue

The national Democratic party should stay well away from gun control. The fact is the guns are out there and love them or hate them they're not going away. For the national Dem party its a lose/lose issue. Its better left to local/state government to deal with.

[DireStrike]

5. Needs reshaping and reframing

Just point out that fags can buy guns too.

I do agree that it's pretty much dead.

[Fescue4u]

6. Other than the house, senate, president

and now Supreme court..

Its not been a losing issue at all!

The decline of the Democratic party started with the 1994 gun bans. Thats when we lost the house and Senate.

We lost Tennesee (and the presidency) in 2000, largely because gun control is a bad issue in the south.

The 2004 election didnt talk much about gun control, however Kerry did make a couple major mistakes in that area.

I was very dissapointed to see that while Kerry voted on very few issues this year, he did take time out to vote for the AWB ban and then posed for that picture with Schumer, Kennendy and Feinstein...proably the most ardudent supporters of gun bans in the Senate.

Did the Famous Ohio Goose hunt picture reverse the damage of Kerrys anti gun record? Personally I seriously doubt it.

In the end, we lost by 100k or so votes in Ohio...a state that just passed concealled carry and has a very active gun owning population.

If Kerry were progun, would that have flipped Ohio? I tend to think so.

So now we have A Republican House, Senate, President, and Bush will no doubt pack the Supreme court. All a direct result of trying to strip away the 2nd ammendment.

Not good.

Its not enough to stop talking about gun control. Its time to reverse the damage and actively support the 2nd ammendment and an individuals right to own a firearm.

[immoderate]

7. Always find lots of 2nd amenment supporters at DU.

It surprised me in the beginning.

My take: In a free country no one can tell me I can't own a gun.

Also I'm the freepers worst nightmare, a liberal with a gun!

--IMM

[Blue_Tires]

8. more thoughts

this has been a difficult issue for me to deal with...i used to be against guns and violence in all forms (the way i was raised--that ol' "violence dehumanizes us all and should only be self-defense" thing i was taught by my parents)

Up until recently, i felt that guns, although i didn't like them, can be viewed as a necessary evil which can still be restrained...just keep them out of the hands of the criminals and wackos (hunters, rec shooters, and other responsible owners are fine)...

But now, gun control is too caustic an issue in this current political atmosphere, and needs to be dropped...I'll even go one step further: I could give less than a good goddamn anymore, since all i keep hearing is "I would have voted for Kerry if he had the NRA endorsement." Based on some of the posts here and and in the gungeon (many of which i suspect voted for bush, despite what they say), we need to change our party platform. Guns for everybody!! CCW everywhere! Churches! Hospitals! Schools! Anywhere you want! (just try not to aim at me if you see me walking down the street)

Let's make ourselves even MORE pro-gun than the GOP, since it will (in theory) get us needed votes..The fact that Bush is still in office thanks to the NRA and some single-issue voters makes me sick...lets try to change this

[Peak_Oil]

10. How many gun owners are there in the US?

That's the size of the group that will pay attention to 2nd amendment/gun rights/gun control stances. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=80+million+gun+owners&btnG=Google+Search

I remember seeing the number 80 million before, and it seems to come up fairly frequently on Google.

If the entire million mom march voted one way and 10% of gun owners vote the other, it's still an 800% increase in votes on the gun owners' side.

[Blue_Tires]

11. that's what i'm saying

and if enough of them are so locked in to the issue that they'll support the bigger gun candidate NO matter the party or his/her other policies, then go for it...this is an issue that we cannot let the GOP monoploize

[Cuban_Liberal]

13. It's a bad issue for us, and badly needs re-framing.

The problem isn't the guns, overall, it's the criminals who use the guns, and I'm speaking as a former law-enforcement officer. We need to get away from silly, cosmetic things like the AWB and get behind solid criminal legislation, e.g., 'use a gun, go to prison for X years without possibility of parole'.

It's a problem of predators, ya'll.

[Doomsayer13]

14. Check out Kristof's column in the NYTimes

great insight on how the Democrats should tackle the gun issue -

Since the Brady Bill took effect in 1994, gun-control efforts have been a catastrophe for Democrats. They have accomplished almost nothing nationally, other than giving a big boost to the Republicans. Mr. Kerry tried to get around the problem by blasting away at small animals, but nervous Red Staters still suspected Democrats of plotting to seize guns.

<snip>

So it's time for a fundamentally new approach, emblematic of how Democrats must think in new ways about old issues. The new approach is to accept that handguns are part of the American landscape, but to use a public health approach to try to make them much safer.


The model is automobiles, for a high rate of traffic deaths was once thought to be inevitable. But then we figured out ways to mitigate the harm with seat belts, air bags and collapsible steering columns, and since the 1950's the death rate per mile driven has dropped 80 percent.

<snip>


We take safety steps that reduce the risks of everything from chain saws (so they don't kick back and cut off an arm) to refrigerators (so kids can't lock themselves inside). But firearms have been exempt. Companies make cellphones that survive if dropped, but some handguns can fire if they hit the ground.

<snip>


http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/13/opinion/13kristof.html?oref=login&n=Top%2fOpinion%2fEditorials%20and%20Op%2dEd%2fOp%2dEd%2fColumnists%2fNicholas%20D%20Kristof

[TyObe]

18. Still a little flawed

Of so called "accidental discharges" I'd wager that mechanical malfunctions account for a very small percentage. Most "accidental discharges" are actually "negligent disharges."

One of the snipped paragraphs...
Similar steps are feasible in the world of guns.

"You can tell whether a camera is loaded by looking at it, and you should be able to tell whether a gun is loaded by looking at it," said David Hemenway, director of the Harvard Injury Control Research Center. Professor Hemenway has written "Private Guns, Public Health," a brilliant and clear-eyed primer for the country.

I can tell you at an instant if ANY firearm is loaded. It's a LOADED question: they all are. Negligent discharges almost never happend with loaded guns; only with "unloaded" ones. The problem isn't a lack of safety features. It's a lack of training. The sad fact is that the only training most kids and some adults have comes from Hollywood. All the interlocks in the world are of little match for an untrained, curious kid with 10 minutes to burn.

[BiggJawn]

20. More than a little flawed....

for every example Kristof gave, I bet I could take the stated device and kill someone with it.

So the Chainsaw's got safety features? I can still split you like a melon with one. At least it won't "kick back" and slash me when it hits the steel pins in your lumbar region...

Cars are safe? Well, then it should be OK for me to drive one on the sidewalk, right? Wrong.

Refrigerators? What happens if I duck-tape the door shut with you inside?

I guess a gun that won't fire must be the Uber-Lefty's ultimate masturbation dream or something. also guess somebody forgot that is a weapon's intended purpose, to accurately punch holes in "stuff" from a distance.

[Doomsayer13]

23. I agree in the end

youth gun violence does not stem from the existance of guns, but the lack of respect for them. If you are taught to respect firearms at a young age, I think that accidents are much less likely to occur.

[auburngrad82]

15. I say drop it. You can't win on gun control

By dropping the subject you remove a very powerful wedge issue that the GOP uses to rile up the freedom lovin' armed militia types that typically vote for the GOP simply because they are against gun control.

I say tell 'em you don't care if they own guns. Let them have all the guns they want. I don't own any and I'm not about to start buying them now, so I don't support the businesses that get rich over spreading fear of gun control laws and government disarmament programs.

As an added bonus, when their kids accidently shoot themselves because they're too dumb to want trigger locks they lose a potential voter.

Seriously, most of my family are what I would call "responsible" gun owners. Some of them vote GOP solely on the gun issue. Drop the issue and you disarm the GOP.

[Blue_Tires]

17. lol

"I say tell 'em you don't care if they own guns. Let them have all the guns they want. I don't own any and I'm not about to start buying them now, so I don't support the businesses that get rich over spreading fear of gun control laws and government disarmament programs.

As an added bonus, when their kids accidently shoot themselves because they're too dumb to want trigger locks they lose a potential voter."


i agree...let people have all the guns they want (may even be a little natural selection in the process, like the harley riders that refuse to wear any helmets)

[auburngrad82]

22. The Onion had a great article one time

I think it was "Eight-year old practices his Second Amendment Right to Shoot Himself"

The Onion is funny but sometimes very accurate in their viewpoints.

[Mike L]

16. Drop it-- definitely.

[derby378]

19. Drop the AWB altogether

It's the only hope we have to win over Southern states in 2008.

[Jack_DeLeon]

24. w00t...

I agree, gun control is mostly pointless.

[Boosterman]

25. Hmmm

Not any real dissenting opinions. Thats cool. I hope the leaders of the Democratic Party are of the same mind. The reason I brought it up was I used to be of the "ban em all" mindset. I got into an argument on another board about it and got soundly trashed using the Democratic talking points. After some research (mainly papers written by the founding fathers) I was reluctantly forced to admit I was wrong. Edited to add....whats the gungeoun?